Normal people. People who have never played NS2. Will tear their hair out playing aliens. Or.. they'll simply play marines. Skulk bite is NOT fine in the current state of the game. It'd be fine if skulks had more hp. It'd be fine if it did more damage. It'd be fine if something else with the skulk was changed.
With the skulks current situation, the bitting is not fine.
Normal people won't enjoy it in the current state (after the initial, omg this is awesome, i have mouth-cam, im walking up walls).
When I play marine, and a skulk kills me, I'm fine with it 99% of the time. When I play skulk and a marine kills me, 50% of the time it annoys me.
The people who say its fine, from what I can see, like a "hard, competitive game, that requires skill". Which is great! But you can go play that game with your other skilled friends. Regular folks would like for the skulk bit to be modified, or, the skulk himself in another way that would make him more enjoyable.
The worse though, is end-game skulk, when he's against level 3 arms/weapons marine is just effing sad. If you join a game where the marines are fully upgraded, has a marine. It's cool. If you join a game as an alien. You just stand no chance. Which is retarded game design.
Ever notice how aliens have worse kill/death rations than marines. As an alien, you die more than marines (I'm excluding super skilled players, you guys would be fine fighting has a toothless skulk or gunless marine). No one enjoys dying. Why is it that one side dies a lot more than the other? I would really like to see stats on this.
I think the skulk bite range is a bit iffy together with the poor collision system and damage knockback. Next patch it might be much better with the marines not launching everywhere from a bite and actually properly colliding into them instead of going through.
I just hope that doesn't create the effect of your speed dropping exactly zero when you collide if the marine is running away. That means you'd have to build up some speed again to catch up, which is silly.
Found another thing today regarding knockback and was really disappointed.
As alien, I play most of the time as skulk or gorge. Not because I don't know how to evolve, but because i actually lack skill to play as lerk or fade (even with onos i suck most of the times).
So, i'm better as skulk and gorge than with others. Usually my k/d is between 1:1 and 1:2 for skulk. I'm coming from ns1, to complete the story.
So, today was in a game. I remember only there was an exertus clanner, good player. I was doing also a good game, this time was over (something like 14:6). Map was summit. So, i rushed one base and there was a player afk. How I know? Because was still, nothing, even when the others were shooting. approached, stopped (as it was stupid to move) and bited. Result? he jumped 4 mt away. I was shocked. Again, was still, i approached and bited. This time, another jump and again 4mt away.
took several seconds to kill an afk player. nice.
This is frustrating. Not when you encounter a skilled player (like the exertus one, really, and like others i play with and against) and he kills you because it's more skilled. it's frustrating when players are so weak that need these kind of cheats to play against regular players. In a pub game.
Hope knockback will be tweaked and uwe will do something to adress this insane marine jumping.
If you don't need to be skilled to jump 4mt from the skulk, but you need only a cheat...
Anyone here that actually cares about this issue should go play a game like age of chivalry or pirates vikings and knights II (both half life 2 mods) and compare the melee combat in those games to trying to track a marine as a skulk in NS2. Those games do it right. In NS2 everything feels so slippery and jittery thats its incredibly easy to slip past a marine when instead all you wanted to do was move a bit closer to him. Go ahead, go try one of those games out and compare.
I honestly think everyones issue isn't so much balance related as it is technical related. There needs to be a change with the fundamental movement mechanics in the game. Perhaps if you're looking directly at a marine as an alien and hold W you will NOT slip past him as long as you're aiming directly at him. That way the two essential skills (tracking and movement) don't directly conflict with eachother as much as a skulk.
In laymen's terms, what is it Half Life 2 (and its mods of course) have that makes everything feel solid and real? Because I played Pirates Vikings & Knights II and had heaps of fun playing melee combat so it can work brilliantly and not be a laggy spam fest brawl.
AoC combat is *fairly* slow, and you don't have ninja marines who can vanish off your screen in 0.1 seconds by doing a 180* degree jump over you head while shooting you.
<!--quoteo(post=1991975:date=Oct 15 2012, 05:22 PM:name=Reeke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reeke @ Oct 15 2012, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->AoC combat is *fairly* slow, and you don't have ninja marines who can vanish off your screen in 0.1 seconds by doing a 180* degree jump over you head while shooting you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay then so one way to bring NS2 more in line with the smoothness of those other games is to limit marine movement. Dont reeeaaally think thats gonna happen but at least we're putting it out there. Everyone would sooner like to see skulks buffed in a way no one has thought of yet.
a marine shouldn't be able to jump spam after being bitten --- make marines grounded after being bitten for ~2seconds or something similar, as the jump spamming and the lack of a decent hitbox/netcode makes the game a bit of a joke at the moment.
<!--quoteo(post=1991983:date=Oct 15 2012, 03:59 PM:name=Scubbo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scubbo @ Oct 15 2012, 03:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a marine shouldn't be able to jump spam after being bitten --- make marines grounded after being bitten for ~2seconds or something similar, as the jump spamming and the lack of a decent hitbox/netcode makes the game a bit of a joke at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think something pretty critical that isn't talked about much in skulk/marine combat is the model animations.
Because of the "tired" cooldown, jump by itself isn't as big of a deal IMO as is the impact of the model animation with the legs going up.
In my experience, 80%+ of the skulk bites are on the waist/legs. When you jump, the legs retract a bit due to the jumping animation, and it seems to make marines much harder to hit. I'm not sure if the hitbox actually retracts along with the legs or if it's just the model though; haven't tested that.
If the hitbox moves/retracts with the legs, marines should be well-benefited by e.g. jumping scripts even if the actual jump distance is 0.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay then so one way to bring NS2 more in line with the smoothness of those other games is to limit marine movement. Dont reeeaaally think thats gonna happen but at least we're putting it out there. Everyone would sooner like to see skulks buffed in a way no one has thought of yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm OK with the current marine movement. I'm in the camp that believes it's the skulk itself that needs better movement.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a marine shouldn't be able to jump spam after being bitten --- make marines grounded after being bitten for ~2seconds or something similar, as the jump spamming and the lack of a decent hitbox/netcode makes the game a bit of a joke at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A slight slowdown when bitten could be interesting, though 2 seconds is far, far too long. 0.5 seconds would be enough to make a difference, then it could be reduced with each armour upgrade the marines get.
I have to agree with Uh-oh. The skulk bite is not right with this build. I will say it was better in 222 but went back to almost as bad as 221 in this current build. It is just not hitting like it should.
By the way Uh-oh: even the extremely skilled clan players do much worse as aliens in 223 than they do as marines. If the skill levels are even on each team right now the marines will get more kills.
<!--quoteo(post=1992107:date=Oct 15 2012, 11:26 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Oct 15 2012, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the skill levels are even on each team right now the marines will get more kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For this, I've heard that aliens die more then marines in games...and that's just the way the game plays, so is this a valid complaint? Asking because I truly have no idea.
The knockback shouldnt be removed, but made to work like it does in ns 3.2 . The current implementation is just bad, thats all. I like the feedback it gave both to the alien hitting the marine, and the marine himself. Right now you dont really notice if you hit the marine at all. With the ns1 knockback it was very apparent. Same with marines, you barely notice a lifeform hitting you, especially if using silence. With the knockback it instantly becomes apparent when hits connect, and it allows marines to use the knockback to gain a little bit of distance when done properly (like the current implementation, but not nearly as much though).
It also makes close combat bit more predictable/less random feeling as the knockback always slows/dictates the marines movement a bit.
I don't agree with you, elmo. if i, as skulk, i bite you with silence, it should be rewarded as you didn't notice i came. it's fair (and I died a lot from silenced skulks). I don't understand why a worse player (the one that got bited) should be helped. The skulk don't get an extra speed if the are shot.
I don't understand also why it is more predictable. Yesterday I did a "ballet" with a marine, that lasted many seconds (and for many I mean from 10 to 15...) even skill, probably. at least in jumping.
<!--quoteo(post=1992288:date=Oct 16 2012, 04:41 PM:name=Pheus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pheus @ Oct 16 2012, 04:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the skulk needs to accelerate much faster so that it doesn't feel like you're walking on ice<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Running around marines feels like you're a bar of soap. And when you drop that soap, you know what those hunky marines are gonna do.
I haven't noticed any problems with bite. It's harder to hit, but I'm not missing where I shouldn't miss.
Just tune the skulk accel / decel and it should work wonders. I mean, hitting ground after leap completely nullifies the speed you got from leap, dunnit? Wth is up with that. :p
Yes, of course you are rewarded as silence skulk when you can sneak up close undetected. Its not really about helping anyone, but just delivering feedback to both players when a hit connects.
If you fought a marine for 10-15 seconds at close range, your hits didnt connect and thus the knockback didnt obviously trigger - the marine was able to move freely without you being able to dictate it with the knockback.
All im saying is that both ns1 and ns2 have similiar knockback mechanic, but the ns1 implementation worked a lot better.
Normal people. People who have never played NS2. Will tear their hair out playing aliens. Or.. they'll simply play marines. Skulk bite is NOT fine in the current state of the game. It'd be fine if skulks had more hp. It'd be fine if it did more damage. It'd be fine if something else with the skulk was changed.
With the skulks current situation, the bitting is not fine.
Normal people won't enjoy it in the current state (after the initial, omg this is awesome, i have mouth-cam, im walking up walls).
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you nailed the problem with that statement. i think bite works fine, but only for experienced players. as you wrote, new players, who probably never played before a first person game featuring melee combat, will get insanely frustrated. thats something we need to address before 1.0, without lowering the skill ceiling (should be increased...)
seems to be that the skulk bite should be wide close to the skulk and narrow from from it.
That way it is very easy to bite from up close, and hard to bite from further away. Good players are rewarded because they can land bites from further away, new players can still land bites upclose.
That would work great if you combined it with some tutorial or loading screen tips to ambush marines instead of rushing them as Skulk. Ambushing + improved close range bite capabilities = easy kill on everyone who isn't well versed in Marine dodging, which should hold us through the newbie flood on release.
Smaller skulk model like in NS 1 will make skulk play more forgiving for new players without lowering the skill ceiling. That way both new and experienced players alike will enjoy playing the skulks. That and better movement mechanics overall.
Smaller models make it less punishing to zerg-rush into Marine packs, which is not how the skulk is supposed to be played at median skill level. Charging people with guns using mediocre evasive technique <i>should</i> get you killed.
By giving the skulk better movement or smaller size, you're giving the skulk a chance to get a few more bites in before getting killed. The smaller size would also help with ambushing since you never really know if your leg or ass is sticking out of the corner you're hiding in. This is especially the case in NS2, the position of your body is never known due to the more complex geometry used in walls and ceilings.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Smaller models make it less punishing to zerg-rush into Marine packs,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hardly. Unless you will claim that these zerg rushes were super effective against marines in NS 1 ? Zerg packs are still easier targets than sole evading skulks, but marines will have to be able to aim a little better than they do currently. (Which for most players is no problem, compared to how much more difficult skulk biting is)
Well, this isn't NS 1, but smaller models weren't a problem in NS 1 and skulks had way better movement mechanics there. I don't see how that is not relevant to refute your claim.
Comments
Normal people. People who have never played NS2. Will tear their hair out playing aliens. Or.. they'll simply play marines.
Skulk bite is NOT fine in the current state of the game.
It'd be fine if skulks had more hp. It'd be fine if it did more damage. It'd be fine if something else with the skulk was changed.
With the skulks current situation, the bitting is not fine.
Normal people won't enjoy it in the current state (after the initial, omg this is awesome, i have mouth-cam, im walking up walls).
When I play marine, and a skulk kills me, I'm fine with it 99% of the time.
When I play skulk and a marine kills me, 50% of the time it annoys me.
The people who say its fine, from what I can see, like a "hard, competitive game, that requires skill". Which is great!
But you can go play that game with your other skilled friends.
Regular folks would like for the skulk bit to be modified, or, the skulk himself in another way that would make him more enjoyable.
The worse though, is end-game skulk, when he's against level 3 arms/weapons marine is just effing sad.
If you join a game where the marines are fully upgraded, has a marine. It's cool. If you join a game as an alien. You just stand no chance.
Which is retarded game design.
Ever notice how aliens have worse kill/death rations than marines.
As an alien, you die more than marines (I'm excluding super skilled players, you guys would be fine fighting has a toothless skulk or gunless marine).
No one enjoys dying. Why is it that one side dies a lot more than the other? I would really like to see stats on this.
I just hope that doesn't create the effect of your speed dropping exactly zero when you collide if the marine is running away. That means you'd have to build up some speed again to catch up, which is silly.
As alien, I play most of the time as skulk or gorge. Not because I don't know how to evolve, but because i actually lack skill to play as lerk or fade (even with onos i suck most of the times).
So, i'm better as skulk and gorge than with others. Usually my k/d is between 1:1 and 1:2 for skulk. I'm coming from ns1, to complete the story.
So, today was in a game. I remember only there was an exertus clanner, good player.
I was doing also a good game, this time was over (something like 14:6). Map was summit.
So, i rushed one base and there was a player afk. How I know? Because was still, nothing, even when the others were shooting.
approached, stopped (as it was stupid to move) and bited.
Result? he jumped 4 mt away.
I was shocked.
Again, was still, i approached and bited. This time, another jump and again 4mt away.
took several seconds to kill an afk player. nice.
This is frustrating. Not when you encounter a skilled player (like the exertus one, really, and like others i play with and against) and he kills you because it's more skilled. it's frustrating when players are so weak that need these kind of cheats to play against regular players. In a pub game.
Hope knockback will be tweaked and uwe will do something to adress this insane marine jumping.
If you don't need to be skilled to jump 4mt from the skulk, but you need only a cheat...
I honestly think everyones issue isn't so much balance related as it is technical related. There needs to be a change with the fundamental movement mechanics in the game. Perhaps if you're looking directly at a marine as an alien and hold W you will NOT slip past him as long as you're aiming directly at him. That way the two essential skills (tracking and movement) don't directly conflict with eachother as much as a skulk.
Okay then so one way to bring NS2 more in line with the smoothness of those other games is to limit marine movement. Dont reeeaaally think thats gonna happen but at least we're putting it out there. Everyone would sooner like to see skulks buffed in a way no one has thought of yet.
I think something pretty critical that isn't talked about much in skulk/marine combat is the model animations.
Because of the "tired" cooldown, jump by itself isn't as big of a deal IMO as is the impact of the model animation with the legs going up.
In my experience, 80%+ of the skulk bites are on the waist/legs. When you jump, the legs retract a bit due to the jumping animation, and it seems to make marines much harder to hit. I'm not sure if the hitbox actually retracts along with the legs or if it's just the model though; haven't tested that.
If the hitbox moves/retracts with the legs, marines should be well-benefited by e.g. jumping scripts even if the actual jump distance is 0.
I'm OK with the current marine movement. I'm in the camp that believes it's the skulk itself that needs better movement.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a marine shouldn't be able to jump spam after being bitten --- make marines grounded after being bitten for ~2seconds or something similar, as the jump spamming and the lack of a decent hitbox/netcode makes the game a bit of a joke at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A slight slowdown when bitten could be interesting, though 2 seconds is far, far too long. 0.5 seconds would be enough to make a difference, then it could be reduced with each armour upgrade the marines get.
For this, I've heard that aliens die more then marines in games...and that's just the way the game plays, so is this a valid complaint? Asking because I truly have no idea.
It also makes close combat bit more predictable/less random feeling as the knockback always slows/dictates the marines movement a bit.
if i, as skulk, i bite you with silence, it should be rewarded as you didn't notice i came. it's fair (and I died a lot from silenced skulks). I don't understand why a worse player (the one that got bited) should be helped. The skulk don't get an extra speed if the are shot.
I don't understand also why it is more predictable. Yesterday I did a "ballet" with a marine, that lasted many seconds (and for many I mean from 10 to 15...) even skill, probably. at least in jumping.
This. Running around marines feels like you're a bar of soap. And when you drop that soap, you know what those hunky marines are gonna do.
I haven't noticed any problems with bite. It's harder to hit, but I'm not missing where I shouldn't miss.
Just tune the skulk accel / decel and it should work wonders. I mean, hitting ground after leap completely nullifies the speed you got from leap, dunnit? Wth is up with that. :p
If you fought a marine for 10-15 seconds at close range, your hits didnt connect and thus the knockback didnt obviously trigger - the marine was able to move freely without you being able to dictate it with the knockback.
All im saying is that both ns1 and ns2 have similiar knockback mechanic, but the ns1 implementation worked a lot better.
Normal people. People who have never played NS2. Will tear their hair out playing aliens. Or.. they'll simply play marines.
Skulk bite is NOT fine in the current state of the game.
It'd be fine if skulks had more hp. It'd be fine if it did more damage. It'd be fine if something else with the skulk was changed.
With the skulks current situation, the bitting is not fine.
Normal people won't enjoy it in the current state (after the initial, omg this is awesome, i have mouth-cam, im walking up walls).
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you nailed the problem with that statement. i think bite works fine, but only for experienced players. as you wrote, new players, who probably never played before a first person game featuring melee combat, will get insanely frustrated. thats something we need to address before 1.0, without lowering the skill ceiling (should be increased...)
That way it is very easy to bite from up close, and hard to bite from further away. Good players are rewarded because they can land bites from further away, new players can still land bites upclose.
Hardly. Unless you will claim that these zerg rushes were super effective against marines in NS 1 ? Zerg packs are still easier targets than sole evading skulks, but marines will have to be able to aim a little better than they do currently. (Which for most players is no problem, compared to how much more difficult skulk biting is)