Bump their cost to 15 and try that out. When balancing something as expensive as jetpacks, you need to take baby steps. If you butcher this 80+ tres investment then it will simply never get used, just like it was for oh-so-many patches previously.
<!--quoteo(post=1963650:date=Aug 15 2012, 04:47 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Aug 15 2012, 04:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->skulks have been able to double leap for several patches now... :|<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
really? weird, it didn't let me yesterday when i tried. maybe i needed adren.
<!--quoteo(post=1963727:date=Aug 16 2012, 02:18 AM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Aug 16 2012, 02:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the real issue lies in the aliens' ability to combat them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1963680:date=Aug 16 2012, 08:13 AM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Aug 16 2012, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->jet packs are not cheap at all. from purely a resource perspective you have to buy an Armory > Advanced Armory > 2nd Comm Chair > Proto Lab > Research Jetpacks thats a lot more than 10 res.....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm gonna have to agree. I thought a cost increase to 15-20 for JP was reasonable, until I realized how much it cost to research in the first place. I generally see Fades out before JP's anyway, and unless the Fade is foolish I find it pretty unbeatable without a JP; so perhaps a balance could be to increase the pres cost of JP's while reducing the research cost. But then this would increase symmetry in the teams, so maybe the balance is already right.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1963753:date=Aug 15 2012, 06:39 PM:name=Foxodi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Foxodi @ Aug 15 2012, 06:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so perhaps a balance could be to increase the pres cost of JP's while reducing the research cost. But then this would increase symmetry in the teams, so maybe the balance is already right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Eh, i dont exactly see tons of Onos out on the field these days.. and that may be because of their low HP, but it also could be because of the economical difference. (aliens suffer more from no pres while dead + wave spawning) despite not having much of a pres sink.
So i still say increase the cost slightly and then observe the results. Nobody wants them to be unused like they used to be, but we also don't need the frequency that we have now, where its a no brianer to get one. (trade offs, yada yada)
JP requirements: Second Command Station (15) + Advanced Armory (20) + Prototype Lab (30) + Research Jetpack (25) = 90 It will take about 4 minutes (15 + 90 + 20 + 90 sec) and another 20 second for just placing stuff.
Useful (not just <i>any</i>) fade requirements: Second Hive (40) + which leads us to 10-15 res for cysts + Blink (30) = 70-75. 4 minutes and 16 seconds at least (120 + 90 + 4x10-15 sec) with a bot-like commander. For human you should add one or two minutes.
i.e. it's only 20~15 tRes difference. When for aliens getting an useful fade takes much more time.
--
Does 20 tRes (one-time payment) really worth 40 additional pRes for a single fade? Not really. Two JPs can take a hive down, one JP can ninja kill some Shells. Fades good only for killing people, and even it needs some actual skills and team support.
There is an excellent example of great advantage that JPs have: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxzWhxxbXSA&feature=player_detailpage#t=1261s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxzWhxxbXSA...ailpage#t=1261s</a>
If you marine and it's clearly a gg for you, you still can have some fun with JP and Grenade Launcher. It's really hard for aliens to take marines' last stand, if they have JP and all upgrades. But in aliens' case you basically starting hate the game in situations like this. Even if you have resources, you still heed evolve to <i>something</i>. While you're doing this, you most likely will get a shoot in the face. Marines spawning almost instantly, while for aliens it's taking a while.
<!--quoteo(post=1963727:date=Aug 15 2012, 05:18 PM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Aug 15 2012, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jetpacks are very fun to use, very unfun to fight. I think the real issue lies in the aliens' ability to combat them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, pretty much. The easy way to fix this problem would be nerfing jetpacks, but the better way would be to give Aliens a more suitable counter. Whether that be increased air mobility as a fade/skulk, or increased ability options to deal with them as any class(maybe Gorge web?).
Though, 15 cost for the JPs still seems reasonable. They won't go unused at 15, they're too much of a boon to a Marine to go unused.
i would like the lerk to counter jp's more than fades and skulks, since fades are the counter to every other marine...and there's no reason to give skulks more than a small chance to beat jp's (given that they're free and a t1 unit). fades should obviously hold their own against jp's, but i don't think they should necessarily have an advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=1963656:date=Aug 15 2012, 05:02 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 15 2012, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is actually a very legitimate concern.
Just like in NS1, certain rooms heavily favor certain play styles and roles. JPs absolutely murder things if they have a large enough room to maneuver. And the mega-room in NS2 that tend to dominate the map unlike the corridors in NS1 don't help.
Leaping Skulks in NS1 had a decent chance of picking off a JP if they weren't careful. Fades and Lerks were even better at it. And Gorge web really ruined their days. But the bigger the room the bigger the JP's advantage was to just displace and dodge everything jumping at it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the remakes of the NS1 maps should fix this then!
<!--quoteo(post=1963727:date=Aug 15 2012, 08:18 PM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Aug 15 2012, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jetpacks are very fun to use, very unfun to fight. I think the real issue lies in the aliens' ability to combat them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another thing that needs to considered here is the armory giving back armor again.
You need to kill him with 4 hits or he will just fly back to the armory and heal himself up to 100%. Having to weld each other puts two marines out of combat and buys the aliens at least some more time.
I think Cory said in another thread, that Armor 3 will be decreased so that a fade can kill a JPer with 3 swipes.
4 Swipes is ridiculous
And yes, Armory healing armor is not that good....there was a limit introduced too, did you guys ever noticed that "Energy Limit?". I could imagine that this feature is a nice trade-off beetween armory healing armor and not, but it should be notable.
As someone already noted: Jet packs are fun. (Mostly because you need very little skill to get an advantage.) But fighting jet packs is frustrating. (Because you need very much skill to kill a jetpacker.)
The solution can not be to make jet packs less fun. They should keep their big advantage, but should actually require skill. There should simply be more ways to fail with a jet pack if you are bad. But not an overall nerf. <b>Slower recharge the emptier a jet pack is</b>, could be a way. You should be able to stay in the air as long as now, when you use it with skill. But if you make a mistake and use it to long, you have to pay. That means you should be grounded for longer than now.
Additionally it should be more fun to fight jet packs as aliens (=easier).
What do we have to battle them now?<ul><li>Leap+bite with skulk. Maybe its my bad aim, but I can't land a leap+bite on them no matter how often I try. It seems to require very much skill. Maybe you could drain the fuel of the jet pack when hitting a marine with leap. Not to much, so he is a sitting duck after one hit. But enough to get a little window of opportunity.</li><li>Spikes with lerk. Again my aim, but I have problems killing a wildly flying jet packer before he can kill a hive. If there are two, the hive is down, no matter what. Lerk spikes are inaccurate. This is necessary to not overpower him, because he needs enough health to go in close to marines. Thats why he needs to be weaker in long range. But adding a push back to jet packers when you hit them with spikes could be used to fight them skillful as lerk. (For example you could try to hit the jet pack from above to bring it slowly down by push back.)</li><li>Blink+swipe with fade. This actually feels not this difficult. But I have to admit, that I haven't tried it with 216 and the energy tweaks.</li></ul>
Those sound like frustrating mechanics to add to the game.
How about you just increase the cost to a reasonable 15 pres? 50% more res investment for each jetpack. Along with some armor 3 nerfs (so fades = 3 swipes at a3), the jetpacks would be much more balanced. Still powerful, but more expensive.
This wouldn't make the jp less powerful. Only easier counter able and to be used with more skill. Face it, you don't need skill to get a big advantage out of jet packs right now. Is this really what we want for the game?
<!--quoteo(post=1963889:date=Aug 16 2012, 06:46 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 16 2012, 06:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This wouldn't make the jp less powerful. Only easier counter able and to be used with more skill. Face it, you don't need skill to get a big advantage out of jet packs right now. Is this really what we want for the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Every single one of your suggestions would add frustration to the game.
Jetpacks are a huge upgrade, but it's not without precedent in the game. How much power do skulks get when they get leap? How much strength do alien players get when they evolve to fade? How much strength do mediocore marines get when they pick up mines and spam them all over the floor 60 seconds into a game?
No, the focus shouldn't be on how low the skill floor is, but how high the skill ceiling is. Jetpacks at the high end of the skill spectrum are very good, but so are fades. They're what balance each other out.
<!--quoteo(post=1963892:date=Aug 16 2012, 06:51 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 16 2012, 06:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, the focus shouldn't be on how low the skill floor is, but how high the skill ceiling is. Jetpacks at the high end of the skill spectrum are very good, but so are fades. They're what balance each other out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this to an extent. Balance should be done for the high end of the skill level but that doesn't mean there can't be a "skill floor" introduced. A bad fade just ends up getting dead while doing nothing, a bad jet-packer can still be useful to his team.
It's hard to evaluate a moving target: there are still items being added to the game, so what you're talking about is balancing build 216, not the game in general. Once the gorge and onos get their final abilities, and the exo is added, we will have to have this discussion all over again
So- in the context of build 216- yes, a pres cost of 15 and a fuel regen nerf could be a good solution. I don't think the aliens current abilities need any kind of buff. Personally I think the jet pack should also force forward momentum, like the skulk leap ability, which would solve the incredibly frustrating ability of jp marines to fly backwards and shoot...
<!--quoteo(post=1963727:date=Aug 15 2012, 05:18 PM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Aug 15 2012, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jetpacks are very fun to use, very unfun to fight. I think the real issue lies in the aliens' ability to combat them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1963803:date=Aug 15 2012, 09:12 PM:name=Nukoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nukoe @ Aug 15 2012, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963803"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, pretty much. The easy way to fix this problem would be nerfing jetpacks, but the better way would be to give Aliens a more suitable counter. Whether that be increased air mobility as a fade/skulk, or increased ability options to deal with them as any class(maybe Gorge web?).
Though, 15 cost for the JPs still seems reasonable. They won't go unused at 15, they're too much of a boon to a Marine to go unused.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think going to 15 to start with 20 in a future patch is a good idea. Also, I find it very frustrating when facing JPs as a Skulk, Onos, or Gorge, especially in big rooms. I honestly wish there was just a better counter to JPers. I don't know what this is. But from what I've seen the best counter is Fade w/ blink (good), Lerk (ok), Skulk w/ leap (ok), and that's it. There really isn't a direct counter to them, so either you boost one of the oks to good, or you intro a new skill or class to deal with it (new class, i know I'm dreaming). Maybe gorge web or something similar so that a gorge doesn't feel helpless. Just a thought.
Or maybe put spikes on top of all hives so they can't just land up there.
When comparing NS1 and NS2 jetpacks, keep in mind that NS1 jetpacks were subject to <b>full gravity</b> instead of half gravity. Using an NS2 jetpack with full gravity changes it completely. It also has the bonus side effect of making the physics more consistent, and thus, making it easier to judge how to leap/blink in order to land attacks.
Of course, if you change the gravity to the default of -24, it will feel really weird. This is because the default gravity has always been too strong. It's probably the reason why the jetpack needed a gravity modifier to begin with.
Maybe an increased "start fuel amount" is needed. What i mean is that jetpacks fly just like they do now, but the jetpacks fuel/energie gets drained a little bit more everytime the jetpack start (jetpack button is hit). This way they can fly as long as they do now... but not if they release the jetpack button and then push it again all the time.
Comments
really? weird, it didn't let me yesterday when i tried. maybe i needed adren.
from purely a resource perspective you have to buy an Armory > Advanced Armory > 2nd Comm Chair > Proto Lab > Research Jetpacks
thats a lot more than 10 res.....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm gonna have to agree. I thought a cost increase to 15-20 for JP was reasonable, until I realized how much it cost to research in the first place.
I generally see Fades out before JP's anyway, and unless the Fade is foolish I find it pretty unbeatable without a JP; so perhaps a balance could be to increase the pres cost of JP's while reducing the research cost.
But then this would increase symmetry in the teams, so maybe the balance is already right.
But then this would increase symmetry in the teams, so maybe the balance is already right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh, i dont exactly see tons of Onos out on the field these days.. and that may be because of their low HP, but it also could be because of the economical difference. (aliens suffer more from no pres while dead + wave spawning) despite not having much of a pres sink.
So i still say increase the cost slightly and then observe the results.
Nobody wants them to be unused like they used to be, but we also don't need the frequency that we have now, where its a no brianer to get one. (trade offs, yada yada)
Second Command Station (15) + Advanced Armory (20) + Prototype Lab (30) + Research Jetpack (25) = 90
It will take about 4 minutes (15 + 90 + 20 + 90 sec) and another 20 second for just placing stuff.
Useful (not just <i>any</i>) fade requirements:
Second Hive (40) + which leads us to 10-15 res for cysts + Blink (30) = 70-75.
4 minutes and 16 seconds at least (120 + 90 + 4x10-15 sec) with a bot-like commander. For human you should add one or two minutes.
i.e. it's only 20~15 tRes difference.
When for aliens getting an useful fade takes much more time.
--
Does 20 tRes (one-time payment) really worth 40 additional pRes for a single fade? Not really. Two JPs can take a hive down, one JP can ninja kill some Shells.
Fades good only for killing people, and even it needs some actual skills and team support.
There is an excellent example of great advantage that JPs have:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxzWhxxbXSA&feature=player_detailpage#t=1261s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxzWhxxbXSA...ailpage#t=1261s</a>
If you marine and it's clearly a gg for you, you still can have some fun with JP and Grenade Launcher. It's really hard for aliens to take marines' last stand, if they have JP and all upgrades.
But in aliens' case you basically starting hate the game in situations like this. Even if you have resources, you still heed evolve to <i>something</i>. While you're doing this, you most likely will get a shoot in the face. Marines spawning almost instantly, while for aliens it's taking a while.
Yeah, pretty much. The easy way to fix this problem would be nerfing jetpacks, but the better way would be to give Aliens a more suitable counter. Whether that be increased air mobility as a fade/skulk, or increased ability options to deal with them as any class(maybe Gorge web?).
Though, 15 cost for the JPs still seems reasonable. They won't go unused at 15, they're too much of a boon to a Marine to go unused.
Just like in NS1, certain rooms heavily favor certain play styles and roles. JPs absolutely murder things if they have a large enough room to maneuver. And the mega-room in NS2 that tend to dominate the map unlike the corridors in NS1 don't help.
Leaping Skulks in NS1 had a decent chance of picking off a JP if they weren't careful. Fades and Lerks were even better at it. And Gorge web really ruined their days. But the bigger the room the bigger the JP's advantage was to just displace and dodge everything jumping at it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the remakes of the NS1 maps should fix this then!
<!--quoteo(post=1963727:date=Aug 15 2012, 08:18 PM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Aug 15 2012, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jetpacks are very fun to use, very unfun to fight. I think the real issue lies in the aliens' ability to combat them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Qft.
You need to kill him with 4 hits or he will just fly back to the armory and heal himself up to 100%. Having to weld each other puts two marines out of combat and buys the aliens at least some more time.
4 Swipes is ridiculous
And yes, Armory healing armor is not that good....there was a limit introduced too, did you guys ever noticed that "Energy Limit?". I could imagine that this feature is a nice trade-off beetween armory healing armor and not, but it should be notable.
Jet packs are fun. (Mostly because you need very little skill to get an advantage.)
But fighting jet packs is frustrating. (Because you need very much skill to kill a jetpacker.)
The solution can not be to make jet packs less fun. They should keep their big advantage, but should actually require skill. There should simply be more ways to fail with a jet pack if you are bad. But not an overall nerf. <b>Slower recharge the emptier a jet pack is</b>, could be a way. You should be able to stay in the air as long as now, when you use it with skill. But if you make a mistake and use it to long, you have to pay. That means you should be grounded for longer than now.
Additionally it should be more fun to fight jet packs as aliens (=easier).
What do we have to battle them now?<ul><li>Leap+bite with skulk. Maybe its my bad aim, but I can't land a leap+bite on them no matter how often I try. It seems to require very much skill. Maybe you could drain the fuel of the jet pack when hitting a marine with leap. Not to much, so he is a sitting duck after one hit. But enough to get a little window of opportunity.</li><li>Spikes with lerk. Again my aim, but I have problems killing a wildly flying jet packer before he can kill a hive. If there are two, the hive is down, no matter what. Lerk spikes are inaccurate. This is necessary to not overpower him, because he needs enough health to go in close to marines. Thats why he needs to be weaker in long range. But adding a push back to jet packers when you hit them with spikes could be used to fight them skillful as lerk. (For example you could try to hit the jet pack from above to bring it slowly down by push back.)</li><li>Blink+swipe with fade. This actually feels not this difficult. But I have to admit, that I haven't tried it with 216 and the energy tweaks.</li></ul>
How about you just increase the cost to a reasonable 15 pres? 50% more res investment for each jetpack. Along with some armor 3 nerfs (so fades = 3 swipes at a3), the jetpacks would be much more balanced. Still powerful, but more expensive.
Every single one of your suggestions would add frustration to the game.
Jetpacks are a huge upgrade, but it's not without precedent in the game. How much power do skulks get when they get leap? How much strength do alien players get when they evolve to fade? How much strength do mediocore marines get when they pick up mines and spam them all over the floor 60 seconds into a game?
No, the focus shouldn't be on how low the skill floor is, but how high the skill ceiling is. Jetpacks at the high end of the skill spectrum are very good, but so are fades. They're what balance each other out.
I agree with this to an extent. Balance should be done for the high end of the skill level but that doesn't mean there can't be a "skill floor" introduced. A bad fade just ends up getting dead while doing nothing, a bad jet-packer can still be useful to his team.
So- in the context of build 216- yes, a pres cost of 15 and a fuel regen nerf could be a good solution. I don't think the aliens current abilities need any kind of buff. Personally I think the jet pack should also force forward momentum, like the skulk leap ability, which would solve the incredibly frustrating ability of jp marines to fly backwards and shoot...
<!--quoteo(post=1963803:date=Aug 15 2012, 09:12 PM:name=Nukoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nukoe @ Aug 15 2012, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963803"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, pretty much. The easy way to fix this problem would be nerfing jetpacks, but the better way would be to give Aliens a more suitable counter. Whether that be increased air mobility as a fade/skulk, or increased ability options to deal with them as any class(maybe Gorge web?).
Though, 15 cost for the JPs still seems reasonable. They won't go unused at 15, they're too much of a boon to a Marine to go unused.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think going to 15 to start with 20 in a future patch is a good idea. Also, I find it very frustrating when facing JPs as a Skulk, Onos, or Gorge, especially in big rooms. I honestly wish there was just a better counter to JPers. I don't know what this is. But from what I've seen the best counter is Fade w/ blink (good), Lerk (ok), Skulk w/ leap (ok), and that's it. There really isn't a direct counter to them, so either you boost one of the oks to good, or you intro a new skill or class to deal with it (new class, i know I'm dreaming). Maybe gorge web or something similar so that a gorge doesn't feel helpless. Just a thought.
Or maybe put spikes on top of all hives so they can't just land up there.
Just a thought.
Of course, if you change the gravity to the default of -24, it will feel really weird. This is because the default gravity has always been too strong. It's probably the reason why the jetpack needed a gravity modifier to begin with.
What i mean is that jetpacks fly just like they do now, but the jetpacks fuel/energie gets drained a little bit more everytime the jetpack start (jetpack button is hit).
This way they can fly as long as they do now... but not if they release the jetpack button and then push it again all the time.