So do you often see single football players run off the field when they think the game is lost? Or is it much more of a decision made by the coach, the captain or the whole team? Sorry but you missed the point.
<!--quoteo(post=1983378:date=Sep 26 2012, 01:57 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Sep 26 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So do you often see single football players run off the field when they think the game is lost? Or is it much more of a decision made by the coach, the captain or the whole team? Sorry but you missed the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Analogies like this are stupid. Public online games have nothing to do with football. People play games in football not just to win, but for the fans, for pride, for advertising, for the show, etc. etc. People actually pay money to get in the stadium so they can watch a game (even if their team is losing), not to have people walking off the field. Additionally, football players are bound by contracts involving - you know, real life money and stuff ;-) .
A more appropriate comparison to football would be professional e-sports. And if you're playing a professional match, with viewers, with advertisers, with fans, etc., rage-quitting might have similar consequences to football players walking off the field. See here: <a href="http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/NaNiwa%27s_Blizzard_Cup_Controversy" target="_blank">http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/NaNi...Cup_Controversy</a>
However, we're talking about pub matches here. Hell, even in e-sports people call "gg" LONG before the game is "over," because like OP said, going through the motions is simply a stupid waste of time. Check this for example: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-g2SlTKGcQ" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-g2SlTKGcQ</a>
I think the sentiments that some people have that "we can still win this" come from FPS games where a single person can actually turn the game around in a clutch or something. That should just not happen in a game like NS2, because it's not a FPS game like counter-strike. If you don't have the res, you don't have the tech that the other team has.
Can a marine team with rifles and no jetpacks win against a team with fades, oni, lerks with 3-hive upgrades (umbra, stomp, blink, vortex, spores, etc. etc.)? Maybe. But that'd be like a team with knives winning against a team with guns in counter-strike.
People forget the RTS/tech aspect of the game sometimes... RTS games are usually like a math equation. You lose a few minor or one major battle, and usually it only gets worse from there. It is possible to have close games turn around though, but sometimes it's just completely hopeless.
<!--quoteo(post=1983378:date=Sep 26 2012, 11:57 AM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Sep 26 2012, 11:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So do you often see single football players run off the field when they think the game is lost? Or is it much more of a decision made by the coach, the captain or the whole team? Sorry but you missed the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, if there is just a lawn and some people start playing football for fun u can decide to join any time(if they like u) and leave the game :> . So, please stop those sensless compares between professional sports and public computer-games.
man....there are thousands of games out there where u can end the game early. Also in Team-games. Dawn of war 2 for example. Someone starts the vote, the rest can accept or decline. All members have to accept (3vs3 is the highest mode). And it works fine.
In NS2 i would say 66 % or 75 % have to accept a vote in public games.
<!--quoteo(post=1983391:date=Sep 26 2012, 04:21 PM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Sep 26 2012, 04:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, if there is just a lawn and some people start playing football for fun u can decide to join any time(if they like u) and leave the game :> . So, please stop those sensless compares between professional sports and public computer-games.
man....there are thousands of games out there where u can end the game early. Also in Team-games. Dawn of war 2 for example. Someone starts the vote, the rest can accept or decline. All members have to accept (3vs3 is the highest mode). And it works fine.
In NS2 i would say 66 % or 75 % have to accept a vote in public games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would you want to play the rest of a game if 3-4 people on your side have left? You're just going to get stomped over and over again till you lose bitterly. Are you a masochist? The majority of people aren't and would prefer to play fair games.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1983378:date=Sep 26 2012, 12:57 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Sep 26 2012, 12:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So do you often see single football players run off the field when they think the game is lost? Or is it much more of a decision made by the coach, the captain or the whole team? Sorry but you missed the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've seen people leave casual PUG of sports before. If you're not having fun (the purpose of a casual game) while playing a PUG of basketball, you can say your done and leave. Happens all the time. Now the analogy between a professional sports match (primary school, college, or pro) would be comp NS2 and comp NS2 teams frequently gg once they known they've lost but before the game has technically ended.
You are the ones bringing professional sport up all the time and I already stated that i only made the sport analogy because of team spirit. Moreover you are mixing things up: If a player in your casual basketball game leaves, usually another one joins in, or are you playing short-handed then? If people start idling in the ready room, they also block slots in the server so no new players can join. If you dont have fun, leave the server. Bringing up this Dawn of War example only backs up what I have been saying all along: If you want to surrender, your whole team has to agree with it.
Requiring the whole team to surrender would be crazy, a large majority should suffice. Look at MOBA games like HoN and LoL, you need a majority of the team to agree before you can surrender. Comparing NS2 with your average (large team) RTS or with MOBA type games makes a lot more sense than comparing it with FPS, simply because the victory conditions and 'slippery slope' takes place on the RTS level. It doesn't take a rocket scientist in NS2 to tell when a game is REALLY lost, and at that point playing on is just a waste of time.
(Playing on because it's good practice is a silly argument, you can practice just fine the next round)
<!--quoteo(post=1983396:date=Sep 26 2012, 12:38 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 26 2012, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983396"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would you want to play the rest of a game if 3-4 people on your side have left? You're just going to get stomped over and over again till you lose bitterly. Are you a masochist? The majority of people aren't and would prefer to play fair games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmm? U should read my last 2 posts again. Damn. I thougt friendly fire is off o_O .
So we can agree that simply leaving the game when you are losing (especially going to the RR and block a slot) is not ok, because last time i checked, leavers in Dota got banned.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Nobody I know, in my experience of NS1 or NS2 has ever left 'just because they were losing'.
You seem incapable of realising the difference between LOSING and LOST.
You can be losing all you want, it's good for your ego to lose once in a while, but to carry on playing once you have lost (as decided by the RTS side of the game) is ridiculous. Every single competitive NS2 team will GG when they have lost the RTS game. Watch any livestream and you will see this. If the RTS game is not lost, then they carry on playing.
Really man, you need to understand the difference. If you have played as much NS as you say you should realise this by now, or have you never been near a comm chair? Every RTS has an auto-endgame function once the RTS game has been won, without all units/buildings being destroyed.
If the RTS game is still open, then the fight goes on to the bitter end, whether you are losing or not. It is just when you have ALREADY LOST that you F4.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited September 2012
@Soul: Yea, but in those comp games generally they either talk it over and agree or someone running and or commanding makes the call - regardless of which this is not how it is in public games - which is what this thread is about.
So when one or two people f4 in a public game, it discourages the rest of the team like a dispiriting virus, making the chance for a comeback less likely especially with the ever growing disparity of players. This is like a forced vote in some ways, potentially negatively impacting the chances your team had. (i've played in many games that had successful comebacks even after everyone starting typing GG) Its why i'll try to motivate the losing team instead and encourage a skulk rush or some crazy scheme.
<b>tldr</b>: its a defeatist attitude that can spread and more than often lately, in my observation, its been started by the rash judgement of someone who may not wish to continue an attempt even if there was a way they didn't see. But <i>even if</i> it was unrecoverable.. you've already lost, why not just have an ounce of sportsmanship/formality and allow the other team the victory they earned - in case they want it?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited September 2012
Yes, the winning side has fun, and the other side loses and it can be boring. This is how games naturally play out sometimes, whether its sports irl or pc games, and throwing in the towel because you're bored typically isn't that big of a deal until your actions negatively impact the rest of your team to the point of them having to follow suit because they are now at a disadvantage - moreso because there's no one "on the bench" to replace you because you didn't just leave the server you just sat on the field waiting for a game where you weren't subjected to boredom because you weren't on the winning team.
I'm sorry if that all sounds mean, I don't intend it to, but really you could have a bit more sportsmanship for the sake of the other team's "fun" - <i>the same element you seek and yet dont seem to care if you disrupt. </i> Next time try to rally up the team for a comeback and if all is simply lost and you cant be bothered to wait, just quit the server so someone can take your place?
Well.. that's my viewpoint on it at least. :shrug:
disclaimer: <!--quoteo(post=1982129:date=Sep 23 2012, 12:43 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 23 2012, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now ofc if the enemy team just wont end it or cant and its been an hour.. ok.. thats where F4ing or voting makes sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think there is no sense in discussing that. You can't really change it. Some systems like tweadle mentioned may better the situation but you can't have a real solution. If a player is bored by the round, you can't stop him of pressing F4. If you do, he will get bored with the server and leave. If all server prohibit this, he will get bored with the game and quit.
As simple as that: You can't force someone to play with you.
Personally I try to hang on to the game as long as I can. Because giving up is the first step to losing. Low moral decides more games than skill. But as others have stated, there are situations where the other team is simply racking up kills and don't even try to attack the last CC or Hive. It gets me bored very fast and then I F4/Quit. If the team in such a situation is desperately trying to end the game, there is no need to F4. Just idle in a dark corner and give them their victory. I have no problem with that. And in such a situation there is no difference in being idle or F4. Despite, that the enemy team gets its victory-feeling
Link? All I could find was that leavers are banned from some dota <i>league</i>.
Leagues can have their own rules, who cares. If a game bans people for leaving though, basically screw that game.
I'd like to see an official votekick system though (with a temporary X minute ban when votekicked, or rest of round/next game). It'll probably be modded in anyway if not official.
Leavers in dota get placed in a leavers queue, to play with other leavers (a real hell-hole), if you rack up enough 'leaves' though I think they can ban you eventually. (Probably just small temp bans at first). Dota also has no surrender system, though it's a special case in my opinion, games like LoL and HoN do and I'm personally of the opinion it's for the better. (The times I ended up wasting time in a clearly lost game because dota doesn't allow me to leave are FAR FAR FAR more numerous than the few times I wanted to just give up but ended up winning in the end)
The comparison doesn't really hold either way, NS 2 is much less complex than DOTA, there's less factors at play and therefore it's much much easier in NS 2 to tell when a game is really over. (It's a pretty simple RTS really)
A voting system is fine, just need a big enough majority to support it in my opinion.
<a href="http://blinkgaming.net/forums/topic/5707-dota-rules/" target="_blank">http://blinkgaming.net/forums/topic/5707-dota-rules/</a> I dont play Dota but afaik Blink gaming is one of the bigger hosters in bnet.
Comments
Analogies like this are stupid. Public online games have nothing to do with football. People play games in football not just to win, but for the fans, for pride, for advertising, for the show, etc. etc. People actually pay money to get in the stadium so they can watch a game (even if their team is losing), not to have people walking off the field. Additionally, football players are bound by contracts involving - you know, real life money and stuff ;-) .
A more appropriate comparison to football would be professional e-sports. And if you're playing a professional match, with viewers, with advertisers, with fans, etc., rage-quitting might have similar consequences to football players walking off the field. See here: <a href="http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/NaNiwa%27s_Blizzard_Cup_Controversy" target="_blank">http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/NaNi...Cup_Controversy</a>
However, we're talking about pub matches here. Hell, even in e-sports people call "gg" LONG before the game is "over," because like OP said, going through the motions is simply a stupid waste of time. Check this for example: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-g2SlTKGcQ" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-g2SlTKGcQ</a>
I think the sentiments that some people have that "we can still win this" come from FPS games where a single person can actually turn the game around in a clutch or something. That should just not happen in a game like NS2, because it's not a FPS game like counter-strike. If you don't have the res, you don't have the tech that the other team has.
Can a marine team with rifles and no jetpacks win against a team with fades, oni, lerks with 3-hive upgrades (umbra, stomp, blink, vortex, spores, etc. etc.)? Maybe. But that'd be like a team with knives winning against a team with guns in counter-strike.
People forget the RTS/tech aspect of the game sometimes... RTS games are usually like a math equation. You lose a few minor or one major battle, and usually it only gets worse from there. It is possible to have close games turn around though, but sometimes it's just completely hopeless.
Yes, if there is just a lawn and some people start playing football for fun u can decide to join any time(if they like u) and leave the game :> . So, please stop those sensless compares between professional sports and public computer-games.
man....there are thousands of games out there where u can end the game early. Also in Team-games. Dawn of war 2 for example. Someone starts the vote, the rest can accept or decline. All members have to accept (3vs3 is the highest mode). And it works fine.
In NS2 i would say 66 % or 75 % have to accept a vote in public games.
man....there are thousands of games out there where u can end the game early. Also in Team-games. Dawn of war 2 for example. Someone starts the vote, the rest can accept or decline. All members have to accept (3vs3 is the highest mode). And it works fine.
In NS2 i would say 66 % or 75 % have to accept a vote in public games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would you want to play the rest of a game if 3-4 people on your side have left? You're just going to get stomped over and over again till you lose bitterly. Are you a masochist? The majority of people aren't and would prefer to play fair games.
I've seen people leave casual PUG of sports before. If you're not having fun (the purpose of a casual game) while playing a PUG of basketball, you can say your done and leave. Happens all the time. Now the analogy between a professional sports match (primary school, college, or pro) would be comp NS2 and comp NS2 teams frequently gg once they known they've lost but before the game has technically ended.
If you dont have fun, leave the server.
Bringing up this Dawn of War example only backs up what I have been saying all along: If you want to surrender, your whole team has to agree with it.
(Playing on because it's good practice is a silly argument, you can practice just fine the next round)
hmm? U should read my last 2 posts again. Damn. I thougt friendly fire is off o_O .
You seem incapable of realising the difference between LOSING and LOST.
You can be losing all you want, it's good for your ego to lose once in a while, but to carry on playing once you have lost (as decided by the RTS side of the game) is ridiculous. Every single competitive NS2 team will GG when they have lost the RTS game. Watch any livestream and you will see this. If the RTS game is not lost, then they carry on playing.
Really man, you need to understand the difference. If you have played as much NS as you say you should realise this by now, or have you never been near a comm chair? Every RTS has an auto-endgame function once the RTS game has been won, without all units/buildings being destroyed.
If the RTS game is still open, then the fight goes on to the bitter end, whether you are losing or not. It is just when you have ALREADY LOST that you F4.
Comprende?
So when one or two people f4 in a public game, it discourages the rest of the team like a dispiriting virus, making the chance for a comeback less likely especially with the ever growing disparity of players. This is like a forced vote in some ways, potentially negatively impacting the chances your team had. (i've played in many games that had successful comebacks even after everyone starting typing GG)
Its why i'll try to motivate the losing team instead and encourage a skulk rush or some crazy scheme.
<b>tldr</b>: its a defeatist attitude that can spread and more than often lately, in my observation, its been started by the rash judgement of someone who may not wish to continue an attempt even if there was a way they didn't see. But <i>even if</i> it was unrecoverable.. you've already lost, why not just have an ounce of sportsmanship/formality and allow the other team the victory they earned - in case they want it?
This is how games naturally play out sometimes, whether its sports irl or pc games, and throwing in the towel because you're bored typically isn't that big of a deal until your actions negatively impact the rest of your team to the point of them having to follow suit because they are now at a disadvantage - moreso because there's no one "on the bench" to replace you because you didn't just leave the server you just sat on the field waiting for a game where you weren't subjected to boredom because you weren't on the winning team.
I'm sorry if that all sounds mean, I don't intend it to, but really you could have a bit more sportsmanship for the sake of the other team's "fun" - <i>the same element you seek and yet dont seem to care if you disrupt. </i>
Next time try to rally up the team for a comeback and if all is simply lost and you cant be bothered to wait, just quit the server so someone can take your place?
Well.. that's my viewpoint on it at least. :shrug:
disclaimer:
<!--quoteo(post=1982129:date=Sep 23 2012, 12:43 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 23 2012, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now ofc if the enemy team just wont end it or cant and its been an hour.. ok.. thats where F4ing or voting makes sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As simple as that: You can't force someone to play with you.
Personally I try to hang on to the game as long as I can. Because giving up is the first step to losing. Low moral decides more games than skill.
But as others have stated, there are situations where the other team is simply racking up kills and don't even try to attack the last CC or Hive. It gets me bored very fast and then I F4/Quit. If the team in such a situation is desperately trying to end the game, there is no need to F4. Just idle in a dark corner and give them their victory. I have no problem with that. And in such a situation there is no difference in being idle or F4. Despite, that the enemy team gets its victory-feeling
Link? All I could find was that leavers are banned from some dota <i>league</i>.
Leagues can have their own rules, who cares. If a game bans people for leaving though, basically screw that game.
I'd like to see an official votekick system though (with a temporary X minute ban when votekicked, or rest of round/next game). It'll probably be modded in anyway if not official.
The comparison doesn't really hold either way, NS 2 is much less complex than DOTA, there's less factors at play and therefore it's much much easier in NS 2 to tell when a game is really over. (It's a pretty simple RTS really)
A voting system is fine, just need a big enough majority to support it in my opinion.
I dont play Dota but afaik Blink gaming is one of the bigger hosters in bnet.