<!--quoteo(post=1953712:date=Jul 25 2012, 06:16 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 25 2012, 06:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Claiming that somebody is wrong without arguments? I love that ....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fine, you made me do it. If you can't kill jetpackers then you are bad. You have a flying lerk, easy to control blink with fade, and leap with skulks. Get better... :-/
You shouldn't be able to come up against a 3/3 upgrade marine with a jetpack and kill him with a skulk. If you think you should be able to then you are seriously delusioned.
On the other hand, if you have trouble killing jetpackers with a fade then either you are terrible or lack patience.
If anything, the jetpacks need to have more fuel and be more controllable with this games current balance.
I Wonder if the Dev's ever tried adding armor damage penalties to Jet Packers in the form of less flight time, every bite you manage to get in on one lessons how long he can fly tell he's repaired, This might even make there JP Upgrades a bit more valid for activating ingame, and I wonder if that same type of system could be implemented for the heavy's, but if Ono's get that ability to eat marines like in ns1 then it might be worth leaving heavy's alone for awhile.
The irony of all these "nerf jetpacks" posts is that jetpacks are still horrible clunkers compared to their NS1 counterparts, which (by the end) were fine. As well, the aliens' ability to combat them has steadily increased in recent builds, to the point where I think their old deficiencies are basically gone. Both teams still have plenty of room for physics improvements, but those improvements ought to benefit jetpacks as well. If there's one thing left to add, it's Focus, or some equivalent thereof - but we mightn't even need it.
In 214, a skilled jetpacker can solo a hive, while aliens of all stripes flail about trying to stop him. Add to that a l'il med and nano spam and he's pretty much untouchable. I look forward to seeing what's changed in 215, if anything at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1953759:date=Jul 25 2012, 09:59 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jul 25 2012, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In 214, a skilled jetpacker can solo a hive, while aliens of all stripes flail about trying to stop him. Add to that a l'il med and nano spam and he's pretty much untouchable. I look forward to seeing what's changed in 215, if anything at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like a typical pub game on aliens... where the alien comm does EVERYTHING while a bunch of noobs run around abusing extremely OP upgrades and movement.
Thank god for that 1 not downy jetpacker who was able to outsmart all those baddy aliens.
Honestly, 1 lerk and a skulk that knows how to use walls and has leap should easily be able to take him down. Keep in mind you have to touch the ground to pickup meds and jetpacks also run out of fuel.
If you're down to your last hive and have no lifeforms or leap then you deserved to lose to that 1 jetpack marine.
If the marine was skilled enough to get into your hive without getting slapped by 30 whips on the way and other lifeforms then your team is bad.
Any intelligent comm would have had all entrances to the main hive secured with at least 1 whip so that the marines coming through are weakened. The lerk gases and poison bites the marine making an easy 1 bite kill for the skulk. That jetpack dude can't run away to an armory for armor anymore so he has at max 2 bites left. People need to stop complaining about jetpackers.
I take them down with a single skulk vs some of my better teammates all the time.
<!--quoteo(post=1953534:date=Jul 24 2012, 08:32 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Jul 24 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->JP or EXO, well better get the JP and fly around with a flame to deny even regen Skulks. As EXO you are on the ground and may be fresh meat for stomping Onoses while the JP chuckles at any Alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Will stomp even work on exos? Seems to me it shouldnt have nearly as much of an effect as it does on reg rines, then again that would make it totally worthless late game considering how spammy all the equipment in this game is.
<!--quoteo(post=1954482:date=Jul 27 2012, 07:07 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 27 2012, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds like a typical pub game on aliens... where the alien comm does EVERYTHING while a bunch of noobs run around abusing extremely OP upgrades and movement.
Thank god for that 1 not downy jetpacker who was able to outsmart all those baddy aliens.
Honestly, 1 lerk and a skulk that knows how to use walls and has leap should easily be able to take him down. Keep in mind you have to touch the ground to pickup meds and jetpacks also run out of fuel.
If you're down to your last hive and have no lifeforms or leap then you deserved to lose to that 1 jetpack marine.
If the marine was skilled enough to get into your hive without getting slapped by 30 whips on the way and other lifeforms then your team is bad.
Any intelligent comm would have had all entrances to the main hive secured with at least 1 whip so that the marines coming through are weakened. The lerk gases and poison bites the marine making an easy 1 bite kill for the skulk. That jetpack dude can't run away to an armory for armor anymore so he has at max 2 bites left. People need to stop complaining about jetpackers.
I take them down with a single skulk vs some of my better teammates all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well you have like 900 hours played so are hardly typical, I imagine most people who play this would shy away from devoting that much time to it.
Still, if the fps didnt drop by like 20 when jps entered your room I think they would be much more manageable.
I do think a lot of aliens don't understand the limitation of JP fuel in this game. If you spend all your time trying to do sweet midair kills, you'll probably miss your opportunity when he's actually vulnerable. JPs in NS2 are quite sluggish, they do not regen fuel at all in midair and they don't have much left to retreat after flying for a while. The longer they're in the air, the bigger the vulnerability window is when they land again.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1954482:date=Jul 27 2012, 04:07 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 27 2012, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and jetpacks also run out of fuel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They do? Sure seems like they dont when refueling begins at 0.7 seconds.. When i jp, i just fly to as high as i can go, so that i've refueled somewhat by the time i hit the ground. Rinse and repeat.
<!--quoteo(post=1954510:date=Jul 27 2012, 07:15 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jul 27 2012, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they do not regen fuel at all in midair<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is actually incorrect.
<!--quoteo(post=1953719:date=Jul 25 2012, 08:03 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 25 2012, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you can't kill jetpackers then you are bad. You have a flying lerk, easy to control blink with fade, and leap with skulks. Get better... :-/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only relatively consistent counter the aliens have against marine JPs are lerk spikes. Everything else (from an active player POV, not counting whips or hydras) requires you to leap / fly / blink to a ridiculously close distance to the marine and then land a well-timed bite or stab. I'm not saying it should be easy. I'm just suggesting that it's relatively difficult and your average player (we are not all competitive players here) will not be able to do it. While it is comparatively easy to figure out jet packs and own the sky. Enough of that unbalanced equation and most players will start screaming the jet packs are OP. Which seems to be what is happening...?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You shouldn't be able to come up against a 3/3 upgrade marine with a jetpack and kill him with a skulk. If you think you should be able to then you are seriously delusioned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, but what life form <i>should</i> be able to kill him at this point? I know you've posted elsewhere that the khammander should be spamming whips to make it more difficult for marines to solo hives, but I think it's ridiculous that we should have to rely on whips to defend against JP's, and turrets to defend against lerks and fades, as opposed to make it possible for one player to land hits on another without being a competition pro.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other hand, if you have trouble killing jetpackers with a fade then either you are terrible or lack patience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll agree that patience is required, as the only way you can get close to marines is when they're running out of fuel. But then the window of opportunity is so slim to make that happen that all you have time for is one stab before he's off and flying again. And if he's a smart marine, he's already leaving the main engagement area to get a bit of safe space to refuel before he's back on the attack.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If anything, the jetpacks need to have more fuel and be more controllable with this games current balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you say - with the game's current balance - the jet pack is the only decent advantage the marines have to fight the aliens. Usually when aliens get the second hive it's the beginning of the end, but 1-2 skilled jet packers can stop the tide of fades from harassing the marine base until it's GG. I don't think it's the right approach to look at the game balance on a build-by-build balance, it should always be a moving target with the balance being assessed with all the features implemented. The Onos and Gorge still have missing abilities, the Exo is missing... when these happen, we'll be needing to talk balance all over again.
Personally I consider the jetpack a bit of an exploitable item - you get way too much of an advantage for a comparatively low 10 Pres. Up the price to 15 Pres and nerf the refuel cooldown and I think it will be a bit more balanced.
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
<!--quoteo(post=1954505:date=Jul 28 2012, 01:58 AM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Jul 28 2012, 01:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well you have like 900 hours played so are hardly typical, I imagine most people who play this would shy away from devoting that much time to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The most wrong answer you can give on a balance issue. No more words.
<!--quoteo(post=1953719:date=Jul 25 2012, 04:03 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 25 2012, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fine, you made me do it. If you can't kill jetpackers then you are bad. You have a flying lerk, easy to control blink with fade, and leap with skulks. Get better... :-/
You shouldn't be able to come up against a 3/3 upgrade marine with a jetpack and kill him with a skulk. If you think you should be able to then you are seriously delusioned.
On the other hand, if you have trouble killing jetpackers with a fade then either you are terrible or lack patience.
If anything, the jetpacks need to have more fuel and be more controllable with this games current balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope you left this during a previous version where jetpacks can't literally hover you around corners without any effort at all. Otherwise, that's dumb. We don't need jetpacks being able to save a marine long-term, and the amount of control they grant you is enough to fly in little circles in place if you want to. Hell, you can even jump backward with it.
I get killed with my jetpack all the time despite being really proficient at navigating without hitting walls and ceilings with it. I also chase running Fades all the way back to their Hive with my Jetpack and an assault rifle, because that's the only goddamned way to make them die <i>all the goddam way</i>. I think the jetpack alone should be practically expendable in cost, which 10 is appropriate there. It's a base upgrade that levels the movement playing field between the two teams.
To people saying "there's no downside" No dur there isn't, it's a <i>jetpack</i>. the downside is that when you die with a flamethrower or grenade lancher or shotgun <i>and</i> a jetpack you've just lost your gun +10. The downside is not being able to wear an Exo. There was never a downside to jetpacks in any game with this style. Tremulous & it's predecessor or NS1.
At this point I am honestly wondering why I didn't just download Tremulous and play it again, because this game has half as many features. I hope they add another weapon, or another alien, or<i> something</i> because right now there just isn't that much variety at all. There are those rails over there again.
<!--quoteo(post=1954938:date=Jul 29 2012, 03:38 PM:name=blujay)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blujay @ Jul 29 2012, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To people saying "there's no downside" No dur there isn't, it's a <i>jetpack</i>. the downside is that when you die with a flamethrower or grenade lancher or shotgun <i>and</i> a jetpack you've just lost your gun +10. The downside is not being able to wear an Exo. There was never a downside to jetpacks in any game with this style. Tremulous & it's predecessor or NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically everything has a downside in NS2 and i think its a design decision. And NS2 is supposed to have changes that differ it from NS1.
Take the marine weapons for example: LMG: nice range, nice damage Shotgun: low range due to it's spread, burst damage Flamer: disables whips, decreases energy regen of burning aliens, low initial damage but nice damage when able to attack for a long time, low range GL: can damage yourself, long range, aoe effect, small magazine, can't fight enemies up close
The same is for alien classes: Skulk: fast, can walk on walls and ceilings, fair damage, low health, leap Gorge: slow, no real damage, ranged ability, can build, bile bomb Lerk: can fly, no burst damage, ranged combat Fade: slow, shift, blink, easy to hit because of large size, good damage Onos: slow as hell, ton of health and armor, even easier to hit than the fade, stomp, completely useless against jetpack and easily killed by them.
Though the fact that the res paid for alien lifeforms are higher than for marine weapons they should have lesser trade offs the more expensive they become. I think it work well with the lerk and the fade but the onos is just not worth the res it will become worse when the exo arrives but that is a other topic.
To continue with this, the decision which hive type to get has always a trade off. Even which alien upgrade to take because when you pick one you cant pick a other (of course this is softened up with more hives). Marine weapon/armor upgrades have no trade off, but since the alien ability unlocks have none i think we could call it even. But the jetpack just has to have a trade off it improves the marine just way to much in any situation for nearly no cost. Currently not being able to wear a exo is no downside since the exo isn't ingame yet. Even with the exo available i don't think many people will chose the exo over the jetpack. The jetpack makes it just to easy to get past any defense and into a hive room to kill a hive or set up a ninja phase gate. The exo will also have downsides, afaik it will be slow, not being able to jump normaly and probably won't be able to use the phasegate.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1954950:date=Jul 29 2012, 03:42 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 29 2012, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... but the onos is just not worth the res it will become worse when the exo arrives but that is a other topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've had 90 minute games where aliens never got a single Onos because JPs have classically (NS1) always been the counter to Onos (and fades, lerks, and skulks are much more adept at taking them down). Onos classically was the counter to HA, so it would stand to reason that once the Exo arrives, Onos will actually be useful again!
<!--quoteo(post=1954956:date=Jul 29 2012, 05:00 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Jul 29 2012, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've had 90 minute games where aliens never got a single Onos because JPs have classically (NS1) always been the counter to Onos (and fades, lerks, and skulks are much more adept at taking them down). Onos classically was the counter to HA, so it would stand to reason that once the Exo arrives, Onos will actually be useful again!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree in theory with you, but the most powerful onos ability in NS1 against HAs was the devour. Seeing how easy the onos is being killed currenlty and all exo will start with a minigun by default and that they most likely won't be affected this much by stomp i doubt that currently :/
I dunno, jetpacks were even better in NS1 but still made useless by laming up areas with OC's / having good alien defense.
Also the whole armor welding thing in NS1 made jetpackers back off a lot more. In NS2 jetpacks are a gimmick bandaid for the marines. They are pretty essential for winning a game where 2 alien hives are up.
I know people will disagree and call me an elitistm but killing a jetpacker in ns2 isn't hard at all... especially with all the upgrades on aliens.
People are just complaining that people are too good with them, when they aren't even nearly as good as they were in ns1.
Even in NS1 I could own jetpack marines with only leap with a skulk and the same is true in NS2. If a marine is in a tight hallway he is easy to kill even when he has a JP.
You have to use your brain... herpin derp derp derp. Don't engage jetpackers in an enviornment that caters to their movement... its a simple concept. They have to push you eventually to win and that is when you choose your attack.
<!--quoteo(post=1954959:date=Jul 29 2012, 04:07 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 29 2012, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a marine is in a tight hallway he is easy to kill even when he has a JP.
You have to use your brain... herpin derp derp derp. Don't engage jetpackers in an enviornment that caters to their movement... its a simple concept. They have to push you eventually to win and that is when you choose your attack.
Nobody has patience or strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with .ADHd said. A skulk in a tight hall way makes easy work of jetpackers. Skulks just need to plan it right. Jetpackers are nothing for a fade. I hear and can imagine lerks being good against a jetpacker but I am a poor lerk.
<!--quoteo(post=1954962:date=Jul 29 2012, 05:57 PM:name=james888)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (james888 @ Jul 29 2012, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954962"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with .ADHd said. A skulk in a tight hall way makes easy work of jetpackers. Skulks just need to plan it right. Jetpackers are nothing for a fade. I hear and can imagine lerks being good against a jetpacker but I am a poor lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right than what to do in almost every hive room. You can't stop them from entering and the fuel lasts for almost forever. It's okay to fight them if it is a 1v1 in a place of your choice, but try to fight a jet pack in a hive like cave or warehouse. OCs and Web were a big help in NS1 that are currently missing. And they were more expensive back then.
i would prevent jetpackers from wielding advanced weaponry like gls, flamer and maybe shotgun. that would be a nice tradeoff. since i see jetpackers as pure fast response units. not heavy assault and invincible spammers like they are right now. if they want to carry a grenade launcher make the jetpack burn its fuel faster with a slower climbing rate since the weapon is heavier..
<!--quoteo(post=1954958:date=Jul 29 2012, 06:04 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 29 2012, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954958"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree in theory with you, but the most powerful onos ability in NS1 against HAs was the devour. Seeing how easy the onos is being killed currenlty and all exo will start with a minigun by default and that they most likely won't be affected this much by stomp i doubt that currently :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless they make exosuits unable to jump (and therefore vulnerable to stomp), I cannot see onos being useful again. They will just be slaughtered more.
<!--quoteo(post=1954964:date=Jul 29 2012, 07:33 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 29 2012, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right than what to do in almost every hive room. You can't stop them from entering and the fuel lasts for almost forever. It's okay to fight them if it is a 1v1 in a place of your choice, but try to fight a jet pack in a hive like cave or warehouse. OCs and Web were a big help in NS1 that are currently missing. And they were more expensive back then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah problem with JP is not 1v1 scenario. A good alien can win with good planning and timing. The problem is a marine with a jetpack can do incredible damage to a hive before being killed.
Previously a gorge would have just webbed the hive with alot of OCs, cannot do that anymore.
Comments
Fine, you made me do it. If you can't kill jetpackers then you are bad. You have a flying lerk, easy to control blink with fade, and leap with skulks. Get better... :-/
You shouldn't be able to come up against a 3/3 upgrade marine with a jetpack and kill him with a skulk. If you think you should be able to then you are seriously delusioned.
On the other hand, if you have trouble killing jetpackers with a fade then either you are terrible or lack patience.
If anything, the jetpacks need to have more fuel and be more controllable with this games current balance.
Sounds like a typical pub game on aliens... where the alien comm does EVERYTHING while a bunch of noobs run around abusing extremely OP upgrades and movement.
Thank god for that 1 not downy jetpacker who was able to outsmart all those baddy aliens.
Honestly, 1 lerk and a skulk that knows how to use walls and has leap should easily be able to take him down. Keep in mind you have to touch the ground to pickup meds and jetpacks also run out of fuel.
If you're down to your last hive and have no lifeforms or leap then you deserved to lose to that 1 jetpack marine.
If the marine was skilled enough to get into your hive without getting slapped by 30 whips on the way and other lifeforms then your team is bad.
Any intelligent comm would have had all entrances to the main hive secured with at least 1 whip so that the marines coming through are weakened. The lerk gases and poison bites the marine making an easy 1 bite kill for the skulk. That jetpack dude can't run away to an armory for armor anymore so he has at max 2 bites left. People need to stop complaining about jetpackers.
I take them down with a single skulk vs some of my better teammates all the time.
Will stomp even work on exos? Seems to me it shouldnt have nearly as much of an effect as it does on reg rines, then again that would make it totally worthless late game considering how spammy all the equipment in this game is.
<!--quoteo(post=1954482:date=Jul 27 2012, 07:07 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 27 2012, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds like a typical pub game on aliens... where the alien comm does EVERYTHING while a bunch of noobs run around abusing extremely OP upgrades and movement.
Thank god for that 1 not downy jetpacker who was able to outsmart all those baddy aliens.
Honestly, 1 lerk and a skulk that knows how to use walls and has leap should easily be able to take him down. Keep in mind you have to touch the ground to pickup meds and jetpacks also run out of fuel.
If you're down to your last hive and have no lifeforms or leap then you deserved to lose to that 1 jetpack marine.
If the marine was skilled enough to get into your hive without getting slapped by 30 whips on the way and other lifeforms then your team is bad.
Any intelligent comm would have had all entrances to the main hive secured with at least 1 whip so that the marines coming through are weakened. The lerk gases and poison bites the marine making an easy 1 bite kill for the skulk. That jetpack dude can't run away to an armory for armor anymore so he has at max 2 bites left. People need to stop complaining about jetpackers.
I take them down with a single skulk vs some of my better teammates all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well you have like 900 hours played so are hardly typical, I imagine most people who play this would shy away from devoting that much time to it.
Still, if the fps didnt drop by like 20 when jps entered your room I think they would be much more manageable.
They do?
Sure seems like they dont when refueling begins at 0.7 seconds..
When i jp, i just fly to as high as i can go, so that i've refueled somewhat by the time i hit the ground.
Rinse and repeat.
<!--quoteo(post=1954510:date=Jul 27 2012, 07:15 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jul 27 2012, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they do not regen fuel at all in midair<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is actually incorrect.
The only relatively consistent counter the aliens have against marine JPs are lerk spikes. Everything else (from an active player POV, not counting whips or hydras) requires you to leap / fly / blink to a ridiculously close distance to the marine and then land a well-timed bite or stab. I'm not saying it should be easy. I'm just suggesting that it's relatively difficult and your average player (we are not all competitive players here) will not be able to do it. While it is comparatively easy to figure out jet packs and own the sky. Enough of that unbalanced equation and most players will start screaming the jet packs are OP. Which seems to be what is happening...?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You shouldn't be able to come up against a 3/3 upgrade marine with a jetpack and kill him with a skulk. If you think you should be able to then you are seriously delusioned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, but what life form <i>should</i> be able to kill him at this point? I know you've posted elsewhere that the khammander should be spamming whips to make it more difficult for marines to solo hives, but I think it's ridiculous that we should have to rely on whips to defend against JP's, and turrets to defend against lerks and fades, as opposed to make it possible for one player to land hits on another without being a competition pro.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other hand, if you have trouble killing jetpackers with a fade then either you are terrible or lack patience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll agree that patience is required, as the only way you can get close to marines is when they're running out of fuel. But then the window of opportunity is so slim to make that happen that all you have time for is one stab before he's off and flying again. And if he's a smart marine, he's already leaving the main engagement area to get a bit of safe space to refuel before he's back on the attack.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If anything, the jetpacks need to have more fuel and be more controllable with this games current balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you say - with the game's current balance - the jet pack is the only decent advantage the marines have to fight the aliens. Usually when aliens get the second hive it's the beginning of the end, but 1-2 skilled jet packers can stop the tide of fades from harassing the marine base until it's GG. I don't think it's the right approach to look at the game balance on a build-by-build balance, it should always be a moving target with the balance being assessed with all the features implemented. The Onos and Gorge still have missing abilities, the Exo is missing... when these happen, we'll be needing to talk balance all over again.
Personally I consider the jetpack a bit of an exploitable item - you get way too much of an advantage for a comparatively low 10 Pres. Up the price to 15 Pres and nerf the refuel cooldown and I think it will be a bit more balanced.
The most wrong answer you can give on a balance issue. No more words.
make the jetpack less sluggish, perhaps an upgrade ?
increase refuel delay time to 1.2 seconds
You shouldn't be able to come up against a 3/3 upgrade marine with a jetpack and kill him with a skulk. If you think you should be able to then you are seriously delusioned.
On the other hand, if you have trouble killing jetpackers with a fade then either you are terrible or lack patience.
If anything, the jetpacks need to have more fuel and be more controllable with this games current balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope you left this during a previous version where jetpacks can't literally hover you around corners without any effort at all. Otherwise, that's dumb. We don't need jetpacks being able to save a marine long-term, and the amount of control they grant you is enough to fly in little circles in place if you want to. Hell, you can even jump backward with it.
I get killed with my jetpack all the time despite being really proficient at navigating without hitting walls and ceilings with it. I also chase running Fades all the way back to their Hive with my Jetpack and an assault rifle, because that's the only goddamned way to make them die <i>all the goddam way</i>. I think the jetpack alone should be practically expendable in cost, which 10 is appropriate there. It's a base upgrade that levels the movement playing field between the two teams.
To people saying "there's no downside" No dur there isn't, it's a <i>jetpack</i>. the downside is that when you die with a flamethrower or grenade lancher or shotgun <i>and</i> a jetpack you've just lost your gun +10. The downside is not being able to wear an Exo. There was never a downside to jetpacks in any game with this style. Tremulous & it's predecessor or NS1.
At this point I am honestly wondering why I didn't just download Tremulous and play it again, because this game has half as many features. I hope they add another weapon, or another alien, or<i> something</i> because right now there just isn't that much variety at all. There are those rails over there again.
Basically everything has a downside in NS2 and i think its a design decision. And NS2 is supposed to have changes that differ it from NS1.
Take the marine weapons for example:
LMG: nice range, nice damage
Shotgun: low range due to it's spread, burst damage
Flamer: disables whips, decreases energy regen of burning aliens, low initial damage but nice damage when able to attack for a long time, low range
GL: can damage yourself, long range, aoe effect, small magazine, can't fight enemies up close
The same is for alien classes:
Skulk: fast, can walk on walls and ceilings, fair damage, low health, leap
Gorge: slow, no real damage, ranged ability, can build, bile bomb
Lerk: can fly, no burst damage, ranged combat
Fade: slow, shift, blink, easy to hit because of large size, good damage
Onos: slow as hell, ton of health and armor, even easier to hit than the fade, stomp, completely useless against jetpack and easily killed by them.
Though the fact that the res paid for alien lifeforms are higher than for marine weapons they should have lesser trade offs the more expensive they become. I think it work well with the lerk and the fade but the onos is just not worth the res it will become worse when the exo arrives but that is a other topic.
To continue with this, the decision which hive type to get has always a trade off. Even which alien upgrade to take because when you pick one you cant pick a other (of course this is softened up with more hives). Marine weapon/armor upgrades have no trade off, but since the alien ability unlocks have none i think we could call it even. But the jetpack just has to have a trade off it improves the marine just way to much in any situation for nearly no cost. Currently not being able to wear a exo is no downside since the exo isn't ingame yet. Even with the exo available i don't think many people will chose the exo over the jetpack. The jetpack makes it just to easy to get past any defense and into a hive room to kill a hive or set up a ninja phase gate. The exo will also have downsides, afaik it will be slow, not being able to jump normaly and probably won't be able to use the phasegate.
I've had 90 minute games where aliens never got a single Onos because JPs have classically (NS1) always been the counter to Onos (and fades, lerks, and skulks are much more adept at taking them down).
Onos classically was the counter to HA, so it would stand to reason that once the Exo arrives, Onos will actually be useful again!
Onos classically was the counter to HA, so it would stand to reason that once the Exo arrives, Onos will actually be useful again!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree in theory with you, but the most powerful onos ability in NS1 against HAs was the devour. Seeing how easy the onos is being killed currenlty and all exo will start with a minigun by default and that they most likely won't be affected this much by stomp i doubt that currently :/
Also the whole armor welding thing in NS1 made jetpackers back off a lot more. In NS2 jetpacks are a gimmick bandaid for the marines. They are pretty essential for winning a game where 2 alien hives are up.
I know people will disagree and call me an elitistm but killing a jetpacker in ns2 isn't hard at all... especially with all the upgrades on aliens.
People are just complaining that people are too good with them, when they aren't even nearly as good as they were in ns1.
Even in NS1 I could own jetpack marines with only leap with a skulk and the same is true in NS2. If a marine is in a tight hallway he is easy to kill even when he has a JP.
You have to use your brain... herpin derp derp derp. Don't engage jetpackers in an enviornment that caters to their movement... its a simple concept. They have to push you eventually to win and that is when you choose your attack.
Nobody has patience or strategy.
You have to use your brain... herpin derp derp derp. Don't engage jetpackers in an enviornment that caters to their movement... its a simple concept. They have to push you eventually to win and that is when you choose your attack.
Nobody has patience or strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with .ADHd said. A skulk in a tight hall way makes easy work of jetpackers. Skulks just need to plan it right. Jetpackers are nothing for a fade. I hear and can imagine lerks being good against a jetpacker but I am a poor lerk.
Right than what to do in almost every hive room. You can't stop them from entering and the fuel lasts for almost forever. It's okay to fight them if it is a 1v1 in a place of your choice, but try to fight a jet pack in a hive like cave or warehouse. OCs and Web were a big help in NS1 that are currently missing. And they were more expensive back then.
Unless they make exosuits unable to jump (and therefore vulnerable to stomp), I cannot see onos being useful again. They will just be slaughtered more.
<!--quoteo(post=1954964:date=Jul 29 2012, 07:33 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 29 2012, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right than what to do in almost every hive room. You can't stop them from entering and the fuel lasts for almost forever. It's okay to fight them if it is a 1v1 in a place of your choice, but try to fight a jet pack in a hive like cave or warehouse. OCs and Web were a big help in NS1 that are currently missing. And they were more expensive back then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah problem with JP is not 1v1 scenario. A good alien can win with good planning and timing. The problem is a marine with a jetpack can do incredible damage to a hive before being killed.
Previously a gorge would have just webbed the hive with alot of OCs, cannot do that anymore.