gorge health-spray kills amuse me no end esp. when the marine has charged into my webbing with his brand new HMG and to his obvious frustation gets taken out by the lone gorge. my personal favourite was when i had 2 marines get themselves webbed up in close formation and i took them both out simultaneously, was comical when those 2 healthspray kills come up on the hud.
laying down web trap : 5s
waiting for 2 reckless marines with their spanking new hardware freshly begged from busy commander: 25s
hmmm... I guess I'll have to try out going gorge at 13, but I always figured that having an extra skulk around at the beginning was more helpful to the team.
oh, and demerzel, you dont have to lay a trap of webs for them to walk into.... you can web them directly... When I have adrenaline I just web web healing spray, healing spray healing spray, web, web... etc.
HA/HMGs can do absolutely nothing about it... most of the time they just spam "OMG LAME"
A kill is a kill, though.... And who really needs ha/hmg to take out a lone gorge? omg lame
Kotau, I often do web them directly when I'm on the move or new to an area or it's towards the end of a game and I'm just having a laugh. I normally only lay down web traps when I'm securing a hive and want to avoid being surprised by a wandering marine or they're attempting to break through our defences. it's even more comical as you say to web a marine directly when (s)he thinks they've trapped and killed you, only for them to be webbed and then health-sprayed to death. ah the simple things in life <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
the shame of it is pretty embarassing for most, kinda like the spanner kill in TFC <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Spanner kills in TFC arent that shamefull (just more noticable), as the spanner does far more damage than the Crowbar (Axe) A crowbar kill is truly shamefull, and I used to specialise in offence scouting and take on HWG with my trusy Crowbar, Conc grens and some caltrops. Managed to kill at least 5 in my short lived career (I tried this over 2 months of TFC when I got bored)
Aaaaanyway, 1 gorge for 1-6 players, 2 gorges for 7-10 and 3 for 11+, in 1-6 gorge gets res up as fast as he can, in 7-10 gorges split up, head for diff hives (gives better chance that at least 1 will get a hive if one dies plus a good deal more res points as they go eaither way) and after 4 res towers up either call a gorge back to a new hive location and have him defense while one saves for hive, or have him go to start hive and defense while gorge defenses then gets hive, 11+ 2 gorges for early game, 1 extra after hive 2 is up, he can help build defense and forward offense.
At least thats my dieal solution, but a smart marine team would probably render all that useless, so maybe just 1 gorge, 2 is absolut max (Unless prepping for a gorgerush or need a battlegore up front)
<!--QuoteBegin--KboT+Dec 20 2002, 04:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KboT @ Dec 20 2002, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2-5 People = 1 Gorg 6-8 People = 2 Gorg 8+ People = 3 Gorg
I like those Numbers they work well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> why do you want more gorges when u have more players? i say the direct opposite. more gorges if you have less players. think about it. when you have more players, then more rp is spread out so less for the gorge. and if you have more gorges then less and less rp goes to them.
<!--QuoteBegin--The_Spectre+Dec 20 2002, 11:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The_Spectre @ Dec 20 2002, 11:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gorge at 13 versus gorge once you get to 33. This is actually an easy one, if you know how the alien resource system works. Consider these two things: 1. The gorge, at any time, gets <i>three times as much</i> resources as a skulk. 2. The first resource nozzle that is built after the starting one, <i>doubles</i> the teams income. If you think about that, you'll see that you'll want that first node up as soon as is possibly possible, and that the way to get that node up as soon as is possible, is for the gorge to evolve the instant he gets 13.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Finaly...an educated man, for those in the dark let me explain. Okay, you have a skulk. This skulk makes the initial rush and by the time he spawns back in he has 13 rp. He evolves into a gorge. Now that took three ticks to get three RP. He then waits and gets 3rp a tick, taking a total of 8 ticks to get a RT up. By this time the rest of the team has 21 RP (3 ticks to get gorge + 8 ticks to get RT). From here the gorge has 2 rp. Each tick he recieves a total of 4 RP, the rest of the team gets 2 RP. By the time the rest of the team (skulks) has reached 33 RP five more ticks have passed. In these five ticks the Gorge recieved 20 RP, for a total of 22 RP. He drops ANOTHER RT, 2 RT in all. So basicaly the time a gorge player waits to get 33 RP in order to drop a RT another one could have ALREADY dropped 2.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Your numbers are a bit off. Try these instead.
At start, the resources in an 8-player game is 10 + 10 * 8 * 0.23 * num_nodes resources per minute, or about 10 + 20/node a minute.
With no gorges, everyone is getting an equal 1/8 share of the 30 income, or about 3.75 res/minute. So, getting 23 more res will take about 6 minutes - at which time everyone is full, of course.
Now, lets compare that with one and two gorges.
In an 8-player game, one gorge will be getting 3/10 or 30% of the resources. With two gorges, they will be getting 3/12 or 25% of the resources each.
A single gorge will get 10 res/min, while two gorges will get 7.75 res/min. Saving up for first res node takes a single gorge 2.2 minutes while two gorges can build two after 2.9 minutes.
Single gorge: (times from end of evolve to gorge). 2.2 min: builds res tower, 0 res @ 10/min 2.7 min: res tower built, 5 res @16/min 3.8 min: builds res tower, 0 res@16/min 4.2 min: rew tower built, 8 res @ 23/min (total income 70 res/min)
Two gorges: 2.9 min: builds 2 res towers, 0 res@7.5/min 3.4 min: 2 res tower built, 4 res@18/min 4.4 min: builds 2 res towers, 0 res@18/min 4.9 min: 2 res towers built, 9 res@27/min (total income 110 res/min)
As can be seen, two gorges can get a higher total income earlier. At this point, the income for the gorges is enough to either build defenses, if the marines are good, or saving up for 2nd hive if the marines are not.
In conclusion, zero gorges are very bad, one or two gorges are ok. From a resource POV, two gorges are better, but only if you can spare his skulking services for five minutes.
Another intricate thing is that when the game starts, the resources for the first aliens to enter the team is usually higher than 10 - I'm not quite certain why, but I've had upto 20 res when the game started with 2 marines and just me on the alien team. Naturally, I went gorge directly - those extra resources saved a minute to first res tower.
If you start with just 10 res, it will take a minute before you have enough to go gorge.
<!--QuoteBegin--Pika-Cthulhu+Dec 21 2002, 11:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pika-Cthulhu @ Dec 21 2002, 11:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spanner kills in TFC arent that shamefull (just more noticable), as the spanner does far more damage than the Crowbar (Axe) A crowbar kill is truly shamefull, and I used to specialise in offence scouting and take on HWG with my trusy Crowbar, Conc grens and some caltrops. Managed to kill at least 5 in my short lived career (I tried this over 2 months of TFC when I got bored)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I prefer the quality kill that is the "caltrop kill". The shame of that icon appearing next to their dead name on the hud will make their families shun them forever <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
regarding 2 gorges, my only problem with having more than one gorge is that whilst I'm off slapping up res towers as quickly as I can, the other gorge is often wasting resources building o chambers. In the early game static defences are a poor choice and it's vitally important to get resources asap but so many will ruin their team's chances by building defences instead of getting the skulks to protect them instead.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Well, one good gorge is better than one good and one bad, that's for sure.
Too often I see gorges building early game defenses inside the hive - or rather, siege fodder.
that is a bit of a strange formula, (i noticed a minor error in it). if there is only a 4v4 game, once you would get the 3rd hive, your formula states that you should only have one gorg, (unless you mean them as two different formulas, that changes things.) just thought i would let you know.
<!--QuoteBegin--Pre[Dar]Satan+Dec 21 2002, 07:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pre[Dar]Satan @ Dec 21 2002, 07:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Error404:+Dec 21 2002, 12:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Error404: @ Dec 21 2002, 12:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'd rather that there be at least 3 gorges instead of the whole team going fade. Fades are completely useless against grenade launchers, lerks don't do much to protect from grenade splash. When the marines are using grenades, the more gorges to support fades the better in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not true, that fades are useles against grens. Grens take a while to explode unles they hit your right away, which is highly unlikely. When you have the third hive with the bile bomb, even 5 turrets can't win from you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Grenade launchers work great as defense, but not as offence imho <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Oppinions differ ofcourse<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In my experience, a marine with a GL can work quite well if a hmg/lmg marine is providing cover. But I digress.
My preference is to keep only one gorge until he has capped enough resource nodes and has more resources coming in than he can spend. This generally won't be the case until he has fully defended and built a second hive, and is on his way back to the first hive to build defenses there. During his trek back to the spawn hive, if the team has enough resource nodes that his resources hit 100, then at that point it would be good to have a second gorge to build static defenses and/or save for the third hive if it's empty. (Not likely unless you're up against newbie marines.)
I usually play gorge, and this is how my game generally progresses:
I evolve to gorge as soon as I hit 13 RP, since gorges get triple the resources per tick than the other alien classes. I then move to the closest open node, hide in the shadows until I have 22 RP, then build a tower. I help the tower to build while I wait for 22 RP again. Once the first new tower is built, I begin moving to the next open node. I always help the first node build to 100% before I move. This allows me to be gaining resource points from the new node while I'm moving to the next node, which is generally further out into the map, which is when I am most vulnerable to attack.
I repeat this until we have a total of 3 or 4 nodes (the original node plus 2 or 3 new ones, depending on the map.) I then move to the second hive. I choose the second hive based on reports from my teammates as to where the marines are. Obviously, I go to the one that's most likely not being harassed. I then decide whether I need to build defenses first, then the hive, or build the hive first, then defenses. I decide based on whether or not I have skulk escorts. If I do, I build the hive first. If I don't, I build the defenses first. Usually I'm on my own, since it's best for the skulks to be harassing the marines as much as possible during this time. Also, while capping the resource nodes, if it's convenient, I will drop a defense tower or two at a key location, most likely the spawn hive (since they *could* save the hive from a marine rush) ... this way my team can get carapace early on. I only do this if it's convenient however. The main priority is getting the resource towers up.
After I build the second hive, and I get 22 RP again, I build the resource tower at the new hive. At this point, resources are pouring in faster than I can move to new areas and build defenses, so this is the time to add a second gorge. The second gorge can then build defenses in key locations, or even save for a third hive if we truly have the upper hand. Once both gorges have all 3 hives and have secured them, then it's time for that second gorge to go on the offensive with web, babblers and healing to back up the fades. The first gorge can focus on rebuilding defenses that have been lost to siege attacks, or he can build forward defenses for his fades and onos' to fall back to.
Hrm ... this post started out with a paragraph about when to go gorge, and evolved into a strategy outline. Heh. Sorry. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well said Bytor, right on the money! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
laying down web trap : 5s
waiting for 2 reckless marines with their spanking new hardware freshly begged from busy commander: 25s
time to kill them both : 6s
job satisfaction: priceless.
I guess I'll have to try out going gorge at 13, but I always figured that having an extra skulk around at the beginning was more helpful to the team.
MMZ>Torak - BattleGorge Extrodinaire!
HA/HMGs can do absolutely nothing about it... most of the time they just spam "OMG LAME"
A kill is a kill, though....
And who really needs ha/hmg to take out a lone gorge?
omg lame
the shame of it is pretty embarassing for most, kinda like the spanner kill in TFC <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Aaaaanyway, 1 gorge for 1-6 players, 2 gorges for 7-10 and 3 for 11+, in 1-6 gorge gets res up as fast as he can, in 7-10 gorges split up, head for diff hives (gives better chance that at least 1 will get a hive if one dies plus a good deal more res points as they go eaither way) and after 4 res towers up either call a gorge back to a new hive location and have him defense while one saves for hive, or have him go to start hive and defense while gorge defenses then gets hive, 11+ 2 gorges for early game, 1 extra after hive 2 is up, he can help build defense and forward offense.
At least thats my dieal solution, but a smart marine team would probably render all that useless, so maybe just 1 gorge, 2 is absolut max (Unless prepping for a gorgerush or need a battlegore up front)
and cens & mov tower when accessible.
1 gorge for ressource hunting, and defence of them with web area in front of offensive towers , just round corners
6-8 People = 2 Gorg
8+ People = 3 Gorg
I like those Numbers they work well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why do you want more gorges when u have more players? i say the direct opposite. more gorges if you have less players. think about it. when you have more players, then more rp is spread out so less for the gorge. and if you have more gorges then less and less rp goes to them.
1. The gorge, at any time, gets <i>three times as much</i> resources as a skulk.
2. The first resource nozzle that is built after the starting one, <i>doubles</i> the teams income.
If you think about that, you'll see that you'll want that first node up as soon as is possibly possible, and that the way to get that node up as soon as is possible, is for the gorge to evolve the instant he gets 13.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Finaly...an educated man, for those in the dark let me explain. Okay, you have a skulk. This skulk makes the initial rush and by the time he spawns back in he has 13 rp. He evolves into a gorge. Now that took three ticks to get three RP. He then waits and gets 3rp a tick, taking a total of 8 ticks to get a RT up. By this time the rest of the team has 21 RP (3 ticks to get gorge + 8 ticks to get RT). From here the gorge has 2 rp. Each tick he recieves a total of 4 RP, the rest of the team gets 2 RP. By the time the rest of the team (skulks) has reached 33 RP five more ticks have passed. In these five ticks the Gorge recieved 20 RP, for a total of 22 RP. He drops ANOTHER RT, 2 RT in all. So basicaly the time a gorge player waits to get 33 RP in order to drop a RT another one could have ALREADY dropped 2.
At start, the resources in an 8-player game is 10 + 10 * 8 * 0.23 * num_nodes resources per minute, or about 10 + 20/node a minute.
With no gorges, everyone is getting an equal 1/8 share of the 30 income, or about 3.75 res/minute. So, getting 23 more res will take about 6 minutes - at which time everyone is full, of course.
Now, lets compare that with one and two gorges.
In an 8-player game, one gorge will be getting 3/10 or 30% of the resources. With two gorges, they will be getting 3/12 or 25% of the resources each.
A single gorge will get 10 res/min, while two gorges will get 7.75 res/min. Saving up for first res node takes a single gorge 2.2 minutes while two gorges can build two after 2.9 minutes.
Single gorge: (times from end of evolve to gorge).
2.2 min: builds res tower, 0 res @ 10/min
2.7 min: res tower built, 5 res @16/min
3.8 min: builds res tower, 0 res@16/min
4.2 min: rew tower built, 8 res @ 23/min (total income 70 res/min)
Two gorges:
2.9 min: builds 2 res towers, 0 res@7.5/min
3.4 min: 2 res tower built, 4 res@18/min
4.4 min: builds 2 res towers, 0 res@18/min
4.9 min: 2 res towers built, 9 res@27/min (total income 110 res/min)
As can be seen, two gorges can get a higher total income earlier. At this point, the income for the gorges is enough to either build defenses, if the marines are good, or saving up for 2nd hive if the marines are not.
In conclusion, zero gorges are very bad, one or two gorges are ok. From a resource POV, two gorges are better, but only if you can spare his skulking services for five minutes.
Another intricate thing is that when the game starts, the resources for the first aliens to enter the team is usually higher than 10 - I'm not quite certain why, but I've had upto 20 res when the game started with 2 marines and just me on the alien team. Naturally, I went gorge directly - those extra resources saved a minute to first res tower.
If you start with just 10 res, it will take a minute before you have enough to go gorge.
I prefer the quality kill that is the "caltrop kill". The shame of that icon appearing next to their dead name on the hud will make their families shun them forever <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
regarding 2 gorges, my only problem with having more than one gorge is that whilst I'm off slapping up res towers as quickly as I can, the other gorge is often wasting resources building o chambers. In the early game static defences are a poor choice and it's vitally important to get resources asap but so many will ruin their team's chances by building defences instead of getting the skulks to protect them instead.
Too often I see gorges building early game defenses inside the hive - or rather, siege fodder.
That's not true, that fades are useles against grens. Grens take a while to explode unles they hit your right away, which is highly unlikely. When you have the third hive with the bile bomb, even 5 turrets can't win from you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Grenade launchers work great as defense, but not as offence imho <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Oppinions differ ofcourse<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my experience, a marine with a GL can work quite well if a hmg/lmg marine is providing cover. But I digress.
I usually play gorge, and this is how my game generally progresses:
I evolve to gorge as soon as I hit 13 RP, since gorges get triple the resources per tick than the other alien classes. I then move to the closest open node, hide in the shadows until I have 22 RP, then build a tower. I help the tower to build while I wait for 22 RP again. Once the first new tower is built, I begin moving to the next open node. I always help the first node build to 100% before I move. This allows me to be gaining resource points from the new node while I'm moving to the next node, which is generally further out into the map, which is when I am most vulnerable to attack.
I repeat this until we have a total of 3 or 4 nodes (the original node plus 2 or 3 new ones, depending on the map.) I then move to the second hive. I choose the second hive based on reports from my teammates as to where the marines are. Obviously, I go to the one that's most likely not being harassed. I then decide whether I need to build defenses first, then the hive, or build the hive first, then defenses. I decide based on whether or not I have skulk escorts. If I do, I build the hive first. If I don't, I build the defenses first. Usually I'm on my own, since it's best for the skulks to be harassing the marines as much as possible during this time. Also, while capping the resource nodes, if it's convenient, I will drop a defense tower or two at a key location, most likely the spawn hive (since they *could* save the hive from a marine rush) ... this way my team can get carapace early on. I only do this if it's convenient however. The main priority is getting the resource towers up.
After I build the second hive, and I get 22 RP again, I build the resource tower at the new hive. At this point, resources are pouring in faster than I can move to new areas and build defenses, so this is the time to add a second gorge. The second gorge can then build defenses in key locations, or even save for a third hive if we truly have the upper hand. Once both gorges have all 3 hives and have secured them, then it's time for that second gorge to go on the offensive with web, babblers and healing to back up the fades. The first gorge can focus on rebuilding defenses that have been lost to siege attacks, or he can build forward defenses for his fades and onos' to fall back to.
Hrm ... this post started out with a paragraph about when to go gorge, and evolved into a strategy outline. Heh. Sorry. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->