AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
Have you ever commanded wilson, ever? The game is 10 times more stressful now, that they are effectively a waste of resources. You seem to forget this is a strategy game, before it is an fps, if it were the other way around, we would not have a commander function to begin with. Now, as they are pointless defensively, a single skulk, RAMBO, skulk, can win the game, this should not even be theoretically possible, Marines, the win button, the lack of 'your base is under attack' at all when the power-node is being chomped to the commander, then you turn back to base because someone says 'powers out' or 'command station, under attack', is VERY FRUSTRATING. They key argument FOR turrets as it helps marines, defend their instant win button, the argument against them is always poor, 'player vs structure blabla', yet people forget the game is a strategy game. if it was anything like say... tf2, shur, that argument works, but no. just no.
Aparently win buttons aren't allowed to be defended, people even whinge and whine against armories and robotics' being put infront of them now.
Uwe if you're still determined to counter the turret *cough* 'problem' *choke*, just make them 15 or 20 res, not useless and laughably weak. if you want to spam something in a strategy game, you should make it so that you have to not spend elsewhere to do so...
Speaking of turrets, when's the last time anyone saw an ARC used to any kind of effect?
I've only seen them come into play a couple of times when the marine team was swimming in res and were ######footing around when they could have easily just done a normal base rush. Seems to me about half of all hive kills are just rifle/shotgun rush, the rest assisted with GL/JP or exosuits. ARCs? What ARCs?
Why are people always drawing the picture black OR white? There are many grays too. Avoiding to much player vs structure gameplay doesn't mean avoiding player vs structure at all. Stop argument with "But there is player vs structure in the game!" Yeah it is. Because its an RTS/FPS hybrid. But NO, we don't have to increase this mechanic until we play a tower defense. Stop being so radical and try to think of a working middle way.
Like Wilson said, sentries were a very frustrating mechanic in the builds where they could kill a skulk. I'm more happy with having them broken than having them overpowered again. That doesn't mean that they aren't fixable. But they should never be such a powerful tool, that they can defend a base alone vs. one skulk. This is the boring game mechanic that existed in the mentioned builds.
3 lone hydras can only hold 1 marine for a few seconds. Even lone whips can't stop a marine. They are always just deterrents that buy you some time. <b>Sentries need to be the same.</b> 3 lone sentries should always be killable by a single skulk. You just buy some time to get marines in this base before the skulk finishes the sentries.
This is only achievable by a hard-cap of 3 per robo-factory. The sentries should never cover each other to 100%. Or a skulk won't be able to kill them. There should always be blind spots enforced. (For example by the big robo-factory-model.) The skulk should always be able to circle a sentry and attack it from behind when there is no marine to stop him while chewing at the sentry.
Again: Making sentries able to defend a base at their own against one or two skulks will create very frustrating gameplay. We had this already. It ended in sentry spam. The com literally build sentries in EVERY room. To bring alien advance to a complete stop.
<!--quoteo(post=1988695:date=Oct 9 2012, 09:40 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Oct 9 2012, 09:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like Wilson said, sentries were a very frustrating mechanic in the builds where they could kill a skulk.
...
Again: Making sentries able to defend a base at their own against one or two skulks will create very frustrating gameplay. We had this already. It ended in sentry spam. The com literally build sentries in EVERY room. To bring alien advance to a complete stop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your argument would be valid - were it not for the fact that there's so many remedies. So what if a skulk can't survive sentries? Get a gorge. Or a lerk. Or anything other than a skulk really. Turrets in NS1 weren't broken, they were part of the game and that even though lerks had no gas that made turrets fail to lock on. There were no power nodes that could shut them down all at once.
This game is by definition asymmetric. Aliens don't have jetpacks. Marines don't have bilebombs. And alien hydras don't depend on power, and killing the cyst network is very different from destroying a power node in it's timeframe of effect.
So no, I don't think a skulk should survive more than 3 seconds against 3 sentries firing at him. Enough to get past them, but not enough to just ignore them.
Make the turrets expensive. Limit their numbers. I don't care. But turrets should be effective against aliens, esp. lower tier lifeforms.
And FYI I'm not at all against making hydras a bit more powerful either. NS2 is very big on offense right now, which is fine, but it feels a bit too fragile to be honest. Plus why not have people get to the higher tier stuff like Exos? Better defenses mean that the higher tier stuff actually makes sense. And if they are expensive enough, the team that walls themselves in will be starved for res, and won't have enough res to counter a coordinated attack lateron.
I do miss the luxury of having 2 - 3 turrents just covering a powenode. I hope they do come back since they are right at the forefront of the promo trailers.
<!--quoteo(post=1988700:date=Oct 9 2012, 11:16 AM:name=Toumal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Toumal @ Oct 9 2012, 11:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Better defenses mean that the higher tier stuff actually makes sense. And if they are expensive enough, the team that walls themselves in will be starved for res, and won't have enough res to counter a coordinated attack lateron.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This works only in theory. Because with such a good defense, you can turtle long enough to get the invested res back and even more. The builds with powerful sentries showed that.
You can't allow the com to completely deny parts of the map from the default alien. As I wrote, that leads to spam and to very frustrating gameplay for the aliens. This is not a symmetry / asymmetry point. I just mentioned hydras and whips, because it is a basic rule, that you should never ever have AI-defense that can shutdown a part of the map from the other team alone (without player interaction). No matter what FPS game or what team. This leads always to boring gameplay. Even the TF2 LvL3 Sentry is a joke if the engi isn't near.
You can't say "just get gorges etc." It doesn't work this way. If you have undefended sentries, skulks should be enough to overcome them. If you have a marine guarding them, you need a gorge and a skulk, etc. If you build it up the other way, your sentry-base will be overpowered as soon as one marine is near.
I had dozens of games where the com just spamed sentries slowly in every room. When the alien team is occupied by holding back the whole-marine-team rush, you only can allow one skulk to push out to get something down from the marines or you will immediately lose the rushed hive. But when this skulk is shot by sentries the moment he leaves alien territory, without the way to overcome this, it gets boring.
I don't understand why it should be so important or a good idea to have AI-defense that can shut down rooms completely from the default alien. Your fuzzy warm feeling of having not to worry over that room, comes with the cost of heavy alien-player frustration. If you believe it or not. It is not worth having such a bad mechanic ingame.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have never been playing and thought, man this would be a lot more fun if only we had sentries<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm guessing you have never commed? Or you simply have no experience in using them as a commander before they were wrecked. I can assure you, from a strategic perspective, sentries made a world of difference for marines. Not only could just a small amount of sentries deter the lone or small amount of skulks from chewing on your powernode or IPs (forcing them to tackle the sentries FIRST, winning you time), they were also absolutely great to use early on to support a marine push. or a forward base in the making. This is a gameplay element that I would not take lightly, given how this is after all an FPS/RTS.\
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again: Making sentries able to defend a base at their own against one or two skulks will create very frustrating gameplay. We had this already. It ended in sentry spam. The com literally build sentries in EVERY room. To bring alien advance to a complete stop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a foolish argument. If marines 'spam' (i.e. put down the max amount in every room) sentries at a point in the game where aliens have only skulks to counter them (i.e early game) they are investing HUGE amounts of resources (10 per sentry) at the cost of other (and more offensive) upgrades. This means that those sentries are effectively delaying weapon, armor upgrades and advanced weaponry and what not. If this is being done later in the game, then there is really no beef because bilebomb, onos, fade will all have an easy time tackling them. (not to mention skulk + leap)
Also early game lerk gas is an easy counter, just need some teamwork. God forbid aliens need to work together sometimes to overcome 30+ T.res invested on just... defensess... (At the cost of other things) Not to mention that as a result of the sentry focus early game, marines are going to be a lot easier to kill and pack a lot less of a punch when they try to push on alien territory. This means that aliens have it easier holding on to their ground and once higher lifeforms come out marines will be in real trouble as aliens slowly push on marine territory WITH TEAMWORK.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had dozens of games where the com just spamed sentries slowly in every room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's pointless comparing your experience playing vs REAL sentry spam (base full of them) with what we hope will be sentries on a hardcap. You also can't cover every part of your base with just 4 sentries, there will always be blind spots, as a lone skulk it's about exploiting that or simply focussing on areas and RTs that aren't covered by sentries. (until you get a lerk to gas, a gorge to bilebomb, or other higher lifeforms or just bigger numbers to assist)
<!--quoteo(post=1988708:date=Oct 9 2012, 11:47 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 9 2012, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also early game lerk gas is an easy counter, just need some teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no team you can work together with. Because everybody is bussy defending from a full-marine-team-rush.
It is pretty simple: If sentries can hold back skulks on their own. It is the same as if you could build a marine to defend your base. That leads to 1 sentry-base = 1 marine. Effectively you increase your player-count with every sentry-base, increasing the effective-man-power of the marine team. Thats why they can't be effective on their own. You shouldn't be able to increase your man-power with res.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no team you can work together with. Because everybody is bussy defending from a full-marine-team-rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, really? So you're saying when marines are pushing hard on a hive, the only possible way to break that attack is to hit something in their base as a lone skulk? (Why else would you bring this up, I mean why go bite on their base by yourself at that time? You'd probably cause more damage by just hitting RTs behind the lines) That's like saying the marines need to sneak in and kill something in the alien base when the aliens are full-out attacking... which they can. But you know, a single whip and/or some hydras will stop or at the very least significantly delay a marine trying to kill alien upgrades. (And only one alien player will need to respond, which means there's still an equal amount of aliens on the front-line to the amount of marines...)
A single skulk can easily exploit the blind spots that ARE going to exist with only 4 sentries per node or TF.
Not to mention you've entirely missed the economical argumentation behind why sentry spam isn't viable anyway. Sure it can be annoying to play against, but it certainly can't win you games. To counter this 'annoyance' I simply propose a hardcap, that way you can put down a few to cover some areas of your base against lone skulks or support marines in their push, but those sentries ARE easily counter-able. Even a lone skulk with leap will have no trouble getting past... And really, if a commander gets 4 sentries per room early on in the game (when they're the most effective), he's going to significantly gimp his team on the offensive. (Which in turn allows aliens more breathing space) It's a TRADE OFF, not entirely unessential in the RTS aspect of NS 2.
To suggest that a skulk going into marine base to chew on something during a marine push is somehow a viable tactic is simply laughable. The commander can easily jump out and deal with you, or get one marine to come back to base to kill you and repair whatever you've been biting down. You certainly won't have destroyed anything unless the commander has fallen asleep.
It's clear to me that you simply don't like sentries personally, and that at the very least your experience with sentries has been heavily affected by facing truckloads of them spammed in a room perpetually delaying an alien win (I played these builds too), which is obviously something nobody here wants, but it would be nice if you could leave this personal bias out of your argumentation as to why smaller amounts of EFFECTIVE sentries don't have their place in an RTS/FPS hybrid. Certainly in their current environment, with many more proper alien counters, they DO have a role, and they DO add something to gameplay (not to mention strategic depth to the marine commander, more choices, more trade-offs)
Sentries health could scale with Armor Levels or scale with the number and type of Aliens within its proximity. Sentries could also deal % based damage. Something like penetrating bullets, aka if all the Aliens are linear they all get hit with 1 Sentry bullet, might work too. And make Sentries non-dependant on the Power Node and have a cap.
This way, Aliens will think more thoroughly before attempting something like the Power Node rush. 1) They risk losing objectives because all of them dies due to 1 Sentry + 1-2 Marines guarding 2) They might take out the Sentry 1st then go for the Node, which buys Marines some time 3) If they do manage to take out the Node, will they survive to get the other objectives and the incoming Marines on foot, since the sentry is given free reign over the Aliens
Only problem I see is, Marines turtling for extended periods of time and dragging the game on OR every game having one Sentry a MUST. Probably a 5min Sentry Drop and a high TRes cost will solve this issue.
Xarius, I highly recommend that you actually read more than one sentence of what I have written. Stop laying words in my mouth that I never used or dragging them out of context. For example I wrote, that I think sentries are balance-able. But you ignored that. I argued with another person about how strong they should be, but you ignored that. You're just making stuff up, I never wrote.
<!--quoteo(post=1988690:date=Oct 9 2012, 08:07 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Oct 9 2012, 08:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You seem to forget this is a strategy game, before it is an fps, if it were the other way around, we would not have a commander function to begin with. Now, as they are pointless defensively, a single skulk, RAMBO, skulk, can win the game, this should not even be theoretically possible, Marines, the win button, the lack of 'your base is under attack' at all when the power-node is being chomped to the commander, then you turn back to base because someone says 'powers out' or 'command station, under attack', is VERY FRUSTRATING.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 is an FPS first and foremost. UWE have stated this before and it is the reason for allowing players to buy their own weapons etc. The majority of players are playing an FPS game with some small RTS elements, resources and a progression through a tech tree. I find it silly to argue things from the RTS perspective because playing as a unit in an RTS game would be no fun at all. Even with perfect aim you would just die against superior units. You would be forced to just stand around certain areas if that's what your commander wanted. Making design choices around the fact that NS2 has some RTS elements even if they hurt the FPS aspect of the game is not wise.
Are you seriously trying to argue that the game needs sentries to stop 1 skulk from biting your base? Yes, it should be possible for 1 player to win the game... The problem you have is with com alerts and your marines on the ground. The solution to those problems is not to add in sentry guns. I understand that there is a strong temptation to turtle and base build in any RTS. In a normal RTS game that is fine because you will lose to the player expanding and taking more risks. But in an FPS/RTS that is bad, because it leads to frustration for the majority of players. Even if you end up winning the game as aliens, it's no fun to fight against marines turtling with sentry guns.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They key argument FOR turrets as it helps marines, defend their instant win button, the argument against them is always poor, 'player vs structure blabla', yet people forget the game is a strategy game. if it was anything like say... tf2, shur, that argument works, but no. just no.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game is like TF2. It's an FPS game first and foremost. Fun of the players on the ground should be the priority.
Even when the sentries were limited (by the mod on the HBZ servers) to 4 per room, a com could pretty much defend marine start from even a mass of skulks. It was pretty easy to cover the majority of your important buildings in base with the sentries by putting them up against the wall etc. It gave plenty of time for the marines to defend the base easily and it became pointless for skulks to even go to marine start. It just created more stalemate games and boring gameplay.
I don't know if it currently works this way or not, buuut...
The turrets should be bad at tracking fast moving targets, but they should have a movement "threshold". So a Skulk bounding from one side of the room to another should be incredibly difficult for a turret to hit, but a skulk moving side to side no more than 5 feet at a time should be just as good as stationery. The greater the range of movement, the less tracking.
That way, a turret can still effectively cover a group of marines, if say, a fade was to blink in and start hitting. As long as the target to cover remains relatively stationery, anything trying to deal sustained damage to it should be hit by the turret (anything melee of course).
Guys, this isn't going anywhere. It's clear that sentry spam is bad, nobody argues that.
There are basically two groups here:
Group 1 believes that sentries must be very weak because otherwise there will allegedly be sentry spam, and none of the alien counters (attack powernode, bilebomb, lerk gas, etc) are enough to alleviate this. Hydras are relatively weak so sentries have to be as well.
Group 2 believes that Sentries are useless if weak like that, they should be able to defend against a lone skulk effectively, and that a sentry cap combined with the various alien counters is enough to stop sentry spam.
Now if we are talking about hard caps on sentries, I think the whole sentry spam argument is done for anyway. If there's a hard cap on something, you cannot "spam all over the map", period. Make the sentry cap 8 turrets total, and I want to see how you can "spam the map" with them. Let's not forget that in addition to a possibly prohibitively high price, sentries can also be nullified by lerks, gorges, etc. (Silly idea I just wanna throw in: Gorge spit could dazzle a sentry for 3 seconds... I still miss the fade bile rockets. Those were awesome and another excellent counter for turret farms in NS1)
So can we please stop the "OMG SENTRY SPAM!" rage and work from a total cap of sentries and/or a high sentry price, and go from there? Or maybe make sentries require expensive research, so it's a path you have to commit yourself to if you want them.
Just wondering, is anyone against a hard cap on sentries at all?
theres too much hypocracy going on by both players and the devs
You dont want player vs AI ? Then why have mass drifter rushes been allowed to exist for so long ? You think marines find that fun ? Thats a viable strategy? but sentries are not ? Why are hydras and whips still around ? You want player vs player dont you ? and not player vs structure ? Is it fun for marines to get beacon'd back to base when theres only 1 skulk ? Is it fun losing an entire expansion or even your main base when aliens do a surprise rush and take out the obs/powernode before the comm can react ???? (very effective with drifter enzyme cloud). Is it fun for aliens when they die to mines ? or is dieing to sentries less fun than dieing to mines ? Is it fun to die to spores ? is it fun to have your energy get gimped by the flamethrower ?
The balance in this game is totally screwed up, marines spawn way too quick, and if they nerf marine spawn times then marines will almost certainly need defensive sentries because theres no way they will be able to hold 2 bases like how they currently do with phase gates and beacon (which only works now because marines spawn so quick).
It seems like the argument against sentries relies heavily on the old overpowered sentries that ruined pub games. Of course those sentries werent fun, but to go so far as support essentially removing them from the game / make them a fluff feature, its idiocracy. Sentries played a role in NS1 and it wasnt like everyone was ###### and complaining about how unfun they were.
And its not like people want sentry spam back, what part of this is so hard to understand ? I think what is really going on is that people get all defensive when others dont agree with them, and so they respond by rejecting anything that doesn't conform to their views, no matter how much sense it makes. Even this post of mine, it wont even register in their brains.
<!--quoteo(post=1988756:date=Oct 9 2012, 06:10 AM:name=Toumal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Toumal @ Oct 9 2012, 06:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Group 1 believes that sentries must be very weak because otherwise there will allegedly be sentry spam, and none of the alien counters (attack powernode, bilebomb, lerk gas, etc) are enough to alleviate this. Hydras are relatively weak so sentries have to be as well.
Group 2 believes that Sentries are useless if weak like that, they should be able to defend against a lone skulk effectively, and that a sentry cap combined with the various alien counters is enough to stop sentry spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm in group 2.5, have some kind of local/global cap while also giving Sentries capped ammunition that regenerates slowly. This effectively turns Sentries into self-reloading mines. A sentry will kill the first skulk or two easily, but once it runs out of ammo it's a sitting duck that can be eaten or ignored (until they regenerate enough to start firing again). Which is how the guns worked in Aliens if you'll recall (sans the regenerating).
This makes Sentries work great at being Sentries while not being as good as having an actual marine there.
(Yes I know that sentries were ammo based in an old build but they were refilled by the commander clicking on them, which is a bad way to implement an otherwise potentially good idea)
e: Also, I still don't get the "PvP not PvStructure" thing. I have loads of PvP games to play, the RTS/FPS hybrid thing is what I play NS2 for. If I want to play pure FPS I can just play TF2 or something. A game which, despite being described as being an FPS/Hat Simulator hybrid, still has functioning turrets.
<!--quoteo(post=1988760:date=Oct 9 2012, 02:43 PM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Oct 9 2012, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You dont want player vs AI ? Then why have mass drifter rushes been allowed to exist for so long ? You think marines find that fun ? Thats a viable strategy? but sentries are not ? Why are hydras and whips still around ? You want player vs player dont you ? and not player vs structure ? Is it fun for marines to get beacon'd back to base when theres only 1 skulk ? Is it fun losing an entire expansion or even your main base when aliens do a surprise rush and take out the obs/powernode before the comm can react ???? (very effective with drifter enzyme cloud). Is it fun for aliens when they die to mines ? or is dieing to sentries less fun than dieing to mines ? Is it fun to die to spores ? is it fun to have your energy get gimped by the flamethrower ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, no one is arguing that those aspects of the game are fine but sentries are not. In fact the majority of the things you mentioned are actually common gripes with the game. Not many people like mines, or the flamethrower or mass driffters. Just because the game has some bad mechanics does not justify adding more. I agree that the game would be better without these things.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems like the argument against sentries relies heavily on the old overpowered sentries that ruined pub games. Of course those sentries werent fun, but to go so far as support essentially removing them from the game / make them a fluff feature, its idiocracy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point is that it doesn't matter how powerful they are, they are just not fun regardless. Of course when they were spammed all across the map it was horrible. But do hydras and whips make the game more fun? Wouldn't it be better if you were fighting against the gorge himself rather than mini turrets? Does adding more buildings into the game, especially ones that can attack players really serve to make the game more enjoyable? I don't think so.
I've already had words on possible concepts for this, but lets think about how this will work as an all round solution. I don't like suggestions based on movement of players, as this sounds like something that would be mind bogglingly difficult to balance out.
Firstly you have pub play. Past issues we have seen is that you have turtling, spam and this ruins the PVP gameplay. Balancing based on damage doesn't scale well, because people will just end up buying more, and if they are made more expensive people won't use them. We have seen this cycle through development. Whilst 1/2 turrets work nicely, there is no way of preventing people from placing more.
So essentially we need a way of hard capping them based on a solutions that scale in a way that works on any map.
With competitive play the cost needs to be worth it so that it gives marines a real advantage. I have recently come to believe that the better the tech, the larger the advantages and disadvantages of using this tech should become and the narrower the solutions for tackling it should become.
So an EXO for example is really powerful, but has a big issue with skulks or multiple skulks which are a lower life form. I like this form of almost 'hard countering' as Charlie describes it.
Basically you need a distinct advantage with the unit, but which requires a particular method to take it down as to offset the cost and actually give it an advantage.
You also see more depth and strategy in this manner, as it is not just about throwing as much damage at a unit as possible, but requires forward and strategic/tactical thinking.
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That is why I thought the best solution for sentrys would be for them to have two modes, and hard capping them to the number of CCs you have. I.e. 1 per CC.
<b>Mode 1)</b> 360 FOV, low damage, 100% accuracy, designed to harass and support marines or allow them time to return to base in time to save a structure.
I would perhaps balance this based on its ability to kill 1 skulk before it destroys the observatory.
This '360' mode would work well for pubs. Whilst placement would still matter, they can shoot 360 to protect themselves so it is more of a place and forget.
A lone skulk wouldn't be able to kill a sentry if it went for it, but two might.
<b>Mode 2)</b> 30 FOV, very high damage, 100% accuracy, designed to be used in corridors as a way of blocking alien movement though the map.
This mode is designed so that it works as a brick wall for the marine side, forcing aliens to take longer paths through the map. Because of the limited FOV, getting behind them would be easy, but the aliens require work and time to do this. Having to flank using vents and longer routes through the map.
Once down however, it would open up the map. Using them in rooms would be useless as the FOV would be so limited, so there is no chance of them being OP. Adding a laser and perhaps visual representation of their FOV could aide players on how they tackle them.
I would see this being used in competitive play, because it would enable marines to use turrets tactically and effectively as part of their plan for the map. Being dropped in specific locations before attacking. Even supporting ARC routes.
Think common sniper spots, like those in CS.
I also think they should be placeable early on, and not linked to the robotics factory.
This is the sort of solution that addresses everyone's concerns as best as I can think of.
I don't particularly find playing whack-a-mole fun either, not as a commander nor as a player. Having to constantly respond to lone skulks, or marines for that matter, sneaking in and knifing harvesters/upgrades or biting down structures is just as annoying. If players invest T.res and/or p.res in somewhat (I say somewhat because neither sentries, mines or hydras or whips are perfect) mitigating the effectiveness of these kinds of strategies, I don't see why you have the right to complain about that. It's a legitimate res investment, and an important trade-off on the RTS side of the game.
This 'it's an FPS first' notion is somewhat ridiculous, given how the FPS gameplay heavily revolves around what happens on the RTS level. The RTS level sets the stage, it enables the actors, and it's at this level that adding depth and trade-offs will enable a more rich and varied FPS experience as well.
Also, I think a per powernode cap or per TF cap is a better solution than a global one. Maybe 3 is better than 4, since supposedly 4 can give 360* coverage where as 3 can not.
<!--quoteo(post=1988770:date=Oct 9 2012, 04:09 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 9 2012, 04:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988770"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I think a per powernode cap or per TF cap is a better solution than a global one. Maybe 3 is better than 4, since supposedly 4 can give 360* coverage where as 3 can not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm fine with this, as long as there is a blind spot that enable the lone skulk to overcome such a setup in maybe 10 seconds. (Enough time for the marines to react.)
@Runteh: Your Mode2 is overpowered. There is nothing that hinders a com from placing 2 sentries so they cover each other AND other buildings. Not to mention, that you could easily shut down complete parts of the map so that there is no way to circle around the sentries.
30/35 degrees is very limited it would only work in certain situations (i.e. long corridors, vents) and you'd only have 2 sentrys once you had 2 CCs. If the 2nd CC falls, bye bye 2nd sentry (power down?)
Yes, perhaps once you had 4 CCs you could place them all in one area, but then 95% of the map is now vulnerable.
I'm sure the Fade could blink past anyway, and if they hurt each other on hit... problem solved. You could easily sneak up using one of the sentrys as cover.
That's why I like ammunition-based solutions. It stops sentry kills from being "free" kills since your death cost bullets, and whatever other tactics are available to take down a particular turret if all else fails you will eventually win through pure attrition unless some Marines show up to provide backup.
That is why I liked the idea of an ammo regeneration unit instead of a battery.
Basically it regenerates its own ammo over time and reloads the sentry, but it takes time to regen the ammo thus preventing a constant flow of bullets.
If anyone remembers having to reload sentrys as commander, they'll know how annoying that was.
Manual commander reloading like that is just whackamole by another name.
A good defensive structure is a stopgap measure designed to delay assaults upon a location long enough for reinforcement to arrive. While it'll take out the occasional lone skulk (or marine) fine, once you hit anything that could be described as "organised" you need to send in the marines (or fades as the case may be). It's not a player replacement, it just buys time for the actual players to get there and provides support once they do. Ammo-based solutions work great for that because, as above, it'll shoot one roaming skulk fine (and two will shoot two etc), but if anything more serious shows up all it will do is delay them a bit, maybe take one or two of them out and foce them to run back from spawn.
Heck, even if one carapaced skulk just keeps coming back over and over after each spawn (or a regen skulk is dodging in and regenning behind a wall, or a celerity skulk keeps streaking across the room ahead of it's bullet lines) they'll eventually just wear the poor thing out unless a marine comes to assist. Which is exactly what we want: a structure that distracts the attackers from the "important" structures until the real players arrive but is ultimately useless if they never actually do.
The only issue is, I'd like to see sentrys used well in competitive play. If they were basically altered slightly and hard capped with ammo regen, or whatever. I think they should be an early alternative to observatory and thus get rid of the link with the robotics factory.
<!--quoteo(post=1988798:date=Oct 9 2012, 08:24 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Oct 9 2012, 08:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988798"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only issue is, I'd like to see sentrys used well in competitive play. If they were basically altered slightly and hard capped with ammo regen, or whatever. I think they should be an early alternative to observatory and thus get rid of the link with the robotics factory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->What if you could place a fully-loaded sentry from the beginning (or keep the robotics lab requirement but reduce its cost), but automatic ammo regeneration was disabled until additional structures are placed and/or research is performed?
<!--quoteo(post=1988809:date=Oct 9 2012, 08:56 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 9 2012, 08:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why not just do like ns1 did. cap the damage by the turrets to a lvl 1 lmg. then make them 10-15 pts per turret to drop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't forget the TF restricting their placement and providing a natural blind spot.
Granted, in NS1, turrets were for pubs only to hold an area. Pro were godo enough and mobile enough they didn't plunk down the 30res for the TF+turrets unless it was siege time.
I think turrets could be revisited. Sentry Spam used to be a problem due to a few issues, mostly because you could place them anywhere and they didn't have a strong counter. Now an Onos is a pretty solid counter (didn't exist in previous iteration), Bile Bomb is effective, and we have ways of limiting their spammability (caps, locality, blind spots, cost, and limited ammo are all legitimate systems, mix and match to your pleasure).
This is a classic example of how small changes in gameplay features can drastically alter the balance of a complex game like NS. I'd hope for an iteration cycle just on this issue, but we'll see what the devs have time for.
Comments
The game is 10 times more stressful now, that they are effectively a waste of resources.
You seem to forget this is a strategy game, before it is an fps, if it were the other way around, we would not have a commander function to begin with.
Now, as they are pointless defensively, a single skulk, RAMBO, skulk, can win the game, this should not even be theoretically possible, Marines, the win button, the lack of 'your base is under attack' at all when the power-node is being chomped to the commander, then you turn back to base because someone says 'powers out' or 'command station, under attack', is VERY FRUSTRATING.
They key argument FOR turrets as it helps marines, defend their instant win button, the argument against them is always poor, 'player vs structure blabla', yet people forget the game is a strategy game. if it was anything like say... tf2, shur, that argument works, but no. just no.
Aparently win buttons aren't allowed to be defended, people even whinge and whine against armories and robotics' being put infront of them now.
Uwe if you're still determined to counter the turret *cough* 'problem' *choke*, just make them 15 or 20 res, not useless and laughably weak. if you want to spam something in a strategy game, you should make it so that you have to not spend elsewhere to do so...
I've only seen them come into play a couple of times when the marine team was swimming in res and were ######footing around when they could have easily just done a normal base rush. Seems to me about half of all hive kills are just rifle/shotgun rush, the rest assisted with GL/JP or exosuits. ARCs? What ARCs?
Like Wilson said, sentries were a very frustrating mechanic in the builds where they could kill a skulk. I'm more happy with having them broken than having them overpowered again. That doesn't mean that they aren't fixable.
But they should never be such a powerful tool, that they can defend a base alone vs. one skulk. This is the boring game mechanic that existed in the mentioned builds.
3 lone hydras can only hold 1 marine for a few seconds. Even lone whips can't stop a marine. They are always just deterrents that buy you some time. <b>Sentries need to be the same.</b> 3 lone sentries should always be killable by a single skulk. You just buy some time to get marines in this base before the skulk finishes the sentries.
This is only achievable by a hard-cap of 3 per robo-factory. The sentries should never cover each other to 100%. Or a skulk won't be able to kill them. There should always be blind spots enforced. (For example by the big robo-factory-model.) The skulk should always be able to circle a sentry and attack it from behind when there is no marine to stop him while chewing at the sentry.
Again: Making sentries able to defend a base at their own against one or two skulks will create very frustrating gameplay. We had this already. It ended in sentry spam. The com literally build sentries in EVERY room. To bring alien advance to a complete stop.
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Again: Making sentries able to defend a base at their own against one or two skulks will create very frustrating gameplay. We had this already. It ended in sentry spam. The com literally build sentries in EVERY room. To bring alien advance to a complete stop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your argument would be valid - were it not for the fact that there's so many remedies. So what if a skulk can't survive sentries? Get a gorge. Or a lerk. Or anything other than a skulk really. Turrets in NS1 weren't broken, they were part of the game and that even though lerks had no gas that made turrets fail to lock on. There were no power nodes that could shut them down all at once.
This game is by definition asymmetric. Aliens don't have jetpacks. Marines don't have bilebombs. And alien hydras don't depend on power, and killing the cyst network is very different from destroying a power node in it's timeframe of effect.
So no, I don't think a skulk should survive more than 3 seconds against 3 sentries firing at him. Enough to get past them, but not enough to just ignore them.
Make the turrets expensive. Limit their numbers. I don't care. But turrets should be effective against aliens, esp. lower tier lifeforms.
And FYI I'm not at all against making hydras a bit more powerful either. NS2 is very big on offense right now, which is fine, but it feels a bit too fragile to be honest. Plus why not have people get to the higher tier stuff like Exos? Better defenses mean that the higher tier stuff actually makes sense. And if they are expensive enough, the team that walls themselves in will be starved for res, and won't have enough res to counter a coordinated attack lateron.
I do miss the luxury of having 2 - 3 turrents just covering a powenode. I hope they do come back since they are right at the forefront of the promo trailers.
I have faith in Charlie. x
This works only in theory. Because with such a good defense, you can turtle long enough to get the invested res back and even more. The builds with powerful sentries showed that.
You can't allow the com to completely deny parts of the map from the default alien. As I wrote, that leads to spam and to very frustrating gameplay for the aliens. This is not a symmetry / asymmetry point. I just mentioned hydras and whips, because it is a basic rule, that you should never ever have AI-defense that can shutdown a part of the map from the other team alone (without player interaction). No matter what FPS game or what team. This leads always to boring gameplay. Even the TF2 LvL3 Sentry is a joke if the engi isn't near.
You can't say "just get gorges etc." It doesn't work this way. If you have undefended sentries, skulks should be enough to overcome them. If you have a marine guarding them, you need a gorge and a skulk, etc. If you build it up the other way, your sentry-base will be overpowered as soon as one marine is near.
I had dozens of games where the com just spamed sentries slowly in every room. When the alien team is occupied by holding back the whole-marine-team rush, you only can allow one skulk to push out to get something down from the marines or you will immediately lose the rushed hive. But when this skulk is shot by sentries the moment he leaves alien territory, without the way to overcome this, it gets boring.
I don't understand why it should be so important or a good idea to have AI-defense that can shut down rooms completely from the default alien. Your fuzzy warm feeling of having not to worry over that room, comes with the cost of heavy alien-player frustration. If you believe it or not. It is not worth having such a bad mechanic ingame.
I'm guessing you have never commed? Or you simply have no experience in using them as a commander before they were wrecked. I can assure you, from a strategic perspective, sentries made a world of difference for marines. Not only could just a small amount of sentries deter the lone or small amount of skulks from chewing on your powernode or IPs (forcing them to tackle the sentries FIRST, winning you time), they were also absolutely great to use early on to support a marine push. or a forward base in the making. This is a gameplay element that I would not take lightly, given how this is after all an FPS/RTS.\
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again: Making sentries able to defend a base at their own against one or two skulks will create very frustrating gameplay. We had this already. It ended in sentry spam. The com literally build sentries in EVERY room. To bring alien advance to a complete stop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a foolish argument. If marines 'spam' (i.e. put down the max amount in every room) sentries at a point in the game where aliens have only skulks to counter them (i.e early game) they are investing HUGE amounts of resources (10 per sentry) at the cost of other (and more offensive) upgrades. This means that those sentries are effectively delaying weapon, armor upgrades and advanced weaponry and what not. If this is being done later in the game, then there is really no beef because bilebomb, onos, fade will all have an easy time tackling them. (not to mention skulk + leap)
Also early game lerk gas is an easy counter, just need some teamwork. God forbid aliens need to work together sometimes to overcome 30+ T.res invested on just... defensess... (At the cost of other things) Not to mention that as a result of the sentry focus early game, marines are going to be a lot easier to kill and pack a lot less of a punch when they try to push on alien territory. This means that aliens have it easier holding on to their ground and once higher lifeforms come out marines will be in real trouble as aliens slowly push on marine territory WITH TEAMWORK.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had dozens of games where the com just spamed sentries slowly in every room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's pointless comparing your experience playing vs REAL sentry spam (base full of them) with what we hope will be sentries on a hardcap. You also can't cover every part of your base with just 4 sentries, there will always be blind spots, as a lone skulk it's about exploiting that or simply focussing on areas and RTs that aren't covered by sentries. (until you get a lerk to gas, a gorge to bilebomb, or other higher lifeforms or just bigger numbers to assist)
"...Cap'em! Cap!"
yeah, why not to limit them to 3-4 on a chair?
There is no team you can work together with. Because everybody is bussy defending from a full-marine-team-rush.
It is pretty simple: If sentries can hold back skulks on their own. It is the same as if you could build a marine to defend your base. That leads to 1 sentry-base = 1 marine. Effectively you increase your player-count with every sentry-base, increasing the effective-man-power of the marine team. Thats why they can't be effective on their own. You shouldn't be able to increase your man-power with res.
Lol, really? So you're saying when marines are pushing hard on a hive, the only possible way to break that attack is to hit something in their base as a lone skulk? (Why else would you bring this up, I mean why go bite on their base by yourself at that time? You'd probably cause more damage by just hitting RTs behind the lines) That's like saying the marines need to sneak in and kill something in the alien base when the aliens are full-out attacking... which they can. But you know, a single whip and/or some hydras will stop or at the very least significantly delay a marine trying to kill alien upgrades. (And only one alien player will need to respond, which means there's still an equal amount of aliens on the front-line to the amount of marines...)
A single skulk can easily exploit the blind spots that ARE going to exist with only 4 sentries per node or TF.
Not to mention you've entirely missed the economical argumentation behind why sentry spam isn't viable anyway. Sure it can be annoying to play against, but it certainly can't win you games. To counter this 'annoyance' I simply propose a hardcap, that way you can put down a few to cover some areas of your base against lone skulks or support marines in their push, but those sentries ARE easily counter-able. Even a lone skulk with leap will have no trouble getting past... And really, if a commander gets 4 sentries per room early on in the game (when they're the most effective), he's going to significantly gimp his team on the offensive. (Which in turn allows aliens more breathing space) It's a TRADE OFF, not entirely unessential in the RTS aspect of NS 2.
To suggest that a skulk going into marine base to chew on something during a marine push is somehow a viable tactic is simply laughable. The commander can easily jump out and deal with you, or get one marine to come back to base to kill you and repair whatever you've been biting down. You certainly won't have destroyed anything unless the commander has fallen asleep.
It's clear to me that you simply don't like sentries personally, and that at the very least your experience with sentries has been heavily affected by facing truckloads of them spammed in a room perpetually delaying an alien win (I played these builds too), which is obviously something nobody here wants, but it would be nice if you could leave this personal bias out of your argumentation as to why smaller amounts of EFFECTIVE sentries don't have their place in an RTS/FPS hybrid. Certainly in their current environment, with many more proper alien counters, they DO have a role, and they DO add something to gameplay (not to mention strategic depth to the marine commander, more choices, more trade-offs)
Sentries could also deal % based damage.
Something like penetrating bullets, aka if all the Aliens are linear they all get hit with 1 Sentry bullet, might work too.
And make Sentries non-dependant on the Power Node and have a cap.
This way, Aliens will think more thoroughly before attempting something like the Power Node rush.
1) They risk losing objectives because all of them dies due to 1 Sentry + 1-2 Marines guarding
2) They might take out the Sentry 1st then go for the Node, which buys Marines some time
3) If they do manage to take out the Node, will they survive to get the other objectives and the incoming Marines on foot, since the sentry is given free reign over the Aliens
Only problem I see is, Marines turtling for extended periods of time and dragging the game on OR every game having one Sentry a MUST.
Probably a 5min Sentry Drop and a high TRes cost will solve this issue.
Now, as they are pointless defensively, a single skulk, RAMBO, skulk, can win the game, this should not even be theoretically possible, Marines, the win button, the lack of 'your base is under attack' at all when the power-node is being chomped to the commander, then you turn back to base because someone says 'powers out' or 'command station, under attack', is VERY FRUSTRATING.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 is an FPS first and foremost. UWE have stated this before and it is the reason for allowing players to buy their own weapons etc. The majority of players are playing an FPS game with some small RTS elements, resources and a progression through a tech tree. I find it silly to argue things from the RTS perspective because playing as a unit in an RTS game would be no fun at all. Even with perfect aim you would just die against superior units. You would be forced to just stand around certain areas if that's what your commander wanted. Making design choices around the fact that NS2 has some RTS elements even if they hurt the FPS aspect of the game is not wise.
Are you seriously trying to argue that the game needs sentries to stop 1 skulk from biting your base? Yes, it should be possible for 1 player to win the game... The problem you have is with com alerts and your marines on the ground. The solution to those problems is not to add in sentry guns. I understand that there is a strong temptation to turtle and base build in any RTS. In a normal RTS game that is fine because you will lose to the player expanding and taking more risks. But in an FPS/RTS that is bad, because it leads to frustration for the majority of players. Even if you end up winning the game as aliens, it's no fun to fight against marines turtling with sentry guns.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They key argument FOR turrets as it helps marines, defend their instant win button, the argument against them is always poor, 'player vs structure blabla', yet people forget the game is a strategy game. if it was anything like say... tf2, shur, that argument works, but no. just no.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game is like TF2. It's an FPS game first and foremost. Fun of the players on the ground should be the priority.
Even when the sentries were limited (by the mod on the HBZ servers) to 4 per room, a com could pretty much defend marine start from even a mass of skulks. It was pretty easy to cover the majority of your important buildings in base with the sentries by putting them up against the wall etc. It gave plenty of time for the marines to defend the base easily and it became pointless for skulks to even go to marine start. It just created more stalemate games and boring gameplay.
The turrets should be bad at tracking fast moving targets, but they should have a movement "threshold". So a Skulk bounding from one side of the room to another should be incredibly difficult for a turret to hit, but a skulk moving side to side no more than 5 feet at a time should be just as good as stationery. The greater the range of movement, the less tracking.
That way, a turret can still effectively cover a group of marines, if say, a fade was to blink in and start hitting. As long as the target to cover remains relatively stationery, anything trying to deal sustained damage to it should be hit by the turret (anything melee of course).
There are basically two groups here:
Group 1 believes that sentries must be very weak because otherwise there will allegedly be sentry spam, and none of the alien counters (attack powernode, bilebomb, lerk gas, etc) are enough to alleviate this. Hydras are relatively weak so sentries have to be as well.
Group 2 believes that Sentries are useless if weak like that, they should be able to defend against a lone skulk effectively, and that a sentry cap combined with the various alien counters is enough to stop sentry spam.
Now if we are talking about hard caps on sentries, I think the whole sentry spam argument is done for anyway. If there's a hard cap on something, you cannot "spam all over the map", period. Make the sentry cap 8 turrets total, and I want to see how you can "spam the map" with them. Let's not forget that in addition to a possibly prohibitively high price, sentries can also be nullified by lerks, gorges, etc. (Silly idea I just wanna throw in: Gorge spit could dazzle a sentry for 3 seconds... I still miss the fade bile rockets. Those were awesome and another excellent counter for turret farms in NS1)
So can we please stop the "OMG SENTRY SPAM!" rage and work from a total cap of sentries and/or a high sentry price, and go from there? Or maybe make sentries require expensive research, so it's a path you have to commit yourself to if you want them.
Just wondering, is anyone against a hard cap on sentries at all?
You dont want player vs AI ? Then why have mass drifter rushes been allowed to exist for so long ? You think marines find that fun ? Thats a viable strategy? but sentries are not ? Why are hydras and whips still around ? You want player vs player dont you ? and not player vs structure ? Is it fun for marines to get beacon'd back to base when theres only 1 skulk ? Is it fun losing an entire expansion or even your main base when aliens do a surprise rush and take out the obs/powernode before the comm can react ???? (very effective with drifter enzyme cloud). Is it fun for aliens when they die to mines ? or is dieing to sentries less fun than dieing to mines ? Is it fun to die to spores ? is it fun to have your energy get gimped by the flamethrower ?
The balance in this game is totally screwed up, marines spawn way too quick, and if they nerf marine spawn times then marines will almost certainly need defensive sentries because theres no way they will be able to hold 2 bases like how they currently do with phase gates and beacon (which only works now because marines spawn so quick).
It seems like the argument against sentries relies heavily on the old overpowered sentries that ruined pub games. Of course those sentries werent fun, but to go so far as support essentially removing them from the game / make them a fluff feature, its idiocracy. Sentries played a role in NS1 and it wasnt like everyone was ###### and complaining about how unfun they were.
And its not like people want sentry spam back, what part of this is so hard to understand ? I think what is really going on is that people get all defensive when others dont agree with them, and so they respond by rejecting anything that doesn't conform to their views, no matter how much sense it makes. Even this post of mine, it wont even register in their brains.
Group 2 believes that Sentries are useless if weak like that, they should be able to defend against a lone skulk effectively, and that a sentry cap combined with the various alien counters is enough to stop sentry spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm in group 2.5, have some kind of local/global cap while also giving Sentries capped ammunition that regenerates slowly. This effectively turns Sentries into self-reloading mines. A sentry will kill the first skulk or two easily, but once it runs out of ammo it's a sitting duck that can be eaten or ignored (until they regenerate enough to start firing again). Which is how the guns worked in Aliens if you'll recall (sans the regenerating).
This makes Sentries work great at being Sentries while not being as good as having an actual marine there.
(Yes I know that sentries were ammo based in an old build but they were refilled by the commander clicking on them, which is a bad way to implement an otherwise potentially good idea)
e: Also, I still don't get the "PvP not PvStructure" thing. I have loads of PvP games to play, the RTS/FPS hybrid thing is what I play NS2 for. If I want to play pure FPS I can just play TF2 or something. A game which, despite being described as being an FPS/Hat Simulator hybrid, still has functioning turrets.
Dude, no one is arguing that those aspects of the game are fine but sentries are not. In fact the majority of the things you mentioned are actually common gripes with the game. Not many people like mines, or the flamethrower or mass driffters. Just because the game has some bad mechanics does not justify adding more. I agree that the game would be better without these things.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems like the argument against sentries relies heavily on the old overpowered sentries that ruined pub games. Of course those sentries werent fun, but to go so far as support essentially removing them from the game / make them a fluff feature, its idiocracy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point is that it doesn't matter how powerful they are, they are just not fun regardless. Of course when they were spammed all across the map it was horrible. But do hydras and whips make the game more fun? Wouldn't it be better if you were fighting against the gorge himself rather than mini turrets? Does adding more buildings into the game, especially ones that can attack players really serve to make the game more enjoyable? I don't think so.
Firstly you have pub play. Past issues we have seen is that you have turtling, spam and this ruins the PVP gameplay. Balancing based on damage doesn't scale well, because people will just end up buying more, and if they are made more expensive people won't use them. We have seen this cycle through development. Whilst 1/2 turrets work nicely, there is no way of preventing people from placing more.
So essentially we need a way of hard capping them based on a solutions that scale in a way that works on any map.
With competitive play the cost needs to be worth it so that it gives marines a real advantage. I have recently come to believe that the better the tech, the larger the advantages and disadvantages of using this tech should become and the narrower the solutions for tackling it should become.
So an EXO for example is really powerful, but has a big issue with skulks or multiple skulks which are a lower life form. I like this form of almost 'hard countering' as Charlie describes it.
Basically you need a distinct advantage with the unit, but which requires a particular method to take it down as to offset the cost and actually give it an advantage.
You also see more depth and strategy in this manner, as it is not just about throwing as much damage at a unit as possible, but requires forward and strategic/tactical thinking.
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That is why I thought the best solution for sentrys would be for them to have two modes, and hard capping them to the number of CCs you have. I.e. 1 per CC.
<b>Mode 1)</b> 360 FOV, low damage, 100% accuracy, designed to harass and support marines or allow them time to return to base in time to save a structure.
I would perhaps balance this based on its ability to kill 1 skulk before it destroys the observatory.
This '360' mode would work well for pubs. Whilst placement would still matter, they can shoot 360 to protect themselves so it is more of a place and forget.
A lone skulk wouldn't be able to kill a sentry if it went for it, but two might.
<b>Mode 2)</b> 30 FOV, very high damage, 100% accuracy, designed to be used in corridors as a way of blocking alien movement though the map.
This mode is designed so that it works as a brick wall for the marine side, forcing aliens to take longer paths through the map. Because of the limited FOV, getting behind them would be easy, but the aliens require work and time to do this. Having to flank using vents and longer routes through the map.
Once down however, it would open up the map. Using them in rooms would be useless as the FOV would be so limited, so there is no chance of them being OP. Adding a laser and perhaps visual representation of their FOV could aide players on how they tackle them.
I would see this being used in competitive play, because it would enable marines to use turrets tactically and effectively as part of their plan for the map. Being dropped in specific locations before attacking. Even supporting ARC routes.
Think common sniper spots, like those in CS.
I also think they should be placeable early on, and not linked to the robotics factory.
This is the sort of solution that addresses everyone's concerns as best as I can think of.
This 'it's an FPS first' notion is somewhat ridiculous, given how the FPS gameplay heavily revolves around what happens on the RTS level. The RTS level sets the stage, it enables the actors, and it's at this level that adding depth and trade-offs will enable a more rich and varied FPS experience as well.
Also, I think a per powernode cap or per TF cap is a better solution than a global one. Maybe 3 is better than 4, since supposedly 4 can give 360* coverage where as 3 can not.
I'm fine with this, as long as there is a blind spot that enable the lone skulk to overcome such a setup in maybe 10 seconds. (Enough time for the marines to react.)
@Runteh: Your Mode2 is overpowered. There is nothing that hinders a com from placing 2 sentries so they cover each other AND other buildings. Not to mention, that you could easily shut down complete parts of the map so that there is no way to circle around the sentries.
Yes, perhaps once you had 4 CCs you could place them all in one area, but then 95% of the map is now vulnerable.
I'm sure the Fade could blink past anyway, and if they hurt each other on hit... problem solved. You could easily sneak up using one of the sentrys as cover.
Basically it regenerates its own ammo over time and reloads the sentry, but it takes time to regen the ammo thus preventing a constant flow of bullets.
If anyone remembers having to reload sentrys as commander, they'll know how annoying that was.
A good defensive structure is a stopgap measure designed to delay assaults upon a location long enough for reinforcement to arrive. While it'll take out the occasional lone skulk (or marine) fine, once you hit anything that could be described as "organised" you need to send in the marines (or fades as the case may be). It's not a player replacement, it just buys time for the actual players to get there and provides support once they do. Ammo-based solutions work great for that because, as above, it'll shoot one roaming skulk fine (and two will shoot two etc), but if anything more serious shows up all it will do is delay them a bit, maybe take one or two of them out and foce them to run back from spawn.
Heck, even if one carapaced skulk just keeps coming back over and over after each spawn (or a regen skulk is dodging in and regenning behind a wall, or a celerity skulk keeps streaking across the room ahead of it's bullet lines) they'll eventually just wear the poor thing out unless a marine comes to assist. Which is exactly what we want: a structure that distracts the attackers from the "important" structures until the real players arrive but is ultimately useless if they never actually do.
Don't forget the TF restricting their placement and providing a natural blind spot.
Granted, in NS1, turrets were for pubs only to hold an area. Pro were godo enough and mobile enough they didn't plunk down the 30res for the TF+turrets unless it was siege time.
I think turrets could be revisited. Sentry Spam used to be a problem due to a few issues, mostly because you could place them anywhere and they didn't have a strong counter. Now an Onos is a pretty solid counter (didn't exist in previous iteration), Bile Bomb is effective, and we have ways of limiting their spammability (caps, locality, blind spots, cost, and limited ammo are all legitimate systems, mix and match to your pleasure).
This is a classic example of how small changes in gameplay features can drastically alter the balance of a complex game like NS. I'd hope for an iteration cycle just on this issue, but we'll see what the devs have time for.