<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It'd be cool if someone put together a highlight reel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> might be a bit difficult concerning the massive amount of fast-paced footage, but it'd be nice to have indeed :)
not sure if this is a viable idea, but i also love to see some sort of shout-out/award/whatever for either a team or an individual player for doing something very awesome during the cup (nothing fixed, something spontanious). like someone "getting the mustache" for still winning after a reslock (not necessarily a good example but you get the idea).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love the commentators too. Great job guys!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes, was very entertaining!
i ve to say, that the commentors like hugh and wasabi do a very very good job in case of commentating for casual gamers. But they do miss a lot of important action throughout a match. I really admire their skill to make this game very exciting and its a pleasure to watch the stream. Its very very difficult to pay attention on one thing thats going, while another push is happening. In NS2 there are often hapening more then two pushes at the same time ... not missing the actual important action is crucial. The lack of experience makes the casters often fokus on the wrong aspect of the game. There are often only disctractions going on at a certain time, like shooting the mainhive, while the other remaining marine team walks into the second hive. Pointing out, that this will force the spawnwave to spawn in the mainhive but not at the second hive thats going to be attacked pretty soon is very important to understand the strategic teamplay. I just want to point out some problems. It is very hard to focus and comment to the stuff thats going on... missing important action is kinda inevitable. Maybe just pointing out the issue, will help commentating future matches.
I had this assumption that 5v5/6v6 fps games are really quite boring to watch due to the action being so spread out and hard to follow. Due to the top down spectating approach this has been removed and I find NS2 quite enjoyable to watch. My only wish now is for demo's / first person.
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
edited September 2012
Really good tournament with some amazing matches in it, loved to cast it!
For the finals I just made a quick cut-work from our stream (me and Zeikko casting)
Game 1: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gss3Kdq-R14" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gss3Kdq-R14</a> Game 2: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z988CE3M3jY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z988CE3M3jY</a> Game 3: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or0aqSIdJog" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or0aqSIdJog</a> Game 4: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZbQoQbVcpQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZbQoQbVcpQ</a>
(whole stream video here: <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/332424410" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/332424410</a> if interested)
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1978708:date=Sep 17 2012, 12:44 AM:name=Kasperle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kasperle @ Sep 17 2012, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i ve to say, that the commentors like hugh and wasabi do a very very good job in case of commentating for casual gamers. But they do miss a lot of important action throughout a match. I really admire their skill to make this game very exciting and its a pleasure to watch the stream. Its very very difficult to pay attention on one thing thats going, while another push is happening. In NS2 there are often hapening more then two pushes at the same time ... not missing the actual important action is crucial. The lack of experience makes the casters often fokus on the wrong aspect of the game. There are often only disctractions going on at a certain time, like shooting the mainhive, while the other remaining marine team walks into the second hive. Pointing out, that this will force the spawnwave to spawn in the mainhive but not at the second hive thats going to be attacked pretty soon is very important to understand the strategic teamplay. I just want to point out some problems. It is very hard to focus and comment to the stuff thats going on... missing important action is kinda inevitable. Maybe just pointing out the issue, will help commentating future matches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you tried watching the alternative stream? Maybe that offers the kind of casting you are looking for?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But they do miss a lot of important action throughout a match.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i think they are doing a good job overall, especially when there are big showdowns. but one thing i'd like to see improved for insight is the switch from overhead to freecam, it always seems to put the spectator in unfortunate freecam positions which often results in missing a few seconds. maybe make the freecam start out similar to the skycam, facing downward? that could prevent the spectator from being disoriented at first.
<!--quoteo(post=1978729:date=Sep 17 2012, 09:14 AM:name=Laosh'Ra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laosh'Ra @ Sep 17 2012, 09:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978729"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->thanks for those links.
i think they are doing a good job overall, especially when there are big showdowns. but one thing i'd like to see improved for insight is the switch from overhead to freecam, it always seems to put the spectator in unfortunate freecam positions which often results in missing a few seconds. maybe make the freecam start out similar to the skycam, facing downward? that could prevent the spectator from being disoriented at first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No its just bad camera work most of the time although i'm sure hugh will work it out eventually. He's focusing on trying to emulate that fixed spec camera position per room that just doesn't work when your trying to show the actual combat. Fixed camera views designed to show off the beauty of a room and variable combat positions/situations will never go well together - remember we are trying to spec the players, not the room.
zeikko i catually did :D . u did miss some important things aswell. Far more less then ns2hd and wasabi but still u did miss some action. Its hard, i dont judge u because of that, but still ... it doesnt changes the facts ;) . E.g. ryyyan did attack atrium mainhive at some point... which looked like he was forcing the spawn in atrium. My opportunity is, that i only have to watch, i dont have to commentate it. I think i would miss far more action if i had to commentate it aswell.
Kasperle I appreciate your comments, however.... casting is no simple task.... a lot of people assume its easy to look at a screen and not miss any of these spots that we did... Thats just not the case. We miss things sure, but our most important task at this time is really explaining the game, there are so many new players that are watching these streams and people who havent played the game yet, so our job is two fold in explaining the how and whys but also catching the action... Also unlike a lot of casted games like starcraft a lot of those casters get the opportunity to be in the same place at the same time. I have no idea what hugh has on his screen at any given time, plus we work really hard to not step on each other which is another reason some stuff gets missed. These are always evolving (see what I did there?) and they will continue to get better! so many big things too come.
<!--quoteo(post=1978712:date=Sep 16 2012, 06:47 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Sep 16 2012, 06:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had this assumption that 5v5/6v6 fps games are really quite boring to watch due to the action being so spread out and hard to follow. Due to the top down spectating approach this has been removed and I find NS2 quite enjoyable to watch. My only wish now is for demo's / first person.
Well done to the commentators + players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, there is a very basic record option right now, some players claim they have fps loss with that on. I know its a post-1.0 priority to put in some demo recording features. How awesome would it be to be able to download any of the 12 players PoV's and watch it while listening to a cast with overhead view?
Really? I thought that's what nexzil was doing this entire tournament. SPB should be flattered I guess, imitation being the sincerest form of flattery and all.
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
<!--quoteo(post=1978791:date=Sep 17 2012, 03:03 AM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Sep 17 2012, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978791"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, there is a very basic record option right now, some players claim they have fps loss with that on. I know its a post-1.0 priority to put in some demo recording features. How awesome would it be to be able to download any of the 12 players PoV's and watch it while listening to a cast with overhead view?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And how awesome would it even be being able to do some post-game analysis à la Day9? :)
This thread is disappointing. I mean what is the point of even playing competitively if after you win you don't go straight to the forums and wave your e-peen around?
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1978751:date=Sep 17 2012, 01:50 AM:name=wiry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wiry @ Sep 17 2012, 01:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Get one guy whose sole reason is to not mis any action on the map. And two guys commentating. This would enable you to focus more on the casting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For this to work it requires that the commentators and the "spotter"/cameraman are in the same room because otherwise the delay between the casters will make this impossible to work out.
Personally i'm not bothered if casters miss some solo rt/hive attacks, pg builds, etc. because the spectators can see this through the insight. What annoys me the most is if the camera is not where the main combat is happening since you don't get much out of the combat through the minimap.
There must be more ways than that to solve it. mapdude makes a private stream which is broadcasted without delay, which is watched by 2 commentators, which in turn rebroadcast what they see on their screen with a delay.
There are ways to solve it, but it does indeed take some effort. Also, spectators? In a cup match? No thanks.
It's such good news that hugh and wasabi didn't mind zups (teamwasabi) to be able to be in ready room and making sure he didn't join spectators at any time. since the score board was up 1% of the total game. But yeah wasabi, "who cares?".
If you're trying to work out kinks for a future tournament, specs is one them.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1978901:date=Sep 17 2012, 10:35 AM:name=wiry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wiry @ Sep 17 2012, 10:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There must be more ways than that to solve it. mapdude makes a private stream which is broadcasted without delay, which is watched by 2 commentators, which in turn rebroadcast what they see on their screen with a delay.
There are ways to solve it, but it does indeed take some effort. Also, spectators? In a cup match? No thanks.
It's such good news that hugh and wasabi didn't mind zups (teamwasabi) to be able to be in ready room and making sure he didn't join spectators at any time. since the score board was up 1% of the total game. But yeah wasabi, "who cares?".
If you're trying to work out kinks for a future tournament, specs is one them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All the streams i have been casting in have always had atleast a second or two of delay even when no artificial delay has been set up. This combined with the teamspeak / skype lag puts the stream and the casters off quite a bit making it very weird.
I don't think having a separate cameraman is feasible unless all the people are physically in the same location.
I enjoyed watching that cup, and it will make for a great showcase of a proper game of NS2 in action (not some highly scripted 'trailer'), its odd how its the flaws in the coverage that make the whole thing more appealing... you know its not sanitised.
My only complaints ...
The recording of the final cut off rather abruptly, was there only 2 matches ? Hugh was saying something then it ended mid sentence, and the next recording up is some post tournament pub mess around.
Showing off the stats was good but showing off the tournament board so often just to highlight something so basic and obvious came off as a bit condescending and patronising, there wasnt that many teams involved.
Hm, thats sounds like an aweful lot of delay you've got though. Whatever, I'm not the most knowledgeable streamer but I have a hard time thinking there isn't a way that this could be solved.
Even if there isn't a solution for the minor tournaments now before release. Their "big big thing" should probably look into it to maximise production value.
<!--quoteo(post=1978802:date=Sep 16 2012, 07:28 PM:name=bily)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bily @ Sep 16 2012, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? I thought that's what nexzil was doing this entire tournament. SPB should be flattered I guess, imitation being the sincerest form of flattery and all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't realize having fun with Pokemon names and mixing with inversion was trolling :o
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1978911:date=Sep 17 2012, 10:50 AM:name=wiry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wiry @ Sep 17 2012, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978911"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hm, thats sounds like an aweful lot of delay you've got though. Whatever, I'm not the most knowledgeable streamer but I have a hard time thinking there isn't a way that this could be solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's nothing you can really do for the delay because when streaming the image needs to be captured, encoded, packed, sent to twitch, processed at twitch to faciliate the multiple bitrates, sent to all the twitch servers around the world, downloaded by browser and processed by the browser and the plugin to display the video.
On top of this the browser also caches the video in case of a lag so you don't miss parts of the video. Thus the both casters could actually see the video in very different time, even tens of seconds. I'm not quite sure what's the maximum client cache time of Twitch but i expect it to be around ten seconds or so.
i thought the pokemon names were funny, having watched the streams, it appears that most of the casters and audience agreed! sorry, i dont know who super pax bro are, tho i have heard the name a bit since we pokemoned up :)
Seems odd that we copy pokemon names and get accusedof stealing the names from someone else copying pokemon names, and not from nintendo lol
Best thing was learning that hugh is also a closet pokemon master ;)
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1978729:date=Sep 17 2012, 01:14 AM:name=Laosh'Ra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laosh'Ra @ Sep 17 2012, 01:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978729"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but one thing i'd like to see improved for insight is the switch from overhead to freecam, it always seems to put the spectator in unfortunate freecam positions which often results in missing a few seconds. maybe make the freecam start out similar to the skycam, facing downward? that could prevent the spectator from being disoriented at first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually the freecam points towards the nearest player after switching, but the problem is that this process is interpolated and the position of the nearest player is determined at the start of the transition instead of being constantly updated during it, which usually results in the camera pointing towards a seemingly "random" direction. Even if this would be fixed, I would still make the caster extremely disoriented, so I'm probably going to bother Huze to disable it. :>
Comments
might be a bit difficult concerning the massive amount of fast-paced footage, but it'd be nice to have indeed :)
not sure if this is a viable idea, but i also love to see some sort of shout-out/award/whatever for either a team or an individual player for doing something very awesome during the cup (nothing fixed, something spontanious). like someone "getting the mustache" for still winning after a reslock (not necessarily a good example but you get the idea).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love the commentators too. Great job guys!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, was very entertaining!
In NS2 there are often hapening more then two pushes at the same time ... not missing the actual important action is crucial. The lack of experience makes the casters often fokus on the wrong aspect of the game. There are often only disctractions going on at a certain time, like shooting the mainhive, while the other remaining marine team walks into the second hive. Pointing out, that this will force the spawnwave to spawn in the mainhive but not at the second hive thats going to be attacked pretty soon is very important to understand the strategic teamplay.
I just want to point out some problems. It is very hard to focus and comment to the stuff thats going on... missing important action is kinda inevitable.
Maybe just pointing out the issue, will help commentating future matches.
Well done to the commentators + players.
family problems :S they were annoying me those whole 3 matches lol so I just left. Sorry for leaving in the middle of the match btw.
For the finals I just made a quick cut-work from our stream (me and Zeikko casting)
Game 1: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gss3Kdq-R14" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gss3Kdq-R14</a>
Game 2: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z988CE3M3jY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z988CE3M3jY</a>
Game 3: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or0aqSIdJog" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or0aqSIdJog</a>
Game 4: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZbQoQbVcpQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZbQoQbVcpQ</a>
(whole stream video here: <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/332424410" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/332424410</a> if interested)
In NS2 there are often hapening more then two pushes at the same time ... not missing the actual important action is crucial. The lack of experience makes the casters often fokus on the wrong aspect of the game. There are often only disctractions going on at a certain time, like shooting the mainhive, while the other remaining marine team walks into the second hive. Pointing out, that this will force the spawnwave to spawn in the mainhive but not at the second hive thats going to be attacked pretty soon is very important to understand the strategic teamplay.
I just want to point out some problems. It is very hard to focus and comment to the stuff thats going on... missing important action is kinda inevitable.
Maybe just pointing out the issue, will help commentating future matches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you tried watching the alternative stream? Maybe that offers the kind of casting you are looking for?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But they do miss a lot of important action throughout a match.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think they are doing a good job overall, especially when there are big showdowns.
but one thing i'd like to see improved for insight is the switch from overhead to freecam, it always seems to put the spectator in unfortunate freecam positions which often results in missing a few seconds. maybe make the freecam start out similar to the skycam, facing downward? that could prevent the spectator from being disoriented at first.
i think they are doing a good job overall, especially when there are big showdowns.
but one thing i'd like to see improved for insight is the switch from overhead to freecam, it always seems to put the spectator in unfortunate freecam positions which often results in missing a few seconds. maybe make the freecam start out similar to the skycam, facing downward? that could prevent the spectator from being disoriented at first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No its just bad camera work most of the time although i'm sure hugh will work it out eventually. He's focusing on trying to emulate that fixed spec camera position per room that just doesn't work when your trying to show the actual combat. Fixed camera views designed to show off the beauty of a room and variable combat positions/situations will never go well together - remember we are trying to spec the players, not the room.
My opportunity is, that i only have to watch, i dont have to commentate it. I think i would miss far more action if i had to commentate it aswell.
Well done to the commentators + players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, there is a very basic record option right now, some players claim they have fps loss with that on. I know its a post-1.0 priority to put in some demo recording features. How awesome would it be to be able to download any of the 12 players PoV's and watch it while listening to a cast with overhead view?
Really? I thought that's what nexzil was doing this entire tournament. SPB should be flattered I guess, imitation being the sincerest form of flattery and all.
And how awesome would it even be being able to do some post-game analysis à la Day9? :)
For this to work it requires that the commentators and the "spotter"/cameraman are in the same room because otherwise the delay between the casters will make this impossible to work out.
Personally i'm not bothered if casters miss some solo rt/hive attacks, pg builds, etc. because the spectators can see this through the insight. What annoys me the most is if the camera is not where the main combat is happening since you don't get much out of the combat through the minimap.
There are ways to solve it, but it does indeed take some effort.
Also, spectators? In a cup match? No thanks.
It's such good news that hugh and wasabi didn't mind zups (teamwasabi) to be able to be in ready room and making sure he didn't join spectators at any time. since the score board was up 1% of the total game. But yeah wasabi, "who cares?".
If you're trying to work out kinks for a future tournament, specs is one them.
There are ways to solve it, but it does indeed take some effort.
Also, spectators? In a cup match? No thanks.
It's such good news that hugh and wasabi didn't mind zups (teamwasabi) to be able to be in ready room and making sure he didn't join spectators at any time. since the score board was up 1% of the total game. But yeah wasabi, "who cares?".
If you're trying to work out kinks for a future tournament, specs is one them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All the streams i have been casting in have always had atleast a second or two of delay even when no artificial delay has been set up. This combined with the teamspeak / skype lag puts the stream and the casters off quite a bit making it very weird.
I don't think having a separate cameraman is feasible unless all the people are physically in the same location.
My only complaints ...
The recording of the final cut off rather abruptly, was there only 2 matches ? Hugh was saying something then it ended mid sentence, and the next recording up is some post tournament pub mess around.
Showing off the stats was good but showing off the tournament board so often just to highlight something so basic and obvious came off as a bit condescending and patronising, there wasnt that many teams involved.
Overall highly entertaining, good job.
Even if there isn't a solution for the minor tournaments now before release. Their "big big thing" should probably look into it to maximise production value.
edit spelling
I didn't realize having fun with Pokemon names and mixing with inversion was trolling :o
There's nothing you can really do for the delay because when streaming the image needs to be captured, encoded, packed, sent to twitch, processed at twitch to faciliate the multiple bitrates, sent to all the twitch servers around the world, downloaded by browser and processed by the browser and the plugin to display the video.
On top of this the browser also caches the video in case of a lag so you don't miss parts of the video. Thus the both casters could actually see the video in very different time, even tens of seconds. I'm not quite sure what's the maximum client cache time of Twitch but i expect it to be around ten seconds or so.
Seems odd that we copy pokemon names and get accusedof stealing the names from someone else copying pokemon names, and not from nintendo lol
Best thing was learning that hugh is also a closet pokemon master ;)
Actually the freecam points towards the nearest player after switching, but the problem is that this process is interpolated and the position of the nearest player is determined at the start of the transition instead of being constantly updated during it, which usually results in the camera pointing towards a seemingly "random" direction.
Even if this would be fixed, I would still make the caster extremely disoriented, so I'm probably going to bother Huze to disable it. :>