<!--quoteo(post=1992409:date=Oct 16 2012, 01:41 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Oct 16 2012, 01:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992409"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you nailed the problem with that statement. i think bite works fine, but only for experienced players. as you wrote, new players, who probably never played before a first person game featuring melee combat, will get insanely frustrated. thats something we need to address before 1.0, without lowering the skill ceiling (should be increased...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wait wait you mean that players will get frustrated with a game where you cant hide behind a waist high concrete block and wait for the screen to stop flashing red?! :O
its sad when "challenging" is a no no
lets at least see if they fix collision and bite knockback in this next patch, prolly wont but lets at least see
<!--quoteo(post=1992409:date=Oct 16 2012, 08:41 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Oct 16 2012, 08:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992409"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you nailed the problem with that statement. i think bite works fine, but only for experienced players. as you wrote, new players, who probably never played before a first person game featuring melee combat, will get insanely frustrated. thats something we need to address before 1.0, without lowering the skill ceiling (should be increased...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even competitive players look like complete noobs when trying to bite marines. Watching the GURU tournament it was plain to see that they basically close their eyes, hold down mouse 1, and hope for the best, even though they miss a good 50-70%. It really doesn't look good.
I would say the current collisions contribute just as much, if not more, to the...inconsistencies/awkwardness in skulk bite. I would be curious to see if collisions were fixed and the melee cones remain the same, if it would still be the problem it is right now.
I've seen some pretty stupid good skulks. I mean it's always possible they were cheating in some way, but they rarely if ever missed. So I guess it's not impossible just requires more skill. I think they change the bite mechanic back and forth just so that people will get better at skulks by much more when they change it back. Like after having such a pain in the ass time trying to bite if they widen the cone again it'll probably be easy as hell to do it again.
<!--quoteo(post=1992428:date=Oct 16 2012, 12:02 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 16 2012, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wait wait you mean that players will get frustrated with a game where you cant hide behind a waist high concrete block and wait for the screen to stop flashing red?! :O
its sad when "challenging" is a no no<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No... skulk isn't "challenging" when you are a newbie. It is frustrating... when you go up to bite a marine and he jumps through you. It's frustrating when you bite a marine and it does no damage even though you're clipping into his body and he's directly on your screen. It's frustrating when he jumps on your head, gets knocked 10 ft up into the ceiling, and chomping his feet does no damage.
It's frustrating for me too, watching people on pubs when all I can do is offer feeble advice like "don't run on the floor" and "don't hold down m1 to attack" knowing that none of those address the core issue that they're having with the game.
The difficulty level with skulk is currently entirely bound up in unintuitive mechanics that will frustrate people without a deep understanding of the game. The teeth cover the whole screen. So should bite. And you should be rewarded for managing to get within melee range instead of praying that the marine doesn't know how to tap space bar.
Plus the problem for newbies is that even though skulk is frustrating, the other lifeforms aren't better. Gorge, lerk, fade and onos will all die rapidly to higher skill players, leaving the newbie as a skulk again before he rage quits because his bites aren't connecting.
Balance really really needs to be a secondary consideration behind fun here. Who cares if the game is balanced if no one is playing it?
<!--quoteo(post=1992471:date=Oct 16 2012, 05:13 PM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Oct 16 2012, 05:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The teeth cover the whole screen. So should bite. And you should be rewarded for managing to get within melee range instead of praying that the marine doesn't know how to tap space bar.
Plus the problem for newbies is that even though skulk is frustrating, the other lifeforms aren't better. Gorge, lerk, fade and onos will all die rapidly to higher skill players, leaving the newbie as a skulk again before he rage quits because his bites aren't connecting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT.
I did a listen server test on this last build (223 I think?), and the skulk bite cone was miniscule, barely any bigger than the aiming dot on some of the marine weapons. I was right on top of the marine and would miss the bite if the exact center wasn't on the model body. I was missing through armpits and elbow/knee crooks.
Something needs to be done to make skulk feel awesome again. Coming from someone who used to love skulk play I really can't stand it anymore. I have much more fun playing as lerk now, even more than fade and Onos.
The main issue is that for newer players, bite is not a precision weapon. They just spam it, and they might not ever learn differently. Simply getting into melee range is a skill curve in and of itself, making the aiming difficult is too much for them.
What if bite had a large hitbox but did reduced damage on an indirect hit?
The air bounce in 223 is making it MUCH worse than it was IMO. I think people should reserve judgment until the air-bounce is fixed. Since 223 playing aliens altogether has become very painful.
<!--quoteo(post=1992493:date=Oct 16 2012, 04:49 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Oct 16 2012, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992493"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The main issue is that for newer players, bite is not a precision weapon. They just spam it, and they might not ever learn differently. Simply getting into melee range is a skill curve in and of itself, making the aiming difficult is too much for them.
What if bite had a large hitbox but did reduced damage on an indirect hit?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think we need bite damage to scale down any lower than it is. I'd much prefer an increase in accuracy be linked to an increase in distance from skulk that the attack will hit, as others have proposed.
Somewhat off-topic, what if we rescaled all the NS1 damage so it took longer for people to die? Skulks would soak more bullets, but would require more bites to land.
<!--quoteo(post=1992496:date=Oct 16 2012, 04:51 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 16 2012, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992496"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think we need bite damage to scale down any lower than it is. I'd much prefer an increase in accuracy be linked to an increase in distance from skulk that the attack will hit, as others have proposed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's how it should work anyway IMO, but I don't think that helps this problem at all. Staying really close to the marine is hard too. New players need to be able to bite from the normal distance, and I think the ability to score a "glancing blow" would help them to still accomplish something when their accuracy isn't great. It's better than missing entirely.
<!--quoteo(post=1992521:date=Oct 16 2012, 03:00 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Oct 16 2012, 03:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's how it should work anyway IMO, but I don't think that helps this problem at all. Staying really close to the marine is hard too. New players need to be able to bite from the normal distance, and I think the ability to score a "glancing blow" would help them to still accomplish something when their accuracy isn't great. It's better than missing entirely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's actually an interesting idea, and really not that hard to implement. Would just require two hit cones, the smaller one does 20 damage and the larger one does 15. If you hit with the smaller one you'll also be hitting with the larger one and that would be worth a total of 35. Hit with just the larger cone and you only do 15, sounds like a good idea to me.
I'd also like to point out that there is little to no feedback on what hits do land.
Some sort of better hit indication would go a long way to addressing the bite problem for newbies. It could be audio or visual. The current ones are woefully inadequate for aliens compared to the flashing red crosshair for marines.
Something subtle like the aliens teeth going red with blood could be appropriate as thats not cluttering up the screen with blood splashs as they are already on the screen.
I did a listen server test on this last build (223 I think?), and the skulk bite cone was miniscule, barely any bigger than the aiming dot on some of the marine weapons. I was right on top of the marine and would miss the bite if the exact center wasn't on the model body. I was missing through armpits and elbow/knee crooks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow that is pretty bad. I dont get what is so hard about getting bite set up properly? the teeth cover the whole screen if your close enough to bite and your target is on screen it should get it.
Otherwise remove all of the skulks teeth except for the middle 2.
I did a listen server test on this last build (223 I think?), and the skulk bite cone was miniscule, barely any bigger than the aiming dot on some of the marine weapons. I was right on top of the marine and would miss the bite if the exact center wasn't on the model body. I was missing through armpits and elbow/knee crooks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, you messed up.
When spawning marines if you spawn them while you're an alien they count as friendlies and the bite cone for friendly fire is <b>ten times smaller</b> then the usual one. Only spawn marines while playing as marine then F4 and proceed with your tests.
Found this out the hard way a few patches ago when I was baffled about the seemingly minuscule cone.
<!--quoteo(post=1992570:date=Oct 17 2012, 11:07 AM:name=koewi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (koewi @ Oct 17 2012, 11:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->high knockback on bites will be fixed in 224 it was a bug and 3 times higher then intended infos from the Q&A held today<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3 times higher? so theres still a knockback intended....phail. Will wait for next patch.
<!--quoteo(post=1992591:date=Oct 17 2012, 12:04 PM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Oct 17 2012, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992591"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3 times higher? so theres still a knockback intended....phail. Will wait for next patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1992604:date=Oct 17 2012, 12:29 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Oct 17 2012, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no its removed in 224<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah the Q&A was a tad ambiguous (ie saying it was 3 times what it was meant to be) but indicated it was removed in next patch instead if fixed.
It needs removal and thats what it sounds like they are doing....just hope they dont try to bring it back post 1.0
i think the effect will stay, devided with 3 :) nothing special in my opinion, cause im used to a skulkbiteknockback from ns1 times ... the bite in ns1 got a knockback too ... im pretty sure at least no discussion that the knockback in 223 was ridiculous
Comments
wait wait you mean that players will get frustrated with a game where you cant hide behind a waist high concrete block and wait for the screen to stop flashing red?! :O
its sad when "challenging" is a no no
lets at least see if they fix collision and bite knockback in this next patch, prolly wont but lets at least see
Even competitive players look like complete noobs when trying to bite marines. Watching the GURU tournament it was plain to see that they basically close their eyes, hold down mouse 1, and hope for the best, even though they miss a good 50-70%. It really doesn't look good.
its sad when "challenging" is a no no<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No... skulk isn't "challenging" when you are a newbie. It is frustrating... when you go up to bite a marine and he jumps through you. It's frustrating when you bite a marine and it does no damage even though you're clipping into his body and he's directly on your screen. It's frustrating when he jumps on your head, gets knocked 10 ft up into the ceiling, and chomping his feet does no damage.
It's frustrating for me too, watching people on pubs when all I can do is offer feeble advice like "don't run on the floor" and "don't hold down m1 to attack" knowing that none of those address the core issue that they're having with the game.
The difficulty level with skulk is currently entirely bound up in unintuitive mechanics that will frustrate people without a deep understanding of the game. The teeth cover the whole screen. So should bite. And you should be rewarded for managing to get within melee range instead of praying that the marine doesn't know how to tap space bar.
Plus the problem for newbies is that even though skulk is frustrating, the other lifeforms aren't better. Gorge, lerk, fade and onos will all die rapidly to higher skill players, leaving the newbie as a skulk again before he rage quits because his bites aren't connecting.
Balance really really needs to be a secondary consideration behind fun here. Who cares if the game is balanced if no one is playing it?
Plus the problem for newbies is that even though skulk is frustrating, the other lifeforms aren't better. Gorge, lerk, fade and onos will all die rapidly to higher skill players, leaving the newbie as a skulk again before he rage quits because his bites aren't connecting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT.
I did a listen server test on this last build (223 I think?), and the skulk bite cone was miniscule, barely any bigger than the aiming dot on some of the marine weapons. I was right on top of the marine and would miss the bite if the exact center wasn't on the model body. I was missing through armpits and elbow/knee crooks.
What if bite had a large hitbox but did reduced damage on an indirect hit?
What if bite had a large hitbox but did reduced damage on an indirect hit?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think we need bite damage to scale down any lower than it is. I'd much prefer an increase in accuracy be linked to an increase in distance from skulk that the attack will hit, as others have proposed.
Interesting thought experiment on game design....
That's how it should work anyway IMO, but I don't think that helps this problem at all. Staying really close to the marine is hard too. New players need to be able to bite from the normal distance, and I think the ability to score a "glancing blow" would help them to still accomplish something when their accuracy isn't great. It's better than missing entirely.
That's actually an interesting idea, and really not that hard to implement. Would just require two hit cones, the smaller one does 20 damage and the larger one does 15. If you hit with the smaller one you'll also be hitting with the larger one and that would be worth a total of 35. Hit with just the larger cone and you only do 15, sounds like a good idea to me.
I'd also like to point out that there is little to no feedback on what hits do land.
Some sort of better hit indication would go a long way to addressing the bite problem for newbies. It could be audio or visual. The current ones are woefully inadequate for aliens compared to the flashing red crosshair for marines.
Something subtle like the aliens teeth going red with blood could be appropriate as thats not cluttering up the screen with blood splashs as they are already on the screen.
I did a listen server test on this last build (223 I think?), and the skulk bite cone was miniscule, barely any bigger than the aiming dot on some of the marine weapons. I was right on top of the marine and would miss the bite if the exact center wasn't on the model body. I was missing through armpits and elbow/knee crooks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow that is pretty bad. I dont get what is so hard about getting bite set up properly? the teeth cover the whole screen if your close enough to bite and your target is on screen it should get it.
Otherwise remove all of the skulks teeth except for the middle 2.
I did a listen server test on this last build (223 I think?), and the skulk bite cone was miniscule, barely any bigger than the aiming dot on some of the marine weapons. I was right on top of the marine and would miss the bite if the exact center wasn't on the model body. I was missing through armpits and elbow/knee crooks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, you messed up.
When spawning marines if you spawn them while you're an alien they count as friendlies and the bite cone for friendly fire is <b>ten times smaller</b> then the usual one.
Only spawn marines while playing as marine then F4 and proceed with your tests.
Found this out the hard way a few patches ago when I was baffled about the seemingly minuscule cone.
it was a bug and 3 times higher then intended
infos from the Q&A held today
it was a bug and 3 times higher then intended
infos from the Q&A held today<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3 times higher? so theres still a knockback intended....phail. Will wait for next patch.
no its removed in 224
Yeah the Q&A was a tad ambiguous (ie saying it was 3 times what it was meant to be) but indicated it was removed in next patch instead if fixed.
It needs removal and thats what it sounds like they are doing....just hope they dont try to bring it back post 1.0
nothing special in my opinion, cause im used to a skulkbiteknockback from ns1 times ... the bite in ns1 got a knockback too ... im pretty sure at least
no discussion that the knockback in 223 was ridiculous
you'll also see less 'dance off' actions too if you do this
make it match current welder range