A reason RTS games don't strip upgrades on structure loss.
Oversight99
Join Date: 2008-01-05 Member: 63343Members
Join Date: 2008-01-05 Member: 63343Members
Just wanted to throw this out there. I certainly understand everyone that says losing a structure should lose the team their upgrades. I understand that, in theory, this will make a team want to protect their upgrade structures more (In actuality, pug servers will always have a problem with this). I also understand that this makes the attacking team feel good to have done some "real" damage. But, truth is, there is a very good reason that RTS games don't strip upgrades that have been purchased. It is really pretty simple: It becomes impossible to come back from a small defeat.
Right now, if one side gets lucky and wins a major engagement, they have pretty much won the game. When upgrades are lost, the game is over. Coming back is nearly impossible. That isn't fun.
I'm thinking, this might be one of those balance concerns that isn't an issue with organized teams, but is a huge issue with pug servers and a lower level of play. It's easy to see that an organized team will be able to defend. However, as always, my concern is for the game's success. If pug servers aren't fun because one mistake will lose you the game, the game won't be all that successful.
(Maybe this could be fixed with improved UI for aliens and marines to encourage them to defend an area?)
Right now, if one side gets lucky and wins a major engagement, they have pretty much won the game. When upgrades are lost, the game is over. Coming back is nearly impossible. That isn't fun.
I'm thinking, this might be one of those balance concerns that isn't an issue with organized teams, but is a huge issue with pug servers and a lower level of play. It's easy to see that an organized team will be able to defend. However, as always, my concern is for the game's success. If pug servers aren't fun because one mistake will lose you the game, the game won't be all that successful.
(Maybe this could be fixed with improved UI for aliens and marines to encourage them to defend an area?)
Comments
Tactically it simulates a real aspect of war which is that some structures are battle critical, and the loss of them can negatively impact the frontlines immediately. Things like communications.
I've played most of the well balanced and truly competitive games, I can't think of any that make you re-research upgrades if you lost their structure. Units can't be built in some cases, but when you re-build the structure you can build the units again.
In any case, it is more of an issue of what is fun. Upgrades being stripped puts the loser of one conflict in big trouble. Sure, it is realistic, but it isn't fun.
I do wish we kept the upgrades. As a alien commander its important to keep the hives up - it allows me to build hive specific structures like crags, and upgrades like healing bed or bacterial receptors are important. I feel as though those should be enough of an incentive to defend the hive.
Suddenly losing things like leap just makes the game pointless at that point. I'm all for keeping the upgrades prerequisites as two hives, but let us keep the upgrades after they are researched.
Tier 2 upgrades are basically essential past a few minutes in the game, losing them ends the game.
Vortex should <u><b>not</b></u> disable upgrades. Vortex as a whole needs a major revamp, but that would be a good first step. :/
There might be something to letting aliens keep what they have researched (perhaps in a slightly crappier form, or just on the players that have been alive since they have 2 hives) after they get knocked down to 1 hive.
@zombiemonkey This is not NS1, making snarky comments of that nature just makes you look foolish.
Let's just ditch it and bring back acid rockets.
nooo.. acid rocket were a boing spam-fest. Do not want.
And vortex is full of excitement and fun?
They are talking about the "temporary" loss of augment abilitys like leap, blink, when a second hive goes down. Although it is temporary, you have to build another hive first, which often makes it rather permenant .
Sentries are rubbish now so acid rocket isn't necessary. Votex at least has some tactical depth in you can disable structures and their abilities. Its no fun when used on players though.
It isn't sentries that I would use acid rockets on, it's grouped up shotgun marines. You know, giving the anti-marine lifeform more tools to do what they are suppose to do? Like killing marines. I haven't had one situation where I've been like "Thank god I had vortex". I've actually had moments where I'm flipping desks because idiot fades vortexing ###### I was trying to destroy. Vortex is better gone.
What we need are vortex rockets then :)
Only if they explode when the duration ends.
If upgrades persisted after the structures demise then what is the point to defending it? Marines could just recycle an A3/W3 arms lab since it isnt needed to have upgrades online.
This mechanic is also a means to an end. If you take out the structure you expect to see an immediate result. Aliens losing hives should as i said be a big deal. Same goes for marines and their structures. Be glad you dont have to re-research anything (minus the AA due to it being an upgrade to a building).
In any case, it is more of an issue of what is fun. Upgrades being stripped puts the loser of one conflict in big trouble. Sure, it is realistic, but it isn't fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
company of heros, dawn of war, dawn of war 2, supreme commander,.......... list goes on
Right now, there is no sense in attacking the arms lab. They can rebuild it faster than you can destroy it.
Aliens are really f...ed when they lose a hive. Because you can't build them everywhere. But marines can just rebuild their ArmsLab where they want... Not that they have to, because they don't lose their main-base so easily like aliens can lose a hive.
Right now, there is no sense in attacking the arms lab. They can rebuild it faster than you can destroy it.
Aliens are really f...ed when they lose a hive. Because you can't build them everywhere. But marines can just rebuild their ArmsLab where they want... Not that they have to, because they don't lose their main-base so easily like aliens can lose a hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm afraid that would be too much of a nerf. Quite a lot of time and resources go into those upgrades. Having it be cheaper/faster after you have first researched it would be non-intuitive, thus unlikely to make it into the game.
I totally agree with you. Just make the count of how many res it costs!
Arms lab:
20*2 + 30*2 + 40*2 = 180 res + the cost of the arms lab (which is not taken into account below)
I can't remember if it is 7 or 8 seconds for a RT to get res, if 8: 24 minutes for 1 RT, 12 minutes for 2 RTs, 8 minutes for 3 RTs, 6 minutes for 4 RTs... So during minimum 6 minutes you can't drop any scans and supplies. This is just not needed and totally excessive! The actual system is intuitive and doesn't require any changes imo.
I can't even imagine how many res cost an armory where you upgrade everything...
But if you tell me Aliens have to re-upgrade their tech-buildings, look at the cost :) and it is made to be intuitive: a living thing can't change its nature and if the hive/shell/... dies, the lifeform dies with it. Furthermore, the cost of the upgrade is fair and imo is consistent to each side of the game, as it wants to be asymetric!
Why not make it research in 25% of the time and at no cost once it has been originally researched?
So it still will have an impact but not a totally crippling one or one dependant on economy (outside of replacement building costs).
So it still will have an impact but not a totally crippling one or one dependant on economy (outside of replacement building costs).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that would just make things tedious. The comm has to rebuild the lab, then keep track of and click the upgrades again three times. Beside that, it would be counter intuitive, as I mentioned earlier.
Personally, I think that marines already lose enough when the arms lab is down. The Arms lab can be used as a prerequisite for some other things, in order to make its loss more noticable. For instance JP's and Exo's. While the lab is down, marines won't get upgrades and can't buy certain gear. It's just a quick-and-dirty example, but I think that'd work better than having to re-research all the upgrades.
That way the marines actually have to defend two locations instead of one, like aliens. And aliens could take out the protolab strategically, instead of it being buried in marine start (where if you can kill the proto you could kill anything else and win the game).
Perhaps a restore disk is created that can be clicked so its a single click to restore not multiple?
<!--quoteo(post=1951901:date=Jul 16 2012, 08:37 PM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Jul 16 2012, 08:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I think that marines already lose enough when the arms lab is down. The Arms lab can be used as a prerequisite for some other things, in order to make its loss more noticable. For instance JP's and Exo's. While the lab is down, marines won't get upgrades and can't buy certain gear. It's just a quick-and-dirty example, but I think that'd work better than having to re-research all the upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Something needs to change as losing an stuff never seems to hurt as a marine as much as it does an alien.
Aliens are penalised for losing their chambers, marines should be a hell of a lot more equally punished than they currently are.
Aliens are penalised for losing their chambers, marines should be a hell of a lot more equally punished than they currently are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. That was my intention with the (too easy thought of) idea I posted before.
There is no sense in attacking anything else than the power node or the CC as alien. Maybe the obs, but this is also situational because "power node > obs". If aliens would be able to strip upgrades from the marines effectively, it would add a whole lot of tactical game play and decrease the appearance of marine-turtle-stalemates.
A good step has been taken in creating the need of a second CC for jetpacks, but I think this isn't enough. If you really don't want to create the need of re-researching the upgrades from the arms lab, than maybe decrease the hit-points of it? A skulk in a marine base hasn't enough time to kill the CC in the most cases, but he also hasn't enough time to cause any damage in T-Res or tactical advantage. If you could deny upgrades for marines easier (maybe with reduced costs of the arms lab) it could be more fun.
A nice tweak to the current system of losing, specifically, an arms lab, is that you keep all your upgrades until you die (Weapons and armor upgrades.) IIRC, aliens keep their mutations, such as regeneration and silence, until they die, even if the structure or hive supporting them is gone.