<!--quoteo(post=1971144:date=Sep 4 2012, 04:49 PM:name=Rowen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rowen @ Sep 4 2012, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does it matter much? If you're a skulk and a marine arrives when you're munching on an extractor, you're in trouble. If you're a fade, you kill the marine/s and finish the extractor, even if it takes 35% more time; even beter, as those marines were not pressuring <i>your</i> extractors. If you're killing a phase gate and marines phase to save it, you just kill the marines, the skulk is toast. Beacon? Observatories are so fragile that 35% more time isn't that much of a difference.
If the counter to that is "the marines should be coordinated", then we're also talking about a rambo fade. If it coordinates with a couple skulks or a bilebombing gorge then the commander's best option is to recicle unatended bases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^pretty much this Let the skulks do the structure killing while you harass the marine players. Fades don't have to touch a single structure for their team to win.
<!--quoteo(post=1971107:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:05 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 4 2012, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lets put this another way. How much better should the fade be at killing marines compared to the skulk?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No better, no worse. It's like rifle vs shotgun. Different advantages and disadvantages. The way I see fades is they should be faster at moving around the map, better at killing jetpackers etc.
I think this argument is a waste of time though. Anyone with any clue can clearly see how OP the fade is, but you still get naysayers. Even back in build 180 when the fade was ridiculous and literally won the game as soon as the second hive dropped, there was still a huge gang of people saying stupid stuff like "Fade is SUPPOSED to kill marines" "I kill fades all the time, I soloed 3 fades with my eyes closed" blah blah...
It's not even about 50/50 win stats or anything, it's just about the combat situations within the game. It's not fun to be constantly dying to overpowered ######, even if you do win the game at the end. When you die to a fade you don't think "wow that guy was really good", you just get frustrated and feel like it was because he was a fade and not because of his ability.
<!--quoteo(post=1971160:date=Sep 4 2012, 05:13 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 4 2012, 05:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971160"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No better, no worse. It's like rifle vs shotgun. Different advantages and disadvantages. The way I see fades is they should be faster at moving around the map, better at killing jetpackers etc.
I think this argument is a waste of time though. Anyone with any clue can clearly see how OP the fade is, but you still get naysayers. Even back in build 180 when the fade was ridiculous and literally won the game as soon as the second hive dropped, there was still a huge gang of people saying stupid stuff like "Fade is SUPPOSED to kill marines" "I kill fades all the time, I soloed 3 fades with my eyes closed" blah blah...
It's not even about 50/50 win stats or anything, it's just about the combat situations within the game. It's not fun to be constantly dying to overpowered ######, even if you do win the game at the end. When you die to a fade you don't think "wow that guy was really good", you just get frustrated and feel like it was because he was a fade and not because of his ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think there is an actual in game answer to fades. GL's are countered by whips and umbra quite effectively Fades are countered by nothing effectively, only a few things counter them with mediocrity. The amount of rez that gets wasted just trying too, causes all sorts of issues on marine side. Wasted shotguns, gls, flamethrowers, jetpacks, exo's. Not to mention all the mines and sentries that are essentially useless the moment fades show up.
Has anyone ever killed a blinking fade? I haven't, seems really dodgy the way you hit them.
Also I think blink is still a bit too cheap, adrenaline fades can basically blink around forever, especially if they aren't trying to land a kill, just waste marines time.
Other than that though, I think fades are fine. Shotguns are deadly against them, and even a solo marine with rifle level 3 can kill one, I did, today - lucky as hell of course, since every bullet hit. But anyways.
Yes, comm dropping fades is a bit of a problem. Once kharaa have 2 hives and 4-5 rt's you can just start pumping out fades indefinitely lol.
<!--quoteo(post=1971160:date=Sep 4 2012, 11:13 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 4 2012, 11:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971160"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not fun to be constantly dying<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that hit's on what I was try to say about there being something fundementally wrong the game mechanics of a fade. I'm interested in game theory and game design, and I like to collect snippets of design notes from forums and websites, I've even made a few board games and card games of my own.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anti-fun is the negative experience your opponents feel when you do something that prevents them from 'playing their game' or doing activities they consider fun. While everything useful you can do as a player is likely to cause SOME anti-fun in your opponents, it only becomes a design issue when the 'anti-fun' created on your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic. <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><a href="http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=293417" target="_blank">source</a><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now playing as a Fade, blinking up to a marine, swiping them down and then blinking away is very fun, but having this happen to you repeatedly as a marine is so frustrating it far outweighs the fun for the Fade. I wish there was more viable tactics to take down Fades other than what has been discussed in the thread.
I think it's obvious OP is living in his own fantasy world and is completely impervious to reason. There's not really much to discuss here; the entire thread is just people pointing out how the fade isn't ruining NS2, and OP going "nope" in response.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think there is an actual in game answer to fades. GL's are countered by whips and umbra quite effectively Fades are countered by nothing effectively, only a few things counter them with mediocrity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why when, earlier today, a fade blinked in on me alone in a room and ate two shotgun shells to the face with no misses, he ran away without landing a single swipe against me?
Lord.
There was a guy in that game, or maybe a later one, that complained that marines <i>being able to jump</i> was OP. Of course he ran at you in a straight line on the floor and missed the majority of his bites.
Pressure resources, kill RTs, keep the alien team struggling for res. Force them to expend pres on gorges and lerks.
These kinds of complaints are basically always the result of games where the marines had two RTs vs. the aliens' five and then they complain about "balance".
Good aim - and let me stress that my aim sucks - is the single most powerful effect in this game, for both marines and aliens. Good movement skills are the second most powerful, and good placement is the third.
Edit: and of course, if you think fading is soooooooooo OP, then do it. I want to see some screenshots - preferably video - of you getting 10:1 K:D ratios as fade. I want to see screenshots where you've got 3-4 marine kills racked up in the upper right corner.
<!--quoteo(post=1971165:date=Sep 4 2012, 05:29 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 4 2012, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's obvious OP is living in his own fantasy world and is completely impervious to reason. There's not really much to discuss here; the entire thread is just people pointing out how the fade isn't ruining NS2, and OP going "nope" in response.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have observed at least 5 different people in this thread in agreement besides me the op. you might want to recheck that.
<!--quoteo(post=1971166:date=Sep 4 2012, 05:32 PM:name=paella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paella @ Sep 4 2012, 05:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971166"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is why when, earlier today, a fade blinked in on me alone in a room and ate two shotgun shells to the face with no misses, <b>he ran away without landing a single swipe against me? </b> Lord.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
note the bolded part, you shot him twice in the face yet he still got away regened and came back, you didn't kill him. You expended ammo and essentially made yourself weaker every time he attacks.
<!--quoteo(post=1971167:date=Sep 4 2012, 06:33 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971167"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have observed at least 5 different people in this thread in agreement besides me the op. you might want to recheck that.
note the bolded part, you shot him twice in the face yet he still got away regened and came back, you didn't kill him. You expended ammo and essentially made yourself weaker every time he attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, if you expect 2 hits to kill a high lifeform, I've got some seriously bad news for you
<!--quoteo(post=1971170:date=Sep 4 2012, 05:36 PM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Sep 4 2012, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dude, if you expect 2 hits to kill a high lifeform, I've got some seriously bad news for you<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's not saying it should. He's saying the marine is using up all his ammo, and the fade can keep doing what he's doing alllll day (delaying the marine every step of the way)
<!--quoteo(post=1971170:date=Sep 4 2012, 05:36 PM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Sep 4 2012, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dude, if you expect 2 hits to kill a high lifeform, I've got some seriously bad news for you<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
who said anything about me expecting them to die in 2 hits, I am talking about them not dieing ever. A properly played fade is invincible, sure they are forced to retreat now and again or maybe they do it as a matter of course. But the fact of the matter is they don't die. As long as they don't die its just a matter of time til your out of ammo, and you die.
And to all the people who argue 4-5 marines should be able to handle 1 fade easily. So what happens when there 8 fades and 8 marines, the essential unbalancing effect they have on the game is too great to ignore.
You want a 50 res lifeform to be eliminated by two shells from a 10 res weapon? Seriously, that's your idea of balance?
o.O
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->8 fades and 8 marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) this isn't even possible, lifeforms are capped based on teamsize b) if it were possible, an alien team that has a 400 resource advantage over a marine team at a given timing absolutely should lose, yes
<!--quoteo(post=1971175:date=Sep 4 2012, 05:40 PM:name=paella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paella @ Sep 4 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971175"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You want a 50 res lifeform to be eliminated by two shells from a 10 res weapon? Seriously, that's your idea of balance?
o.O
a) this isn't even possible, lifeforms are capped based on teamsize b) if it were possible, an alien team that has a 400 resource advantage over a marine team at a given timing absolutely should lose, yes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it doesnt start out at 8 fades it starts with one fade that never dies. <-- the root cause.
I already, and someone else already answered your first question.
Comparably an onos costs 75 res and is far easier to kill then a fade. Why should a fade that is a 50 res lifeform be harder to kill then a 75 res lifeform>?
Exo's are 50 and 75 res, does this mean that the Exo is the answer to fades? because a fade can literally never die to an exo if he doesn't want to. forget about the exo "chasing down" a fade to finish them exo are the slowest units with no sprint ability.
blink in attack blink out regen blink in attack blink out regen blink in attack blink out regen blink in attack blink out regen
<!--quoteo(post=1971164:date=Sep 4 2012, 11:29 PM:name=perky)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (perky @ Sep 4 2012, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now playing as a Fade, blinking up to a marine, swiping them down and then blinking away is very fun, but having this happen to you repeatedly as a marine is so frustrating it far outweighs the fun for the Fade. I wish there was more viable tactics to take down Fades other than what has been discussed in the thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I prefer to look at like, "If you punish a player for something they couldn't avoid = frustration" I think that comes from valve. Of course it is frustrating to play against players who are much better than you, but in most games even if you get out played then you know that you could have played better, you know if you had aimed better then you would have killed them instead. The fade can literary just w+m1 towards a marine with a rifle and just slash away even if he hits with every single bullet. As said in this thread, the fades rate of fire is crazy, there are many times where you don't miss a single shot and still die. You literally couldn't have done anything more because of the rate of fire of the gun and yet you still "lose".
<!--quoteo(post=1971174:date=Sep 4 2012, 05:39 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 05:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->who said anything about me expecting them to die in 2 hits, I am talking about them not dieing ever. A properly played fade is invincible, sure they are forced to retreat now and again or maybe they do it as a matter of course. But the fact of the matter is they don't die. As long as they don't die its just a matter of time til your out of ammo, and you die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A good Fade can run away from just about anything, sure, but that doesn't mean they're doing anything useful. The safer they play the less opportunity they have to do any damage. Time is a valuable resource in this game - if you chase the Fade away maybe that gives you the opportunity to kill an RT, or a hive. Anybody can be the last alien standing as a Fade while their team loses the game. The Fade has no choice but to risk his life in order to have a chance at stopping a powerful marine push.
8 exos vs 8 [insert alien lifeform here], exos will win.
The exos aren't overpowered, why would the fades be?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I single handedly killed 4 exos attacking our hive as a skulk, I re-spawned 4 times took an exo out with each life
8 exos means no welders and no welders means dead exo's
Exosuits don't have the means to teleport halfway across the map to an armory, like a fade does to a crag or hive/gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=1971181:date=Sep 4 2012, 05:49 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Sep 4 2012, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A good Fade can run away from just about anything, sure, but that doesn't mean they're doing anything useful. The safer they play the less opportunity they have to do any damage. Time is a valuable resource in this game - if you chase the Fade away maybe that gives you the opportunity to kill an RT, or a hive. Anybody can be the last alien standing as a Fade while their team loses the game. The Fade has no choice but to risk his life in order to have a chance at stopping a powerful marine push.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your statement would seem in direct opposition to the 70-0 fades I have seen play. they obviouly killed more marines/shutdown more outward push's yet they didn't die once. It would seem that a fade does not need to risk his life to gain great strides in defeating the marines, and preventing forward momentum.
<!--quoteo(post=1971178:date=Sep 5 2012, 12:45 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 5 2012, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I prefer to look at like, "If you punish a player for something they couldn't avoid = frustration"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the key problem with games like NS. At the ten minute mark, you pay for what happened at the 5 minute mark. But nobody remembers what happened at the 5 minute mark, so everyone thinks that it is imbalanced. You could have avoided what happened to you, but you couldn't have avoided it in <b>that </b>encounter. You had to avoid it 5 minutes ago.
<!--quoteo(post=1971184:date=Sep 5 2012, 12:51 AM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 5 2012, 12:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I single handedly killed 4 exos attacking our hive as a skulk, I re-spawned 4 times took an exo out with each life
8 exos means no welders and no welders means dead exo's<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you know how long it takes 8 exos to kill a hive? A little under 10 seconds. Do you know how long it takes an alien player to respawn 3 times? 21 seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=1971172:date=Sep 4 2012, 06:38 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Sep 4 2012, 06:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He's not saying it should. He's saying the marine is using up all his ammo, and the fade can keep doing what he's doing alllll day (delaying the marine every step of the way)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why people have said over and over that this is a game about teamwork and you shouldn't be off Rambo'ing on your own.
<!--quoteo(post=1971186:date=Sep 4 2012, 05:54 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 4 2012, 05:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you know how long it takes 8 exos to kill a hive? A little under 10 seconds. Do you know how long it takes an alien player to respawn 3 times? 21 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
attacking the hive to me, means working there way past our defenses. This particular hive was in a 3 walled area, by the time the exo's got in line of sight most of them were dead or badly dmged. they had sent 8 exo's aside from the 4 i killed we also killed 3 more the last exo finished off the hive we lost. They even had welder robots with them lol.
<!--quoteo(post=1971187:date=Sep 4 2012, 05:55 PM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Sep 4 2012, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is why people have said over and over that this is a game about teamwork and you shouldn't be off Rambo'ing on your own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A squad of 5 men runs out of ammo just as fast as a single person, and it is honestly no harder to stay alive vs 5 then it is 1 for a fade. Attrition is all the fade needs to kill all 5 marines 1 by 1
The main flaw I find in your viewpoint is the following. Say you made fades unable to attack structures at all. Say you made fades unable to take carapace or adrenaline. Say you removed their third hive abilities entirely. In your opinion they would still be overpowered, because their ability to kill marines would still remain almost entirely unchanged. Even though all other aspects of the lifeform would be so lacking, you would still see imbalance because you focus on only one, KPD.
<!--quoteo(post=1971189:date=Sep 4 2012, 05:58 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 4 2012, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The main flaw I find in your viewpoint is the following. Say you made fades unable to attack structures at all. Say you made fades unable to take carapace or adrenaline. Say you removed their third hive abilities entirely. In your opinion they would still be overpowered, because their ability to kill marines would still remain almost entirely unchanged. Even though all other aspects of the lifeform would be so lacking, you would still see imbalance because you focus on only one, KPD.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
imo fades don't even need cara or regen, most of them just evade all the dmg anyway/go to a crag/hive. Gorges/commanders man/make these all the time near marine bases/important areas.
The fades strength lies in its essentially foolproof evasive abilities.
where as for instance a jetpacker runs out of steam so fast by comparison its not even funny.
Exo's can't chase down a fade, jp's can't chase down a fade, regular marines sure can't do it.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I think a LOT of you are missing the point he is making.. and just trying to tell him he is wrong because your experiences do not match up with him or you simply have not observed what he has observed: this does not mean it did not happen.
The most important thing to take away from this thread is that the issue does not lie with your average fade nor does it lie with 1 vs 1, and finally it does not lie with the paper theory of X hits vs X speed and energy etc.
Practicality of what is actually occurring is the key: A team that has mostly blinking fades (tier 2) destroys anything the marines have until they hit exo (tier 3) and thus pushes them back to base, never having to deal with structures. I see it all the time, personally, and thus i can agree with what the OP is talking about.
So why the naysaying and references to NS1? Because people aren't taking into account the resource model differences that have occured. For example: <!--quoteo(post=1971121:date=Sep 4 2012, 02:26 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 4 2012, 02:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you mean take them out without retreating even once? Well then the fade is fine.
You could take the best fade in the world, if you put him against 5 competent marines with level 2 guns and level 1 armour, there is no way in hell he will be able to take them down without having to retreat at least a few times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like i said, some of you are assuming 1vs1 and the resource model of NS1 where you might have 1 or two fades... not the practical, realistic scenario that is occurring of 4 or even 5 fades that are coordinating and at no detrimental cost to the team's resources when they purchase these fades. Which brings me to: <!--quoteo(post=1971128:date=Sep 4 2012, 02:31 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Sep 4 2012, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fade and Exo both cost 50 res, and both are dangerous in combat. However,<u> there is NO downside to having an entire team of fades, </u>where an entire team of Exos would lose the game very quickly. It's that combination of speed + incredible combat without sacrifices that makes a fade such a beast. Slowing swipe speed would be an excellent adjustment to try, setting at least some minimum skill level to time your hits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This guy nailed it, and i underlined the most important part.
Ensure the role and lower starting pres (when alien spawn queues and hydras are fixed) and wala.. you have multiple factors assisting in soft RPS mechanics that make mass fading a huge risk, like saving for longer and removing any chance of tanking.
<!--quoteo(post=1971190:date=Sep 5 2012, 01:00 AM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 5 2012, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->imo fades don't even need cara or regen, most of them just evade all the dmg anyway/go to a crag/hive. Gorges/commanders man/make these all the time near marine bases/important areas.
The fades strength lies in its essentially foolproof evasive abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If your main complaint is blink, then I can go along with that. I made a post a week or so ago recommending that blink receive a 1 second cooldown after use, and that the fade receive a health and armour boost to compensate. Not to reduce survivability, but to reduce its erratic movement.
<!--quoteo(post=1971191:date=Sep 5 2012, 01:02 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 5 2012, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This guy nailed it, and i underlined the most important part.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my opinion, the downside is very hard to explain, and is actually not entirely payed by the individual going fade. The downside to the fade, for lack of a better phrase, is that there is no guarantee. Yes, exos get killed by skulks sometimes, sometimes fades mob them and they go down, but this only happens when you make a serious mistake. A heavy that goes out completely alone, or maybe an attack that simply fails. This is when you lose an exo. A fade essentially dies in two shotgun shots, and under 45 LMG bullets. That is 50 res lost in a matter of seconds. You don't even have to be bad for it to happen, sometimes it just does.
So yeah, sure. Fades come out, big turn around, aliens can conquer the world! Two well placed shots, a split second delay in reaction time, and that's it. The fades down. And the loss suffered by the marines when an exo is taken out, is nothing compared to the loss of a fade to the alien team. In my opinion, the commander cost of 30 res for a fade is a bit too low, and I'm sure UWE is looking into that, however that has nothing to do with the power of the fade, which is the issue here.
<!--quoteo(post=1971192:date=Sep 4 2012, 06:03 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 4 2012, 06:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your main complaint is blink, then I can go along with that. I made a post a week or so ago recommending that blink receive a 1 second cooldown after use, and that the fade receive a health and armour boost to compensate. Not to reduce survivability, but to reduce its erratic movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blink needs a cap, it needs a limit a forced limit.
Perhaps something on the order of a pip system like wow or lotro where a Main dps gains the ability to use skills through damage dealt.
I.e. one swing hits a marine the fade gets 3 blink pips the more he miss's and the more he blinks the less pips he has until he can't blink again for x number of seconds til a pip regenerates at a set interval.
For instance he might start with a pool of 6 pips with a regeneration time of 1 pip per 5 seconds.
This is just a silly idea but it could work if done right it would limit the fades ability without limiting its offensive capability or its survivability. A good fade who lands all his hits would still be able to blink away. A bad fade would run out of blinks and would have to run for it. This would also give a fade a almost "reloading" type mirror to the marines, forcing him to wait for pip generation. At the same time it would force a certain level of endurance gaining just like a jetpacker who has to wait for a recharge before he can fly again.
<!--quoteo(post=1971197:date=Sep 5 2012, 01:13 AM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 5 2012, 01:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971197"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Blink needs a cap, it needs a limit a forced limit.
Perhaps something on the order of a pip system like wow or lotro where a Main dps gains the ability to use skills through damage dealt.
I.e. one swing hits a marine the fade gets 3 blink pips the more he miss's and the more he blinks the less pips he has until he can't blink again for x number of seconds til a pip regenerates at a set interval.
For instance he might start with a pool of 6 pips with a regeneration time of 1 pip per 5 seconds.
This is just a silly idea but it could work if done right it would limit the fades ability without limiting its offensive capability or its survivability. A good fade who lands all his hits would still be able to blink away. A bad fade would run out of blinks and would have to run for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The people whom you complain about in your original post would be completely unaffected by this change. This is why I am sceptical about your opinions, they are not very consistent.
Comments
If the counter to that is "the marines should be coordinated", then we're also talking about a rambo fade. If it coordinates with a couple skulks or a bilebombing gorge then the commander's best option is to recicle unatended bases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^pretty much this
Let the skulks do the structure killing while you harass the marine players. Fades don't have to touch a single structure for their team to win.
they also destroy you
No better, no worse. It's like rifle vs shotgun. Different advantages and disadvantages. The way I see fades is they should be faster at moving around the map, better at killing jetpackers etc.
I think this argument is a waste of time though. Anyone with any clue can clearly see how OP the fade is, but you still get naysayers. Even back in build 180 when the fade was ridiculous and literally won the game as soon as the second hive dropped, there was still a huge gang of people saying stupid stuff like "Fade is SUPPOSED to kill marines" "I kill fades all the time, I soloed 3 fades with my eyes closed" blah blah...
It's not even about 50/50 win stats or anything, it's just about the combat situations within the game. It's not fun to be constantly dying to overpowered ######, even if you do win the game at the end. When you die to a fade you don't think "wow that guy was really good", you just get frustrated and feel like it was because he was a fade and not because of his ability.
Currently it takes up to 20min until you see fades, but when you do - its usually a ###### ton of them...
Its more or less pure skulk play in ns2 atm.
I think this argument is a waste of time though. Anyone with any clue can clearly see how OP the fade is, but you still get naysayers. Even back in build 180 when the fade was ridiculous and literally won the game as soon as the second hive dropped, there was still a huge gang of people saying stupid stuff like "Fade is SUPPOSED to kill marines" "I kill fades all the time, I soloed 3 fades with my eyes closed" blah blah...
It's not even about 50/50 win stats or anything, it's just about the combat situations within the game. It's not fun to be constantly dying to overpowered ######, even if you do win the game at the end. When you die to a fade you don't think "wow that guy was really good", you just get frustrated and feel like it was because he was a fade and not because of his ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think there is an actual in game answer to fades. GL's are countered by whips and umbra quite effectively
Fades are countered by nothing effectively, only a few things counter them with mediocrity. The amount of rez that gets wasted just trying too, causes all sorts of issues on marine side. Wasted shotguns, gls, flamethrowers, jetpacks, exo's. Not to mention all the mines and sentries that are essentially useless the moment fades show up.
Also I think blink is still a bit too cheap, adrenaline fades can basically blink around forever, especially if they aren't trying to land a kill, just waste marines time.
Other than that though, I think fades are fine. Shotguns are deadly against them, and even a solo marine with rifle level 3 can kill one, I did, today - lucky as hell of course, since every bullet hit. But anyways.
Yes, comm dropping fades is a bit of a problem. Once kharaa have 2 hives and 4-5 rt's you can just start pumping out fades indefinitely lol.
I think that hit's on what I was try to say about there being something fundementally wrong the game mechanics of a fade. I'm interested in game theory and game design, and I like to collect snippets of design notes from forums and websites, I've even made a few board games and card games of my own.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anti-fun is the negative experience your opponents feel when you do something that prevents them from 'playing their game' or doing activities they consider fun. While everything useful you can do as a player is likely to cause SOME anti-fun in your opponents, it only becomes a design issue when the 'anti-fun' created on your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><a href="http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=293417" target="_blank">source</a><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now playing as a Fade, blinking up to a marine, swiping them down and then blinking away is very fun, but having this happen to you repeatedly as a marine is so frustrating it far outweighs the fun for the Fade. I wish there was more viable tactics to take down Fades other than what has been discussed in the thread.
Fades are countered by nothing effectively, only a few things counter them with mediocrity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why when, earlier today, a fade blinked in on me alone in a room and ate two shotgun shells to the face with no misses, he ran away without landing a single swipe against me?
Lord.
There was a guy in that game, or maybe a later one, that complained that marines <i>being able to jump</i> was OP. Of course he ran at you in a straight line on the floor and missed the majority of his bites.
Pressure resources, kill RTs, keep the alien team struggling for res. Force them to expend pres on gorges and lerks.
These kinds of complaints are basically always the result of games where the marines had two RTs vs. the aliens' five and then they complain about "balance".
Good aim - and let me stress that my aim sucks - is the single most powerful effect in this game, for both marines and aliens. Good movement skills are the second most powerful, and good placement is the third.
Edit: and of course, if you think fading is soooooooooo OP, then do it. I want to see some screenshots - preferably video - of you getting 10:1 K:D ratios as fade. I want to see screenshots where you've got 3-4 marine kills racked up in the upper right corner.
I have observed at least 5 different people in this thread in agreement besides me the op. you might want to recheck that.
<!--quoteo(post=1971166:date=Sep 4 2012, 05:32 PM:name=paella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paella @ Sep 4 2012, 05:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971166"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is why when, earlier today, a fade blinked in on me alone in a room and ate two shotgun shells to the face with no misses, <b>he ran away without landing a single swipe against me?
</b>
Lord.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
note the bolded part, you shot him twice in the face yet he still got away regened and came back, you didn't kill him. You expended ammo and essentially made yourself weaker every time he attacks.
note the bolded part, you shot him twice in the face yet he still got away regened and came back, you didn't kill him. You expended ammo and essentially made yourself weaker every time he attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, if you expect 2 hits to kill a high lifeform, I've got some seriously bad news for you
He's not saying it should. He's saying the marine is using up all his ammo, and the fade can keep doing what he's doing alllll day (delaying the marine every step of the way)
who said anything about me expecting them to die in 2 hits, I am talking about them not dieing ever. A properly played fade is invincible, sure they are forced to retreat now and again or maybe they do it as a matter of course. But the fact of the matter is they don't die. As long as they don't die its just a matter of time til your out of ammo, and you die.
And to all the people who argue 4-5 marines should be able to handle 1 fade easily. So what happens when there 8 fades and 8 marines, the essential unbalancing effect they have on the game is too great to ignore.
o.O
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->8 fades and 8 marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) this isn't even possible, lifeforms are capped based on teamsize
b) if it were possible, an alien team that has a 400 resource advantage over a marine team at a given timing absolutely should lose, yes
o.O
a) this isn't even possible, lifeforms are capped based on teamsize
b) if it were possible, an alien team that has a 400 resource advantage over a marine team at a given timing absolutely should lose, yes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it doesnt start out at 8 fades it starts with one fade that never dies. <-- the root cause.
I already, and someone else already answered your first question.
Comparably an onos costs 75 res and is far easier to kill then a fade. Why should a fade that is a 50 res lifeform be harder to kill then a 75 res lifeform>?
Exo's are 50 and 75 res, does this mean that the Exo is the answer to fades? because a fade can literally never die to an exo if he doesn't want to. forget about the exo "chasing down" a fade to finish them exo are the slowest units with no sprint ability.
blink in attack blink out regen blink in attack blink out regen blink in attack blink out regen blink in attack blink out regen
I prefer to look at like, "If you punish a player for something they couldn't avoid = frustration" I think that comes from valve. Of course it is frustrating to play against players who are much better than you, but in most games even if you get out played then you know that you could have played better, you know if you had aimed better then you would have killed them instead. The fade can literary just w+m1 towards a marine with a rifle and just slash away even if he hits with every single bullet. As said in this thread, the fades rate of fire is crazy, there are many times where you don't miss a single shot and still die. You literally couldn't have done anything more because of the rate of fire of the gun and yet you still "lose".
A good Fade can run away from just about anything, sure, but that doesn't mean they're doing anything useful. The safer they play the less opportunity they have to do any damage. Time is a valuable resource in this game - if you chase the Fade away maybe that gives you the opportunity to kill an RT, or a hive. Anybody can be the last alien standing as a Fade while their team loses the game. The Fade has no choice but to risk his life in order to have a chance at stopping a powerful marine push.
8 exos vs 8 [insert alien lifeform here], exos will win.
The exos aren't overpowered, why would the fades be?
8 exos vs 8 [insert alien lifeform here], exos will win.
The exos aren't overpowered, why would the fades be?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I single handedly killed 4 exos attacking our hive as a skulk, I re-spawned 4 times took an exo out with each life
8 exos means no welders and no welders means dead exo's
Exosuits don't have the means to teleport halfway across the map to an armory, like a fade does to a crag or hive/gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=1971181:date=Sep 4 2012, 05:49 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Sep 4 2012, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A good Fade can run away from just about anything, sure, but that doesn't mean they're doing anything useful. The safer they play the less opportunity they have to do any damage. Time is a valuable resource in this game - if you chase the Fade away maybe that gives you the opportunity to kill an RT, or a hive. Anybody can be the last alien standing as a Fade while their team loses the game. The Fade has no choice but to risk his life in order to have a chance at stopping a powerful marine push.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your statement would seem in direct opposition to the 70-0 fades I have seen play. they obviouly killed more marines/shutdown more outward push's yet they didn't die once. It would seem that a fade does not need to risk his life to gain great strides in defeating the marines, and preventing forward momentum.
This is the key problem with games like NS. At the ten minute mark, you pay for what happened at the 5 minute mark. But nobody remembers what happened at the 5 minute mark, so everyone thinks that it is imbalanced. You could have avoided what happened to you, but you couldn't have avoided it in <b>that </b>encounter. You had to avoid it 5 minutes ago.
8 exos means no welders and no welders means dead exo's<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you know how long it takes 8 exos to kill a hive? A little under 10 seconds. Do you know how long it takes an alien player to respawn 3 times? 21 seconds.
Which is why people have said over and over that this is a game about teamwork and you shouldn't be off Rambo'ing on your own.
attacking the hive to me, means working there way past our defenses. This particular hive was in a 3 walled area, by the time the exo's got in line of sight most of them were dead or badly dmged. they had sent 8 exo's aside from the 4 i killed we also killed 3 more the last exo finished off the hive we lost. They even had welder robots with them lol.
<!--quoteo(post=1971187:date=Sep 4 2012, 05:55 PM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Sep 4 2012, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is why people have said over and over that this is a game about teamwork and you shouldn't be off Rambo'ing on your own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A squad of 5 men runs out of ammo just as fast as a single person, and it is honestly no harder to stay alive vs 5 then it is 1 for a fade. Attrition is all the fade needs to kill all 5 marines 1 by 1
imo fades don't even need cara or regen, most of them just evade all the dmg anyway/go to a crag/hive. Gorges/commanders man/make these all the time near marine bases/important areas.
The fades strength lies in its essentially foolproof evasive abilities.
where as for instance a jetpacker runs out of steam so fast by comparison its not even funny.
Exo's can't chase down a fade, jp's can't chase down a fade, regular marines sure can't do it.
The most important thing to take away from this thread is that the issue does not lie with your average fade nor does it lie with 1 vs 1, and finally it does not lie with the paper theory of X hits vs X speed and energy etc.
Practicality of what is actually occurring is the key: A team that has mostly blinking fades (tier 2) destroys anything the marines have until they hit exo (tier 3) and thus pushes them back to base, never having to deal with structures. I see it all the time, personally, and thus i can agree with what the OP is talking about.
So why the naysaying and references to NS1? Because people aren't taking into account the resource model differences that have occured. For example:
<!--quoteo(post=1971121:date=Sep 4 2012, 02:26 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 4 2012, 02:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you mean take them out without retreating even once? Well then the fade is fine.
You could take the best fade in the world, if you put him against 5 competent marines with level 2 guns and level 1 armour, there is no way in hell he will be able to take them down without having to retreat at least a few times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like i said, some of you are assuming 1vs1 and the resource model of NS1 where you might have 1 or two fades... not the practical, realistic scenario that is occurring of 4 or even 5 fades that are coordinating and at no detrimental cost to the team's resources when they purchase these fades.
Which brings me to:
<!--quoteo(post=1971128:date=Sep 4 2012, 02:31 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Sep 4 2012, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fade and Exo both cost 50 res, and both are dangerous in combat. However,<u> there is NO downside to having an entire team of fades, </u>where an entire team of Exos would lose the game very quickly.
It's that combination of speed + incredible combat without sacrifices that makes a fade such a beast. Slowing swipe speed would be an excellent adjustment to try, setting at least some minimum skill level to time your hits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This guy nailed it, and i underlined the most important part.
Ensure the role and lower starting pres (when alien spawn queues and hydras are fixed) and wala.. you have multiple factors assisting in soft RPS mechanics that make mass fading a huge risk, like saving for longer and removing any chance of tanking.
The fades strength lies in its essentially foolproof evasive abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If your main complaint is blink, then I can go along with that. I made a post a week or so ago recommending that blink receive a 1 second cooldown after use, and that the fade receive a health and armour boost to compensate. Not to reduce survivability, but to reduce its erratic movement.
<!--quoteo(post=1971191:date=Sep 5 2012, 01:02 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 5 2012, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This guy nailed it, and i underlined the most important part.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my opinion, the downside is very hard to explain, and is actually not entirely payed by the individual going fade. The downside to the fade, for lack of a better phrase, is that there is no guarantee. Yes, exos get killed by skulks sometimes, sometimes fades mob them and they go down, but this only happens when you make a serious mistake. A heavy that goes out completely alone, or maybe an attack that simply fails. This is when you lose an exo. A fade essentially dies in two shotgun shots, and under 45 LMG bullets. That is 50 res lost in a matter of seconds. You don't even have to be bad for it to happen, sometimes it just does.
So yeah, sure. Fades come out, big turn around, aliens can conquer the world! Two well placed shots, a split second delay in reaction time, and that's it. The fades down. And the loss suffered by the marines when an exo is taken out, is nothing compared to the loss of a fade to the alien team. In my opinion, the commander cost of 30 res for a fade is a bit too low, and I'm sure UWE is looking into that, however that has nothing to do with the power of the fade, which is the issue here.
Blink needs a cap, it needs a limit a forced limit.
Perhaps something on the order of a pip system like wow or lotro where a Main dps gains the ability to use skills through damage dealt.
I.e. one swing hits a marine the fade gets 3 blink pips the more he miss's and the more he blinks the less pips he has until he can't blink again for x number of seconds til a pip regenerates at a set interval.
For instance he might start with a pool of 6 pips with a regeneration time of 1 pip per 5 seconds.
This is just a silly idea but it could work if done right it would limit the fades ability without limiting its offensive capability or its survivability. A good fade who lands all his hits would still be able to blink away. A bad fade would run out of blinks and would have to run for it. This would also give a fade a almost "reloading" type mirror to the marines, forcing him to wait for pip generation. At the same time it would force a certain level of endurance gaining just like a jetpacker who has to wait for a recharge before he can fly again.
Perhaps something on the order of a pip system like wow or lotro where a Main dps gains the ability to use skills through damage dealt.
I.e. one swing hits a marine the fade gets 3 blink pips the more he miss's and the more he blinks the less pips he has until he can't blink again for x number of seconds til a pip regenerates at a set interval.
For instance he might start with a pool of 6 pips with a regeneration time of 1 pip per 5 seconds.
This is just a silly idea but it could work if done right it would limit the fades ability without limiting its offensive capability or its survivability. A good fade who lands all his hits would still be able to blink away. A bad fade would run out of blinks and would have to run for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The people whom you complain about in your original post would be completely unaffected by this change. This is why I am sceptical about your opinions, they are not very consistent.