What exactly do whips do now?
Imbalanxd
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
So, a few patches ago (around 209/210), whenever I commanded the alien team, I would ask for immediate notification of grenades on the playing field, that way I could quickly prioritise building 4-5 whips in and around the most vulnerable hive room. This prevented the marine team from simply standing in the furthest doorway and lobbing hundreds of grenades onto the hive. I think this system worked pretty well, but perhaps too well, since a good 90% of all grenades were usually repelled.
Lately, whips seem almost entire pointless. I just played a game in which I had quickly taken the hive in drilling on mineshaft. Since the marines had a very clear and long firing line at the hive, I placed between 8 and 10 whips immediately in front of the hive in an attempt to prevent the inevitable grenade onslaught. They didn't stop a single grenade. To give them credit, they were definitely trying their hardest. They were flailing every which way, but the grenades continued to hit their intended targets. What's more, whips typically die in about 2 grenades, maybe 3. That seems like a pretty pathetic investment for 15 res.
I think its a bit of a random system, the deflection of grenades. You never know whether the grenade is going to fly back and deal massive damage to whoever fired it, or if its going to be knocked straight into the cute round face of the nearest gorge. This makes it a difficult thing to balance. What if their role was made more concrete and predictable? I'm thinking instead of whips either deflecting every grenade superman style, or taking one to the face and that being that, what if they were more like absorbers of grenades. Every x amount of seconds, a whip could catch a grenade, and curl up with it, allowing it to explode and absorbing the vast majority of the AOE. The whip would of course be damaged, and after y number of grenades it would die. This would promote strategical placement of whips, as the area wouldn't be completely nullified, and they would need a safe distance from other structures and players in order to effectively diminish the collateral damage. It would also encourage synergy between whips and crags, one absorbing the damage, the other healing it back up.
Lately, whips seem almost entire pointless. I just played a game in which I had quickly taken the hive in drilling on mineshaft. Since the marines had a very clear and long firing line at the hive, I placed between 8 and 10 whips immediately in front of the hive in an attempt to prevent the inevitable grenade onslaught. They didn't stop a single grenade. To give them credit, they were definitely trying their hardest. They were flailing every which way, but the grenades continued to hit their intended targets. What's more, whips typically die in about 2 grenades, maybe 3. That seems like a pretty pathetic investment for 15 res.
I think its a bit of a random system, the deflection of grenades. You never know whether the grenade is going to fly back and deal massive damage to whoever fired it, or if its going to be knocked straight into the cute round face of the nearest gorge. This makes it a difficult thing to balance. What if their role was made more concrete and predictable? I'm thinking instead of whips either deflecting every grenade superman style, or taking one to the face and that being that, what if they were more like absorbers of grenades. Every x amount of seconds, a whip could catch a grenade, and curl up with it, allowing it to explode and absorbing the vast majority of the AOE. The whip would of course be damaged, and after y number of grenades it would die. This would promote strategical placement of whips, as the area wouldn't be completely nullified, and they would need a safe distance from other structures and players in order to effectively diminish the collateral damage. It would also encourage synergy between whips and crags, one absorbing the damage, the other healing it back up.
Comments
Could the deflection rate maybe slow down as server load increases? The rapid placement of 8-10 whips should tell you how far along the game was.
In the current iteration, I find whips are good for building in choke points and to defend shell/veil/spur upgrades from melee attack. It takes 2.5 rifle clips to kill a whip, so it won't stop multiple marines but it might slow down a single marine for a short while.
They no longer magically aim it perfectly back at the shooting marines head.
Basically they knock them away from themselves and friendlies, and if no such option exists, they'll take the collateral and choose the best option they can determined through said weighting system.
But it was a) hard to see it coming back b) not obvious to noobs what was going on c) hard counter
but i think a) can be solved with a simple motion tracking icon on your own nade
b) can be solved by lowering the dmg to self, so you have more of a chance to learn
c) the whips could hit it back only % of the time??
So yea.. i think the current method is inferior, not worth the res, and the problem(s) that lead to this change could have been resolved, imo
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->Hm.. Seems a bit on the side of over-complicating, I just want them to do -something- worth their weight in res or just get lopped out of the game all together. I'm not sure a whole other form of maturation is needed as we barely use the first one as it is.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
that is actually cruzial information, i did not know that. did i miss the anouncement?
Whips are currently res heavy and luck dependent defenses. Adding the recent Mature Whip requirement for whacking, and we have early investments prone to sniping.
Oh..... right....
That's something you might want to let players know somehow :D
<!--quoteo(post=1961171:date=Aug 11 2012, 10:26 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 11 2012, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The grenade throwing ability of the whips was originally an attempt to balance gameplay when the marine mg had a grenade launcher attachment. Since that was removed, and the grenade launcher made a separate weapon, the justification for that particular feature disappeared.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it made it obsolete. The problem has always been that aliens don't have a good counter to grenade spam, which is why whips grenade throwing was implemented. I don't want the direct-to-face knockback returned, but I would like to see whips become a good GL spam counter again. Maybe make it so the whips 'eat' the grenades and take a reduced amount of damage.
This seems like the best option and fits with it only being available to Mature Whips. They could coddle the grenade into their bile ball before detonation. No splash damage. Does away with the marine frustration of unexpectedly being hit by your own grenade, and the cases of the grenade being hit into somewhere that injures the alien team.
Please, this.
I didn't like the whips that could throw grens back around the corner. You fire and start running and they still hit you, that was too powerfull. In my eyes the deflection is not working good. In fact I even got killed a few times by deflected grens :/ So as like always in NS2 there has to be a golden middle. What if the grens will get thrown back to the shooter but with a short delay and a slight inaccuracy? It would be a better defence and still not punish every gl user who has the wits to outrun his own grens? I don't think that would be too good as counter because if 2 or 3 gls attack 1-2 whips or even more, they can't deflect all grens at the same time and still take damage.
But I have to admit, the damage absorbing whip with crag support is also a good idea. But whatever could be changed with the throwing, the whip can always be countered by a lmg. That is good, but leads me to my final bit of input to the discussion. I can upgrade a whip for another 15 res. I like upgraded whips, but I never use them. Those are 30res, almost a hive! But they don't get more HP or armor with the upgrade -> 2 lmg mags still kill it. Shouldn't get an upgraded whip like 50% more armor or hp? Something that makes rines to use 3 mags? This way upgraded whips would also be more resistant against gl hits. But on the other hand, 30 res are 30 res and that would maybe only lead to more res burning, what do you think?
The new grenade launchers, in numbers, simply overwhelm the whips.
Also, the random fling system seems to be far less effective at keeping the whips and what they are protecting alive. There is actually a greater chance that they will fling grenades randomly into nearby structures, instead of back at the marine where typically there are no structures.
Right, then let them destroy grenades sacrificing some of their own health with no splash before they're mature, then with the mature upgrade have them take even less damage from doing so because they encase it within their bileball.
The counter to grenade spam is rushing the marine with the grenade launcher and killing him. Marines with grenade launchers are more or less helpless against alien players, or at least they should be.
maybe GL marines without jetpacks. i shouldn't be able to solo hives with that combo while 3+ aliens are trying to bring me down. commander support just makes the task that much easier. the non-nerfed whip was my only real barrier before.
Charging the marine with the grenade launcher isn't a counter because it costs you more than it costs them, which is pretty much the opposite of what a counter is. For example, a marine is firing grenades into the hive, and obviously has marines covering him from a defended position (any other situation would involve noobs and isn't worth considering). In order to kill that marine, you will probably need to use 3 or 4 skulks, all of whom will almost definitely be killed. 3 or 4 enemy players for one of mine? I would take that deal any day. And then some other marine is just going to pick the GL up and take over anyway.
gorge Web would be a great feature to bring back, it could catch the grenades like a net before they get close to your buildings - but of course this would destroy the web.
<!--quoteo(post=1961138:date=Aug 12 2012, 02:11 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 12 2012, 02:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->when a problem comes along you must whip it!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WHIP IT GOOD!
Jetpacks are a problem, the GL isn't. Some of the contributors to JPs being too powerful:
1. Too cheap.
2. Skulk leap can't be chained (can't leap again while in the middle of a leap).
3. Cumbersome Fade blink model.
4. Map design (many hive rooms are simply too big and too open -- almost impossible to trap JPs). Generator hive on docking is particularly awful, but all the official maps have one or more hive rooms that haven't been designed properly.
They are pretty weak for the high cost and die in gren spam fast, as to normal fire.
The best would be to raise the jetpack cost to 15-20 res and even more important to allow only the rifle and shotgun to be used with a jetpack.