There's only one way to solve Carapace's problems, and that's to <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118789&st=0" target="_blank">remove it and replace it with an upgrade which requires skill.</a>
Oh look, it looks like a lot of rebalance happened this patch. Specifically nerfs to Aliens and buffs to Marines. Armor restored for free from Armories (A less costly way, something I was requesting). Fades have gotten some nerfs, upgrades for aliens have gotten nerfs.
Man, my non existant problems seem to be on the Devs minds too.
<!--quoteo(post=1960181:date=Aug 9 2012, 09:21 PM:name=Copain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Copain @ Aug 9 2012, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh look, it looks like a lot of rebalance happened this patch. Specifically nerfs to Aliens and buffs to Marines. Armor restored for free from Armories (A less costly way, something I was requesting). Fades have gotten some nerfs, upgrades for aliens have gotten nerfs.
Man, my non existant problems seem to be on the Devs minds too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty sure most people here accepted that fades were OP, and armoury change was annoying. Rest of your complaints were not balance issues though, and I'm glad dev's didn't follow your bizarre balancing suggestions.
<!--quoteo(post=1960002:date=Aug 9 2012, 06:57 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 9 2012, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's only one way to solve Carapace's problems, and that's to <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118789&st=0" target="_blank">remove it and replace it with an upgrade which requires skill.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea of cog armour. Makes skulks able to survive a mine or grenade, but still keeps LMG useful late game.
I dunno, it sounds to me like a lot of the design choices addressed a lot of things I mentioned and nerfed specific units, combos, frustrations, and so on. It's harder to Zone deny as just one George VS anything other than Four Marines. Marines don't need to spend a bunch of money and rely on another player to heal their armor each time. Aliens got brought down across the board making it far harder for them to gain an unwarranted upper hand.
Also, Clog armor sounds kinda goofy. It'd punish people for buying things.
Your ideas of what the problems were - are different than the changes. Don't try and claim to be on the same brainwave with the devs.
Fades were OP but not for the reasons you stated. Free Shadowstep and other things like Feign Death are the culprit with Fade, regeneration was not instant nor was it being used during combat.
From the beginning I said there are balance issues, but these ones are not hot topics. i.e. Flamethrower (which is actually still really good for what it does as I said)
Your feedback is good and I hope you continue to do so as you play, but don't try and claim something like that..
<!--quoteo(post=1960551:date=Aug 10 2012, 09:36 AM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Aug 10 2012, 09:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your ideas of what the problems were - are different than the changes. Don't try and claim to be on the same brainwave with the devs.
Fades were OP but not for the reasons you stated. Free Shadowstep and other things like Feign Death are the culprit with Fade, regeneration was not instant nor was it being used during combat.
From the beginning I said there are balance issues, but these ones are not hot topics. i.e. Flamethrower (which is actually still really good for what it does as I said)
Your feedback is good and I hope you continue to do so as you play, but don't try and claim something like that..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm claiming that a lot of the things I mentioned as being foul were addressed. Not specifically in the ways I suggested (mostly), which is funny considering people were claiming it was all fine and balanced, such as the George, when it obviously wasn't if they were nerfed like that.
<!--quoteo(post=1960544:date=Aug 10 2012, 12:28 PM:name=Copain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Copain @ Aug 10 2012, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960544"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, Clog armor sounds kinda goofy. It'd punish people for buying things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It'd be better to discuss this over in that thread so that this one stays on topic, but just to answer my itch of curiousness.. what do you mean?
Do you mean that its a trade-off: better armor against quick massive damage vs. less armor against slow little damage?
All the upgrades are trade-offs. Regen does nothing unless you are out of combat for 12 seconds now (used to be 8 seconds). Feign Death does nothing unless you "die". Camo requires you to move very slowly. Silence requires you to wait for a target to pass by you so you can attack from behind.
Adrenaline is another skill that breaks the mold of "pure bonus with no trade-off" but I don't believe it was out at the time I wrote the topic. I would rather see Adrenaline replaced by some skill requiring ability as well.
Also please note that I was suggesting that Carapace be replaced with a Hive buff of Armor/Health so that the Kharaa team still receives an armor increase as the game progresses, as well as an evolution replacement which players can choose from. The Clog Armor was one of a few suggestions of evolution replacements.
The Clog Armor would actually open up a new play style of that of a "Tank" player -> running ahead of the pack, face planting any mines, and - if they live through it - rushing the first shotgunner they see. This would be called a "Skill" powered ability, as opposed to Carapace which simply provides a flat benefit - and now has a flat detriment of minor speed loss as well as costing more TRes to research.
<!--quoteo(post=1960846:date=Aug 10 2012, 05:43 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 10 2012, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960846"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It'd be better to discuss this over in that thread so that this one stays on topic, but just to answer my itch of curiousness.. what do you mean?
Do you mean that its a trade-off: better armor against quick massive damage vs. less armor against slow little damage?
All the upgrades are trade-offs. Regen does nothing unless you are out of combat for 12 seconds now (used to be 8 seconds). Feign Death does nothing unless you "die". Camo requires you to move very slowly. Silence requires you to wait for a target to pass by you so you can attack from behind.
Adrenaline is another skill that breaks the mold of "pure bonus with no trade-off" but I don't believe it was out at the time I wrote the topic. I would rather see Adrenaline replaced by some skill requiring ability as well.
Also please note that I was suggesting that Carapace be replaced with a Hive buff of Armor/Health so that the Kharaa team still receives an armor increase as the game progresses, as well as an evolution replacement which players can choose from. The Clog Armor was one of a few suggestions of evolution replacements.
The Clog Armor would actually open up a new play style of that of a "Tank" player -> running ahead of the pack, face planting any mines, and - if they live through it - rushing the first shotgunner they see. This would be called a "Skill" powered ability, as opposed to Carapace which simply provides a flat benefit - and now has a flat detriment of minor speed loss as well as costing more TRes to research.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, and as such would punish a Marine for leaving his Assault Rifle behind, but be a really useless skill early game when all they have is Assault Rifles. Hell all it would do would be to make flamethrowers more seen. The Marine needs other weapons to handle things later on, punishing them for leaving that would only be a buff.
<!--quoteo(post=1960912:date=Aug 10 2012, 11:28 PM:name=Copain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Copain @ Aug 10 2012, 11:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, and as such would punish a Marine for leaving his Assault Rifle behind, but be a really useless skill early game when all they have is Assault Rifles. Hell all it would do would be to make flamethrowers more seen. The Marine needs other weapons to handle things later on, punishing them for leaving that would only be a buff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry, are you saying that giving Shotguns to Marines is actually punishing Lerks because they're so effective against them? That giving Flamethrowers to Marines is punishing Fades because they lose all the energy they need to get away after a fight? That a Kharaa's Camouflage is punishing Marine Commanders who don't Ping ahead of their troops? If so, then your logic is very strange, but I think I agree that any upgrade could be viewed as punishment to the enemy team... but why think of it this way? That is in fact the point of an upgrade, to provide a benefit for your team over the opponent.
Why not go over to the other topic to discuss this further if you want, that way this topic doesn't get even more derailed.
just to get back on the topic of balance in general... it must be said any suggestion or change pertaining to balance is all going to be invalidated by exosuit
when i play as marines, and getting dominated, and i think, why are we getting dominated? the answer i come up with is always: because there is no way we can set up a room such that 1 fade cant come in and get at least 1 kill, probably more. there is no obstacle which is too much for them to deal with and survive. fades laugh at a room covered in marines mines and turrets. Everyone who plays this game probably knows what i'm talking about, and i could write a whole wall of text about how hard marines get dominated (by fades mostly), but we all know that. (although i havent played 216 yet)
the point i am trying to make is that once there is something that the marines can get which can reliably fend off the irritating regen skirmishing fades, something that the aliens have to out-number, out-flank, or out-think, everything changes.
so..... Please put it out there so we can start dropping ideas on you devs!
also, hit detection. I know it seems like an easy excuse to say that "I'm hitting him, the game just isn't", but i have heard a lot of this noise, and it really feels like its true, especially the with lurks. so again, with it being so hard for the game to register hits on lurks, for example, its hard to say what to do with his health and speed. all that ties into performance. i never buy a shotgun. at 20 fps, it just is not reliable enough for 20 res
to wrap up, to any devs that may be reading, the exosuit and functioning hit detection (again i want to emphasize that i have no real way of showing that it is broken) should be top priorities, so that there is enough time before release for us testers to play with them, and give feedback
Comments
Man, my non existant problems seem to be on the Devs minds too.
Man, my non existant problems seem to be on the Devs minds too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty sure most people here accepted that fades were OP, and armoury change was annoying. Rest of your complaints were not balance issues though, and I'm glad dev's didn't follow your bizarre balancing suggestions.
<!--quoteo(post=1960002:date=Aug 9 2012, 06:57 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 9 2012, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's only one way to solve Carapace's problems, and that's to <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118789&st=0" target="_blank">remove it and replace it with an upgrade which requires skill.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea of cog armour. Makes skulks able to survive a mine or grenade, but still keeps LMG useful late game.
Also, Clog armor sounds kinda goofy. It'd punish people for buying things.
Fades were OP but not for the reasons you stated. Free Shadowstep and other things like Feign Death are the culprit with Fade, regeneration was not instant nor was it being used during combat.
From the beginning I said there are balance issues, but these ones are not hot topics. i.e. Flamethrower (which is actually still really good for what it does as I said)
Your feedback is good and I hope you continue to do so as you play, but don't try and claim something like that..
Fades were OP but not for the reasons you stated. Free Shadowstep and other things like Feign Death are the culprit with Fade, regeneration was not instant nor was it being used during combat.
From the beginning I said there are balance issues, but these ones are not hot topics. i.e. Flamethrower (which is actually still really good for what it does as I said)
Your feedback is good and I hope you continue to do so as you play, but don't try and claim something like that..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm claiming that a lot of the things I mentioned as being foul were addressed. Not specifically in the ways I suggested (mostly), which is funny considering people were claiming it was all fine and balanced, such as the George, when it obviously wasn't if they were nerfed like that.
It'd be better to discuss this over in that thread so that this one stays on topic, but just to answer my itch of curiousness.. what do you mean?
Do you mean that its a trade-off: better armor against quick massive damage vs. less armor against slow little damage?
All the upgrades are trade-offs. Regen does nothing unless you are out of combat for 12 seconds now (used to be 8 seconds). Feign Death does nothing unless you "die". Camo requires you to move very slowly. Silence requires you to wait for a target to pass by you so you can attack from behind.
Adrenaline is another skill that breaks the mold of "pure bonus with no trade-off" but I don't believe it was out at the time I wrote the topic. I would rather see Adrenaline replaced by some skill requiring ability as well.
Also please note that I was suggesting that Carapace be replaced with a Hive buff of Armor/Health so that the Kharaa team still receives an armor increase as the game progresses, as well as an evolution replacement which players can choose from. The Clog Armor was one of a few suggestions of evolution replacements.
The Clog Armor would actually open up a new play style of that of a "Tank" player -> running ahead of the pack, face planting any mines, and - if they live through it - rushing the first shotgunner they see. This would be called a "Skill" powered ability, as opposed to Carapace which simply provides a flat benefit - and now has a flat detriment of minor speed loss as well as costing more TRes to research.
Do you mean that its a trade-off: better armor against quick massive damage vs. less armor against slow little damage?
All the upgrades are trade-offs. Regen does nothing unless you are out of combat for 12 seconds now (used to be 8 seconds). Feign Death does nothing unless you "die". Camo requires you to move very slowly. Silence requires you to wait for a target to pass by you so you can attack from behind.
Adrenaline is another skill that breaks the mold of "pure bonus with no trade-off" but I don't believe it was out at the time I wrote the topic. I would rather see Adrenaline replaced by some skill requiring ability as well.
Also please note that I was suggesting that Carapace be replaced with a Hive buff of Armor/Health so that the Kharaa team still receives an armor increase as the game progresses, as well as an evolution replacement which players can choose from. The Clog Armor was one of a few suggestions of evolution replacements.
The Clog Armor would actually open up a new play style of that of a "Tank" player -> running ahead of the pack, face planting any mines, and - if they live through it - rushing the first shotgunner they see. This would be called a "Skill" powered ability, as opposed to Carapace which simply provides a flat benefit - and now has a flat detriment of minor speed loss as well as costing more TRes to research.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and as such would punish a Marine for leaving his Assault Rifle behind, but be a really useless skill early game when all they have is Assault Rifles. Hell all it would do would be to make flamethrowers more seen. The Marine needs other weapons to handle things later on, punishing them for leaving that would only be a buff.
I'm sorry, are you saying that giving Shotguns to Marines is actually punishing Lerks because they're so effective against them? That giving Flamethrowers to Marines is punishing Fades because they lose all the energy they need to get away after a fight? That a Kharaa's Camouflage is punishing Marine Commanders who don't Ping ahead of their troops? If so, then your logic is very strange, but I think I agree that any upgrade could be viewed as punishment to the enemy team... but why think of it this way? That is in fact the point of an upgrade, to provide a benefit for your team over the opponent.
Why not go over to the other topic to discuss this further if you want, that way this topic doesn't get even more derailed.
it must be said any suggestion or change pertaining to balance is all going to be invalidated by exosuit
when i play as marines, and getting dominated, and i think, why are we getting dominated?
the answer i come up with is always: because there is no way we can set up a room such that 1 fade cant come in and get at least 1 kill, probably more. there is no obstacle which is too much for them to deal with and survive. fades laugh at a room covered in marines mines and turrets.
Everyone who plays this game probably knows what i'm talking about, and i could write a whole wall of text about how hard marines get dominated (by fades mostly), but we all know that. (although i havent played 216 yet)
the point i am trying to make is that once there is something that the marines can get which can reliably fend off the irritating regen skirmishing fades, something that the aliens have to out-number, out-flank, or out-think, everything changes.
so..... Please put it out there so we can start dropping ideas on you devs!
also, hit detection. I know it seems like an easy excuse to say that "I'm hitting him, the game just isn't", but i have heard a lot of this noise, and it really feels like its true, especially the with lurks. so again, with it being so hard for the game to register hits on lurks, for example, its hard to say what to do with his health and speed.
all that ties into performance. i never buy a shotgun. at 20 fps, it just is not reliable enough for 20 res
to wrap up, to any devs that may be reading, the exosuit and functioning hit detection (again i want to emphasize that i have no real way of showing that it is broken) should be top priorities, so that there is enough time before release for us testers to play with them, and give feedback
first post!