There's a lot of balance issues we need to talk about.
Copain
Join Date: 2012-08-04 Member: 154776Members
Join Date: 2012-08-04 Member: 154776Members
There's a handful of issues I'd like to mention that I'm seeing as a major issue with the marine side of the game.
Marines have to buy their gear. I've gone entire matches where we've started with the advantage and I won't buy anything until Jetpacks. I find myself quickly running out of resources and losing my ability to fight even a Skulk. The issue here is that unless a marine team dedicates itself to running around killing any spawned bases of the Aliens or else the evolutions they get for free (Speed and regen for instance) will be the death of any marine running around in gear he doesn't spend money on. This wouldn't be an issue if this was limited to Skulks or something, but with the other Aliens being allowed to get it, this means one can just fly around a Marine base dropping poison clouds without death do to his speed and regeneration keeping him alive. The same would go for fades running around killing people and being able to get out at the first sign of danger and instantly heal. For the Marine team to do so, the commander must spend team resources on an armory or Health pack. Marines have no natural regen and to have to significantly cripple their getting around power by placing an armory or running back to base to get an armory. Not to mention there's no way to even heal Marine shields (Which they rely on since there is no real defense upgrade for them like the Alien's armor upgrades) without them relying on someone else to spend their resources on it (or the commander, even then someone else has to do it).
Another major issue lies with the Marine's weapons just not having the killing power needed. The Assault Rifle and Shotgun do their jobs well, but the Flamethrower, while nice for an AOE damage, is probably the slowest killing weapon in the game. You're unable to kill a Fade or a Lerk with it because they'll quickly dart out of range if health becomes an issue. Even with a Jetpack you don't stand a chance at catching them due to limited energy, and while you might avoid death from a Fade (Might, a good fade can get around the air) they're not going to let you kill them. You might suggest "lets use the Grenade launcher then! It deals great damage!" And that's true, the Grenade launcher deals great damage, but it's a slow projectile that is slow to explode unless you hit something with it. And if you're within a good amount of range of it, you're going to kill yourself. I had my back to a wall and killed myself with a grenade launcher in three hits without even knowing I was hurting myself because I was so far away from the hive! I have no indication of how far the range of the grenade's explosion radius because there's no indicator at all, it's just something I have to know.
<i><b>Now that's not to say the Marine's can't win a match</b></i><u></u>, Marines are able to win by mass expanding early and teching fast. The issue here is that the marines have to help build where the Aliens do no such thing. This leaves the Aliens free to harass, or in the case of the Gorge, literally render an area impassible for the Marines. One can camp in an area by setting up walls and three hydras which will kill from a range with <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->No visual indicator<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> as to who they're hitting or how they're hitting. There's no way for a marine to take down a Hydra, <u><b>a free deployable</b></u> if the Gorge is there healing it, the Assault rifle simply cannot deal enough damage, and if the marine gets to close for a good shot, he's going to be shot at anyway and either die or have to run away to heal.
Onos? The Onos is pretty balanced itself. It hits hard, is a big target, has a lot of HP and armor but isn't unkillable and doesn't have anything rendering it impossible to kill. I'd honestly say the Alien's strongest unit is the most balanced one and in the event teams are even, the Onos won't be able to insta gib the Marines. The only real issue goes back to the free evolutions they get (Regen, more armor, speed, ect) that make them very frustrating to kill.
Lately it seems that the only time Marines win, it's a steam roll with more skilled players. I've seen plenty of steam rolls in both ways and, like I said, Marines can win, there's no question, it's just when they do it seems like a vastly out skilled Scenario.
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->TL;DR<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> A very simple way to balance out Marines would be to either remove the passive (un upgraded) heal the Aliens get along with the free buildings they get, or allow the Marines to have the same features (IE free mines or free mini turrets). As it stands the Marines lack flexibility in comparison to their enemy and it makes for a far less enjoyable match.
Marines have to buy their gear. I've gone entire matches where we've started with the advantage and I won't buy anything until Jetpacks. I find myself quickly running out of resources and losing my ability to fight even a Skulk. The issue here is that unless a marine team dedicates itself to running around killing any spawned bases of the Aliens or else the evolutions they get for free (Speed and regen for instance) will be the death of any marine running around in gear he doesn't spend money on. This wouldn't be an issue if this was limited to Skulks or something, but with the other Aliens being allowed to get it, this means one can just fly around a Marine base dropping poison clouds without death do to his speed and regeneration keeping him alive. The same would go for fades running around killing people and being able to get out at the first sign of danger and instantly heal. For the Marine team to do so, the commander must spend team resources on an armory or Health pack. Marines have no natural regen and to have to significantly cripple their getting around power by placing an armory or running back to base to get an armory. Not to mention there's no way to even heal Marine shields (Which they rely on since there is no real defense upgrade for them like the Alien's armor upgrades) without them relying on someone else to spend their resources on it (or the commander, even then someone else has to do it).
Another major issue lies with the Marine's weapons just not having the killing power needed. The Assault Rifle and Shotgun do their jobs well, but the Flamethrower, while nice for an AOE damage, is probably the slowest killing weapon in the game. You're unable to kill a Fade or a Lerk with it because they'll quickly dart out of range if health becomes an issue. Even with a Jetpack you don't stand a chance at catching them due to limited energy, and while you might avoid death from a Fade (Might, a good fade can get around the air) they're not going to let you kill them. You might suggest "lets use the Grenade launcher then! It deals great damage!" And that's true, the Grenade launcher deals great damage, but it's a slow projectile that is slow to explode unless you hit something with it. And if you're within a good amount of range of it, you're going to kill yourself. I had my back to a wall and killed myself with a grenade launcher in three hits without even knowing I was hurting myself because I was so far away from the hive! I have no indication of how far the range of the grenade's explosion radius because there's no indicator at all, it's just something I have to know.
<i><b>Now that's not to say the Marine's can't win a match</b></i><u></u>, Marines are able to win by mass expanding early and teching fast. The issue here is that the marines have to help build where the Aliens do no such thing. This leaves the Aliens free to harass, or in the case of the Gorge, literally render an area impassible for the Marines. One can camp in an area by setting up walls and three hydras which will kill from a range with <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->No visual indicator<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> as to who they're hitting or how they're hitting. There's no way for a marine to take down a Hydra, <u><b>a free deployable</b></u> if the Gorge is there healing it, the Assault rifle simply cannot deal enough damage, and if the marine gets to close for a good shot, he's going to be shot at anyway and either die or have to run away to heal.
Onos? The Onos is pretty balanced itself. It hits hard, is a big target, has a lot of HP and armor but isn't unkillable and doesn't have anything rendering it impossible to kill. I'd honestly say the Alien's strongest unit is the most balanced one and in the event teams are even, the Onos won't be able to insta gib the Marines. The only real issue goes back to the free evolutions they get (Regen, more armor, speed, ect) that make them very frustrating to kill.
Lately it seems that the only time Marines win, it's a steam roll with more skilled players. I've seen plenty of steam rolls in both ways and, like I said, Marines can win, there's no question, it's just when they do it seems like a vastly out skilled Scenario.
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->TL;DR<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> A very simple way to balance out Marines would be to either remove the passive (un upgraded) heal the Aliens get along with the free buildings they get, or allow the Marines to have the same features (IE free mines or free mini turrets). As it stands the Marines lack flexibility in comparison to their enemy and it makes for a far less enjoyable match.
Comments
It basically just sounds like you want the sides to be mostly the same. If one side gets something for free, the other side should get the same thing for free, or they should both have to pay. If one side can heal up for free outside their base, but the other side can't, then we should take away the healing. And so on. That's not the best way to balance Natural Selection.
You just need to play more. These are not the issues of balance atm.
Recently, the Gorge heal was kinda buffed to absurd levels making Hydras and other structures kinda impossible to kill. But if you flank him and shoot the Gorge.. you get the picture.
Flamethrower is not meant to be a killing weapon, it's a support weapon that does several things really well: Prevents energy regeneration, absolutely decimates cysts, and does great damage to structures.
Other than that, just play some more games. You'll see in time, these things are mostly fine.
The balance issues are not really in these areas.
Sorry to say but he's right- you just bought the game recently going by your forum join date... play for a few weeks and see if your opinions change on what's balanced and what's not =P
I agree that the sides shouldn't be even all the way, but surely you can't find it balanced for one team to have flight, teleportation, deployables, regenerating HP, armor, free upgrades, and unlimited ammo and find no flaw in the team that very much has the exact opposite. Spend money to heal, spend money each time for Limited and slower flight, costly deployables that nobody uses much (mines), and be far more fragile.
Not to mention they have to help build and the Aliens have free build.
The only advantage a Marine has is his stronger range--- early on anyway. Becomes moot when you have Fades.
And you can't honestly tell me Fades are balanced when there's a multi page topic of everyone calling them OP.
Forum join date isn't a good statistic. I preordered way back when it was "Target Practice" Alpha. I didn't sign up for the forums until a month or so ago, when I deemed the game a playable state and started actually playing. :) Much love. Just sayin', forum date =/= meaningful.
<b>Not to mention there's no way to even heal Marine shields </b>
Marine can weld eachother to repair shields. Armories used to do the same, but it has been removed recently. While that nerf can be and is a topic for balance discussions, shields <i>can</i> be repaired.
<b>(Which they rely on since there is no real defense upgrade for them like the Alien's armor upgrades) without them relying on someone else to spend their resources on it (or the commander, even then someone else has to do it).</b>
Armor upgrades for the marines are available through the Arms Lab. While this requires the marine comm to research at the cost of team res, The alien's Carapace requires alien comm to research, after upgrading a hive to a defensive role (craig), then dropping a shell to be finally upgraded to Carapace. Whats more, unline the Arms Lab, which takes care of all three weapons upgrades and all three armor upgrades, each of the 8 alien upgrades require their own structure, and to get all 8 three hives must be fully built.
<b>but the Flamethrower, while nice for an AOE damage, is probably the slowest killing weapon in the game. You're unable to kill a Fade or a Lerk with it because they'll quickly dart out of range if health becomes an issue. </b>
What I'm going to say here could be argued, but the flamethrower is moer of a utility weapon. It doesn't have heavy damage, but it kills cysts quickly, disables whips' grenade reflection, and <i>greatly</i> lowers alien energy regen. It works very well alongside another marine with a shotgun or grenade launcher.
<b>There's no way for a marine to take down a Hydra, <u>a free deployable</u> if the Gorge is there healing it, the Assault rifle simply cannot deal enough damage, and if the marine gets to close for a good shot, he's going to be shot at anyway and either die or have to run away to heal.</b>
The alien player here has paid 10 res for the gorge. The marine has paid nothing. Keep this in mind when thinking about balance. If you add a second marine into the mix, the results usually shift into the the opposite favor.
<b>The only real issue goes back to the free evolutions they get (Regen, more armor, speed, ect) that make them very frustrating to kill.</b>
Addressing this here; Marines get free Weapons and Armor upgrades that are researched. They don't even have to do anything. Automatic, right off the IP. Aliens, along with the extra long respawn timer, have to spend a few extra seconds getting those abilities when they die. Any they can only get as many as they have hives.
<b>Lately it seems that the only time Marines win, it's a steam roll with more skilled players. I've seen plenty of steam rolls in both ways and, like I said, Marines can win, there's no question, it's just when they do it seems like a vastly out skilled Scenario.</b>
Aliens <i>are</i> overpowered in this build for other reasons, that much is true.
Give the game some more play time. Most of the things you mentioned really aren't issues.
I am going to address you point by point, hopefully I can persuade you of balance. I admit the balance isn't perfect, but the marines are a lot less screwed than you make them out to be.
<!--quoteo(post=1957287:date=Aug 5 2012, 08:28 AM:name=Copain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Copain @ Aug 5 2012, 08:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines have to buy their gear. I've gone entire matches where we've started with the advantage and I won't buy anything until Jetpacks. I find myself quickly running out of resources and losing my ability to fight even a Skulk. The issue here is that unless a marine team dedicates itself to running around killing any spawned bases of the Aliens or else the evolutions they get for free (Speed and regen for instance) will be the death of any marine running around in gear he doesn't spend money on. This wouldn't be an issue if this was limited to Skulks or something, but with the other Aliens being allowed to get it, this means one can just fly around a Marine base dropping poison clouds without death do to his speed and regeneration keeping him alive. The same would go for fades running around killing people and being able to get out at the first sign of danger and instantly heal. For the Marine team to do so, the commander must spend team resources on an armory or Health pack. Marines have no natural regen and to have to significantly cripple their getting around power by placing an armory or running back to base to get an armory. Not to mention there's no way to even heal Marine shields (Which they rely on since there is no real defense upgrade for them like the Alien's armor upgrades) without them relying on someone else to spend their resources on it (or the commander, even then someone else has to do it).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The marines DO get stuff for free (only the commander pays for it, and only once) in the form of weapon upgrades. Skulks are easy to fight early game, and even when they evolve carapace they are no match for lvl 1 guns and lvl 1 armor. The aim of the game is teamwork. If you wander off, expect to get ambushed and killed. What sometimes happens, and what I think may have happened to you, is a noob goes commander and doesnt research the core weapon or armor upgrades because they are "more boring" than shotguns or heavy weapons. Shotguns, flaethrowers and GLs are all nice weapons, but they are not required to play the game (although the shotgun is really good against certain aliens). The shotgun is relatively cheap, and if someone in your area really needs one (Lerk attack) then ask the commander, he should easily oblige. While medkits, ammo etc come out of the team resource pool, weapons come directly out of the commanders personal resource pool - which should be very large mid-late game because, unless you have had a change of commander or something, he hasn't bought anything. My tactic is to spend the first 5-10 minutes buying nothing other than the occasional welder. After that point, I can afford whatever I want whenever I want, as long as I dont die every 2 seconds. I see people buying welder and shotgun every single life, and then running in and dying to the first skulk they see. No wonder they have no resources - they keep draining them. Think of it as saving up to buy a new TV.
The aliens IMO actually have far more risk when it comes to resources than marines, not the other way around. The reason is because a good marine team will decimate skulks, and so higher upgrades are necessary. While aliens have to spend money every single time they die to become something more useful late game, marines can do reasonably well with default gear if they have weapons and armor at level 3 and a compotent commander. There have been many times where I have ended up with a flood of resources as a marine because the default assault rifle gets the job done reasonably well, especially in a group situation.
<!--quoteo(post=1957287:date=Aug 5 2012, 08:28 AM:name=Copain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Copain @ Aug 5 2012, 08:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another major issue lies with the Marine's weapons just not having the killing power needed. The Assault Rifle and Shotgun do their jobs well, but the Flamethrower, while nice for an AOE damage, is probably the slowest killing weapon in the game. You're unable to kill a Fade or a Lerk with it because they'll quickly dart out of range if health becomes an issue. Even with a Jetpack you don't stand a chance at catching them due to limited energy, and while you might avoid death from a Fade (Might, a good fade can get around the air) they're not going to let you kill them. You might suggest "lets use the Grenade launcher then! It deals great damage!" And that's true, the Grenade launcher deals great damage, but it's a slow projectile that is slow to explode unless you hit something with it. And if you're within a good amount of range of it, you're going to kill yourself. I had my back to a wall and killed myself with a grenade launcher in three hits without even knowing I was hurting myself because I was so far away from the hive! I have no indication of how far the range of the grenade's explosion radius because there's no indicator at all, it's just something I have to know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The flamethrower, at least in my view, has always been more of a utility weapon. Still good to have, but not for direct combat. It is AMAZING at burning down hives, can effectively nullify whips, and does a decent job against lerks. Get a direct hit with the grenade launcher. The only point here I agree with is that the grenades are hard to see. I think they need to be a different color, to stand out in the environment a little more.
<!--quoteo(post=1957287:date=Aug 5 2012, 08:28 AM:name=Copain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Copain @ Aug 5 2012, 08:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i><b>Now that's not to say the Marine's can't win a match</b></i><u></u>, Marines are able to win by mass expanding early and teching fast. The issue here is that the marines have to help build where the Aliens do no such thing. This leaves the Aliens free to harass, or in the case of the Gorge, literally render an area impassible for the Marines. One can camp in an area by setting up walls and three hydras which will kill from a range with <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->No visual indicator<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> as to who they're hitting or how they're hitting. There's no way for a marine to take down a Hydra, <u><b>a free deployable</b></u> if the Gorge is there healing it, the Assault rifle simply cannot deal enough damage, and if the marine gets to close for a good shot, he's going to be shot at anyway and either die or have to run away to heal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The marines have to build yes, but they can instantly build anywhere on the map without needing to spread infestation. Go cyst hunting, and watch the alien commander rage and mash F4. Building is usually quick, and with a little teamwork, you can have one guy getting a secondary base up extremely fast in relative safety if he is covered. The aliens can do no such thing. The most they can do is place down a hive, which take forever to build.
As for hydras, they have low HP and can be easily outranged. Clogs are easy to take down they just delay the marines for a short time. The main thing that makes Hydras strong is the gorge hiding behind them. Take him out, and the barricade will go down shortly after. There has only been 1 time when hydras were placed so well that we couldnt get past them for 4 or 5 minutes. The commander got 2 ARCs and munched through them like they were made of paper. We went on to take the point and eventually win the match. Grenade launchers work well too.
<!--quoteo(post=1957287:date=Aug 5 2012, 08:28 AM:name=Copain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Copain @ Aug 5 2012, 08:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onos? The Onos is pretty balanced itself. It hits hard, is a big target, has a lot of HP and armor but isn't unkillable and doesn't have anything rendering it impossible to kill. I'd honestly say the Alien's strongest unit is the most balanced one and in the event teams are even, the Onos won't be able to insta gib the Marines. The only real issue goes back to the free evolutions they get (Regen, more armor, speed, ect) that make them very frustrating to kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true. Keep in mind that the Onos feels like he is made of paper if you get him into an open area and have 3-4 marines constantly unloading on him.
<!--quoteo(post=1957287:date=Aug 5 2012, 08:28 AM:name=Copain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Copain @ Aug 5 2012, 08:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lately it seems that the only time Marines win, it's a steam roll with more skilled players. I've seen plenty of steam rolls in both ways and, like I said, Marines can win, there's no question, it's just when they do it seems like a vastly out skilled Scenario.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have won plenty times as a marine commander after we had lost all but 1 or 2 rooms within the map. The marines have the advantage when pushing back, because remember if you get them down to less than 3 hives, they are significantly weaker. Below 2, they are free kills. On the flip side, when the marines lose their second command center they only lose jetpacks, which is a setback sure, but it is nowhere near as game breaking as it is for aliens. The aliens dependence on hives means it is way too easy for the marines to out play them. The main reason the marines always lose is because most of the newer players play them first because they are easier to play and simpler. We have also had an influx of newer players because of TotalBiscuit's NS2 videos. Giveit a week or 2 and the marines will start winning again
All that said, regeneration does need a small nerf. It activates a little too soon IMO. Maybe lengthen the time it takes to activate by another 4-5 seconds.
<b>Not to mention there's no way to even heal Marine shields </b>
Marine can weld eachother to repair shields. Armories used to do the same, but it has been removed recently. While that nerf can be and is a topic for balance discussions, shields <i>can</i> be repaired.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You need to read the whole thing before you post. I said without someone doing it for them by spending resources. So your point means nothing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>(Which they rely on since there is no real defense upgrade for them like the Alien's armor upgrades) without them relying on someone else to spend their resources on it (or the commander, even then someone else has to do it).</b>
Armor upgrades for the marines are available through the Arms Lab. While this requires the marine comm to research at the cost of team res, The alien's Carapace requires alien comm to research, after upgrading a hive to a defensive role (craig), then dropping a shell to be finally upgraded to Carapace. Whats more, unline the Arms Lab, which takes care of all three weapons upgrades and all three armor upgrades, each of the 8 alien upgrades require their own structure, and to get all 8 three hives must be fully built.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By defense I mean a repairable armor that's going to heal naturally. Not a point booster that one guy alone can never get back.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>but the Flamethrower, while nice for an AOE damage, is probably the slowest killing weapon in the game. You're unable to kill a Fade or a Lerk with it because they'll quickly dart out of range if health becomes an issue. </b>
What I'm going to say here could be argued, but the flamethrower is moer of a utility weapon. It doesn't have heavy damage, but it kills cysts quickly, disables whips' grenade reflection, and <i>greatly</i> lowers alien energy regen. It works very well alongside another marine with a shotgun or grenade launcher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You shouldn't waste ammo on a Cysts unless you're desperate. Taking out a Hive will kill them and your Axe/welder/pistol can do that anyway.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>There's no way for a marine to take down a Hydra, <u>a free deployable</u> if the Gorge is there healing it, the Assault rifle simply cannot deal enough damage, and if the marine gets to close for a good shot, he's going to be shot at anyway and either die or have to run away to heal.</b>
The alien player here has paid 10 res for the gorge. The marine has paid nothing. Keep this in mind when thinking about balance. If you add a second marine into the mix, the results usually shift into the the opposite favor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering I've been on the Marine side of three marines being held off by one Gorge and on the Alien side of holding off three marines as one George.... no. As for resources? Okay, lets say the Marine bought a Welder. Now he's a George with limited ammo and less area lock down power.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>The only real issue goes back to the free evolutions they get (Regen, more armor, speed, ect) that make them very frustrating to kill.</b>
Addressing this here; Marines get free Weapons and Armor upgrades that are researched. They don't even have to do anything. Automatic, right off the IP. Aliens, along with the extra long respawn timer, have to spend a few extra seconds getting those abilities when they die. Any they can only get as many as they have hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're arguing that weapon damage and an HP boost (It's not really armor if you don't get any damage reduction or can be restored to protecting powers easily IMO) is equal to a regenerating armor buff, a regeneration bonus to HP (and armor if you think about it), the ability to go invisible, moving faster, and literally cheating death. I just got out of a game as a Fade where I never died after going fade even after going in the middle of a bunch of marines and their main base because of Feign death and fading in and out.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Give the game some more play time. Most of the things you mentioned really aren't issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet it's something I see every other game. I just don't accept the lame argument of "Oh well once you become a really good player that can murder everyone else, it's balanced." Lets pretend I am new since you seem stuck on that. What's this have to do with balance? Is me becoming a better player going to fix the balance?
No, it isn't. And if you think it is, you're dim witted. Being better than others doesn't make one side better. Having to play harder to do as well as another is unbalanced and to claim that becoming a better player makes it balanced is stupid.
You're right, I misread that last sentance and grouped 'help of others' with 'armor research', not 'armor repair'. So, yeah. Got me there.
<!--quoteo(post=1957419:date=Aug 4 2012, 07:55 PM:name=Copain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Copain @ Aug 4 2012, 07:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And yet it's something I see every other game. I just don't accept the lame argument of "Oh well once you become a really good player that can murder everyone else, it's balanced." Lets pretend I am new since you seem stuck on that. What's this have to do with balance? Is me becoming a better player going to fix the balance?
No, it isn't. And if you think it is, you're dim witted. Being better than others doesn't make one side better. Having to play harder to do as well as another is unbalanced and to claim that becoming a better player makes it balanced is stupid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I supposed I might have jumped the gun when I suggested you play more. Do understand that while I have heard some of these arguments before, its exclusivly been players still in their first days of play. But while that alone does not invalidate the conserns, I do not agree with your points, and asside from that last point (and the first one caused by my inability to read), I stick by everything I said. I'm not going to counter the rest of the ponts here, because it will descend into a debate of anecdotal evidence (I've personally, alone or with another marine, managed to push through gorge forts by taking down the clogs to make a door and sprinting past the hydras. Is the only possible explanation due to every one of those gorge players being bad?)
I will agree with Feign Death being overpowered. Because, yes, it is very overpowered. But all that requires is a rework of the Feign Death upgrade, not the entire tech tree as a whole.
I supposed I might have jumped the gun when I suggested you play more. Do understand that while I have heard some of these arguments before, its exclusivly been players still in their first days of play. But while that alone does not invalidate the conserns, I do not agree with your points, and asside from that last point (and the first one caused by my inability to read), I stick by everything I said. I'm not going to counter the rest of the ponts here, because it will descend into a debate of anecdotal evidence (I've personally, alone or with another marine, managed to push through gorge forts by taking down the clogs to make a door and sprinting past the hydras. Is the only possible explanation due to every one of those gorge players being bad?)
I will agree with Feign Death being overpowered. Because, yes, it is very overpowered. But all that requires is a rework of the Feign Death upgrade, not the entire tech tree as a whole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I appreciate that you can admit a mistake, most people would try to cover it up, it shows that you're a good person.
As for the Hydra thing, I've tried that a few times and died. Though it was just me dashing forward and we were clean Marines most of the times I did it (IE no armor upgrades) which resulted in a death.
Anyway, I understand the whole experience and play better thing, but the problem with that is the large differences in the skill floors. I taught a Gorge how to set up a wall (it was like his third game) my last game and he held it down when the enemy base was literally down the hall. Not many people attacked him, granted, but it was multiple people at the least. Once myself and a few others got Fades with Feign death/Armor/Regen we basically just rolled them, none of us ever died at that point and we just pushed them back tell they lost.
Even as a first time Fader I was basically unable to be killed with those combos. Since I've gotten better I'm able to take out Marines and make life easier for my team by holding off multiple people as a Fade. But the same isn't said for a Marine with a Grenade Launcher, jetpack, and fully upgraded gear. He'd kill himself while getting used to the Launcher, the Flamethrower isn't really a killing tool (It deals AOE damage, but the damage isn't that high, you won't win 1v1 easily). The Aliens just have a far easier time doing well which in itself should be a red flag.
@TychoCelchuuu, I didn't see your post before, but by your logic just about every Marine who plays is bad. Because I've rarely seen a Lerk focused on flying around die. They move fast and with Regen/Armor they become a difficult target to kill.
Also you don't need to get a Gouge to heal you with the Regen ability that most people get first or second, sometimes even on one base. So while it might take longer than an armory, you can be healed anywhere. Your examples (Armory, Commander) not only do not heal the armor of the player like the Alien's do automatically, but they also cost resources. Something the Alien doesn't need to spend each time he needs to heal.
Also 2 marines focus down a hydra in seconds, but one cant even damage it. Also you seem to have forgotten that each branch of upgrades requires a separate hive, and aliens are limited to getting 1 upgrade per hive and each hive costs 40tres to buy and 20 tres to dedicate to a path.
<!--quoteo(post=1957419:date=Aug 4 2012, 10:55 PM:name=Copain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Copain @ Aug 4 2012, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You shouldn't waste ammo on a Cysts unless you're desperate. Taking out a Hive will kill them and your Axe/welder/pistol can do that anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The ability to rape cysts is the smallest of the flamers roles (all of which the man mentioned) and even in that role it is vastly superior to axe, welder and pistol. For one the fact that it can damage cysts indirectly (if you hit the infestation the cyst it came from will take full dmg from your flamer) and that it kills them in less than a second allows you to decyst fortifications (problematic for whips and crags) clear shaded hallways without having to waste scans and in general be a pain in the posterior by making the alien comm waste time recysting to places (a somewhat lengthy and expensive process).
Also there is the fact that aliens are somewhat easier to play both in terms of gameplay and teamwork, at least once you know what is what.
One last thing, this game is ostensibly balanced around team scenarios (especially for the marines). The fact that you keep bringing up 1v1s as examples does not say anything favorable about your understanding of this games core principles. Frankly I have to agree with the earlier posters, play some more and give the surge of new players that showed up after TB a chance to do so as well. Then talk about balance.
I get that the game is based on team work for major fights and the like, but it shouldn't be balanced in such a way that a team that consist of an even number of people will weigh heavily in favor of one team if both use similar tactics.
A Marine should not lose, by design, against a skulk and be at an inherent disadvantage (as stated by the developers in a TB video if you watch them).
Regardless, Teamwork won't mean jack if you let the Aliens get up two or three Hives late game. I had a game yesterday where I had to command and I kept having my team purge hives and secure spots for my own to prevent them from getting a bunch of Fade tech for Feign death (Since they went Crag first, as normal) and the moment they got that second Hive up (twentyish minutes in) we just auto lost the game do to Fades murdering my Marines and the Marines having to defend from Lerks (because the 70 Resources I spent on turrets specifically put in an open area to hopefully deal with one fade or one Lerk wouldn't even fire at things in their LoS). I even tried building eight Arcs and arming my Guys with Flame throwers and Grenade launchers and they just got butchered and even though my Arcs took out a single Hive, they were dead after that (Though that was partly do to the trash path finding AI that had them get stuck on cliffs or just bunch up and stand still until I individually moved them).
As for the whole Hit reg issue, you might have a point. But I'm worried it won't be fixed considering how long this game has been in the beta process without that (or the graphics issue where people who run the game smoothly will just freeze from loading things they get close to). As it stands, it's very difficult to deal with Lerks do to your hits not counting or various other reasons (Regen/Armor for instance).
Marines have to buy their gear. I've gone entire matches where we've started with the advantage and I won't buy anything until Jetpacks. I find myself quickly running out of resources and losing my ability to fight even a Skulk. The issue here is that unless a marine team dedicates itself to running around killing any spawned bases of the Aliens or else the evolutions they get for free (Speed and regen for instance) will be the death of any marine running around in gear he doesn't spend money on. This wouldn't be an issue if this was limited to Skulks or something, but with the other Aliens being allowed to get it, this means one can just fly around a Marine base dropping poison clouds without death do to his speed and regeneration keeping him alive. The same would go for fades running around killing people and being able to get out at the first sign of danger and instantly heal. For the Marine team to do so, the commander must spend team resources on an armory or Health pack. Marines have no natural regen and to have to significantly cripple their getting around power by placing an armory or running back to base to get an armory. Not to mention there's no way to even heal Marine shields (Which they rely on since there is no real defense upgrade for them like the Alien's armor upgrades) without them relying on someone else to spend their resources on it (or the commander, even then someone else has to do it).
Another major issue lies with the Marine's weapons just not having the killing power needed. The Assault Rifle and Shotgun do their jobs well, but the Flamethrower, while nice for an AOE damage, is probably the slowest killing weapon in the game. You're unable to kill a Fade or a Lerk with it because they'll quickly dart out of range if health becomes an issue. Even with a Jetpack you don't stand a chance at catching them due to limited energy, and while you might avoid death from a Fade (Might, a good fade can get around the air) they're not going to let you kill them. You might suggest "lets use the Grenade launcher then! It deals great damage!" And that's true, the Grenade launcher deals great damage, but it's a slow projectile that is slow to explode unless you hit something with it. And if you're within a good amount of range of it, you're going to kill yourself. I had my back to a wall and killed myself with a grenade launcher in three hits without even knowing I was hurting myself because I was so far away from the hive! I have no indication of how far the range of the grenade's explosion radius because there's no indicator at all, it's just something I have to know.
<i><b>Now that's not to say the Marine's can't win a match</b></i><u></u>, Marines are able to win by mass expanding early and teching fast. The issue here is that the marines have to help build where the Aliens do no such thing. This leaves the Aliens free to harass, or in the case of the Gorge, literally render an area impassible for the Marines. One can camp in an area by setting up walls and three hydras which will kill from a range with <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->No visual indicator<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> as to who they're hitting or how they're hitting. There's no way for a marine to take down a Hydra, <u><b>a free deployable</b></u> if the Gorge is there healing it, the Assault rifle simply cannot deal enough damage, and if the marine gets to close for a good shot, he's going to be shot at anyway and either die or have to run away to heal.
Onos? The Onos is pretty balanced itself. It hits hard, is a big target, has a lot of HP and armor but isn't unkillable and doesn't have anything rendering it impossible to kill. I'd honestly say the Alien's strongest unit is the most balanced one and in the event teams are even, the Onos won't be able to insta gib the Marines. The only real issue goes back to the free evolutions they get (Regen, more armor, speed, ect) that make them very frustrating to kill.
Lately it seems that the only time Marines win, it's a steam roll with more skilled players. I've seen plenty of steam rolls in both ways and, like I said, Marines can win, there's no question, it's just when they do it seems like a vastly out skilled Scenario.
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->TL;DR<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> A very simple way to balance out Marines would be to either remove the passive (un upgraded) heal the Aliens get along with the free buildings they get, or allow the Marines to have the same features (IE free mines or free mini turrets). As it stands the Marines lack flexibility in comparison to their enemy and it makes for a far less enjoyable match.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First reaction: WOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!
Answers:
- Play more to know more about the complexity of the game.
- This is not CoD man! Get a bit of strategy in your play: buy a sg when it is needed, upgrade to phase gates when is needed, choose the good options when it is needed! If you don't use your upgrades and weapons to take territory and resnodes to get more res for the team: YES you waste your res and will be out of pres quickly. Marine side is built around team-play and is very tactical! If you can't succeed in playing like this, we can't do much for you.
- For the "weapons not having enough power", have you ever played a skulk against a w3 marine? You feel that it's deadly and you may not kill it alone!
- GL: need to be covered by sg and rifles. AS SIMPLE AS THAT!
- Flamer: against cysts, onos, lerks, skulks, hydras. Usually needs to be covered by other people if no jetpack. Example of the "uselessness" of the FT: you can easily kill alone an onos... It deals enough damage to kill it. Of course, if you have w0, a0 and a flamer alone, don't expect to do anything and be useful...
- I'm not sure if this sentence is meant to be in disagreement to anything in the game: <b>"Marines are able to win by mass expanding early and teching fast"</b>. If you don't do so you deserve to lose :) AS SIMPLE AS THAT AGAIN!
- <b>"This leaves the Aliens free to harass, or in the case of the Gorge, literally render an area impassible for the Marines. One can camp in an area by setting up walls and three hydras which will kill from a range with <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->No visual indicator<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> as to who they're hitting or how they're hitting. There's no way for a marine to take down a Hydra, <u>[b]a free deployable</b></u> if the Gorge is there healing it, the Assault rifle simply cannot deal enough damage, and if the marine gets to close for a good shot, he's going to be shot at anyway and either die or have to run away to heal."[/b]
HURRAY! With a bit of teamwork you can take down a gorge: rush it with 4 people or go around and kill it, then take down his defense. OR EVEN BETTER: get a GL!
- <b>"The only real issue goes back to the free evolutions they get (Regen, more armor, speed, ect) that make them very frustrating to kill."</b> before blaming the "free" evolutions of the aliens look at it carefully: you need to get a hive: 40tres, evolve the hive: 20tres, get a tech-building: 10/15tres (i don't remember), evolve the tech-structure into the evolution: 10-15tres. Guess what? It's enough and you can compare it to the abilities of the marines: weapons and armor upgrades. Then you will tell me about the Gl, shotgun, flamethrower upgrade: How much cost the leap, the spikes, the blink, the stomp, etc? 20 minimum. As aliens you have to pay a lot of tres to get upgrades and lifeforms good enough against upgraded marines.
- <b>"A very simple way to balance out Marines would be to either remove the passive (un upgraded) heal the Aliens get along with the free buildings they get, or allow the Marines to have the same features (IE free mines or free mini turrets). As it stands the Marines lack flexibility in comparison to their enemy and it makes for a far less enjoyable match."</b>
WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOOOOOOW! Just not as simple as that and i completely disagree with that. Why? :
First point: passive healing removal? how can aliens heal on the field? with crags? but if they have a shade hive? what do marines have? medpacks anywhere on the map. This will destroy the gameplay and the survivability of aliens?
Second point: removal of regen? Figure out why? have you ever played alien?!?!?!
Third point: aliens free buildings? (ie: clogs and hydras), there ais a hard cap of 3 hydras and 10 clogs and they die when the player doesn't re-evolve in gorge. Thats intuitive (this is not a debate on paying hydras ^^)
Fourth point: Give marines free items? HAHAHA why not getting everything free and shot flowers to each other! whoa! PEACE AND LOVE BROTHERS! This is a res based gameplay: you pay for the gorge and for its abilities and inconvenient.
To sum it up: get more experience before throwing ideas like this... Especially with such poor solutions.
Righto buddy. Each time a Marine spawns he has to buy a new Jetpack. That cost Team resources and Player resources. Each time an Alien respawns it cost him nothing and only cost some team resources. And yes, some. Because you can get a Crag hive and healing/regen with only one Hive.
Resources must be spent on a Marine late game to match that of a Skulk with a bunch of evolutions and leap due to how much more that benefits them.
Also your other points are jokes. "Four people need to take out one man's free buildings!" are you joking right now? What do you think the three Skulks that you're not accounting for are going to do? Yeah if they're any good you've just lost your Infantry portals. But don't worry, you took out something that cost zero resources. Or (if you're lucky) maybe ten!.
Team play means nothing when there's units specifically designed to punish team players. Lerk's AOE, Ono's Stomp and basic attacks, Fades who just break everything. Hell you can count Skulks backdooring your entire base as that to! HEY GAIZ, WE KILLED A WHIP WHILE WORKING AS A TEAM! That's great, you just lost your Proto lab and have no ability to spawn anymore. You go!
Your argument is a simple "You have to become a better player than other people to be able to beat them on even terms!" and thus a really moronic one that has no place in actual discussion.
I'm wondering if you think the Fade is perfectly balanced as well.
EDIT: HAH! I just read that you said to use flamethrower against Lerks and Skulks. Are you sure you know how to play this game? Your Assault rifle and Shotgun would vastly out Damage those for cheaper. The only thing the Flamethrower would do is ward them off, which you don't want to do with a Lerk who's just going to fly to one of your empty base areas and kill it then fly someplace else when you try to shoot him again with your slow damage weapon.
For aliens and marines, if you died and bought evolutions/Jp+etc. then it is too bad for you. What do you want? A candy when you die?
You don't understand the idea i want to explain: this is a TEAMPLAY game! If you can't gather your team to strikes the defense of the enemies, then play alone and die. What do you want me to say? that i agree with you and your total unawareness about the gameplay is god-words? Don't expect that! EVER.
Before wanting to change things in the game, maybe understand it?
I never said that everything was perfect, it isn't but you are to extremist in your point of view. It needs some tweaks and flatting the asymmetry is just a non sense, it is the basis of the game.
Now about your "EDIT":
Laughed to much there. Maybe finish to read the paragraph to understand my idea: "usually needs to be covered". If you can't defend your positions as marine, then you deserve to lose. Stop telling us that it is impossible for marines to defend anything! You have solutions in the gameplay that enable marines to be efficient, use them or you'll lose. This not difficult, is it?
Lerks aren't inefficient against structures. Maybe you should know that if you played more?
Once again, I don't tell you to be better than the others, just play more to have more experience, more knowledge of the game, more teamplay. You don't need to be better than the others for that, just knowledge.
Btw, before telling people that they are pathetic, maybe understand what you are talking about?
Lerks aren't inefficient against structures. Maybe you should know that if you played more?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...When did I say that?
I love how you're just avoiding all the points and blindly saying things. You still haven't told me how to deal with the three Skulks attacking your base since you've just gathered four people against one guy.
You'd need three or more marines to deal with that. Which accounts for even less of the other team that can also attack the base while four people area dealing with one person.
Marines have to buy their gear.
Another major issue lies with the Marine's weapons just not having the killing power needed. The Assault Rifle and Shotgun do their jobs well, but the Flamethrower, while nice for an AOE damage, is probably the slowest killing weapon in the game.
in the case of the Gorge, literally render an area impassible for the Marines. One can camp in an area by setting up walls and three hydras which will kill from a range with <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->No visual indicator<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> as to who they're hitting or how they're hitting.
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->TL;DR<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> A very simple way to balance out Marines would be to either remove the passive (un upgraded) heal the Aliens get along with the free buildings they get, or allow the Marines to have the same features (IE free mines or free mini turrets). As it stands the Marines lack flexibility in comparison to their enemy and it makes for a far less enjoyable match.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read your original post. These are what I gathered to be the main points you've made.
First, marines do have to buy their gear. Aliens also have to buy their lifeforms. These are the two things you should be equating. Shotguns, jetpacks, fades, lerks, welders, GLs all pull from the pres pool. You seem to be complaining that things like carapace and regeneration are free yet blatantly ignore that marine armor and weapon upgrades are also free to the individual marines. Your entire paragraph addressing this situation is filled with severely exaggerated statements such as:
>" fades running around killing people and being able to get out at the first sign of danger and <b>instantly heal</b>."
Then you have a problem with the flamethrower's killing power. The flamethrower is a support weapon. This is like complaining that the lerk's gas doesn't kill marines fast enough. It is not meant to outright kill your opponent, it is meant to disable or hinder their ability to fight back. The GL is an anti-building weapon. You shouldn't be taking either the flamethrower or the grenade launcher if you intend on being an anti-lifeform player. These are support weapons that help your fellow marines win the game.
Next you discuss hydras. Free hydras have been the subject of much debate in NS2. Many people, myself included, think free hydras are bad for gameplay because there is no way to push through a gorge wall without an overwhelming amount of resources dedicated to the battle. If hydras weren't free then focusing them down and wearing out the gorge would be a slow but effective strategy. Free hydras means the gorge can just constantly replace lost hydras. Gorge heal spray was also over buffed this patch and clearly needs to be toned down. Right now, breaking a gorge wall of clogs and hydras is effectively impossible until GLs or arcs are out. It's important to note that gorges are very vulnerable before they set up their nests, but once they're dug in they're there to stay.
In your TL;DR you suggest some changes -- removing the base alien regen (2% per second -- regen is 12% by comparison), along with removing hydras, or allowing marines to build free mines or mini turrets. I don't think any of these changes solve any problems. Hydras are really the only way for aliens to hold territory until upgrades kick in a few minutes into the game. And the passive regen is negligable for anything we're talking about here. These changes just don't add anything to the game and would be very likely to introduce new problems such as marines spamming free turrets and rushing the alien hive or spamming free mines everywhere.
First, marines do have to buy their gear. Aliens also have to buy their lifeforms. These are the two things you should be equating. Shotguns, jetpacks, fades, lerks, welders, GLs all pull from the pres pool. You seem to be complaining that things like carapace and regeneration are free yet blatantly ignore that marine armor and weapon upgrades are also free to the individual marines. Your entire paragraph addressing this situation is filled with severely exaggerated statements such as:
>" fades running around killing people and being able to get out at the first sign of danger and <b>instantly heal</b>."
Then you have a problem with the flamethrower's killing power. The flamethrower is a support weapon. This is like complaining that the lerk's gas doesn't kill marines fast enough. It is not meant to outright kill your opponent, it is meant to disable or hinder their ability to fight back. The GL is an anti-building weapon. You shouldn't be taking either the flamethrower or the grenade launcher if you intend on being an anti-lifeform player. These are support weapons that help your fellow marines win the game.
Next you discuss hydras. Free hydras have been the subject of much debate in NS2. Many people, myself included, think free hydras are bad for gameplay because there is no way to push through a gorge wall without an overwhelming amount of resources dedicated to the battle. If hydras weren't free then focusing them down and wearing out the gorge would be a slow but effective strategy. Free hydras means the gorge can just constantly replace lost hydras. Gorge heal spray was also over buffed this patch and clearly needs to be toned down. Right now, breaking a gorge wall of clogs and hydras is effectively impossible until GLs or arcs are out. It's important to note that gorges are very vulnerable before they set up their nests, but once they're dug in they're there to stay.
In your TL;DR you suggest some changes -- removing the base alien regen (2% per second -- regen is 12% by comparison), along with removing hydras, or allowing marines to build free mines or mini turrets. I don't think any of these changes solve any problems. Hydras are really the only way for aliens to hold territory until upgrades kick in a few minutes into the game. And the passive regen is negligable for anything we're talking about here. These changes just don't add anything to the game and would be very likely to introduce new problems such as marines spamming free turrets and rushing the alien hive or spamming free mines everywhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great points here Gorgeous! Totally agree with most of your detailed explanations.
As for the lerk sentence, i made a keyboard mistake, the idea was: lerks are inefficient against buildings until they have the Spikes.
And to tell you about the 3 skulks in you base:
first: 3 skulks don't spawn in you base when you attack gorges, it is rare or you attacked the gorge at the wrong moment. I can't figure all your mistakes of play in my discussion.
Second: IF THIS HAPPENS, taking a gorge down is a matter of seconds if you do it well (organised, efficient). Then beacon into the base or phase threw to the base...
But if a onos comes in, what do i do?!? FIND YOURSELF AND BE CLEVER TO GET A STRATEGY.
The ideas Gorgeous pointed out are clear enough i think...
This debate is completely useless and brings anything new to the existing posts which are more interesting than a trolling river of complains.
^
This has already been said in some previous thread. Your commander can drop you a welder if you ask him, or you can give it to a partner to heal you (armor) and vice-versa.
Imo, i will wait until the last patch which should be coming this week to know what are the fixes of UWE about the welder and the balance.
I've heard this idea suggested a few times over the past month. I've given it some thought and I'm not sure that it would work for the following reasons:
a) it makes marine armor welding in the field too available -- allowing marines to further crush aliens in the early game.
b) it destroys alien harassment. Every marine is now able to fully repair every building with no investment.
I think this might be overpowered.
so .... why are aliens always winning ?
Hitreg ! this is 1 of the reasons, it takes 10 rounds to kill a skulk, marines have 50 rounds in a clip. It certainly doesnt feel like a skulk dies in 10 rounds even when hes running right at you. In NS1 It wasnt uncommon to kill 3 skulks before having to reload
Fast aliens ! Leap skulks/lerks/fades .... the engine just doesnt seem to do well in this regard, not like the HL1 engine or Unreal 3 engine/quake engine which work really well with fast movement gameplay. This is further hampered by the FPS fluctuations and the fact that these fast aliens can change direction so fast and move very unpredictably.
So marines seem to be at a natural disadvantage from the get go so its impossible to say if the two teams are balanced.
Lerks seem impossible to kill when they know what they are doing, a possible counter to the lerk may work (maybe make sentry guns a lerk counter but keep them weak against other lifeforms?)
Fades ... well there are multiple threads about fades, i think there are alot of good ideas in there
Leap skulks ... leap is currently too good im my opinion, it just seems like a flat upgrade to the skulk which makes them infinitely easier to play as. Perhaps make leap a chargeup type of ability, so you hold down the mouse and then leap when you release, or make leap only work when standing still ? so it would become more of an ambush type of ability ?
As for healing, I do think the OP is on to something about the alien healing issues. Regeneration and hive healing is too powerful. Gorges should be used more as the front line healer. Fades can blink out of combat and then before you know it they are back with full health, that should only happen if there is a gorge nearby, so tactically marines would realize this and try to take out that gorge to stop the constant harass. It would add alot more depth to combat than what we have now where aliens can heal up to full health quickly with either regen/crag/hive. Perhaps Regen should be changed to only heal faster when near a healing structure or when being healed by a gorge. ?
so to summerize, i think alien healing should work like this.
Hive - heals a small amount, only really useful for healing skulks
Crag - heals more than a hive, has an active ability that costs res to heal players and structures quickly
Gorge - heals more than a crag
Regen - gives a bonus when receiving healing from a hive/crag/gorge
>" fades running around killing people and being able to get out at the first sign of danger and <b>instantly heal</b>."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's other threads on Fades stating how broken they are. Players in game will tell you how broken they are. Hell first time players who first start playing Fades and get fifty kills and don't die will tell you how OP they are. The fact that I'm often the commander of a team (I think you're Gorgeous George in game? You've seen me command) and I'll also have the most kills half the time (because I just wait tell I can go Fade with Feign death and Regen and join on my downtime) is pretty stupid. There's no way as the Marine commander I can step out, kill the three+ Aliens attacking my base (unless the Marines have Jetpacks, I'll admit it takes longer then) on my own like I can with the Aliens.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then you have a problem with the flamethrower's killing power. The flamethrower is a support weapon. This is like complaining that the lerk's gas doesn't kill marines fast enough. It is not meant to outright kill your opponent, it is meant to disable or hinder their ability to fight back. The GL is an anti-building weapon. You shouldn't be taking either the flamethrower or the grenade launcher if you intend on being an anti-lifeform player. These are support weapons that help your fellow marines win the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't even notice the Flamethrower as a Fade, just saying. I just kill any marine who waste his resources on it. The same is obvious for an Onos or a Lerk flying around.
Lerks have a high killing power, just not fast. Their gas goes straight through armor and do to how easily they can provoke people into following them, it isn't hard to find the time to kill a Marine. Just go to an extractor only area and start killing it. They either come try to deal with you (And either you kill them or get away) or they lose power/extractors.
Grenade Launchers aren't very good anti Building weapons since late game a good Alien com will have enough resources to toss around after fully upgrading his troops (If anyone played with me Com yesterday when I had to all night, I was just tossing around fifty Shades to block off a room) to put up whips which will just throw grenades back unless aimed carefully. Even then you won't have enough safe zones to aim for the hive or the like unless you deal with the Whips first. Not to mention since the Com can easily be a Fade or an Onos, he can fight you himself. I've fought off Aliens as a marine commander, not as easy to kill a Fade/Lerk/Onos (granted I did end up killing the Onos players I fought) as an Alien commander playing Fade/Onos can fend off a few Marines attacking his Hives.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Next you discuss hydras. Free hydras have been the subject of much debate in NS2. Many people, myself included, think free hydras are bad for gameplay because there is no way to push through a gorge wall without an overwhelming amount of resources dedicated to the battle. If hydras weren't free then focusing them down and wearing out the gorge would be a slow but effective strategy. Free hydras means the gorge can just constantly replace lost hydras. Gorge heal spray was also over buffed this patch and clearly needs to be toned down. Right now, breaking a gorge wall of clogs and hydras is effectively impossible until GLs or arcs are out. It's important to note that gorges are very vulnerable before they set up their nests, but once they're dug in they're there to stay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, no real issue here I suppose.
Though I laugh at the guy replying to you since he kept telling me that it was all fine thanks to teamwork but then says "GREAT POST GORGEOUS!!!!!11!!!!"
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In your TL;DR you suggest some changes -- removing the base alien regen (2% per second -- regen is 12% by comparison), along with removing hydras, or allowing marines to build free mines or mini turrets. I don't think any of these changes solve any problems. Hydras are really the only way for aliens to hold territory until upgrades kick in a few minutes into the game. And the passive regen is negligable for anything we're talking about here. These changes just don't add anything to the game and would be very likely to introduce new problems such as marines spamming free turrets and rushing the alien hive or spamming free mines everywhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the base HP regen would help a lot. not to mention it'll also end up nerfing post regen trait down to 10% if it's ab onus over making it a new set amount. It'll make it so Marines can at least get people to stay back longer when the Fades/lerks come out and they can't really handle them (Not saying they're unkillable, but with all the experience players claim to have, you should know they're rarely killable in the current state). Not to mention this will give more importance on Regen over having the large armor buff and some other skill as a combo on two hives.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be something Marines won't research (in the way of turrets), and it shouldn't be something they can place on Creep (Yes, I'm going to use that word when I talk about it). But they need a defense they can count on. I bothered myself to waste over one hundred Resources as com on Turrets to see if I could keep a Lerk and a Fade player out of a room. They were all aimed at him and the lerk flew by without even getting shot and the Fade just took a few hits while killing the turrets one at a time.
This is much different from Whips throwing back grenades and hitting Jetpacking Marines. The turrets feel little more than a bit of a fodder in order to delay the Aliens a bit before they kill other buildings over an actual defense. I think there was only one time I died to a turret and that was as a Skulk when I was new and didn't know the Marine base was there. Aside from that I can't recall ever dieing to one.
Even if we want to neglect all this, you must admit the Aliens have a vastly lower skill floor (With help of things like Gorges blocking a hallway) which cost the Marines heavily, more so since they have no real way to block off an area and will lose a fight if they let Aliens get any sort of jump on them (Most of the time anyway, I'm using averages on the people I command. I watch my Skulks win and my marines lose most early games unless a player is really good. But I don't think the game should be balanced around everyone being prozors.)
Fades are overpowered, this is widly accepted. But I think it is their movement mechanics that are causing this, not a weakness in marines nor an advantage in upgrades. Next patch should tone them down.
You'll notice flamethrowers as a fade when shadowstep costs energy again.
GLs are very good anti-building weapons. I'm not sure why you think they aren't, but GLs and arcs are the only way to break through fortifications. They should be used in groups -- 1-2 GLs, 1-2 shotguns/lmgs. They're absolutely needed if the aliens have had time to turtle. Obviously if marine pushes are dying to fades, the GL is irrelevant because they can't even kill the players. Assuming that they're not getting owned in player vs player combat, the GLs are necessary weapons to break static D. Whips are not invulnerable to GLs anymore, they throw grenades randomly and good aim can still hit most whips reliably.
Turrets suck. You weren't around when they didn't suck, though. And trust me, turrets not-sucking sucks more than turrets sucking for pub play.
One example: Flamethrower is not a damage weapon, it's a support weapon. You're not supposed to kill lifeforms with it.
But structures, and denying alien energy regeneration, are the true targets for the flamer.
TLDR; Play more, and understand the game before coming on the forums and complaining about balance.
Carapace has been solved with the slow effect though I think in the current build it doesn't slow units such as the Skulk, Fade and Lerk quite enough but Regeneration has seemed to be very powerful for a very long time and no matter what changes are made they just aren't enough. Something I think might be an idea for Regeneration is to simply remove it as an evolution and perhaps turn it into a regenerating mist usable by Alien commander instead to give them more direct support for their team.
Someone did the math. Slow is negligible and is removed once you lose the extra armor.