How Much Is That Gorgy In The Window?
Savant
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">How many gorges is too much?</div> OK, so we all know that too many gorges spells certain death for the alien team. What I'd like to toss up for debate is what kind of formula do you think works best for the ideal number of gorges on a team.
My thoughts are:
<b>G=H+1</b>
<b>G=P/4 </b><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(rounded down)
G=Gorges
H=Hives (Fully built)
P=Players on a team</span>
What are your thoughts on a formula that could be used in game to restrict the number of gorges? (Of course a eject gorge command would be critical in this case - but let's talk numbers for now)
Any thoughts?
Regards,
Savant
My thoughts are:
<b>G=H+1</b>
<b>G=P/4 </b><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(rounded down)
G=Gorges
H=Hives (Fully built)
P=Players on a team</span>
What are your thoughts on a formula that could be used in game to restrict the number of gorges? (Of course a eject gorge command would be critical in this case - but let's talk numbers for now)
Any thoughts?
Regards,
Savant
Comments
However, I think that one gorge per hive is best unless, in the early game and the game is large (7 or more per team) you have 1 gorge making his way to a new hive to set up defense and the other just capping Res. Two gorges building early game is death. Additionally, to have a gorge playing "piggybank" by just sitting in a hive waiting for res to build it and not defending it first is a receipe for disaster.
<b>G = RT/2</b>
or
<b>1G per 5P</b>
its a good idea to only start the game with 1 gorge, so he gets the mjority of the res. then after he had built a few resource towers then a second should apear.
well that my 2 cents. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
6-8 People = 2 Gorg
8+ People = 3 Gorg
I like those Numbers they work well.
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH
After second hive, I still would prefer only one gorge, no matter how many players there are. First, I think that player would be more useful to the team as a fade or lerk, and second, if the original gorge is good, he'll be able to get more done faster than by having additional gorges.
Every additional gorge on the team slows down the alien progress, even if you have every resource node on the map, even if you have all three hives, the more gorges you have, the less effective the team is. One is enough.
There are some situations where more than one gorge at a time is acceptable, but I've never seen this in a pub game. Usually you will have one gorge that knows what he is doing, and then another or more gorges who -think- they know what they are doing, but are actually hurting the team more than helping it.
Just have to get this off my chest, anyhow.
It aggrivates me so much to see, in the first minute of the game, someone going gorge....
It is completely pointless! since the team only has one node and all you cannot possibly gain res faster than any of the skulks that are on your team...
This is what I propose... hold off from going gorge until you have 33 res, then go gorge and cap a node straight off the bat. In the beginning game gorges are usless vs. marines... you *could* get lucky, but all in all, its a better tactic to just rush and harry the marines as long as possible instead of sitting usless at a res node and spit on everyone. I KNOW everyone does it the other way, but lil' ole me is thinking for the team, and the ability that most everyone passes up to maximize crucial early game effectiveness.
Kotau
remember going lerk at level 1 hive is worse than going gorge.
Kotau going gorge when you have 33 RP is a mistake, because it slows down the time for the 2nd hive to come online.
Think about it, if you went gorge at 33 res, then you and only you would be getting all the res for the team... it speeds things up if anything because the other players' (who hopefully stay skulks) resources would all come straight to you
If this is wrong or something I'd like to know, so far it's worked wonderfully for me.
Why?
Because if you go right away, you'll have almost no resources and you'll have to wait a long time before you can cap a nozzle.
If you wait 'til 33, you evolve and have 20 resources plus whatever you got while evolving, probably 1 or 2, making it perfect for capping the node immediately upon getting 33.
I don't know if you get resources faster as a gorge when you have only one nozzle or not. I doubt it's much more at all if you do, and by waiting for 33 you'll make it up <i>really</i> fast because everyone has 33.
It's completely rediculous to go gorge right away. One more skulk for that minute or two can make a big difference.
I can't believe that so few people can't come to such a simple realization... Yet i see people go gorge immediately almost every game. It's sad.
Wooo!
(oh, by the way zifnab, nice sig <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The only reason ever to get more than one gorge, is if the one gorge you have is so pouring in resources that he can't build fast enough to build all the buildings the team needs.
Once all the non-gorges have a full bank of resources, all the resources go to the gorge(s). Whether you have one or two, they'll still get the same amount of combined resources, so they can build the same amount of buildings total, whether there's one or two. So basically, you're getting the same amount of gorging, for the cost of two players instead of one.
So, the only reason to ever get more than one gorge is if the one gorge you have just can't build fast enough. That means never, basically.
Two exceptions:
1. Battlegorge. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Yes, they can do very well. I love doing this, actually. Basically, with web and healspray, a gorge can take on any single marine, and also provide support to fades and lerks. Fade/Lerk/Gorge is a killer combo. Keep in mind that you're sucking up valuable resources, and you're probably not using them. However, if you can save just two fades from dying, you've already made up for 96 resources...
2. Crappy team. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> If you have one of those teams composed of players that are beyond the stage of thinking the gorge is a "l33t ranged alien", but still don't have enough basic understanding of the alien resource model to not go lerk when they have 33. And then they die within a minute without doing any real damage. Players going lerk means the gorge is not getting all the resources, and that means that more gorges will pull in more gorge-resources. For example, if three players don't have a full pouch of resources (due to lerking when they really shouldn't be), one gorge will pull in half of the teams resources, but two gorges will pull in 6/9ths of the teams resources, in total.
Now, about going gorge "just to put up a node", and then changing back. My major gripe with this is that it makes 17 resources (or 13, if you just kill yourself, which hardly anyone does <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->) go down the drain, which really shouldn't be necessary.
Do this only if:
A. There is no gorge anywhere near you, or the gorge is totally occupied with something else. If he's close and not doing something very important, just call him to you. Don't whine, just tell him that there's a free node at wherever you are, and if he knows his trade, he'll come.
<i>And</i> B. The node is in a safe location. Not likely to see marine action in the next three minutes.
<i>And</i> C. The gorge is not saving for a hive. You'll only slow him down, and hives are essential. (doubles spawn rate, allows higher aliens, allows a new chamber type, allows a new upgrade type)
<i>And</i> D. You're a skulk. Devolving from lerk or fade wastes even more resources, and your res tower will most likely not even pay for itself before the game is over.
Chances are, if your gorge is good, he'll have capped any safe resource nodes already...
Gorge at 13 versus gorge once you get to 33. This is actually an easy one, if you know how the alien resource system works. Consider these two things:
1. The gorge, at any time, gets <i>three times as much</i> resources as a skulk.
2. The first resource nozzle that is built after the starting one, <i>doubles</i> the teams income.
If you think about that, you'll see that you'll want that first node up as soon as is possibly possible, and that the way to get that node up as soon as is possible, is for the gorge to evolve the instant he gets 13.
The would-be gorge that waits for 33 before evolving has 20 resources by the time I start on my nozzle (in the time I get 22 resources, he gets ~7). He has to wait for as much as two minutes for those last 13. Two very, very critical minutes.
This whole post assumes, of course, that the first gorge knows very well what he's doing. A bad gorge <i>will</i> mess you up. It's probably better to have two gorges, one of which has a clue, than one gorge without a clue. Please tell the crappy gorge (nicely <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->) that it would be better for the team if he goes back to skulk, and that being a gorge is only for experienced players.
Two final notes:
1. If you're in doubt if you should go gorge, <i>ask</i> your team. Actually, even if you're sure, still ask. Always ask. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
2. Gorges, keep your team updated on your situation. "I'm capping the node at so-and-so right now." "I'm building so-and-so hive soon, I could use some backup." "I'll build D chambers now, so you can get carapace." It really works wonders for getting your team coordinated. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yeah.
I often find myself playing BattleGorge as the Marine strategy of relocating to a hive becomes more widespread. I mean after you have sufficent res nodes and all upgrades duplicated and both hives what else is there to do? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I don't mind people just putting up nodes and leaving them undefended, the extra res it brings in is a bonus and sometimes they are never touched. If they are attacked it gives the skulks something to do while they save for fades. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
2 is too many
3 is just............no
ahem... anyway. Yeah, I'd agree with the 1:4 or 1:6 ratio. In a very big game, you need more gorges to set up defense around the hive, and to build defense in preparation for the second hive area. One lone gorge *could* do it, but then you don't have anyone capping resources while defenses go up.
2 gorge is alright for assistant buidling
3rd gorge in big games can be battlefilend assistnat.
By the way Spectre, mind if I copy your post to another (private) forum?
That's not true, that fades are useles against grens. Grens take a while to explode unles they hit your right away, which is highly unlikely. When you have the third hive with the bile bomb, even 5 turrets can't win from you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Grenade launchers work great as defense, but not as offence imho <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Oppinions differ ofcourse
Sometimes I go gorge straight away because you do pick up a few extra res like that, and if all your skulk buddies die you get the res while they're respawning <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
This may not sound very team friendly but getting that second hive up just that little bit earlier can really help. If I do go gorge 'straight off'(but after I have got to a hive and hidden myself somehere nice) I will most likely spend the first few minutes of the game hiding at a quiet hive, I'll let the team know what's going on and if we have the alien-power I'll suggest a second gorge for setting up res towers and a couple of OT in the first hive area - just a couple mind (to keep out the lone marine hero or slow/warn us of the troops before they start on the hive).
Once the second hive is being build I'll drop in OT, Dc, Mc or sensory and when the hives done plenty of tactically positioned webs. Nothing better than webbing the marines for a pack of skulks to eat <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I try to use few webs over a larger area rather than spamming an entire corridor with them. I find as marine if our group encounters a 'webwall' one marine will sacrifice himself by jumping into as many of them as possible. Once clear the other marines can fight while the sacrificial marine can hide behind until he recovers. If your webs are hard to spot, the marines dont stop and they can all become webbed before they know whats happening. If they know your webs are hard to spot that slows them down everywhere, webs or not. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I've found that if your skulks are informed where you as gorge are going and which hive you are going to build in and stress that protecting you will get a hive up quicker than otherwise, then they will sensibly choose to defend you and the hive from the marines. That way you can build the 3 or 4 res towers on route to the hive quickly and then get a hive underway asap, then and only then will I build any o/d chambers. it's slightly risky tactic but far more often than not it'll get a 2nd hive up before the enemy can break through the skulk screening force.
I find that building any o chambers before you have at least 2 new res towers is just an awful waste of resources and can be terminal to your team's chances of winning. two things suggest that not protecting res towers in the early game is the correct course,
1) most skulks will be salivating at the thought of a cheap and easy kill when they see a res tower under attack from a marine knowing that the silly sod will be knifing it and not watching out for a skulk attack. marines knowing this will more often than not ignore res towers for fear of attracting all skulks in the nearby area.
2) a res tower will pay for itself in ~70s, which means that it's often far more cost effective to build a res tower and not protect it than build 3 o chambers + d chamber to protect it and then have to wait far longer than 70s for the res tower to produce 78rps to pay for all the building.
if the skulks are intelligent and don't all kamikaze the marine start point repeatedly even when it's well defended but intelligently recon screen the important areas of the map then you can easily afford to go for 3-4 res towers and a quick hive as a gorge and not waste any rps on static defences.
.. kidding, kidding <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Babbler fury!
-d$