Should pressing F4 be frowned upon?
YoungTrotsky
Join Date: 2007-03-09 Member: 60307Members
Join Date: 2007-03-09 Member: 60307Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Seems like a legit way to end the game IMO</div>I was wondering why so many people seem to think it's completely unacceptable to go to the readyroom to end the game when it's virtually certain your team is going to slowly lose over the next 10-15 minutes. I've played on a server where the admins have even decided to ban this behaviour. It seems most people think it unfair as it "steals" a win from the other team.
Hopefully the devs will incorporate a win condition when this happens, in NS1 I think there was a server variable that admins could set where a team won if the other team was down by x number of players, i think it was usually set to 4 but this would obviously need adjusting depending on the server size.
I know some people feel that no game is necessarily lost before the final hive/CC is destroyed, I understand this mentality but I think we should be able to concede defeat and let the other team have their win and just get on with another game. Some of us have to fit in 30 minutes here and 15 minutes there and don't want to spend that whole time gradually losing ground.
What do people think, shouldn't you be able to surrender when you feel the other team has won and you would rather start the next round than spend 10 minutes going through the motions? I play starcraft and 99% of games end this way, which isn't a problem and no one expects you to just sit there and get ground into dust when you've almost certainly lost. The winning team should still feel just as good about their win.
Cheers.
Hopefully the devs will incorporate a win condition when this happens, in NS1 I think there was a server variable that admins could set where a team won if the other team was down by x number of players, i think it was usually set to 4 but this would obviously need adjusting depending on the server size.
I know some people feel that no game is necessarily lost before the final hive/CC is destroyed, I understand this mentality but I think we should be able to concede defeat and let the other team have their win and just get on with another game. Some of us have to fit in 30 minutes here and 15 minutes there and don't want to spend that whole time gradually losing ground.
What do people think, shouldn't you be able to surrender when you feel the other team has won and you would rather start the next round than spend 10 minutes going through the motions? I play starcraft and 99% of games end this way, which isn't a problem and no one expects you to just sit there and get ground into dust when you've almost certainly lost. The winning team should still feel just as good about their win.
Cheers.
Comments
To be clear, F4ing shouldn't be removed because it serves its own purpose but there should also be a means to end the game through some kind of majority vote within the game.
unless there is a surrender vote, the commander should be the one deciding this imo. after asking the team if anyone wants to play on that is.
currently, marine commanders recycle IPs as a more reliable way of surrendering than f4-ing. aliens don't have such a mechanic though.
The other side of the coin is that there are 2 sides in the match, and its not really much fun if your enemy surrenders just as you climb into that duel mini exo, or finally the Khamm has researched spores... you want to play with your new toys, not see the ready room again.
If the commanders could call for a vote and let the players decided it was over it would be a bit more fair, but at the same time its not much fun if your opponents surrender just when you start to get the upper hand... and players would want to surrender if they are not outright winning.
Currently the games seem to go through phases... start of game Aliens are stronger, Skulk rushes can win a game instantly, Marines get stronger with more res and quicker upgrades, then Fades come in and swing the match in the Aliens favour, then weap 3 /shotties/jps turn it around again, then Onos may show up and change the balance, then Exos come online... back and forth.
My point is that some may see the Fades domination as a lost game, and not be prepared to wait for the upgrades and weapons to counter Fades... a case of ah crap fades, game over man , game over.
<!--quoteo(post=1982048:date=Sep 23 2012, 10:55 AM:name=YoungTrotsky)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (YoungTrotsky @ Sep 23 2012, 10:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->mp_autoconcede was the cvar in NS1 and was normally set to 4 so when the difference in team sizes hit 4 the bigger team won the round and everyone got returned to the readyroom. This avoided the annoying scenarios where a team was struggling on because half the team hit F4 or left the server, which seems to happen a lot atm in NS2, really hope this feature gets put in soon!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or that.
I haven't encountered this issue, people generally seem to F4 or disconnect when they've been pinned in their hive/base for a prolonged period without making any sort of progress, not just because they're failing to dominate. Do people really see much if this happening?
I've seen people who would rather mull around in marine base than phase in to protect a forward phasegate just because there's two Fades there. That's how easily some people give up. :)
Sounds cool. A surrender function would probably do more to promote these kinds of situations to be honest. Currently, you just f4 and decide the outcome for the entire team. If you could merely start a surrender vote, it would probably promote more all-in tactics which becomes increasingly more strategically wise the closer you are to losing.
1% of the time, yes the losing team can come back to win like you noticed. 99% of the time they don't and a surrender vote would be a godsend to us players who want to start a new match we can actually win. If you remove F4 people will just leave the server to quit instead. If you kick players who F4, many of us who find the practice legitimate will stop playing on your servers. A surrender vote or autoconcede function is the best solution.
2/3 players need for surrendering.
But OFC this should only be unlocked after 20-30min gameplay.
Yea but dont forget the fact that if this becomes the cultural norm within the community teams will end up just F4ing every time, and that oh so satisfying push into the Hive or Marine base that everyone loves and earns will be robbed from them.
Just let the winning team have what they earned?
Now ofc if the enemy team just wont end it or cant and its been an hour.. ok.. thats where F4ing or voting makes sense.
But I see most F4ing these days as a means to accelerate the end of the round (to the point of robbing the winning team of their climactic ending they've earned) so that they have a new chance of winning. Its just that simple, <i>they want to win and not lose and will quit at the first sign of losing.</i>
But there's no way to ensure this type of proper sportsmanship.. unless i kick them.. which.. i may just end up doing because i don't want to encourage poor sportsmanship or have those types of players around anyways..
Just let the winning team have what they earned?
Now ofc if the enemy team just wont end it or cant and its been an hour.. ok.. thats where F4ing or voting makes sense.
But I see most F4ing these days as a means to accelerate the end of the round (to the point of robbing the winning team of their climactic ending they've earned) so that they have a new chance of winning. Its just that simple, <i>they want to win and not lose and will quit at the first sign of losing.</i>
But there's no way to ensure this type of proper sportsmanship.. unless i kick them.. which.. i may just end up doing because i don't want to encourage poor sportsmanship or have those types of players around anyways..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All the more reason there needs to be a more formal solution than F4ing. I wouldn't mind temporarily disabling F4ing for like the first 20 min of a match if there was a proper surrender vote/autoconcede function.
Also, I guess I'm a bit different from other NS2 players because I don't really get any satisfaction from the actual ending of a match (i.e. the killing of the last hive/CS), but the previous decisions and actions that lead to that victory. Finishing off the last players or structures seem more like a tedious formality once one side is obviously the winner.
Best case scenario if you don't let them F4 is they end up just trolling around in the round until it's over.
For aliens F4 generally does the trick. There's no need to make an even more 'apparent' mechanism to give up as a team. Though it would be good if games automatically ended once 2/3rds of the team quits or f4s.
Just let the winning team have what they earned?
Now ofc if the enemy team just wont end it or cant and its been an hour.. ok.. thats where F4ing or voting makes sense.
But I see most F4ing these days as a means to accelerate the end of the round (to the point of robbing the winning team of their climactic ending they've earned) so that they have a new chance of winning. Its just that simple, <i>they want to win and not lose and will quit at the first sign of losing.</i>
But there's no way to ensure this type of proper sportsmanship.. unless i kick them.. which.. i may just end up doing because i don't want to encourage poor sportsmanship or have those types of players around anyways..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it does lead to a lot of robbed victories, in my experience teams don't F4 as long as the game is progressing, even if they are losing. It's when this progression stalls and nothing really happens for 5 minutes or more and you're just trapped in base/hive and neither team is advancing any more. As long as a big push comes with momentum and the team keeps pushing into the other teams territory people seem happy to stick around to the end, I know I don't mind losing under those circumstances. A lot of you really don't give your fellow players a lot of credit, but maybe I've just been lucky with the servers I play on...
:shrug:
As long as that doesnt become the norm, i'm okay with whatever implementation.
Thats what i always hear.
So yes, i think it should be frowned upon.