<!--quoteo(post=1988800:date=Oct 9 2012, 11:29 AM:name=KaptajnKLO)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaptajnKLO @ Oct 9 2012, 11:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988800"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you have 2 players who are both 25-5 on a server with average players and they are essentially dominating everyone, then I can see how it can be percieved as stacking even though it is only two guys. I don't mind two very good players on one team as long as the opposing team also have some good players and isn't full of average and bad players.
Also if I see that there are a number of comp players on a server I will wait to join a team to see if they are going to stack one of the teams. If they do stack one team then I will find another server. It is just no fun when you know the results beforehand; if I join the stacked team I will be on the winning team and if I join the opposing team then my team will be dominated. I just don't understand why anyone would find that fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the onus (see what I did there?) of your gameplay experience falls on me, and not the 22 other people in the server? Does that seem right to you?
I'm not trying to sound elitist. I certainly don't want to ruin anyone's game experience. But I can't control the experience you have. Stacked teams can be annoying, but it doesn't justify placing the burden of your enjoyment onto a select group of players. Suddenly I cant just play the game anymore. Now I have to take into consideration whether or not my goofing around is going to negatively impact someone else's experience.
But I've already said that I, and most of the Nexzil Team, do this already. We like playing against each other, and with each other, but when we're clearly stacking things, we handicap ourselves fairly severely. We do it because we want to play without ruining someone else's experience, and we do it because we want to practice certain things, like dodging, shooting, ambushing etc, without trying being "that guy" who just pubstomps all the time.
I understand it can be frustrating, but just appreciate that we're actually going out of our way to take your gaming experience into consideration. Hell, if you ask nicely, most of us will stop what we're doing and help you figure stuff out. Hell, if a marine asked me, I'd probably just go meet him somewhere so he could practice shooting me.
We're really nice guys (and gals) once you get to know us. :-/
Peregrinus, the funny thing about that screenshot is that I remember watching Hugh's casts of the past couple tournaments/cups, and between rounds he brings up stats to discuss them. With a competition between two active competitive teams, the teams should be fairly balanced skill-wise, but the scores still wind up looking like that, depending on which team won.
That said, stacking has been an issue in NS1 since forever, and there really isn't any way to fix it automatically. It requires a community's effort and the players themselves to be incentivized somehow.
Playing on the All-In servers, I do encounter a bunch of the Nexzil, Inversion and All-In guys quite often, and with regard to Nexzil specifically, from my experience, they are willing to oppose each other usually. I really appreciate them for doing that, as then people don't see "Oh, that team is going to win, let's all try to join it." I know Virsoul has more than once switched over to our losing team to help us out. As for RedDragon pointing out that you guys self handicap, that's kind of funny, but I guess it introduces another level of fun for you guys. I remember one game where Locklear (I think?) kept suiciding pistol-only against our gorge.
Dont take MBSGriever seriously, basically all of his time playing NS1 was spent trying to get players banned endlessly, arguably raging you and roland was the only thing that kept me playing.
<!--quoteo(post=1988818:date=Oct 9 2012, 06:13 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Oct 9 2012, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the onus (see what I did there?) of your gameplay experience falls on me, and not the 22 other people in the server? Does that seem right to you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the situation I described then yes, the two players have a massive impact on the games played and everything is decided on whether or not they are on the same team or are on seperate teams. To me it seems silly to ask whether it is right to voice my concern over that, since it is so obvious that it is impacting some peoples gameplay experience negatively.
<!--quoteo(post=1988818:date=Oct 9 2012, 06:13 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Oct 9 2012, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not trying to sound elitist. I certainly don't want to ruin anyone's game experience. But I can't control the experience you have. Stacked teams can be annoying, but it doesn't justify placing the burden of your enjoyment onto a select group of players. Suddenly I cant just play the game anymore. Now I have to take into consideration whether or not my goofing around is going to negatively impact someone else's experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I don't complain about stacked teams when I play. I will maybe ask if we can get some fair teams and my request will usually be ignored... as far as I can recall only on the HBZ servers have I experienced rearranging of teams to make them fair. As I said before if I encounter statcked teams for several rounds then I will simply find a different server.
I can't quite fathom how you can say "but it doesn't justify placing the burden of your enjoyment onto a select group of players.", when a team stack of comp players or just really good players will so obviously affect how a round will look like to the point where there is no doubt who will win a minute into the game.
To all the ones crying that they aren't allowed to choose their team, or choose who they play with; no one is telling you what you can and can't do. No one can stop you from joining the team you want to join. Just understand, that when you stack rounds, you kill servers. And when you kill servers, you kill the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1988853:date=Oct 9 2012, 07:54 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 9 2012, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To all the ones crying that they aren't allowed to choose their team, or choose who they play with; no one is telling you what you can and can't do. No one can stop you from joining the team you want to join. Just understand, that when you stack rounds, you kill servers. And when you kill servers, you kill the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Saying it's killing the game is a bit over the top lol. So far switching servers has worked for me and at release there will be even more servers to choose from. Also I would be surprised if there aren't some servers that will pop up that will only allow average players, I'm even considering doing that.
I don't know about you guys but I enjoy getting the ###### beat out of me. A stacked team gives me the opportunity to join the opposite team and learn some valuable plays. There's only ONE solid way to get good at multilayer video games, and that's getting your face stomped into the ground repetitively until every scenario is worked out in your head. When there's no more mistakes to make, you become a "competitive player". Quit looking at these people like GODS, man the ###### up, and get some skill. It took me like 3 months to get as good as I am now and now I AT LEAST pull my own weight every game. It's not right to tell people they cant play with their friends because they're too good together, and if it really does kill servers well then let them realize it on their own.
<!--quoteo(post=1988855:date=Oct 9 2012, 10:08 AM:name=Rambo Swags)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rambo Swags @ Oct 9 2012, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know about you guys but I enjoy getting the ###### beat out of me. A stacked team gives me the opportunity to join the opposite team and learn some valuable plays. There's only ONE solid way to get good at multilayer video games, and that's getting your face stomped into the ground repetitively until every scenario is worked out in your head. When there's no more mistakes to make, you become a "competitive player". Quit looking at these people like GODS, man the ###### up, and get some skill. It took me like 3 months to get as good as I am now and now I AT LEAST pull my own weight every game. It's not right to tell people they cant play with their friends because they're too good together, and if it really does kill servers well then let them realize it on their own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
It reminds me of when we had gorgeous and rant on our server, and people were complaining about them playing together. They have as much right to play with their friends, as anyone else does. They are not responsible for ensureing that you enjoy your gaming experience. Gorgeous and rant even voted random when they joined the server, and people who hadnt voted were still complaining, gorgeous actually had to type to them to convince em to vote random. I ask you, what more could they have done?
Nexzil dont really stack by the way. At least not that ive seen.
Just a thought.. Had a guy who will remain nameless play in a server.. complained about the commander so much he had the current commander kicked from the chair and then when nobody went into command afterwards he jumped in and complained that someone else needed to command as he was "too valuable" a player to be commanding.. This is a guy who is known to go 5000-4 ratio (a slight exaggeration). We lost the game, and he raged. I'm not really sure where I was going with this, just a funny anecdote.
<!--quoteo(post=1988855:date=Oct 9 2012, 08:08 PM:name=Rambo Swags)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rambo Swags @ Oct 9 2012, 08:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know about you guys but I enjoy getting the ###### beat out of me. A stacked team gives me the opportunity to join the opposite team and learn some valuable plays. There's only ONE solid way to get good at multilayer video games, and that's getting your face stomped into the ground repetitively until every scenario is worked out in your head. When there's no more mistakes to make, you become a "competitive player". Quit looking at these people like GODS, man the ###### up, and get some skill. It took me like 3 months to get as good as I am now and now I AT LEAST pull my own weight every game. It's not right to tell people they cant play with their friends because they're too good together, and if it really does kill servers well then let them realize it on their own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't learn anything from getting stomped in the face. You get better by playing a lot and by getting tips on how to improve from better players.
Also who said we don't have some skill? I am usually at the top with points and K/D and usually I'm in the middle when there are comp players on a server. Skill has nothing to do with whether you enjoy stacked teams or not.
And I don't see why we shouldn't be able to complain about this issue in a civil manner. We're just bringing it to the comp players attention that some people really don't enjoy team stacking in the hopes that they will actively try to avoid it. We can't force them or anything and we're not trying to do so. <--- Unless I get my own server of course which I might =D
<!--quoteo(post=1988882:date=Oct 9 2012, 03:30 PM:name=KaptajnKLO)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaptajnKLO @ Oct 9 2012, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't learn anything from getting stomped in the face. You get better by playing a lot and by getting tips on how to improve from better players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think its really a combination of the two. I don't think norcal minds me saying this, but when we first started playing scrims with them it was a walk in the park. Now, a couple weeks later and they can actually put real pressure on us. I can't wait to watch them in the tournament this weekend.
<!--quoteo(post=1988865:date=Oct 9 2012, 09:03 PM:name=Hunter.S.T.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hunter.S.T. @ Oct 9 2012, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It reminds me of when we had gorgeous and rant on our server, and people were complaining about them playing together. They have as much right to play with their friends, as anyone else does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whenever someone says "they have a right" I cringe a little. Yes, yes, everyone has their precious rights. Just like the right to complain incessantly if the other pub players don't meet your standards of excellence.
But that's not the point, the point is when two or three "pros" think it's fun to go on a pub stomp that makes the game pretty unfun for the other 14 -18 players on the server. Or if they keep complaining at the more casual players for not fully understanding game strategy or having imperfect aim.
Of course it's their right to do whatever the hell they please and "killing the game" is an obvious hyperbole. But if you're admin on a server and you let this kind of thing go on regularly, don't expect me to play on it.
But all that said I can't say it's something I see happening a great deal on the EU servers (Well, the clan stacking that is. Whinging and raging are pretty common ;))
<!--quoteo(post=1988882:date=Oct 9 2012, 03:30 PM:name=KaptajnKLO)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaptajnKLO @ Oct 9 2012, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't learn anything from getting stomped in the face. You get better by playing a lot and by getting tips on how to improve from better players.
Also who said we don't have some skill? I am usually at the top with points and K/D and usually I'm in the middle when there are comp players on a server. Skill has nothing to do with whether you enjoy stacked teams or not.
And I don't see why we shouldn't be able to complain about this issue in a civil manner. We're just bringing it to the comp players attention that some people really don't enjoy team stacking in the hopes that they will actively try to avoid it. We can't force them or anything and we're not trying to do so. <--- Unless I get my own server of course which I might =D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem I think many of the people frequently accused of stacking have is that there's a lot of whining about it. I've been in games where rantology and I are on the same team, but rantology is commanding and/or gorging where I am fighting. The game can go on 30 minutes and there will still be someone who complains about us stacking. It's a giant whine fest where people are simply blaming someone other than themselves for their loss.
I always vote random when I join a server. If you aren't voting random or actively trying to get others to vote random, then you shouldn't complain about team stacking. You can fix the problem just by saying "hey guys, hit your tilde key and type 'voterandom.'"
There are two types of games from which you learn nothing. Ones in which you are far superior to your opponent, and ones in which you are hopelessly over matched. Learning doesn't come from mistakes, or being beaten, it comes from what happens afterwards; overcoming. You try a new approach, and when it works, you learn. If nothing you try works, you don't learn anything. You could very well try the ideal strategy, but if your opponent is simply far better, it will fail anyway, and you will cross it off as a bad approach.
What's so hard to get. A pro versing a non pro wont gain much skill, A mediocre versing a mediocre will gain a mediocre amount of skill, A scrub verses a pro will receive a significant amount of skill, unless he gets mad and only thinks about the "unfairness" amongst outside sources (teams). And yes I am fully aware that asking for tips and practicing also gives you skill *rolls eyes. But the rawest and quickest lessons you learn can better be gained from playing against people who are better than you there's just no argument. I'm sure that I speak for most people when I say stacked teams do not ruin my entertainment experience and if it does, if stacked teams are REALLY getting you mad and "ruining" your experience....get this..... switch servers, because 9/10 times I see a person or persons complaining about a stacked team its usually only them, and he/they try to speak for everyone else, which is the only thing I find unfair.
<!--quoteo(post=1988894:date=Oct 9 2012, 03:44 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 9 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988894"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are two types of games from which you learn nothing. Ones in which you are far superior to your opponent, and ones in which you are hopelessly over matched. Learning doesn't come from mistakes, or being beaten, it comes from what happens afterwards; overcoming. You try a new approach, and when it works, you learn. If nothing you try works, you don't learn anything. You could very well try the ideal strategy, but if your opponent is simply far better, it will fail anyway, and you will cross it off as a bad approach.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to clarify, when i say learning from mistakes and being beaten, I mean just what you said, Taking in afterwards and crossing off what didn't work. A mistake.
<!--quoteo(post=1988893:date=Oct 9 2012, 09:43 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 9 2012, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem I think many of the people frequently accused of stacking have is that there's a lot of whining about it. I've been in games where rantology and I are on the same team, but rantology is commanding and/or gorging where I am fighting. The game can go on 30 minutes and there will still be someone who complains about us stacking. It's a giant whine fest where people are simply blaming someone other than themselves for their loss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you go back a page you will see that I am talking about people with high K/D, not one guy with a high K/D and then a gorge. The problem to me is when you have a team full of good players with high K/Ds, which in turn means the other team is being dominated. That is not fun for the other team unless Rambo Swags is on that team, then he'll be having the time of his life.
Also how can a team being dominated blame themselves for a loss when there was never any chance of them winning in the first place?
<!--quoteo(post=1988905:date=Oct 9 2012, 09:55 PM:name=Rambo Swags)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rambo Swags @ Oct 9 2012, 09:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's so hard to get. A pro versing a non pro wont gain much skill, A mediocre versing a mediocre will gain a mediocre amount of skill, A scrub verses a pro will receive a significant amount of skill, unless he gets mad and only thinks about the "unfairness" amongst outside sources (teams). And yes I am fully aware that asking for tips and practicing also gives you skill *rolls eyes. But the rawest and quickest lessons you learn can better be gained from playing against people who are better than you there's just no argument. I'm sure that I speak for most people when I say stacked teams do not ruin my entertainment experience and if it does, if stacked teams are REALLY getting you mad and "ruining" your experience....get this..... switch servers, because 9/10 times I see a person or persons complaining about a stacked team its usually only them, and he/they try to speak for everyone else, which is the only thing I find unfair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In every sport throughout time as far as I know a novice will start off against another novice and will face increasingly better opponents as he himself increases in skill by practising and learning from better and more skilled person. You will never see a novice start out by getting destroyed over and over by a far more skilled person, cause that would be demoralising and NOT FUN and would be too steep of a learning curve. You might enjoy it in NS2 but rest assured that most people do not. It's the same in most games, you start out slow and then the difficulty slowly rises. Therefore it is only natural that some people will complain about team stacking, cause suddenly they are facing a brickwall.
<!--quoteo(post=1988924:date=Oct 9 2012, 04:16 PM:name=KaptajnKLO)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaptajnKLO @ Oct 9 2012, 04:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In every sport throughout time as far as I know a novice will start off against another novice and will face increasingly better opponents as he himself increases in skill by practising and learning from better and more skilled person. You will never see a novice start out by getting destroyed over and over by a far more skilled person, cause that would be demoralising and NOT FUN and would be too steep of a learning curve. You might enjoy it in NS2 but rest assured that most people do not. It's the same in most games, you start out slow and then the difficulty slowly rises. Therefore it is only natural that some people will complain about team stacking, cause suddenly they are facing a brickwall.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said, two people of equal skill will most definitely become better, I don't disagree with that. If something is demoralizing you, it's your own fault silly. look at it in a psychological way it all depends on how you take it, if you whine and quit and look for outside excuses you will learn nothing (as you should), but if you look at it as a challenge and tell yourself "I wanna stomp this nxl. into dirt" than I promise you, you will improve. I have to disagree with you about this "brick wall" because I don't think that a player can get SO GOOD that nobody is able to learn mechanics or strategies, unless again, you whine and complain (even if its in your head).
edit: This isn't a physical sport, we don't have to worry about permanent damage to our bodies, so throwing yourself in more challenging scenarios instead of being pampered at your own level will only help.
You won't get better if you don't play people who are better than you, and if they are stomping you so badly that it is becoming unfun its time to join a different server. It really is as simple as that.
<!--quoteo(post=1988912:date=Oct 9 2012, 04:01 PM:name=KaptajnKLO)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaptajnKLO @ Oct 9 2012, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you go back a page you will see that I am talking about people with high K/D, not one guy with a high K/D and then a gorge. The problem to me is when you have a team full of good players with high K/Ds, which in turn means the other team is being dominated. That is not fun for the other team unless Rambo Swags is on that team, then he'll be having the time of his life.
Also how can a team being dominated blame themselves for a loss when there was never any chance of them winning in the first place?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit there actually, as I've had plenty of experiences where myself or several players on a team end up having stupid K/D ratios and yet still end up losing.
There was actually a thread about this sort of thing several builds ago regarding "pro" players going Fade in public servers and achieving ridiculous 60-1 K/D ratios and supposedly dominating the other team.
Well, I don't really fade much in this build, but at the time, I was one of those players who could occasionally get ridiculously high K/D ratios by fading. But I'll say the same thing here I said in that thread, which was that as many times as I personally did extremely well, my team would end up losing despite my own success.
I agree that "team stacking" can be a problem, but I only think its a legitimate complaint when you've got an entire competitive team picking one side to play on. Then, suddenly, it really is Pubs verses a Competitive team. Outside of that, it's unreasonable to blame your mistakes on one or two, or even several other people on the opposing team.
It's been said, by myself and others, that in general, most of the competitive players actually have no desire to "pub stomp" or "stack teams" and often many of us go out of our way to do exactly the opposite.
If you want to complain about Team Stacking in general, be my guest. But check yourself before you start pointing fingers at individuals or entire teams, because while you may not like feeling as though you're getting "dominated," I sure as hell don't appreciate being called out for something I've gone out of my way to prevent.
So where exactly are these "team stacking professionals" supposed to play, seeing as there are only a very small number (2-3 usually) of populated NA servers at any given time? :/
It's not that competitive players enjoy pub stomping. They don't, I guarantee you the majority of competitive players would prefer to play with/against players of equal or greater skill. It's that there is simply not enough population to support skill-specific servers or any other kind of matchmaking/skill separation.
The best you can do is voterandom on every server you can at the moment, and hope that the population will rise enough to support servers for every skill level and learning curve upon release.
Comments
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Also if I see that there are a number of comp players on a server I will wait to join a team to see if they are going to stack one of the teams. If they do stack one team then I will find another server. It is just no fun when you know the results beforehand; if I join the stacked team I will be on the winning team and if I join the opposing team then my team will be dominated. I just don't understand why anyone would find that fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the onus (see what I did there?) of your gameplay experience falls on me, and not the 22 other people in the server? Does that seem right to you?
I'm not trying to sound elitist. I certainly don't want to ruin anyone's game experience. But I can't control the experience you have. Stacked teams can be annoying, but it doesn't justify placing the burden of your enjoyment onto a select group of players. Suddenly I cant just play the game anymore. Now I have to take into consideration whether or not my goofing around is going to negatively impact someone else's experience.
But I've already said that I, and most of the Nexzil Team, do this already. We like playing against each other, and with each other, but when we're clearly stacking things, we handicap ourselves fairly severely. We do it because we want to play without ruining someone else's experience, and we do it because we want to practice certain things, like dodging, shooting, ambushing etc, without trying being "that guy" who just pubstomps all the time.
I understand it can be frustrating, but just appreciate that we're actually going out of our way to take your gaming experience into consideration. Hell, if you ask nicely, most of us will stop what we're doing and help you figure stuff out. Hell, if a marine asked me, I'd probably just go meet him somewhere so he could practice shooting me.
We're really nice guys (and gals) once you get to know us. :-/
That said, stacking has been an issue in NS1 since forever, and there really isn't any way to fix it automatically. It requires a community's effort and the players themselves to be incentivized somehow.
Playing on the All-In servers, I do encounter a bunch of the Nexzil, Inversion and All-In guys quite often, and with regard to Nexzil specifically, from my experience, they are willing to oppose each other usually. I really appreciate them for doing that, as then people don't see "Oh, that team is going to win, let's all try to join it." I know Virsoul has more than once switched over to our losing team to help us out. As for RedDragon pointing out that you guys self handicap, that's kind of funny, but I guess it introduces another level of fun for you guys. I remember one game where Locklear (I think?) kept suiciding pistol-only against our gorge.
Fixed.
In the situation I described then yes, the two players have a massive impact on the games played and everything is decided on whether or not they are on the same team or are on seperate teams. To me it seems silly to ask whether it is right to voice my concern over that, since it is so obvious that it is impacting some peoples gameplay experience negatively.
<!--quoteo(post=1988818:date=Oct 9 2012, 06:13 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Oct 9 2012, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not trying to sound elitist. I certainly don't want to ruin anyone's game experience. But I can't control the experience you have. Stacked teams can be annoying, but it doesn't justify placing the burden of your enjoyment onto a select group of players. Suddenly I cant just play the game anymore. Now I have to take into consideration whether or not my goofing around is going to negatively impact someone else's experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I don't complain about stacked teams when I play. I will maybe ask if we can get some fair teams and my request will usually be ignored... as far as I can recall only on the HBZ servers have I experienced rearranging of teams to make them fair. As I said before if I encounter statcked teams for several rounds then I will simply find a different server.
I can't quite fathom how you can say "but it doesn't justify placing the burden of your enjoyment onto a select group of players.", when a team stack of comp players or just really good players will so obviously affect how a round will look like to the point where there is no doubt who will win a minute into the game.
Saying it's killing the game is a bit over the top lol. So far switching servers has worked for me and at release there will be even more servers to choose from. Also I would be surprised if there aren't some servers that will pop up that will only allow average players, I'm even considering doing that.
+1
It reminds me of when we had gorgeous and rant on our server, and people were complaining about them playing together. They have as much right to play with their friends, as anyone else does. They are not responsible for ensureing that you enjoy your gaming experience. Gorgeous and rant even voted random when they joined the server, and people who hadnt voted were still complaining, gorgeous actually had to type to them to convince em to vote random. I ask you, what more could they have done?
Nexzil dont really stack by the way. At least not that ive seen.
You don't learn anything from getting stomped in the face. You get better by playing a lot and by getting tips on how to improve from better players.
Also who said we don't have some skill? I am usually at the top with points and K/D and usually I'm in the middle when there are comp players on a server. Skill has nothing to do with whether you enjoy stacked teams or not.
And I don't see why we shouldn't be able to complain about this issue in a civil manner. We're just bringing it to the comp players attention that some people really don't enjoy team stacking in the hopes that they will actively try to avoid it. We can't force them or anything and we're not trying to do so. <--- Unless I get my own server of course which I might =D
I think its really a combination of the two. I don't think norcal minds me saying this, but when we first started playing scrims with them it was a walk in the park. Now, a couple weeks later and they can actually put real pressure on us. I can't wait to watch them in the tournament this weekend.
Whenever someone says "they have a right" I cringe a little. Yes, yes, everyone has their precious rights. Just like the right to complain incessantly if the other pub players don't meet your standards of excellence.
But that's not the point, the point is when two or three "pros" think it's fun to go on a pub stomp that makes the game pretty unfun for the other 14 -18 players on the server. Or if they keep complaining at the more casual players for not fully understanding game strategy or having imperfect aim.
Of course it's their right to do whatever the hell they please and "killing the game" is an obvious hyperbole. But if you're admin on a server and you let this kind of thing go on regularly, don't expect me to play on it.
But all that said I can't say it's something I see happening a great deal on the EU servers (Well, the clan stacking that is. Whinging and raging are pretty common ;))
Also who said we don't have some skill? I am usually at the top with points and K/D and usually I'm in the middle when there are comp players on a server. Skill has nothing to do with whether you enjoy stacked teams or not.
And I don't see why we shouldn't be able to complain about this issue in a civil manner. We're just bringing it to the comp players attention that some people really don't enjoy team stacking in the hopes that they will actively try to avoid it. We can't force them or anything and we're not trying to do so. <--- Unless I get my own server of course which I might =D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem I think many of the people frequently accused of stacking have is that there's a lot of whining about it. I've been in games where rantology and I are on the same team, but rantology is commanding and/or gorging where I am fighting. The game can go on 30 minutes and there will still be someone who complains about us stacking. It's a giant whine fest where people are simply blaming someone other than themselves for their loss.
I always vote random when I join a server. If you aren't voting random or actively trying to get others to vote random, then you shouldn't complain about team stacking. You can fix the problem just by saying "hey guys, hit your tilde key and type 'voterandom.'"
Just to clarify, when i say learning from mistakes and being beaten, I mean just what you said, Taking in afterwards and crossing off what didn't work. A mistake.
If you go back a page you will see that I am talking about people with high K/D, not one guy with a high K/D and then a gorge. The problem to me is when you have a team full of good players with high K/Ds, which in turn means the other team is being dominated. That is not fun for the other team unless Rambo Swags is on that team, then he'll be having the time of his life.
Also how can a team being dominated blame themselves for a loss when there was never any chance of them winning in the first place?
-Whine
-F4 until teams seem somewhat even
-Change server
-Live with it
The first option is usually the one with the worst results.
In every sport throughout time as far as I know a novice will start off against another novice and will face increasingly better opponents as he himself increases in skill by practising and learning from better and more skilled person. You will never see a novice start out by getting destroyed over and over by a far more skilled person, cause that would be demoralising and NOT FUN and would be too steep of a learning curve. You might enjoy it in NS2 but rest assured that most people do not. It's the same in most games, you start out slow and then the difficulty slowly rises. Therefore it is only natural that some people will complain about team stacking, cause suddenly they are facing a brickwall.
As I said, two people of equal skill will most definitely become better, I don't disagree with that. If something is demoralizing you, it's your own fault silly. look at it in a psychological way it all depends on how you take it, if you whine and quit and look for outside excuses you will learn nothing (as you should), but if you look at it as a challenge and tell yourself "I wanna stomp this nxl. into dirt" than I promise you, you will improve. I have to disagree with you about this "brick wall" because I don't think that a player can get SO GOOD that nobody is able to learn mechanics or strategies, unless again, you whine and complain (even if its in your head).
edit: This isn't a physical sport, we don't have to worry about permanent damage to our bodies, so throwing yourself in more challenging scenarios instead of being pampered at your own level will only help.
You won't get better if you don't play people who are better than you, and if they are stomping you so badly that it is becoming unfun its time to join a different server. It really is as simple as that.
Also how can a team being dominated blame themselves for a loss when there was never any chance of them winning in the first place?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit there actually, as I've had plenty of experiences where myself or several players on a team end up having stupid K/D ratios and yet still end up losing.
There was actually a thread about this sort of thing several builds ago regarding "pro" players going Fade in public servers and achieving ridiculous 60-1 K/D ratios and supposedly dominating the other team.
Well, I don't really fade much in this build, but at the time, I was one of those players who could occasionally get ridiculously high K/D ratios by fading. But I'll say the same thing here I said in that thread, which was that as many times as I personally did extremely well, my team would end up losing despite my own success.
I agree that "team stacking" can be a problem, but I only think its a legitimate complaint when you've got an entire competitive team picking one side to play on. Then, suddenly, it really is Pubs verses a Competitive team. Outside of that, it's unreasonable to blame your mistakes on one or two, or even several other people on the opposing team.
It's been said, by myself and others, that in general, most of the competitive players actually have no desire to "pub stomp" or "stack teams" and often many of us go out of our way to do exactly the opposite.
If you want to complain about Team Stacking in general, be my guest. But check yourself before you start pointing fingers at individuals or entire teams, because while you may not like feeling as though you're getting "dominated," I sure as hell don't appreciate being called out for something I've gone out of my way to prevent.
It's not that competitive players enjoy pub stomping. They don't, I guarantee you the majority of competitive players would prefer to play with/against players of equal or greater skill. It's that there is simply not enough population to support skill-specific servers or any other kind of matchmaking/skill separation.
The best you can do is voterandom on every server you can at the moment, and hope that the population will rise enough to support servers for every skill level and learning curve upon release.