Natural Selection 2 News Update - NS2 Build 219 released

245

Comments

  • darkfictiondarkfiction Join Date: 2010-12-14 Member: 75677Members
    edited September 2012
    Some interesting changes... It will be fun to see how the teams in this weekends tournament (wasabione.com) change their strategies given only a few days notice.
  • DarkScytheDarkScythe Join Date: 2012-08-30 Member: 156876Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1976037:date=Sep 11 2012, 10:48 PM:name=Cyberboss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cyberboss @ Sep 11 2012, 10:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to say removing power packs was a big hit. How about an alternative such as having power packs hold a charge and each use of something (phase, spawn, resupply, beacon, research, purchase) drains it. They could start with 0 power and charge up to full.

    Power pack observatories save games<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I really like this idea.
    Power packs as they were before encouraged the marines to ignore the power node for a while, as long as it kept the phase gates or something up.

    A "Battery" like this idea sounds more like something that would help give the marines some sort of emergency measures, while still encouraging getting the power nodes back up ASAP.
    Essentially, this battery would hold a limited number of 'charges' and each use of a phase gate, or armory heal, or scan, etc, would deplete the energy supply (alternatively, give it a fixed, say, 15-second run time and power multiple structures within a limited range?) and once it runs out, its attached structure powers down. Once the power is back up (or up to begin with) it would recharge itself to refill its capacity via the power node/grid.

    I don't know about issues with stacking/attaching like 4 batteries to a phase gate though.
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    The fade is finally ambidextrous !
  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    It takes 2 sentries (20 tres total with power pack) ~50 seconds to kill a newly dropped hive. It takes one person ~12s to build all of this by himself. That seems like alright dps, but I'm not really sure how good it truly is. All it takes is one alien to walk in front of the sentries and they just fail to output any dps because they try (and fail) to shoot the alien.

    I think the sentries are better than I initially though, but still unsure why I'd ever want to spend tres to build them when you probably don't gain much (if any) dps on the hive by building them. Also, you have to put them very close to the hive because they have a short range and you don't want them targeting players/eggs/hydras/etc.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    edited September 2012
    How long would it take the player to kill the hive himself instead of spending time building the battery and two sentries?

    If sentries are supposed to be building killers now, that seems to leave even fewer cases where you'd want to use ARCs. And why would they prioritize aliens over alien structures?

    Tested in a listen server, a skulk can run straight at a sentry down a long hallway, and bite it to death standing right infront of it. The sentry dies, skulk lives. That's just sad.
  • fmponefmpone Join Date: 2011-07-05 Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
    I would like to see the 219 changes rolled back (normal voice com, restoration of power packs) and the removal of sentries from the game, if neccessary.
  • KopikatKopikat Join Date: 2012-09-06 Member: 158170Members
    edited September 2012
    Well...I'd still rather see the Sentry be added to the Advanced Armory for infantry to purchase and just do away with the battery mechanic entirely. 20 pres, researchable from the Robots Factory for...oh...10-15 tres? Possibly let the Marine un-deploy the sentry he put down to move it elsewhere.

    Even if it stays anti-structure, then at least the Marine can use discretion on where and how to use it, helping to support himself and/or the squad. It's just a really awkward thing for the Comm to be in control of, because he has better things to be doing than wasting tons of tres on the Sentries.

    Edit: For the decision to have the two sides as functionally different as possible...why make Sentries anti-structure when Aliens already have an AI anti-structure unit? (Whips do structural damage, so...)
  • MaukkaMaukka Join Date: 2011-06-12 Member: 103991Members, Reinforced - Diamond
    <!--quoteo(post=1976071:date=Sep 12 2012, 06:54 AM:name=GISP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GISP @ Sep 12 2012, 06:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Playtesters tryed out a few differnt tactics and did alot of testing whit the sentries. They have there uses *wink* *wink*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well pardon my skepticism but just saying "they have their uses" doesn't mean that they aren't made redundant by every other item I listed earlier. If you have some specific scenarios in mind I'd love to hear about them. I just don't understand why marines need yet another siege weapon when they seem to have enough of them already.

    To me it seems more logical to just revert the sentries to what they were earlier when they were stronger but just give them hardcaps per room to prevent spam. That way they'd at least act as a force multiplier in defensive situtations without being useless.
  • rebirthrebirth Join Date: 2007-09-23 Member: 62416Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1976072:date=Sep 12 2012, 03:56 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 12 2012, 03:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about this: Sentries and Sentry batteries are allowed to be placed on infestation? Then you could have one Marine set up a number of Sentries surrounding the Hive, then have him build the battery to power them to quickly burst down the Hive before any Aliens have a chance to respond.

    Of course, there are a number of issues with this idea (First and foremost being that it's not entirely intuitive if only one structure can be placed on infestation while the rest can't), but it would still allow Marines that sneak behind enemy lines to do something worth worrying about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    But that would be an quite weak force amplifier for the effort, if you manage to sneak enough manpower into a hive to setup a whole battery of sentries then you might as well have had all those marines just shotgun rape the hive.

    I guess i'm mostly hung up on the concept of ninja pg's being gone, happened quite often that these turned to be out an fun and great game changer for games that otherwise would have been a boring turtle fest with an drawn out end.
  • KopikatKopikat Join Date: 2012-09-06 Member: 158170Members
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1976092:date=Sep 11 2012, 09:23 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Sep 11 2012, 09:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But that would be an quite weak force amplifier for the effort, if you manage to sneak enough manpower into a hive to setup a whole battery of sentries then you might as well have had all those marines just shotgun rape the hive.

    I guess i'm mostly hung up on the concept of ninja pg's being gone, happened quite often that these turned to be out an fun and great game changer for games that otherwise would have been a boring turtle fest with an drawn out end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well, I was thinking that one guy could do it. Sentries go up really fast, but I don't know how long the battery takes.

    It wasn't really a serious suggestion though.

    <!--quoteo(post=1976087:date=Sep 11 2012, 09:17 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Sep 11 2012, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How long would it take the player to kill the hive himself instead of spending time building the battery and two sentries?

    If sentries are supposed to be building killers now, that seems to leave even fewer cases where you'd want to use ARCs. And why would they prioritize aliens over alien structures?

    Tested in a listen server, a skulk can run straight at a sentry down a long hallway, and bite it to death standing right infront of it. The sentry dies, skulk lives. That's just sad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    How many Sentries does it take in that situation to bring down a Skulk before they take any damage?
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1976071:date=Sep 11 2012, 08:54 PM:name=GISP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GISP @ Sep 11 2012, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Playtesters tryed out a few differnt tactics and did alot of testing whit the sentries. They have there uses *wink* *wink*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    To be fair.. like the twitter feed said.. we didn't have a lot of time to test them, (yesterday and today?) and what we did test had huge ramifications with their implementation.. (aliens locked down early game since windmill formation sentries protect their own battery so you need BB)

    I personally don't like this direction.. if they wanted more use out of sentries they could have made them cheaper and limited per room to prevent spamming.
    Ever since the day that sentries got nerfed (out of left field) with their HP its been a wild ride ..

    The thing i dont get is: if power packs didnt make sense and they wanted them gone...wth is this battery thing? <i>its the same issue! </i>Taking out the power nodes no longer effect sentry farms.... that used to be one of the biggest purposes behind them, remember? Oh and.. theyre meant to be used offensively.. but somehow i just see this being used defensively no matter what. because a marine is mobile and targets better.

    But i'm game to give it a shot for a patch and see how it goes. :shrug:
  • kababkabab Join Date: 2003-12-15 Member: 24384Members, Constellation
    edited September 2012
    The entire reason sentries got nerfed in the first place because there was no bile bomb or onos so aliens couldn't break bases....

    Then we get bile bomb and its not so much of an issue but sentries have already been nerfed into nothing... Then sentries get buff but bile gets moved to lerks so once again they become OP so they get nerfed then aliens get onos and around we go again..

    Sentries have been adjusted so much because of the changes to the aliens drastically changed how effective they are..

    This latest change is 50% good and 50% silly... Marines have 3 powerful anti structure weapons (gl,arc and flamer) they do not need another one... What marines are lacking is a static area/base defence to give them enough breathing room to leave bases and scout the map without having to worry about constant alien harassment..

    Sentries have to go back to being anti player structures... The change to them working off power packs and being built on infestation is good the rest of the changes are rubbish..

    Flayra needs to understand if a marine side spams turrets early they completely sacrifice upgrades which means the marines will have no map control so aliens will get stacks of resources and high life forms which demolish sentries... Sentry spam is not an issue with gorge bile bomb and onos..

    Phase gates need to be a unique self powered structure that can be built on infestation to help bring back more strats into the game...
  • KopikatKopikat Join Date: 2012-09-06 Member: 158170Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1976097:date=Sep 11 2012, 09:35 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Sep 11 2012, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Phase gates need to be a unique self powered structure that can be built on infestation to help bring back more strats into the game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Why not just have it so that if one side is powered, both sides are powered? Kind of like how you can repair both sides of the gate from one end. At least, I think you can.
  • kababkabab Join Date: 2003-12-15 Member: 24384Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1976099:date=Sep 12 2012, 02:40 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 12 2012, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976099"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not just have it so that if one side is powered, both sides are powered? Kind of like how you can repair both sides of the gate from one end. At least, I think you can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Perfect :D
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    It seems like the new sentry role would already be covered by exosuits, grenade launchers, ARCs, large groups of marines, and phase gates.

    I don't really get why marines need so many different ways to do the same thing? Giving them lots of siege options isn't really going to make it easier to siege, because lots of options doesn't mean any one of them is going to be particularly effective.

    Do sentries work any better than arcs? Or exos? If not, why are they there?
  • Omega_K2Omega_K2 Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Sentries are useless now. That powerpack/sentry thing should be reverted


    Marines need something for base defense, not another structure killer (we already have plenty. Also ARCs if you are thinking "siege cannons")
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Sentries being effective against players is almost never fun for anyone, so I can understand the change. It's a bit weird how many anti-structure options marines have, but whatever.

    Might I suggest renaming them to "Assault Turret" or something? Sentry implies that they're for defense.
  • WorthyRivalWorthyRival Black Armor Division Join Date: 2006-11-07 Member: 58470Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    The biggest issue with power packs is their <u>infinte</u> source of power. <u>It's this mechanic that underminds power nodes.</u>
    <u>
    Power packs need to be disposible</u>. They should have a <u>timed life span of 1-2 minutes</u> before burning out.
    Only enough time to power a phase gate to stage a ninja assault on a hive or to capture a power node.
    Only enough time to spawn in a few marines via an infantry portal in an emergency.

    The power pack as a battery idea has been flying around the ideas and suggestion fourms for a long time. I've no idea why they ignore it.
  • KopikatKopikat Join Date: 2012-09-06 Member: 158170Members
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1976117:date=Sep 11 2012, 10:59 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Sep 11 2012, 10:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries being effective against players is almost never fun for anyone, so I can understand the change. It's a bit weird how many anti-structure options marines have, but whatever.

    Might I suggest renaming them to "Assault Turret" or something? Sentry implies that they're for defense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Aliens get Hydra, Whips, and Drifters though. Know how much fun it is to shoot a grenade into a dark room to 'scout', only to get smacked in the face with the very same grenade? Not very much.

    If Marines have to contend with three different AI units/defenses, the Aliens can put up with one.

    I mean...one Hydra is probably more effective than a Sentry is. 15 medium-type damage with decent health that can be placed anywhere for a small pres cost vs very low light-type damage while being made of paper, can only target 90~ degrees, needs to be powered via battery, costs a significant amount of tres, and is restricted to being placed on the ground.

    I didn't mention needing to be built since they both need to be built.
  • LocklearLocklear [nexzil]kerrigan Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow
    This sentry change is dumb imo. It feels like an early game attempt at what ARCs do? What role does this fill?

    Make sentries decent again, cap them at 4-5 per Command Station and leave them as defense DPS for late game protection against a ninja skulk or something. Something to sink Tres into late game or whatever but not be spammed.
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    Does anyone seriously want turrets in this game to be useful. I want to play against people, not the computer.

    I'm so glad turrets were useless in NS1.
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1976130:date=Sep 11 2012, 11:11 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Sep 11 2012, 11:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does anyone seriously want turrets in this game to be useful. I want to play against people, not the computer.

    I'm so glad turrets were useless in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    They weren't useless. Just sub-optimal in higher level play. But still super useful in medium-level play to help deter Aliens from certain regions. If you had the spare Res. Or were defending a siege point.

    Gotta figure out that point where it's useful to help hold the line in specific situations, but not so much people just turret farm the whole map.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    why can't it just be like 3 per robo fac. and nix the power pack idea.
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES&#33; FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS&#33; Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    <!--quoteo(post=1976130:date=Sep 12 2012, 04:11 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Sep 12 2012, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does anyone seriously want turrets in this game to be useful. I want to play against people, not the computer.

    I'm so glad turrets were useless in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Then why do we still have hydras, whips and drifters?
    How come aliens have alot of defense capibilities but marines none, r next to none?
    THAT AND they freaking are 10 times the usefulness of sentries


    Sir please remember
    this isn't an fps
    this is a rts with fps capabilities, not the otherway around.
    So your logic is flawed.
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remove portable power nodes from the game. These are flawed in concept and work against the power nodes in general. Sorry, ninja tactics! Maybe we can figure out another way for you to ninja your 'gates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Next step is to remove the power nodes, if you can't figure it out.
  • dethovudethovu Join Date: 2009-06-23 Member: 67906Members
    Good patch; interesting changes.

    Although, still patiently waiting to see:

    <b>Sound</b>
    <i>Enabled Surround Sound options in menu</i>

    in the changelog.

    "Any patch now" I keep telling myself...!
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
    I liked most changes - not happy about the removal of power packs though. Made the game far more interesting and I've never thought of them as overpowered.


    Also not sure about these sentry changes. Leaves marines with no defensive turrets. Will have to see how it plays out.
  • KeldornKeldorn Join Date: 2012-05-05 Member: 151587Members
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1976151:date=Sep 12 2012, 08:43 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Sep 12 2012, 08:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I liked most changes - not happy about the removal of power packs though. Made the game far more interesting and I've never thought of them as overpowered.


    Also not sure about these sentry changes. Leaves marines with no defensive turrets. Will have to see how it plays out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Ditto here, we'll see how it plays.
  • MorshuMorshu Join Date: 2012-08-13 Member: 155539Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2012
    Good patch overall in my opinion except the changes for the sentry turrets.

    I'll agree when people say it should be used for static defense against alien players and not as early-game siege or whatever since if so then the marines won't have any non-marine infantry defenses against aliens other than the mines I guess. (or mass MACs to EMP/weld them to death weee...)

    As of the whole 'batteries for the sentry turrets' idea I don't see why this is being implemented with the removal of the deployable power packs, I guess there would be a point if the sentry turret itself were as tough as they once were before they were nerfed into oblivion (health/armor-wise) and then you would have a battery with very little health to take out as a gorge/skulk early game if you manage to get pass the sentry turrets line of sight.

    Personally I would love to see the sentry turrets being used early game to 'lockdown' a hallway, for instance just like a gorge can put up a 'gorge nest' with clogs and hydras, only the sentry turrets will do this with significant firepower (after all it's a little minigun on the damn thing) HOWEVER the 90 degree field of view should remain the same so the aliens can OUTFLANK these turrets as they always do.

    Surely the sentry turrets probably would be 'too good' from the sounds of this but with some rebalancing/tweaking like slower targeting/damage/increased Tres cost I think it could work okay for such purposes.

    Then somewhere around mid-game when aliens get bilebomb they can surely take the fight head-on with sentry turret farms/spam or even fades blinking past the sentry turrets slashing them to small heaps of scrap!

    EDIT: I think it would be fair to say 2-3 sentry turrets per CC to avoid the whole "omagad skulks coming every once in a while into my base! gonna spam turrets all over the base AND the map if I can help it!" just like a gorge has the limit to make do with 3 hydras, of course it might not be the same but if the sentry turret will ever become the static defense against alien players it needs a build limit just like the gorge has to avoid spam/other.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1976144:date=Sep 12 2012, 04:29 PM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Sep 12 2012, 04:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then why do we still have hydras, whips and drifters?
    How come aliens have alot of defense capibilities but marines none, r next to none?
    THAT AND they freaking are 10 times the usefulness of sentries


    Sir please remember
    this isn't an fps
    this is a rts with fps capabilities, not the otherway around.
    So your logic is flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    um. because marines have now 4 different types of gorges to deal with building spam
    1) gorges with miniguns that can shoot everything.
    2) gorges that shoot through walls
    3) gorges that throw explosives and only cost 1 tres to resupply fully (dumb ammopack change)
    4) gorges that are arguably still rubbish but are being intentionally designed to kill buildings as of this build.
    Heck, even a vanilla marine can deal with structure spam. Can a vanilla skulk deal with sentry spam? no i didn't think so.

    =====================================================
    Regarding the balance changes, only real good one is
    -Fade eggs now cost 40 (up from 30). Onos eggs now cost 50 (up from 40).

    The others are a bit rubbish and don't address the actual problems they were trying to address. The ammopack one is just stupid (i really don't know how else to say that nicer).

    I for one will miss powerpacks. They were a sorely needed quick fix and workaround to all the clunkiness of the powernode system. Situational yes, but the option was there and the tres cost high enough to call it balanced. Power-sniping and obs-sniping with no counter seems to be the new legit strat.

    *edit*
    Still waiting for drifter hp nerf.
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