Energy
AurOn2
COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
<div class="IPBDescription">Can i have it back now?</div>This is a seriously missed feature, some people are still not understanding it's been gone for a few builds now and it's hard saying 'theres no energy' with a straight face. I still do not see why it was removed. a very bad choice :/
Comments
I really haven't seen one singular instance where I thought "damn,.if only we had energy still.." As every time I thought that we deserved the repercussions that came from our failure(s)
I also enjoy the added skill level that comes with balancing support vs tech vs expansion, unlike the old days of tech vs expansion only, with support having it's own pool to pull from, and having little connection with the rest of your strategy besides waiting for the pool to fill up again.
Yeah.
Only problem is that's the only building/ability it works well for.
Only problem is that's the only building/ability it works well for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it works in the same way for beacons, crag umbra, etc etc
Anything that would map to an ability triggered by a single structure in another RTS like Starcraft 2, basically.
When there's no incentive to make several observatories (other than for redundancy) you're missing an opportunity for some interesting gameplay, and frankly I still don't understand what's to be gained from it. Maybe somebody needs to post a 10,000 word rant with no factual basis to clue me in..
It worked in NS1 on energy and it seemed like a good advantage for marines to be able to have map awareness without the need to have to spend the amount of money on buying another obs just to scan 5 times.
With that logic just having more than 1 obs and being on energy works in the same way. Yet you are able to beacon at key moments when res is low on the team. 10 tres for a beacon is pretty high... especially since it was once a very viable tactic for pushing 2nd hive... now I laugh when a comm beacons to rush. It's a gigantic waste of res, and when you really need to beacon most it will cost you 10 res... which is probably just another nail in your coffin in the end.
I feel the same way AuroN2, I loved energy, but like Ironhorse says, in a 'game design' sense, we don't miss it ... obs still works, crag still fart bombs etc etc, dont get me wrong I liked how one had to manage the extra pseudo-resource, but is it Ozcams Razor or whatever that seems to hold here ... the game plays out 99% the same for something that affected way over 1% of the game.
(for some reason I feel I should be wikiing 'elasticity' for a reminder of what I'm actually trying to say ... meh)
Anything that would map to an ability triggered by a single structure in another RTS like Starcraft 2, basically.
When there's no incentive to make several observatories (other than for redundancy) you're missing an opportunity for some interesting gameplay, and frankly I still don't understand what's to be gained from it. Maybe somebody needs to post a 10,000 word rant with no factual basis to clue me in..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eeeeeeh, not Beacon. Insta-respawn definitely should have a cost.
The main strong suit of Energy is to create a limited separate resource pool. So you're either constantly depleting it or you can spam it to a cap in a short period. It can also incentivize multiples of the same building (getting two Obs in NS1 when Aliens are heavily cloaking and for sieges). So temporary advantage abilities like the Crag Umbra or Scans are great for energy systems. Similarly the Armory Armor heals works well with energy so you can't constantly get the benefit.
Beacon isn't really worth the resources now that it doesn't revive dead players. Though I admit it's still necessary in the last resort where all your team are away from base and no way to get back to defend an ambush. I'm not saying it should revive dead players again, but I feel this nerf is balanced out more by use of energy.
Without energy, it's one less thing to promote building extra cc's around the map. At the moment it feels like the only reason it's good is to be able to beacon to forward bases (a tactic again nerfed by having no energy and no revive for beaconing), and the 'last resort' that your original base is destroyed (by that time it's gg unless you have good marines working as a team and you manage to pull something outta your ass). Tying energy to CC's for nano-shield gives more motivation for extra ccs and makes it a more viable option to use them. Also promotes more dominance as you gain more map control - being able to offer more support. Aliens get advantages for more than one hive, but as it stands, there are few real advantages to expanding for marine team, beyond the map control and resources from map control, in which case, extra CC's don't matter and are entirely optional.
Having said all that, the whole thing about the commander having to balance his/her resources for support/tech/expansion as opposed to just tech/expansion is a good point. There are definitely advantages and disadvantages to the removal of energy. I'm not sure which side I'm on though.
What if there was Energy on just one building, Power Node/Command Station//Hive , so the Commander would need to balance between different abilities. Or maybe old system could use some tweaks, to be honest I didn't dislike the system, but got used to the new one now.
With energy, the limiting factor was how fast the commander could click. With t-res for everything, sometimes the best thing to do is ... nothing.
With energy, the limiting factor was how fast the commander could click. With t-res for everything, sometimes the best thing to do is ... nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I strongly beg to differ. This repeated sentiment that energy was spammable just wasn't the case untill it was implemented for medpacks and ammopacks and only then for those two support items. Obs energy wasn't a cheap resource and was tied to tres quite nicely. But hey, i've spent enough effort reasoning why energy was a good thing and why dual cost energy + res would be even better so i don't exactly care anymore at this point.
On the same topic, beacon should go back to teleporting all dead and alive marines ala ns1. It was only ever changed to its current implementation because it started out with an energy cost and obs spam while not winning you the game created incredibly strong stalemates.
Complaints about energy causing the limiting factor to be how fast the commander could click does not point to fundamental problems with an energy system but rather how fast that energy is accumulating. The current tres system would also suffer the same problem if we were to increase tres income to abnormal levels.
Ah hell i'll do it.
<a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U9Jr5GEAoR6wii-eKopNDrNExxWuI29AL8Of-zEfq3k/edit?pli=1" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U9Jr5GE...fq3k/edit?pli=1</a>
There ya go lads
If you can produce a 'why energy is bad' document just as long, or at least as long as is possible, i'll shut up a bout the subject.
Anyway:
Energy gives one thing:
Player controled cooldowns
NAMELY STRATEGY.
That's what the game needs
So bring the damned function BACK.
Currently the game has a fake energy system, why can we not have the old, PROPER, energy system, this mock energy (ARMORY, APARENTLY HAS SOME SORT OF ENERGY SYSTEM, GO FIGUR)
Energy lead to strategising, Logisitisising your abilities, so therefore was a GOOD FEATURE
Whoever says it is a unintuitive feature is obviously foolish and needs a slap in the head with a long bit of text that says otherwise.
And mat makes a good point! Why spend res on something when there's no capital gain? Need that energy back where you had one extra thing to think about, ragh.
And theres my long bit of text that says otherwise.
Global features like Scan can work with Energy just fine. It doesn't even have to scale as strongly with more players. Typically the squads just get bigger and only a little more spread out, so each Scan is still roughly equivalent cost and similar number of uses. Similarly several Alien structure abilities are only used sparingly anyways, so no scaling problem.
And Energy isn't free either. I can't tell you how many times in NS1 my Obs ran out of Energy during a siege and the Hive was <20% health, losing us the fight.
When used judiciously and selectively, Energy as a resource can work.
Yes, one aspect of NS is the RTS style of building/expansion/resource management, but the other half of the game is a First Person Shooter, and I don't necessarily want my success or failure in a FPS to be so greatly dependent on one person activating the right cooldown at the right moment.
Granted, we already have many of these sorts of abilities present in the game, med packs and ammo for one, and I'm perfectly happy with the way the function now. My point is that the gameplay style I think is being described with tying energy to cooldowns is already largely present in the game in other forms, and I don't see the benefit of greatly increasing its role in the game.
Adding a third resource system, and increasing the complexity of the gameplay model, would necessitate additional tweaking of other gameplay mechanics. You can see this readily by moving the bar in the opposite direction, by say removing complexity by making medpacks and ammo completely free. The game is simpler now, and the availablity of med packs and ammo is now only dependent on the rate at which the commander can drop them. But I think we'd all agree that this dramatically changes the tactical perspective of the marine gameplay now.
From a technical standpoint its a small change, and opposite of what you're suggesting, but its the same sort of change being suggested. And even though it technically simplifies one aspect of the game, by removing the need to really decide whether or not dropping med/ammo packs is worthwhile, we still suddenly need to rethink the rest of the game in order to make sure the change is balanced somehow.
The addition of a third resource system, and tying more abilities / cooldowns to it does sound like a good idea, and honestly I'm a fan of giving players greater control over game mechanics. But at this stage, it really would require a very hard look, and more than likely serious tweaking of most aspects of the game simply to balance its inclusion.
There are benefits to this idea, but I think the drawbacks over shadow them.
There would be no third commander resource. Tres and energy. If i count correctly thats two.
If you are going to contest that, contest it with the developer.
If you are going to contest that, contest it with the developer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually i wrote that google docs a long time ago <b>in support of energy</b> and the only reference i made to a third resource was that it wasn't relevant (pres). Its not even necessary to assert that anymore given that the commander now has no pres system. It is currently a one res system.
Alien comm has developed quite nicely though and there are many variations in strategy.
Regardless, my point is still valid even if I'm wrong about that, as my point was really that modifying anything related to the resource system requires a hard look at the rest of the game, as everything is balanced around it.
Its not a simple matter of "it would be more fun and interesting, so lets do it." There are only two comms in each game, and while everyone should be having fun, the role of the comm should be both intuitive, and it should not be the dominating feature of the entire game play system.
I think focusing on my mistake regarding whether or not there are two or three resource systems is silly as it misses the point I was making all together.
Hell, even remove the silly energy function the armory have atm.
There was nothing 'free' about energy, you had to spend res to get more energy income, say, if you had one obs, you would have to worry about having enough energy to beacon if ever you needed it, or, you could spend 15 res for an obs dedicated to the beaconing.
Now, you just get one of everything and don't bother supporting anyone. pointless to even bother. wheres your 'tactical depth' now?
Totaly agree!
There was nothing 'free' about energy, you had to spend res to get more energy income, say, if you had one obs, you would have to worry about having enough energy to beacon if ever you needed it, or, you could spend 15 res for an obs dedicated to the beaconing.
Now, you just get one of everything and don't bother supporting anyone. pointless to even bother. wheres your 'tactical depth' now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you get to decide whether to ARC spam or be able to beacon. There's your depth. Energy was FREE, and having ###### like beacon and scan be free was BS.