<!--quoteo(post=1971078:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:32 PM:name=Banzai¥)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Banzai¥ @ Sep 4 2012, 03:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well it really is; I'm going to throw a name under the bus but [Inv]Joe managed to get 138-8 as a Fade simply by spamming Blink and swipe (though his aim is 'great.') As a Skulk he isn't nearly as good and you notice he'll go Fade as soon as he can. Obviously the worst part of that game was the 3-4 Fades that swarmed with him. Fades are very spongy as of late but seem to take a noticeable amount of damage compared to the days when I could solo an average Fade player with a shotgun in the Builds of delayed swipes and invulnerable blinks. Don't get me wrong; I don't think it should be 1vs1 Marine win situations unless the Fade is really bad but having 4-6 Fades on a team really destroys the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades get more kills than Skulks. They also get less buildings than skulks. Kills don't win NS2, teamwork wins NS2.
Also, surprise, someone with tags is dominating in pubs. I've topped scoreboards in kills and points using only my axe, does that mean axe is crazy OP?
<!--quoteo(post=1971057:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:11 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 4 2012, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason so many people think Fades are overpowered is because they are entirely focused on how effective the fade is at killing people. Ahmigad that fade blinked in and two shotted me and I only got half a clip off! Who cares? Did your death win them the game? Did that kill make him stronger in any way? of course not. People don't understand that, apart from killing marines, a fade can do nothing. Fades take 35% longer to kill structures than skulks, a free lifeform, do, and destroying structures is a pretty big part of a strategy game.
Saying Fades are imbalanced because they kill marines is like saying Exos are imbalanced because they have so much health. When you are fighting them, that's all you see. You don't see the negative side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
killing marines is the goal isn't it? stopping them from taking res nodes keeping them from repairing structures, making it impossible to advance forward. You make it seem like killing a marine is a pointless endevour when in the long term a class that can lock down the map is going to control the res, and whoever controls the res will enevitably win the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1971078:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:32 PM:name=Banzai¥)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Banzai¥ @ Sep 4 2012, 03:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well it really is; I'm going to throw a name under the bus but [Inv]Joe managed to get 138-8 as a Fade simply by spamming Blink and swipe (though his aim is 'great.') As a Skulk he isn't nearly as good and you notice he'll go Fade as soon as he can. Obviously the worst part of that game was the 3-4 Fades that swarmed with him. Fades are very spongy as of late but seem to take a noticeable amount of damage compared to the days when I could solo an average Fade player with a shotgun in the Builds of delayed swipes and invulnerable blinks. Don't get me wrong; I don't think it should be 1vs1 Marine win situations unless the Fade is really bad but having 4-6 Fades on a team really destroys the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree it really does destroy the gameplay
<!--quoteo(post=1971079:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:33 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 4 2012, 03:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades get more kills than Skulks. They also get less buildings than skulks. Kills don't win NS2, teamwork wins NS2.
Also, surprise, someone with tags is dominating in pubs. I've topped scoreboards in kills and points using only my axe, does that mean axe is crazy OP?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats just it Fades don't need teamwork, they literally can do it all on there own as long as a gorge is building. Fades are the anti team mate, the kill jock and the guy who would gladly run away to let you die to save his own butt.
<!--quoteo(post=1971066:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:21 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Sep 4 2012, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if by "suck" you mean go 25-4 instead of 40-0<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually its more like 30-20 or 40-18. It's not a simple matter of how many kills a fade gets its how many it gets in ratio to it's deaths.
A skulk gets 40 kills thats awesome but he died 18 times thats 18 run backs from spawn 18 reevolutions, and who knows how many times he almost died and went to regenerate.
A fade gets 70 kills and dies 0 times no lost rez from dieing, no reevolutions, no runs back from respawn. And if he finally does die half the time theres a fade egg waiting for him when he hits spawn.
<!--quoteo(post=1971081:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:35 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->killing marines is the goal isn't it? stopping them from taking res nodes keeping them from repairing structures, making it impossible to advance forward. You make it seem like killing a marine is a pointless endevour when in the long term a class that can lock down the map is going to control the res, and whoever controls the res will enevitably win the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Killing marines is not the goal, no. You don't win the game when you kill a certain number of marines. It's not deathmatch mode.
Fades don't take strategic locations, fades don't take resource towers away from marines. If you have a hive room locked down, fades aren't going to clear it out. They will blink in, kill some marines, take some damage, blink out to avoid dying, and by the time they returns, all the marines they killed have already phased back in. There are two stages to take an area; killing the inhabitants, and clearing their structures. Fades do the first part, they can't do the second part.
<!--quoteo(post=1971081:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:35 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats just it Fades don't need teamwork, they literally can do it all on there own as long as a gorge is building. Fades are the anti team mate, the kill jock and the guy who would gladly run away to let you die to save his own butt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again. The only thing Fades can do is kill marines. If you think killing marines equates to winning the game, then you are still in COD mode. Currently, the ability which most players regard as the most imbalanced is Bile Bomb. Bile Bomb can't even kill marines.
In NS1 it was not only about killing Fades, it was about making damage and getting rid of them, until you could make a solid push. So d/k ratio isn't very strong of an argument. When they never die, they are most of the time <i>not</i> in the battle, but regenerating.
Fades are hard to play in NS2, they die very fast and I don't feel they are OP right now. They should be even faster (gain momentum over time when not being blocked, like NS1 Bhop). Because it just rocks. Some skill-based movement is what I miss.
I didn't see a cheating or scripting Fade in NS2 yet. Even in NS1 it didn't make sense to script, because Bhop was very easy to do with blink; all you needed to do was getting fluidly over ramps and not hit corners.
<!--quoteo(post=1971081:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:35 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 03:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats just it Fades don't need teamwork, they literally can do it all on there own as long as a gorge is building. Fades are the anti team mate, the kill jock and the guy who would gladly run away to let you die to save his own butt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They need teamwork against good players.
Stop making grandiose accusations about how NS2 is "ruined" from your occasional chaos-filled pub experience. The win/loss says Fades aren't breaking NS2, competitive says Fades aren't breaking NS2; at some point you're just complaining about how bad your teammates (or opponents) suck. I could (and have) pull(ed) those kind of insane kill streaks with the switch-axe, but the axe is the weakest weapon in the Marine arsenal.
Your personal anecdotes are not the damning battery of rigorous data you seem to be representing them as.
<!--quoteo(post=1971092:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:44 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 4 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They need teamwork against good players.
Stop making grandiose accusations about how NS2 is "ruined" from your occasional chaos-filled pub experience. The win/loss says Fades aren't breaking NS2, competitive says Fades aren't breaking NS2, at some point you're just complaining about how bad your teammates (or opponents) suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not occasional its every day at least 3-4 times a day on multiple servers with multiple good players.
I was on the nexil server for over 6 hours and the aliens never lost the fades dominated the map and we even had a game where the marines were 10 people and the aliens were 7 the entire game and the aliens still won.
<!--quoteo(post=1971087:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:42 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 4 2012, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Killing marines is not the goal, no. You don't win the game when you kill a certain number of marines. It's not deathmatch mode.
Fades don't take strategic locations, fades don't take resource towers away from marines. If you have a hive room locked down, fades aren't going to clear it out. They will blink in, kill some marines, take some damage, blink out to avoid dying, and by the time they returns, all the marines they killed have already phased back in. There are two stages to take an area; killing the inhabitants, and clearing their structures. Fades do the first part, they can't do the second part.
Once again. The only thing Fades can do is kill marines. If you think killing marines equates to winning the game, then you are still in COD mode. Currently, the ability which most players regard as the most imbalanced is Bile Bomb. Bile Bomb can't even kill marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a fade locks down an area so that no marines can build res nodes/cap command chair areas I call that pretty hefty.
You might think killing marines doesnt matter but when you have 5 marines taking a com area and 1 fade destroys them all and destroys everything in the com area before backup arrives that is pretty devastating to the marine team. Who cares about the marines that died its what they could have done had they lived I.e. established a new base repaired a power node setup a res node for extractors. Hold an area in defense while new upgrades are built.
<!--quoteo(post=1971094:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:46 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not occasional its every day at least 3-4 times a day on multiple servers with multiple good players.
I was on the nexil server for over 6 hours and the aliens never lost the fades dominated the map and we even had a game where the marines were 10 people and the aliens were 7 the entire game and the aliens still won.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "With multiple good players." Oh, well if you thought they were <i>good</i>...
Go play PUGs, go play competitive, then come back with some arguments beyond "I see fades getting kills in pubs". Right now you're just incorrectly extrapolating unreliable data.
<!--quoteo(post=1971096:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:48 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 4 2012, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"With multiple good players." Oh, well if you thought they were <i>good</i>...
Go play PUGs, go play competitive, then come back with some arguments beyond "I see fades getting kills in pubs". Right now you're just incorrectly extrapolating unreliable data.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats what you think, probably because you play fade yourself and only want to defend the exploitation of an overpowered class yourself.
<!--quoteo(post=1971090:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:44 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Sep 4 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't see a cheating or scripting Fade in NS2 yet. Even in NS1 it didn't make sense to script, because Bhop was very easy to do with blink; all you needed to do was getting fluidly over ramps and not hit corners.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scripting is a common place thing in ns1 You honestly can't go into a server right now and not find one person with a script command. On these very forums are threads where people Defend and outright declare scripting as a legit method of play, and they are talking about ns2 not ns1
<!--quoteo(post=1971079:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:33 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 4 2012, 03:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades get more kills than Skulks. They also get less buildings than skulks. Kills don't win NS2, teamwork wins NS2.
Also, surprise, someone with tags is dominating in pubs. I've topped scoreboards in kills and points using only my axe, does that mean axe is crazy OP?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We aren't talking topped scoreboards; we're talking 40-2/140-8 scores compared to your usual 6-1 with an axe (Unless you're coming in with, '6-1? I do 70-0 because I can just make up random situations.' Fades can also lock Marines into their base without hope of leaving regardless whether or not they can all pour out one-way... we already made that point when users pointed out that Fades attack faster than Skulks and are far more effective at killing. Sure they can't kill buildings but they can severely hamper Marines into 5-20 minute games where Fades lock-down Marine bases for the other aliens to destroy RTs.
<!--quoteo(post=1971094:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:46 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 10:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You might think killing marines doesnt matter but when you have 5 marines taking a com area and 1 fade destroys them all and destroys everything in the com area before backup arrives that is pretty devastating to the marine team. Who cares about the marines that died its what they could have done had they lived I.e. established a new base repaired a power node setup a res node for extractors. Hold an area in defense while new upgrades are built.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a single fade takes a fortified marine position, he is just playing against noobs. I'v seen Dual minigun exos go down to a single skulk, you don't see me calling for exo buffs.
<!--quoteo(post=1971081:date=Sep 4 2012, 01:35 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually its more like 30-20 or 40-18. It's not a simple matter of how many kills a fade gets its how many it gets in ratio to it's deaths.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is the funniest part of the argument! Going 30-20 as a skulk over the length of a game is amazing! Crazy good. If you have 1:1 Kill death ratio by the late game, and you have only been playing skulk, you are a god. (or the other team is bad)
One of the easiest ways to see if you are being out played is to look at the KD of skulks at around minute 5. If skulks have a K:D over 1.0 by then chances are good marines are being steam rolled.
The skulk is arguable the weakest unit in the game, especially by late game marines should steam roll skulks for free.
NS2 is a strategy game, fades are SUPPOSED to be better than marines. FULL STOP.
It is a design feature that fades are more powerful than 1-2 marines. This starts to change as the marines get more upgrades but is relatively true the entire game. The time and res it takes to go fade offsets this advantage.
Maybe the tres for eggs is making it a problem as there are too many fades in the game right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1971098:date=Sep 4 2012, 08:50 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 08:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Scripting is a common place thing in ns1 You honestly can't go into a server right now and not find one person with a script command. On these very forums are threads where people Defend and outright declare scripting as a legit method of play, and they are talking about ns2 not ns1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know. And I don't like scripting at all. But you didn't need a script for the Fade in NS1. At least I don't see a reason to have a script. Nothing hard to do with the Fade, it was perfectly balanced movement.
EDIT: I for myself did bind the mousewheel to +jump in NS1 (not exactly scripting). It was for all classes, but the Fade ^^
<!--quoteo(post=1971099:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:50 PM:name=Banzai¥)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Banzai¥ @ Sep 4 2012, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971099"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We aren't talking topped scoreboards; we're talking 40-2/140-8 scores compared to your usual 6-1 with an axe (Unless you're coming in with, '6-1? I do 70-0 because I can just make up random situations.' Fades can also lock Marines into their base without hope of leaving regardless whether or not they can all pour out one-way... we already made that point when users pointed out that Fades attack faster than Skulks and are far more effective at killing. Sure they can't kill buildings but they can severely hamper Marines into 5-20 minute games where Fades lock-down Marine bases for the other aliens to destroy RTs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is generally what I see as well, the game will progress normaly with each side taking res nodes and each side contesting them trying to keep the other from having them. battles are happening all over the map in ordered fashion where the com wants, then the fades appear and the marines always put up a valient effort. Then the same result always happens the marines get pushed back to there base where the fades relentlessly assault until they when. The marines try to push out over and over and fail over and over.
The capacity for fades is too high, no one should ever have a 140-8 k:d in a game and in the event that ever happens there team is most assuredly going to win just from the sheer fact that a marine team without builders that can move our and conquer an area is useless and doomed to failure
<!--quoteo(post=1971107:date=Sep 4 2012, 04:05 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 4 2012, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lets put this another way. How much better should the fade be at killing marines compared to the skulk?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
less than fades current capacity. No one should ever be able to obtain a score like 148-0 in a game let alone have the capacity to. The fade class has too high of a ceiling to its abilities.
Let me give a frame of reference.
If i am a marine I can fire 50 bullets out of my gun before I have to reload I have to run at x speed walk at X speed. There are clear limits to the ability of a marine.
Fades currently have no such limits, and in the hands of a very skill person or a cheater it becomes a weapon no one can stand against.
<!--quoteo(post=1971107:date=Sep 4 2012, 04:05 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 4 2012, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lets put this another way. How much better should the fade be at killing marines compared to the skulk?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's been discussed; the damage is fine or could even get a slight buff but the RoF on the primary-swipe is just too fast for how it's supposed to be more tactical than heavily offensive. The Fade shouldn't be able to swamp a group of 3-5 marine players in just two-goes but slowly take them out (Regardless of all the marines having rifles, shotguns, or a mixture of the two.) At least in my opinion~
<!--quoteo(post=1971109:date=Sep 4 2012, 11:11 PM:name=Banzai¥)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Banzai¥ @ Sep 4 2012, 11:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's been discussed; the damage is fine or could even get a slight buff but the RoF on the primary-swipe is just too fast for how it's supposed to be more tactical than heavily offensive. The Fade shouldn't be able to swamp a group of 3-5 marine players in just two-goes but slowly take them out (Regardless of all the marines having rifles, shotguns, or a mixture of the two.) At least in my opinion~<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you mean take them out without retreating even once? Well then the fade is fine.
You could take the best fade in the world, if you put him against 5 competent marines with level 2 guns and level 1 armour, there is no way in hell he will be able to take them down without having to retreat at least a few times.
I find this thread to be so overblown it borders on ludicrous.
We are seriously discussing nerfing the fade because it is "capable" of huge K:D ratios?
Really?
All this says to me is exactly what it is saying to some of the other people in this thread: More Skill = More GG.
If a Fade is completely dominating to the points you're talking about the game was lost waaaaaay before the fade came onto the field.
I have not seen a single game in the current patch in which fades turned the game around so single-handedly. It just doesn't happen unless there is something else that is allowing them to exploit the niche they are literally designed to exploit: a low-maneuverability marine team with low upgrades.
If you find a way to not be the above marine team, surprise, fades are not the gods this thread is making them out to be.
I do get what you are talking about with the Fade. FPS shooters are sort of like playing chess, you have to know the levels well and then position yourself in the map well for the most effective shot on target and plan of attack.
Fades are basically like the queen, except she can pass through players and move again after attacking.
I am no pro, but I regularly go about 25-4 on rounds where I get to fade early. They are fun as hell to play, but hard as hell to track even if you have 35 fps.
Do I enjoy the feeling of being uber powerful? yes! But I really think fades are too good on their own. For example, Fade and Exo both cost 50 res, and both are dangerous in combat. However, there is NO downside to having an entire team of fades, where an entire team of Exos would lose the game very quickly. It's that combination of speed + incredible combat without sacrifices that makes a fade such a beast. Slowing swipe speed would be an excellent adjustment to try, setting at least some minimum skill level to time your hits.
<!--quoteo(post=1971123:date=Sep 4 2012, 02:27 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Sep 4 2012, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do get what you are talking about with the Fade. FPS shooters are sort of like playing chess, you have to know the levels well and then position yourself in the map well for the most effective shot on target and plan of attack.
Fades are basically like the queen, except she can pass through players and move again after attacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't help but think there's something fundamentally wrong with the design of a fade. I'm new to natural selection, never played ns1 before, so I'm looking at each class from a fresh perspective. I think it would be interesting to see how the game would play given the fade had an different kind of attack, so that fades cannot do any damage to structures. This would make a big tradeoff for having a team full of fades. It is too close to release to make such big changes as this but I would like to see a mod of this, does anybody else think on similar terms?
Perky, fades already do pitiful damage to structures. It is literally more valuable to roam the map for 5 minutes looking for marines than it is to stand next to an RT and swipe.
<!--quoteo(post=1971057:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:11 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 4 2012, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades take 35% longer to kill structures than skulks, a free lifeform, do, and destroying structures is a pretty big part of a strategy game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does it matter much? If you're a skulk and a marine arrives when you're munching on an extractor, you're in trouble. If you're a fade, you kill the marine/s and finish the extractor, even if it takes 35% more time; even beter, as those marines were not pressuring <i>your</i> extractors. If you're killing a phase gate and marines phase to save it, you just kill the marines, the skulk is toast. Beacon? Observatories are so fragile that 35% more time isn't that much of a difference.
If the counter to that is "the marines should be coordinated", then we're also talking about a rambo fade. If it coordinates with a couple skulks or a bilebombing gorge then the commander's best option is to recicle unatended bases.
<!--quoteo(post=1971135:date=Sep 4 2012, 04:37 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 4 2012, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Out of curiosity Sherwood, how many bullets do you think it takes to kill an unupgraded fade?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bullets don't really matter when its almost impossible to hit them. I watched 5 marines all shoot a fade point blank twice and no kill. They didn't miss with the shotgun but the shotgun has such a horrible spread pattern most of the pellets did miss. The fade returned wiped out all the marines camped the shotguns til they dissapeared and no more shotgun marines for at least 20 more res.
<!--quoteo(post=1971145:date=Sep 4 2012, 04:53 PM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Sep 4 2012, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You would hate playing NS1. Fades were faster, tankier, had a self heal, a ranged splash attack, and a Focus damage modifier.
Compared to the previous game's incarnation they are a cakewalk. With proper skills and equipment a Marine can solo a fade easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone always says this yet i doubt your talking about any fade of consequence. No different then the previous posters example of a skulk killing an exo, if it is done its done because the person in the exo wasn't the best of players. The same goes for 1v1's vs bad fades, the difference between a bad fade and a 148-0 fade is not even in the realm of reason.
Oh, this thread. Try using shotguns. And really work on your timing/aim. You'll be pleasantly surprised to see how many fades retreat and even die with a couple good shots. For a very easy and relative cheap tech (Armory --> Shotguns) it's something to think about getting early.
Now, as for the khamm dropping cheap fades, that could use some attention (i.e. raise the costs higher if not back to pres cost).
<!--quoteo(post=1971144:date=Sep 4 2012, 11:49 PM:name=Rowen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rowen @ Sep 4 2012, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does it matter much? If you're a skulk and a marine arrives when you're munching on an extractor, you're in trouble. If you're a fade, you kill the marine/s and finish the extractor, even if it takes 35% more time; even beter, as those marines were not pressuring <i>your</i> extractors. If you're killing a phase gate and marines phase to save it, you just kill the marines, the skulk is toast. Beacon? Observatories are so fragile that 35% more time isn't that much of a difference.
If the counter to that is "the marines should be coordinated", then we're also talking about a rambo fade. If it coordinates with a couple skulks or a bilebombing gorge then the commander's best option is to recicle unatended bases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We aren't talking about a rambo fade, we are apparently talking about an invincible one. If all the fade has to do is just kill any marine he comes up against, why doesn't marine spawn fall the second someone goes fade? You know. Just blink over there, and take out the comm chair. If the comm beacons, just kill all the marines. When a marine spawns in, just kill him. If the comm jumps out, just kill him.
<!--quoteo(post=1971151:date=Sep 4 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 4 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We aren't talking about a rambo fade, we are apparently talking about an invincible one. If all the fade has to do is just kill any marine he comes up against, why doesn't marine spawn fall the second someone goes fade? You know. Just blink over there, and take out the comm chair. If the comm beacons, just kill all the marines. When a marine spawns in, just kill him. If the comm jumps out, just kill him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol its kinda ironic but that is exactly what happens when these invincible fades show up. the marine spawn is locked down until other players show up to start to destroy the buildings.
These invincible fades are only interested in kills anyway, but the side effect is that it ruins the game play and momentum of the round. Thing is there not invincible because there cheating not like a invincibility cheat in CS <b>they are just that way because the game is setup with all the tools required to allow them to be.</b>
Comments
Fades are very spongy as of late but seem to take a noticeable amount of damage compared to the days when I could solo an average Fade player with a shotgun in the Builds of delayed swipes and invulnerable blinks. Don't get me wrong; I don't think it should be 1vs1 Marine win situations unless the Fade is really bad but having 4-6 Fades on a team really destroys the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades get more kills than Skulks. They also get less buildings than skulks. Kills don't win NS2, teamwork wins NS2.
Also, surprise, someone with tags is dominating in pubs. I've topped scoreboards in kills and points using only my axe, does that mean axe is crazy OP?
Saying Fades are imbalanced because they kill marines is like saying Exos are imbalanced because they have so much health. When you are fighting them, that's all you see. You don't see the negative side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
killing marines is the goal isn't it? stopping them from taking res nodes keeping them from repairing structures, making it impossible to advance forward. You make it seem like killing a marine is a pointless endevour when in the long term a class that can lock down the map is going to control the res, and whoever controls the res will enevitably win the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1971078:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:32 PM:name=Banzai¥)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Banzai¥ @ Sep 4 2012, 03:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well it really is; I'm going to throw a name under the bus but [Inv]Joe managed to get 138-8 as a Fade simply by spamming Blink and swipe (though his aim is 'great.') As a Skulk he isn't nearly as good and you notice he'll go Fade as soon as he can. Obviously the worst part of that game was the 3-4 Fades that swarmed with him.
Fades are very spongy as of late but seem to take a noticeable amount of damage compared to the days when I could solo an average Fade player with a shotgun in the Builds of delayed swipes and invulnerable blinks. Don't get me wrong; I don't think it should be 1vs1 Marine win situations unless the Fade is really bad but having 4-6 Fades on a team really destroys the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree it really does destroy the gameplay
<!--quoteo(post=1971079:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:33 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 4 2012, 03:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades get more kills than Skulks. They also get less buildings than skulks. Kills don't win NS2, teamwork wins NS2.
Also, surprise, someone with tags is dominating in pubs. I've topped scoreboards in kills and points using only my axe, does that mean axe is crazy OP?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats just it Fades don't need teamwork, they literally can do it all on there own as long as a gorge is building. Fades are the anti team mate, the kill jock and the guy who would gladly run away to let you die to save his own butt.
<!--quoteo(post=1971066:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:21 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Sep 4 2012, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if by "suck" you mean go 25-4 instead of 40-0<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually its more like 30-20 or 40-18. It's not a simple matter of how many kills a fade gets its how many it gets in ratio to it's deaths.
A skulk gets 40 kills thats awesome but he died 18 times thats 18 run backs from spawn 18 reevolutions, and who knows how many times he almost died and went to regenerate.
A fade gets 70 kills and dies 0 times no lost rez from dieing, no reevolutions, no runs back from respawn. And if he finally does die half the time theres a fade egg waiting for him when he hits spawn.
Killing marines is not the goal, no. You don't win the game when you kill a certain number of marines. It's not deathmatch mode.
Fades don't take strategic locations, fades don't take resource towers away from marines. If you have a hive room locked down, fades aren't going to clear it out. They will blink in, kill some marines, take some damage, blink out to avoid dying, and by the time they returns, all the marines they killed have already phased back in. There are two stages to take an area; killing the inhabitants, and clearing their structures. Fades do the first part, they can't do the second part.
<!--quoteo(post=1971081:date=Sep 4 2012, 10:35 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats just it Fades don't need teamwork, they literally can do it all on there own as long as a gorge is building. Fades are the anti team mate, the kill jock and the guy who would gladly run away to let you die to save his own butt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again. The only thing Fades can do is kill marines. If you think killing marines equates to winning the game, then you are still in COD mode. Currently, the ability which most players regard as the most imbalanced is Bile Bomb. Bile Bomb can't even kill marines.
In NS1 it was not only about killing Fades, it was about making damage and getting rid of them, until you could make a solid push. So d/k ratio isn't very strong of an argument. When they never die, they are most of the time <i>not</i> in the battle, but regenerating.
Fades are hard to play in NS2, they die very fast and I don't feel they are OP right now. They should be even faster (gain momentum over time when not being blocked, like NS1 Bhop). Because it just rocks. Some skill-based movement is what I miss.
I didn't see a cheating or scripting Fade in NS2 yet. Even in NS1 it didn't make sense to script, because Bhop was very easy to do with blink; all you needed to do was getting fluidly over ramps and not hit corners.
They need teamwork against good players.
Stop making grandiose accusations about how NS2 is "ruined" from your occasional chaos-filled pub experience. The win/loss says Fades aren't breaking NS2, competitive says Fades aren't breaking NS2; at some point you're just complaining about how bad your teammates (or opponents) suck. I could (and have) pull(ed) those kind of insane kill streaks with the switch-axe, but the axe is the weakest weapon in the Marine arsenal.
Your personal anecdotes are not the damning battery of rigorous data you seem to be representing them as.
Stop making grandiose accusations about how NS2 is "ruined" from your occasional chaos-filled pub experience. The win/loss says Fades aren't breaking NS2, competitive says Fades aren't breaking NS2, at some point you're just complaining about how bad your teammates (or opponents) suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not occasional its every day at least 3-4 times a day on multiple servers with multiple good players.
I was on the nexil server for over 6 hours and the aliens never lost the fades dominated the map and we even had a game where the marines were 10 people and the aliens were 7 the entire game and the aliens still won.
<!--quoteo(post=1971087:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:42 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 4 2012, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Killing marines is not the goal, no. You don't win the game when you kill a certain number of marines. It's not deathmatch mode.
Fades don't take strategic locations, fades don't take resource towers away from marines. If you have a hive room locked down, fades aren't going to clear it out. They will blink in, kill some marines, take some damage, blink out to avoid dying, and by the time they returns, all the marines they killed have already phased back in. There are two stages to take an area; killing the inhabitants, and clearing their structures. Fades do the first part, they can't do the second part.
Once again. The only thing Fades can do is kill marines. If you think killing marines equates to winning the game, then you are still in COD mode. Currently, the ability which most players regard as the most imbalanced is Bile Bomb. Bile Bomb can't even kill marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a fade locks down an area so that no marines can build res nodes/cap command chair areas I call that pretty hefty.
You might think killing marines doesnt matter but when you have 5 marines taking a com area and 1 fade destroys them all and destroys everything in the com area before backup arrives that is pretty devastating to the marine team. Who cares about the marines that died its what they could have done had they lived I.e. established a new base repaired a power node setup a res node for extractors. Hold an area in defense while new upgrades are built.
I was on the nexil server for over 6 hours and the aliens never lost the fades dominated the map and we even had a game where the marines were 10 people and the aliens were 7 the entire game and the aliens still won.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"With multiple good players." Oh, well if you thought they were <i>good</i>...
Go play PUGs, go play competitive, then come back with some arguments beyond "I see fades getting kills in pubs". Right now you're just incorrectly extrapolating unreliable data.
Go play PUGs, go play competitive, then come back with some arguments beyond "I see fades getting kills in pubs". Right now you're just incorrectly extrapolating unreliable data.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats what you think, probably because you play fade yourself and only want to defend the exploitation of an overpowered class yourself.
<!--quoteo(post=1971090:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:44 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Sep 4 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't see a cheating or scripting Fade in NS2 yet. Even in NS1 it didn't make sense to script, because Bhop was very easy to do with blink; all you needed to do was getting fluidly over ramps and not hit corners.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scripting is a common place thing in ns1 You honestly can't go into a server right now and not find one person with a script command. On these very forums are threads where people Defend and outright declare scripting as a legit method of play, and they are talking about ns2 not ns1
Also, surprise, someone with tags is dominating in pubs. I've topped scoreboards in kills and points using only my axe, does that mean axe is crazy OP?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We aren't talking topped scoreboards; we're talking 40-2/140-8 scores compared to your usual 6-1 with an axe (Unless you're coming in with, '6-1? I do 70-0 because I can just make up random situations.'
Fades can also lock Marines into their base without hope of leaving regardless whether or not they can all pour out one-way... we already made that point when users pointed out that Fades attack faster than Skulks and are far more effective at killing. Sure they can't kill buildings but they can severely hamper Marines into 5-20 minute games where Fades lock-down Marine bases for the other aliens to destroy RTs.
If a single fade takes a fortified marine position, he is just playing against noobs. I'v seen Dual minigun exos go down to a single skulk, you don't see me calling for exo buffs.
this is the funniest part of the argument! Going 30-20 as a skulk over the length of a game is amazing! Crazy good. If you have 1:1 Kill death ratio by the late game, and you have only been playing skulk, you are a god. (or the other team is bad)
One of the easiest ways to see if you are being out played is to look at the KD of skulks at around minute 5. If skulks have a K:D over 1.0 by then chances are good marines are being steam rolled.
The skulk is arguable the weakest unit in the game, especially by late game marines should steam roll skulks for free.
NS2 is a strategy game, fades are SUPPOSED to be better than marines. FULL STOP.
It is a design feature that fades are more powerful than 1-2 marines. This starts to change as the marines get more upgrades but is relatively true the entire game. The time and res it takes to go fade offsets this advantage.
Maybe the tres for eggs is making it a problem as there are too many fades in the game right now.
I know. And I don't like scripting at all.
But you didn't need a script for the Fade in NS1. At least I don't see a reason to have a script. Nothing hard to do with the Fade, it was perfectly balanced movement.
EDIT: I for myself did bind the mousewheel to +jump in NS1 (not exactly scripting). It was for all classes, but the Fade ^^
Fades can also lock Marines into their base without hope of leaving regardless whether or not they can all pour out one-way... we already made that point when users pointed out that Fades attack faster than Skulks and are far more effective at killing. Sure they can't kill buildings but they can severely hamper Marines into 5-20 minute games where Fades lock-down Marine bases for the other aliens to destroy RTs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is generally what I see as well, the game will progress normaly with each side taking res nodes and each side contesting them trying to keep the other from having them. battles are happening all over the map in ordered fashion where the com wants, then the fades appear and the marines always put up a valient effort. Then the same result always happens the marines get pushed back to there base where the fades relentlessly assault until they when. The marines try to push out over and over and fail over and over.
The capacity for fades is too high, no one should ever have a 140-8 k:d in a game and in the event that ever happens there team is most assuredly going to win just from the sheer fact that a marine team without builders that can move our and conquer an area is useless and doomed to failure
less than fades current capacity. No one should ever be able to obtain a score like 148-0 in a game let alone have the capacity to. The fade class has too high of a ceiling to its abilities.
Let me give a frame of reference.
If i am a marine I can fire 50 bullets out of my gun before I have to reload I have to run at x speed walk at X speed. There are clear limits to the ability of a marine.
Fades currently have no such limits, and in the hands of a very skill person or a cheater it becomes a weapon no one can stand against.
It's been discussed; the damage is fine or could even get a slight buff but the RoF on the primary-swipe is just too fast for how it's supposed to be more tactical than heavily offensive. The Fade shouldn't be able to swamp a group of 3-5 marine players in just two-goes but slowly take them out (Regardless of all the marines having rifles, shotguns, or a mixture of the two.)
At least in my opinion~
At least in my opinion~<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you mean take them out without retreating even once? Well then the fade is fine.
You could take the best fade in the world, if you put him against 5 competent marines with level 2 guns and level 1 armour, there is no way in hell he will be able to take them down without having to retreat at least a few times.
We are seriously discussing nerfing the fade because it is "capable" of huge K:D ratios?
Really?
All this says to me is exactly what it is saying to some of the other people in this thread: More Skill = More GG.
If a Fade is completely dominating to the points you're talking about the game was lost waaaaaay before the fade came onto the field.
I have not seen a single game in the current patch in which fades turned the game around so single-handedly. It just doesn't happen unless there is something else that is allowing them to exploit the niche they are literally designed to exploit: a low-maneuverability marine team with low upgrades.
If you find a way to not be the above marine team, surprise, fades are not the gods this thread is making them out to be.
Fades are basically like the queen, except she can pass through players and move again after attacking.
Do I enjoy the feeling of being uber powerful? yes! But I really think fades are too good on their own. For example, Fade and Exo both cost 50 res, and both are dangerous in combat. However, there is NO downside to having an entire team of fades, where an entire team of Exos would lose the game very quickly.
It's that combination of speed + incredible combat without sacrifices that makes a fade such a beast. Slowing swipe speed would be an excellent adjustment to try, setting at least some minimum skill level to time your hits.
Fades are basically like the queen, except she can pass through players and move again after attacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And we can't block them unlike NS1
Does it matter much? If you're a skulk and a marine arrives when you're munching on an extractor, you're in trouble. If you're a fade, you kill the marine/s and finish the extractor, even if it takes 35% more time; even beter, as those marines were not pressuring <i>your</i> extractors. If you're killing a phase gate and marines phase to save it, you just kill the marines, the skulk is toast. Beacon? Observatories are so fragile that 35% more time isn't that much of a difference.
If the counter to that is "the marines should be coordinated", then we're also talking about a rambo fade. If it coordinates with a couple skulks or a bilebombing gorge then the commander's best option is to recicle unatended bases.
Fades were faster, tankier, had a self heal, a ranged splash attack, and a Focus damage modifier.
Compared to the previous game's incarnation they are a cakewalk. With proper skills and equipment a Marine can solo a fade easily.
Bullets don't really matter when its almost impossible to hit them. I watched 5 marines all shoot a fade point blank twice and no kill. They didn't miss with the shotgun but the shotgun has such a horrible spread pattern most of the pellets did miss. The fade returned wiped out all the marines camped the shotguns til they dissapeared and no more shotgun marines for at least 20 more res.
<!--quoteo(post=1971145:date=Sep 4 2012, 04:53 PM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Sep 4 2012, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You would hate playing NS1.
Fades were faster, tankier, had a self heal, a ranged splash attack, and a Focus damage modifier.
Compared to the previous game's incarnation they are a cakewalk. With proper skills and equipment a Marine can solo a fade easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone always says this yet i doubt your talking about any fade of consequence. No different then the previous posters example of a skulk killing an exo, if it is done its done because the person in the exo wasn't the best of players. The same goes for 1v1's vs bad fades, the difference between a bad fade and a 148-0 fade is not even in the realm of reason.
Now, as for the khamm dropping cheap fades, that could use some attention (i.e. raise the costs higher if not back to pres cost).
If the counter to that is "the marines should be coordinated", then we're also talking about a rambo fade. If it coordinates with a couple skulks or a bilebombing gorge then the commander's best option is to recicle unatended bases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We aren't talking about a rambo fade, we are apparently talking about an invincible one. If all the fade has to do is just kill any marine he comes up against, why doesn't marine spawn fall the second someone goes fade? You know. Just blink over there, and take out the comm chair. If the comm beacons, just kill all the marines. When a marine spawns in, just kill him. If the comm jumps out, just kill him.
lol its kinda ironic but that is exactly what happens when these invincible fades show up. the marine spawn is locked down until other players show up to start to destroy the buildings.
These invincible fades are only interested in kills anyway, but the side effect is that it ruins the game play and momentum of the round. Thing is there not invincible because there cheating not like a invincibility cheat in CS <b>they are just that way because the game is setup with all the tools required to allow them to be.</b>