<!--quoteo(post=1952850:date=Jul 20 2012, 10:34 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jul 20 2012, 10:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I largely think this is one of the major areas of conflict between the FPS and RTS portions of the game. FPS's generally tend to allow comebacks in even the most hopeless of situations (e.g. ninjaing a flag in a CTF gamemode), but RTS's favor allowing early game advantages to snowball into larger advantages towards the late-game (e.g. getting more crystal/vespene in SC1/2 leads to more units/tech and, therefore, more crystal/vespene, etc). The trade-off is that many RTS players simply resign once they've become the clear loser.
I think how FPS/RTS games deals with this conflict will help define the genre. Personally, my view is that: - Any advantage or disadvantage should be as gradual as possible, such that it takes several and consistent advantages or disadvantages before the games outcome is determined - There is an effective mechanism for the losing team to resign and for the game to end at once, when it becomes clear that they have no path to victory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^QFT!
If the researched tech is gone when the building is destroyed and has to be re-researched, it will lead to more comebacks. If your second hive just got down, you may be able to gather all aliens to attack the ArmsLab and finally make Skulks able to turn the tide. This allows for much more failures and therefor comebacks. Maybe the numbers for cost, research-duration and building-hp have to be tweaked. But if done right, this could solve one of the biggest problems of NS2: predictable game-outcomes.
Also the idea of a gorge-building the teleports aliens between two points is really cool. It tightens the bond between the gorge and other aliens and could create ninja tactics. Building one at the hive and the other one hidden near the enemy...
About comebacks in RTS games: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZB5Ar0YT6M" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZB5Ar0YT6M</a>
The gorge really need something to make it less boring, look at the last NS2HD video, and see how your blood pressure goes down when he's gorging : <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB8SzrMiCUA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB8SzrMiCUA</a>
Maybe it's a good class to play after lunch, while digesting :)
<!--quoteo(post=1953204:date=Jul 23 2012, 01:14 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 23 2012, 01:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That sounds like what I explained above.
What you should have done, is to scout the marine base for advanced armory, realized that a gl push was possible, maybe build some whips, then have someone scouting the push path constantly, and get the team ready to ambush when the push was coming.
If you've done all that and still lost the hive maybe there is a problem with gl, otherwise it just look like a valid and desirable strategy.
For the jetpacks I think the lerk should be a decent counter, it's cheap and fly pretty well. The problem is that dot bite is wonky and he has no ranged attack on tier 1. Solution: fix bite and switch spikes and bite tier, or make spores ranged again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know this situation could have been handled, but with nano construct etc, it just goes really fast. Also, when 9 marines shoot grens at the hive, it just dies in secs. Another thing, which is also what i didn't like about the way the game went, is that there was absolutely no skill involved in deciding the game, and if you ask me, not a lot of tactics either. I mean having one sneaky marine build a pg in less than a sec, beaconing and advising all to shoot the hive isn't such a huge strategic decision. It also costs the marines nothing. One pg, one nano construct and a jp marine at most (could be a vanilla marine as well). So: no risk -> huge reward (win game)
I'm overall ok with sneaky pgs punishing the aliens. It was the same in NS1 and worked well (was fun). It's just a little fast atm and cripples aliens too hard. Also, in NS1 aliens where able to move to the attacked hive, if they were for example defending their second or third hive, or had the standard mc opening. Which gave some balance in terms of strategic options. Our game went like this: Almost all marines pressure crushing, almost all aliens defend crushing. One marine sneaks in a pg in ore. Marine Comm beacons, Alien Comm says go to ore fast. Before anyone could be there, the hive was down.
But that's not the point. The point is, that afterwards, all lifeforms are useless. I actually played a game yesterday, where a lerk bit me several times, before i was able to get to an armory, and i wasn't even close to dying. I didn't hit him with the first shots, and realized he didn't do a lot of damage, so i laughed and ran away, while he still bit me, to see how much damage he does (he hit me at least 6 times / i was armor 3). So lerks can't counter JPs, especially not, if the comm medpacks/nanoshields. They also die in 1-2 sg shots, so... This imo is the biggest problem. I think fades should be the JP hunters, but without blink they can't do anything.
You kind of feel like a hiveless fade in NS1, if you're on one hive in NS2... I like the shadow step, but you need to be able to gain height if you look up or something, because otherwise it's just totally pointless. I mean what's the point? You spend 50 res, defend one hive, the other hive gets rushed, and you can basically de-evolve to skulk...
It is a valid point that the aliens are sorely missing the ability to jump between hives. The lack of this ability may have made sense back before anything was actually tied to the hives, but now that they are dependant on two and three hives to retain combat power it is more essential that they have that ability returned.
At the very least they should make the shift function like the movement chambers, letting you travel between them.
<!--quoteo(post=1953423:date=Jul 24 2012, 04:01 PM:name=Rise)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rise @ Jul 24 2012, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953423"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is a valid point that the aliens are sorely missing the ability to jump between hives. The lack of this ability may have made sense back before anything was actually tied to the hives, but now that they are dependant on two and three hives to retain combat power it is more essential that they have that ability returned.
At the very least they should make the shift function like the movement chambers, letting you travel between them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, but that would lead to needing the hives to have a teleport function, so there'd be variety in alien strategy. Like in NS1, where they added this function, so teams could use def and sens chambers as their first chambers as well. I'd actually like the gorge to have the ability to create some kind of fast travel network, so the function is not tied to a specific hive upgrade. Maybe make it tier two, so it's not too easy to defend the first hive expansion? Or a tier one research-able upgrade, that might delay the second hive if you choose to get it?
I think Schimmel made a small mod with a basic variant of this, and it also looked cool already.
<!--quoteo(post=1953436:date=Jul 24 2012, 05:34 PM:name=3del!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (3del! @ Jul 24 2012, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Schimmel made a small mod with a basic variant of this, and it also looked cool already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, I have seen this mod too. It's like a hole in the ground on infestation. Aliens can use it like a teleporter. I think this could benefit gorges allot. (Should be only placeable on infestation.)
Right now once a team loses tec the comm rages and sells everything ending the game quick. As it stands at the moment the epic endgame fights have gone.
<!--quoteo(post=1953711:date=Jul 26 2012, 01:58 AM:name=Landswimmer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Landswimmer @ Jul 26 2012, 01:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree losing tech just because a structure died is stupid. Especially for the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How else are you supposed to snipe tech? Now with the case of hive tech, i think it might be nice to have blink, leap etc. tied to their own chambers that unlock after a new hive is completed. You dont lose them if hive dies, but you cant drop new ones if the marines kill the chambers aswell until a new hive is up. Just like all the evolutions(cara,regen,cele, etc.). Might be even harsher tho when someone snipes blink chamber when youre a fade in the middle of a fight. Would make getting the second hive up as important as it is now, but not quite so cripling if you lose it.
<!--quoteo(post=1952738:date=Jul 20 2012, 02:52 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 20 2012, 02:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shouldn't there always been *some* form or method of a sneaky comeback? Not saying it should be easy or without risk.. but surprise PGs are such a staple of NS tactics..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For this to happen, the hivesight for marines on infestation would need to be removed..
<!--quoteo(post=1952762:date=Jul 20 2012, 08:49 AM:name=hapro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hapro @ Jul 20 2012, 08:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everyone knows the best part of Counterstrike is making clutch 1v5s with only a deagle and 10 people spectating you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In CS there are dynamic hitboxes though......... my first post on this website was about incorperating dynamic hitboxes and it's 50/50 for people liking/disliking dynamic hitboxes.. and I think the people that don't like the idea just don't understand that a headshot doesn't HAVE TO mean "+300%" damage.. it can be tiny amounts that simply reward people for aiming well...
On topic: Not sure what I think about this.. it would merge the NS_ + CO_ type modes...... like in CO_ you wouldn't lose your upgrades. *Shrug* Hive travel is definitely needed though either way.. when a new hive is put up the marines could have a pg right around the corner and just warp in and -50 res for the aliens ON TOP of losing the hive in the first place..... I find this sets them back a lot more than the marines, whose structures are less pricey.
Thanks for the discussion guys. I've read here and thought about this and plan on making the following changes in response:
- When aliens lose evolutions due to losing a Shell (Regeneration) or a Hive (Blink), they keep that ability until they die. - When a structure is Vortexed, the marines are not treated as having the it when they spawn or for tech tree requirements (unless they have another one that isn't Vortexed) of course. So a marine with Armor1 won't lose it if their only ArmsLab is Vortexed, but if a marine spawns during this time, they don't have that armor. When the ArmsLab comes out of the Vortex, they don't get that armor either (only on research complete).
<!--quoteo(post=1954110:date=Jul 26 2012, 07:19 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 26 2012, 07:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When the ArmsLab comes out of the Vortex, they don't get that armor either (only on research complete).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
is this due to a technical limitation? what if the marines build a new armslab while one is vortex'd, do the marines get their armor/weapon upgrades back? seems like it would be simpler and more intuitive for the upgrades to reappear.
The vortex thing sounds like a mistake to be honest. Sure sucks to be one of those marines who spawns at a randomly bad time. Either they never notice and are confused at why they got owned that life, possibly wasting a very expensive loadout, or they just kill themselves to get the upgrades back(and hope it doesn't happen again). Marines should never have to go an entire life without upgrades, that's even harsher than it was before.
As for aliens, personally I'm fine with the upgrades sticking since those structures are very vulnerable and it's hard to tell when you've lost one. I think the hive dying should strip players of their hive-based abilities though, because a Fade/Onos could be alive for a very long time and would be completely unaffected by the loss of the hive which feels unfair for the marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1954110:date=Jul 26 2012, 04:19 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 26 2012, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- When aliens lose evolutions due to losing a Shell (Regeneration) or a Hive (Blink), they keep that ability until they die. - When a structure is Vortexed, the marines are not treated as having the it when they spawn or for tech tree requirements (unless they have another one that isn't Vortexed) of course. So a marine with Armor1 won't lose it if their only ArmsLab is Vortexed, but if a marine spawns during this time, they don't have that armor. When the ArmsLab comes out of the Vortex, they don't get that armor either (only on research complete).
I hope this pleases at least some of you...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Point 1: I like it! Bit weird to think of it in terms of a skulk "forgetting to leap", so its good that doesn't happen anymore.
Point 2: This seems not very intuitive, and gives a player incentive to "kill" in console and respawn, which isnt good. i.e. if I spawn in when we have Armor3/Weaps 3 and dont get it, might as well just respawn immediately.
<!--quoteo(post=1954120:date=Jul 26 2012, 05:45 PM:name=Ryne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryne @ Jul 26 2012, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Point 2: This seems not very intuitive, and gives a player incentive to "kill" in console and respawn, which isnt good. i.e. if I spawn in when we have Armor3/Weaps 3 and dont get it, might as well just respawn immediately.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly what I was thinking- it's random and frustrating if you're that unfortunate marine. That, or just go rambo and try to do a little damage before I die. But there's no way I would buy even a 5pres welder without having my upgrades.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Disagree with both of those changes.
The first trivializes hive losses (again) and disincentivizes aggressive marine play to "snipe" alien upgrade buildings, which should be a viable tactic.
The second is entirely random, unfair and confusing for the affected marines.
I've ignored this thread on purpose, assuming that the frankly terrible suggestions in here would be ignored, but I guess that was a mistake. Hope it isn't too late.
<!--quoteo(post=1954135:date=Jul 26 2012, 05:20 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 26 2012, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Disagree with both of those changes.
The first trivializes hive losses (again) and disincentivizes aggressive marine play to "snipe" alien upgrade buildings, which should be a viable tactic.
The second is entirely random, unfair and confusing for the affected marines.
I've ignored this thread on purpose, assuming that the frankly terrible suggestions in here would be ignored, but I guess that was a mistake. Hope it isn't too late.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does not trivalize it as any new spawning alien loses upgrades/abilities. Its just "on the field" aliens who don't lose out.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Those "on the field" aliens can be a skilled fade with blink who may last the rest of the game like that..
worried about scenarios<i> where you can no longer base your tactics on what you've done to the enemy.</i> JPs that expect no more blink or leap suddenly cant rely on this for the remainder of the game..
<b>This sort of breaks the design goal of being able to read your opponent's hand of cards and react appropriately to them, doesn't it?</b> Quite unintuitive as you'll have players playing based on a set of rules that aren't actually going to be consistent, or having expectations based on said rules that don't follow through..
I wonder if the frustration will swing from the side of abruptly losing your ability as an alien... to the side of a marine who thought that aliens didnt have blink anymore.. and thus didnt buy that shotgun or jp etc.. because the rest of the team didn't have those tier 2 abilities anymore for 10 minutes?
The armslab change definitely sounds bad, just going to see lots of suicide marines if they get unlucky spawn. It is working just fine right now. You need to be able to snipe it down to indirectly damage the marines on the field.
Carapace shells etc. evolution chambers need to be snipeable. You need to be able to damage the lifeforms indirectly by sniping the evolutions. The way it is with them now is perfect.
I can actually agree with the hive tech change. Might get nice situations where marines have jetpacks and one fade with blink remains, being pretty much the only hope for the aliens to comeback.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The first trivializes hive losses (again) and disincentivizes aggressive marine play to "snipe" alien upgrade buildings, which should be a viable tactic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How exactly does it disincentivize aggressive marine play? I'm sorry but that's just plain nonsense. Losing shells still forces the enemy commander to sink quite a bit of T.res in unlocking them again. And it's something that will be almost immediately felt by skulks and other less 'durable' lifeforms. Losing a hive is still very much a big deal, but at least it doesn't immediately destroy ANY potential for aliens to make a comeback. (especially if Jetpacks are in play) The fact that newly spawned skulks won't have leap any more is already a BIG deal for aliens.
Will losing the arms lab still immediately make marines lose upgrades? Because if it does, it does bring in the question of balance. Should marines lose their upgrades immediately when they lose the arms lab when aliens don't lose their upgrades when they lose the shell/veil/shift? One middle ground solution to this could be to keep losing shells/veil/shift make you lose upgrades immediately but NOT have hive loss lose you the ability before death. This would probably be the best solution for balance, since it puts both factions on par in terms of upgrade losses and 'second tier' tech. (Marines only lose the ability to buy jetpacks, they don't lose existing ones, aliens only lose the abilities on newly spawned lifeforms)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This sort of breaks the design goal of being able to read your opponent's hand of cards and react appropriately to them, doesn't it? Quite unintuitive as you'll have players playing based on a set of rules that aren't actually going to be consistent, or having expectations based on said rules that don't follow through..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We're not playing with 5 year olds, are we? I think the average gamer is more than competent enough to be able to differentiate the skill set of pesky lifeforms that have been in play prior to hive loss and ones that have just showed up. If anything, it will be up the ante for players to try and kill specific players on the enemy team, to make sure they lose their second tier abilities as well.
Really love this change, Charlie!
I'm a little on the fence in regards to the second one. Like other people have pointed out, it pretty much promotes killing yourself in console and respawning to get full upgrades back. Probably not the best idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1954239:date=Jul 27 2012, 12:51 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 27 2012, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How exactly does it disincentivize aggressive marine play? I'm sorry but that's just plain nonsense. Losing shells still forces the enemy commander to sink quite a bit of T.res in unlocking them again. And it's something that will be almost immediately felt by skulks and other less 'durable' lifeforms. Losing a hive is still very much a big deal, but at least it doesn't immediately destroy ANY potential for aliens to make a comeback. (especially if Jetpacks are in play) The fact that newly spawned skulks won't have leap any more is already a BIG deal for aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The evolution upgrades really should strip intantly for everyone upon losing the upgrade structure, just like with the armslab. It doesnt really matter when one skulk cant evolve carapace, but 7 fades still have it even though you sniped the chamber down. You send marines to go into the hiveroom to sacrifice themselves while killing an evolve chamber to give you an edge over the fades for a short while. With this change it wont make any difference.
Same thing with aliens. You send some skulks into the base to kill the armslab, and then try to crush the marines outpost with a big assault. If the upgrades dont strip, you cant do that either. These changes just take away viable strategies.
<!--quoteo(post=1954222:date=Jul 27 2012, 03:09 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 27 2012, 03:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The armslab change definitely sounds bad, just going to see lots of suicide marines if they get unlucky spawn. It is working just fine right now. You need to be able to snipe it down to indirectly damage the marines on the field.
Carapace shells etc. evolution chambers need to be snipeable. You need to be able to damage the lifeforms indirectly by sniping the evolutions. The way it is with them now is perfect.
I can actually agree with the hive tech change. Might get nice situations where marines have jetpacks and one fade with blink remains, being pretty much the only hope for the aliens to comeback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree with this, the way I see it the hive/ability thing will work- Marines don't lose their JP/exo when they lose their 2nd CC so I can sort of draw parallels to a fade not losing his blink if the 2nd hive goes down. The armslab/chamber upgrades seem like they should be different and more instantaneous though.
On another note I don't think the armslab upgrades (or any marine macro tech) should be affected in any way by Vortex. That's part of the reason why Vortex is so incredibly imbalanced on live builds right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1954110:date=Jul 27 2012, 01:19 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 27 2012, 01:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for the discussion guys. I've read here and thought about this and plan on making the following changes in response:
- When aliens lose evolutions due to losing a Shell (Regeneration) or a Hive (Blink), they keep that ability until they die. - When a structure is Vortexed, the marines are not treated as having the it when they spawn or for tech tree requirements (unless they have another one that isn't Vortexed) of course. So a marine with Armor1 won't lose it if their only ArmsLab is Vortexed, but if a marine spawns during this time, they don't have that armor. When the ArmsLab comes out of the Vortex, they don't get that armor either (only on research complete).
I hope this pleases at least some of you...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this changes. It's an easy concept. You get the upgrades that were ready when you spawned / evolved. Period. This is KISS.
If a fade vortexes your arms lab, than because there is a rush on your mainbase going on. You sure can type kill in console. But this will only speed up your loss of the main base. No fade would possibly spend much time in vortexing an arms lab just to decrease the upgrades of the marines that spawned in this 5 seconds. A fade harassing the marine base like this will never be an effective fade.
Also if you kill a hive, you should know how many fades are out there and they will have blink until you kill them. I see no problem there.
<!--quoteo(post=1954260:date=Jul 27 2012, 01:38 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 27 2012, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No fade would possibly spend much time in vortexing an arms lab just to decrease the upgrades of the marines that spawned in this 5 seconds. A fade harassing the marine base like this will never be an effective fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only that they do it constantly right now, and it very much has the ability to destroy the marines. if you can get a couple of vortex fades to work together, you can shutdown the entire base with vortex. Tell me how is that not effective?
<!--quoteo(post=1954110:date=Jul 27 2012, 01:19 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 27 2012, 01:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- When aliens lose evolutions due to losing a Shell (Regeneration) or a Hive (Blink), they keep that ability until they die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then there really isn't a strong incentive for marines to target upgrade buildings anymore. I feel like aliens deserve to be penalized severely if they can't protect their most important structures. If this change is implemented then the aliens on the field might not even notice if upgrade structures are killed cause the commander can just make new ones before they die. It would trivialize losing structures for the aliens. Of course it's frustrating to lose upgrades structures, but it always the aliens own fault and I don't think this change would be fair for the marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1954110:date=Jul 27 2012, 01:19 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 27 2012, 01:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- When a structure is Vortexed, the marines are not treated as having the it when they spawn or for tech tree requirements (unless they have another one that isn't Vortexed) of course. So a marine with Armor1 won't lose it if their only ArmsLab is Vortexed, but if a marine spawns during this time, they don't have that armor. When the ArmsLab comes out of the Vortex, they don't get that armor either (only on research complete).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That seems very unintuitive to me and I think new players might not understand what was going on. I would prefer it if when the arms lab gets vortexed, then marines who are alive will still have their upgrades, while players who spawn during the vortex will have their upgrades suspended but will get them back when the arms lab isn't vortexed anymore.
<!--quoteo(post=1954135:date=Jul 27 2012, 01:20 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 27 2012, 01:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've ignored this thread on purpose, assuming that the frankly terrible suggestions in here would be ignored, but I guess that was a mistake. Hope it isn't too late.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you not see a problem with fades losing blink on loss of second hive? I think they're pretty useless without blink.
<!--quoteo(post=1954110:date=Jul 27 2012, 01:19 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 27 2012, 01:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When a structure is Vortexed, the marines are not treated as having the it when they spawn or for tech tree requirements (unless they have another one that isn't Vortexed) of course. So a marine with Armor1 won't lose it if their only ArmsLab is Vortexed, but if a marine spawns during this time, they don't have that armor. When the ArmsLab comes out of the Vortex, they don't get that armor either (only on research complete).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines don't benefit from upgrades simply because they happened to spawn at an unfortunate time? That is absolutely ridiculous!
Comments
I think how FPS/RTS games deals with this conflict will help define the genre. Personally, my view is that:
- Any advantage or disadvantage should be as gradual as possible, such that it takes several and consistent advantages or disadvantages before the games outcome is determined
- There is an effective mechanism for the losing team to resign and for the game to end at once, when it becomes clear that they have no path to victory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^QFT!
If the researched tech is gone when the building is destroyed and has to be re-researched, it will lead to more comebacks. If your second hive just got down, you may be able to gather all aliens to attack the ArmsLab and finally make Skulks able to turn the tide. This allows for much more failures and therefor comebacks. Maybe the numbers for cost, research-duration and building-hp have to be tweaked. But if done right, this could solve one of the biggest problems of NS2: predictable game-outcomes.
Also the idea of a gorge-building the teleports aliens between two points is really cool. It tightens the bond between the gorge and other aliens and could create ninja tactics. Building one at the hive and the other one hidden near the enemy...
The gorge really need something to make it less boring, look at the last NS2HD video, and see how your blood pressure goes down when he's gorging : <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB8SzrMiCUA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB8SzrMiCUA</a>
Maybe it's a good class to play after lunch, while digesting :)
What you should have done, is to scout the marine base for advanced armory, realized that a gl push was possible, maybe build some whips, then have someone scouting the push path constantly, and get the team ready to ambush when the push was coming.
If you've done all that and still lost the hive maybe there is a problem with gl, otherwise it just look like a valid and desirable strategy.
For the jetpacks I think the lerk should be a decent counter, it's cheap and fly pretty well. The problem is that dot bite is wonky and he has no ranged attack on tier 1. Solution: fix bite and switch spikes and bite tier, or make spores ranged again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know this situation could have been handled, but with nano construct etc, it just goes really fast. Also, when 9 marines shoot grens at the hive, it just dies in secs.
Another thing, which is also what i didn't like about the way the game went, is that there was absolutely no skill involved in deciding the game, and if you ask me, not a lot of tactics either. I mean having one sneaky marine build a pg in less than a sec, beaconing and advising all to shoot the hive isn't such a huge strategic decision. It also costs the marines nothing. One pg, one nano construct and a jp marine at most (could be a vanilla marine as well). So: no risk -> huge reward (win game)
I'm overall ok with sneaky pgs punishing the aliens. It was the same in NS1 and worked well (was fun). It's just a little fast atm and cripples aliens too hard.
Also, in NS1 aliens where able to move to the attacked hive, if they were for example defending their second or third hive, or had the standard mc opening. Which gave some balance in terms of strategic options. Our game went like this: Almost all marines pressure crushing, almost all aliens defend crushing. One marine sneaks in a pg in ore. Marine Comm beacons, Alien Comm says go to ore fast. Before anyone could be there, the hive was down.
But that's not the point. The point is, that afterwards, all lifeforms are useless. I actually played a game yesterday, where a lerk bit me several times, before i was able to get to an armory, and i wasn't even close to dying. I didn't hit him with the first shots, and realized he didn't do a lot of damage, so i laughed and ran away, while he still bit me, to see how much damage he does (he hit me at least 6 times / i was armor 3). So lerks can't counter JPs, especially not, if the comm medpacks/nanoshields. They also die in 1-2 sg shots, so... This imo is the biggest problem. I think fades should be the JP hunters, but without blink they can't do anything.
You kind of feel like a hiveless fade in NS1, if you're on one hive in NS2... I like the shadow step, but you need to be able to gain height if you look up or something, because otherwise it's just totally pointless. I mean what's the point? You spend 50 res, defend one hive, the other hive gets rushed, and you can basically de-evolve to skulk...
The lack of this ability may have made sense back before anything was actually tied to the hives, but now that they are dependant on two and three hives to retain combat power it is more essential that they have that ability returned.
At the very least they should make the shift function like the movement chambers, letting you travel between them.
The lack of this ability may have made sense back before anything was actually tied to the hives, but now that they are dependant on two and three hives to retain combat power it is more essential that they have that ability returned.
At the very least they should make the shift function like the movement chambers, letting you travel between them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, but that would lead to needing the hives to have a teleport function, so there'd be variety in alien strategy. Like in NS1, where they added this function, so teams could use def and sens chambers as their first chambers as well.
I'd actually like the gorge to have the ability to create some kind of fast travel network, so the function is not tied to a specific hive upgrade. Maybe make it tier two, so it's not too easy to defend the first hive expansion? Or a tier one research-able upgrade, that might delay the second hive if you choose to get it?
I think Schimmel made a small mod with a basic variant of this, and it also looked cool already.
Yep, I have seen this mod too. It's like a hole in the ground on infestation. Aliens can use it like a teleporter. I think this could benefit gorges allot. (Should be only placeable on infestation.)
How else are you supposed to snipe tech? Now with the case of hive tech, i think it might be nice to have blink, leap etc. tied to their own chambers that unlock after a new hive is completed. You dont lose them if hive dies, but you cant drop new ones if the marines kill the chambers aswell until a new hive is up. Just like all the evolutions(cara,regen,cele, etc.). Might be even harsher tho when someone snipes blink chamber when youre a fade in the middle of a fight. Would make getting the second hive up as important as it is now, but not quite so cripling if you lose it.
Not saying it should be easy or without risk.. but surprise PGs are such a staple of NS tactics..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For this to happen, the hivesight for marines on infestation would need to be removed..
<!--quoteo(post=1952762:date=Jul 20 2012, 08:49 AM:name=hapro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hapro @ Jul 20 2012, 08:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everyone knows the best part of Counterstrike is making clutch 1v5s with only a deagle and 10 people spectating you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In CS there are dynamic hitboxes though......... my first post on this website was about incorperating dynamic hitboxes and it's 50/50 for people liking/disliking dynamic hitboxes.. and I think the people that don't like the idea just don't understand that a headshot doesn't HAVE TO mean "+300%" damage.. it can be tiny amounts that simply reward people for aiming well...
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115016&hl=" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...=115016&hl=</a>
On topic:
Not sure what I think about this.. it would merge the NS_ + CO_ type modes...... like in CO_ you wouldn't lose your upgrades. *Shrug* Hive travel is definitely needed though either way.. when a new hive is put up the marines could have a pg right around the corner and just warp in and -50 res for the aliens ON TOP of losing the hive in the first place..... I find this sets them back a lot more than the marines, whose structures are less pricey.
- When aliens lose evolutions due to losing a Shell (Regeneration) or a Hive (Blink), they keep that ability until they die.
- When a structure is Vortexed, the marines are not treated as having the it when they spawn or for tech tree requirements (unless they have another one that isn't Vortexed) of course. So a marine with Armor1 won't lose it if their only ArmsLab is Vortexed, but if a marine spawns during this time, they don't have that armor. When the ArmsLab comes out of the Vortex, they don't get that armor either (only on research complete).
I hope this pleases at least some of you...
is this due to a technical limitation? what if the marines build a new armslab while one is vortex'd, do the marines get their armor/weapon upgrades back? seems like it would be simpler and more intuitive for the upgrades to reappear.
As for aliens, personally I'm fine with the upgrades sticking since those structures are very vulnerable and it's hard to tell when you've lost one. I think the hive dying should strip players of their hive-based abilities though, because a Fade/Onos could be alive for a very long time and would be completely unaffected by the loss of the hive which feels unfair for the marines.
- When a structure is Vortexed, the marines are not treated as having the it when they spawn or for tech tree requirements (unless they have another one that isn't Vortexed) of course. So a marine with Armor1 won't lose it if their only ArmsLab is Vortexed, but if a marine spawns during this time, they don't have that armor. When the ArmsLab comes out of the Vortex, they don't get that armor either (only on research complete).
I hope this pleases at least some of you...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Point 1: I like it! Bit weird to think of it in terms of a skulk "forgetting to leap", so its good that doesn't happen anymore.
Point 2: This seems not very intuitive, and gives a player incentive to "kill" in console and respawn, which isnt good. i.e. if I spawn in when we have Armor3/Weaps 3 and dont get it, might as well just respawn immediately.
Exactly what I was thinking- it's random and frustrating if you're that unfortunate marine. That, or just go rambo and try to do a little damage before I die. But there's no way I would buy even a 5pres welder without having my upgrades.
The first trivializes hive losses (again) and disincentivizes aggressive marine play to "snipe" alien upgrade buildings, which should be a viable tactic.
The second is entirely random, unfair and confusing for the affected marines.
I've ignored this thread on purpose, assuming that the frankly terrible suggestions in here would be ignored, but I guess that was a mistake. Hope it isn't too late.
The first trivializes hive losses (again) and disincentivizes aggressive marine play to "snipe" alien upgrade buildings, which should be a viable tactic.
The second is entirely random, unfair and confusing for the affected marines.
I've ignored this thread on purpose, assuming that the frankly terrible suggestions in here would be ignored, but I guess that was a mistake. Hope it isn't too late.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does not trivalize it as any new spawning alien loses upgrades/abilities. Its just "on the field" aliens who don't lose out.
worried about scenarios<i> where you can no longer base your tactics on what you've done to the enemy.</i> JPs that expect no more blink or leap suddenly cant rely on this for the remainder of the game..
<b>This sort of breaks the design goal of being able to read your opponent's hand of cards and react appropriately to them, doesn't it?</b> Quite unintuitive as you'll have players playing based on a set of rules that aren't actually going to be consistent, or having expectations based on said rules that don't follow through..
I wonder if the frustration will swing from the side of abruptly losing your ability as an alien... to the side of a marine who thought that aliens didnt have blink anymore.. and thus didnt buy that shotgun or jp etc.. because the rest of the team didn't have those tier 2 abilities anymore for 10 minutes?
Carapace shells etc. evolution chambers need to be snipeable. You need to be able to damage the lifeforms indirectly by sniping the evolutions. The way it is with them now is perfect.
I can actually agree with the hive tech change. Might get nice situations where marines have jetpacks and one fade with blink remains, being pretty much the only hope for the aliens to comeback.
How exactly does it disincentivize aggressive marine play? I'm sorry but that's just plain nonsense. Losing shells still forces the enemy commander to sink quite a bit of T.res in unlocking them again. And it's something that will be almost immediately felt by skulks and other less 'durable' lifeforms. Losing a hive is still very much a big deal, but at least it doesn't immediately destroy ANY potential for aliens to make a comeback. (especially if Jetpacks are in play) The fact that newly spawned skulks won't have leap any more is already a BIG deal for aliens.
Will losing the arms lab still immediately make marines lose upgrades? Because if it does, it does bring in the question of balance. Should marines lose their upgrades immediately when they lose the arms lab when aliens don't lose their upgrades when they lose the shell/veil/shift? One middle ground solution to this could be to keep losing shells/veil/shift make you lose upgrades immediately but NOT have hive loss lose you the ability before death. This would probably be the best solution for balance, since it puts both factions on par in terms of upgrade losses and 'second tier' tech. (Marines only lose the ability to buy jetpacks, they don't lose existing ones, aliens only lose the abilities on newly spawned lifeforms)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This sort of breaks the design goal of being able to read your opponent's hand of cards and react appropriately to them, doesn't it? Quite unintuitive as you'll have players playing based on a set of rules that aren't actually going to be consistent, or having expectations based on said rules that don't follow through..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We're not playing with 5 year olds, are we? I think the average gamer is more than competent enough to be able to differentiate the skill set of pesky lifeforms that have been in play prior to hive loss and ones that have just showed up. If anything, it will be up the ante for players to try and kill specific players on the enemy team, to make sure they lose their second tier abilities as well.
Really love this change, Charlie!
I'm a little on the fence in regards to the second one. Like other people have pointed out, it pretty much promotes killing yourself in console and respawning to get full upgrades back. Probably not the best idea.
The evolution upgrades really should strip intantly for everyone upon losing the upgrade structure, just like with the armslab. It doesnt really matter when one skulk cant evolve carapace, but 7 fades still have it even though you sniped the chamber down. You send marines to go into the hiveroom to sacrifice themselves while killing an evolve chamber to give you an edge over the fades for a short while. With this change it wont make any difference.
Same thing with aliens. You send some skulks into the base to kill the armslab, and then try to crush the marines outpost with a big assault. If the upgrades dont strip, you cant do that either. These changes just take away viable strategies.
Carapace shells etc. evolution chambers need to be snipeable. You need to be able to damage the lifeforms indirectly by sniping the evolutions. The way it is with them now is perfect.
I can actually agree with the hive tech change. Might get nice situations where marines have jetpacks and one fade with blink remains, being pretty much the only hope for the aliens to comeback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree with this, the way I see it the hive/ability thing will work- Marines don't lose their JP/exo when they lose their 2nd CC so I can sort of draw parallels to a fade not losing his blink if the 2nd hive goes down. The armslab/chamber upgrades seem like they should be different and more instantaneous though.
On another note I don't think the armslab upgrades (or any marine macro tech) should be affected in any way by Vortex. That's part of the reason why Vortex is so incredibly imbalanced on live builds right now.
- When aliens lose evolutions due to losing a Shell (Regeneration) or a Hive (Blink), they keep that ability until they die.
- When a structure is Vortexed, the marines are not treated as having the it when they spawn or for tech tree requirements (unless they have another one that isn't Vortexed) of course. So a marine with Armor1 won't lose it if their only ArmsLab is Vortexed, but if a marine spawns during this time, they don't have that armor. When the ArmsLab comes out of the Vortex, they don't get that armor either (only on research complete).
I hope this pleases at least some of you...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this changes. It's an easy concept. You get the upgrades that were ready when you spawned / evolved. Period. This is KISS.
If a fade vortexes your arms lab, than because there is a rush on your mainbase going on. You sure can type kill in console. But this will only speed up your loss of the main base. No fade would possibly spend much time in vortexing an arms lab just to decrease the upgrades of the marines that spawned in this 5 seconds. A fade harassing the marine base like this will never be an effective fade.
Also if you kill a hive, you should know how many fades are out there and they will have blink until you kill them. I see no problem there.
Only that they do it constantly right now, and it very much has the ability to destroy the marines. if you can get a couple of vortex fades to work together, you can shutdown the entire base with vortex. Tell me how is that not effective?
Then there really isn't a strong incentive for marines to target upgrade buildings anymore. I feel like aliens deserve to be penalized severely if they can't protect their most important structures. If this change is implemented then the aliens on the field might not even notice if upgrade structures are killed cause the commander can just make new ones before they die. It would trivialize losing structures for the aliens.
Of course it's frustrating to lose upgrades structures, but it always the aliens own fault and I don't think this change would be fair for the marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1954110:date=Jul 27 2012, 01:19 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 27 2012, 01:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- When a structure is Vortexed, the marines are not treated as having the it when they spawn or for tech tree requirements (unless they have another one that isn't Vortexed) of course. So a marine with Armor1 won't lose it if their only ArmsLab is Vortexed, but if a marine spawns during this time, they don't have that armor. When the ArmsLab comes out of the Vortex, they don't get that armor either (only on research complete).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That seems very unintuitive to me and I think new players might not understand what was going on. I would prefer it if when the arms lab gets vortexed, then marines who are alive will still have their upgrades, while players who spawn during the vortex will have their upgrades suspended but will get them back when the arms lab isn't vortexed anymore.
Do you not see a problem with fades losing blink on loss of second hive? I think they're pretty useless without blink.
Marines don't benefit from upgrades simply because they happened to spawn at an unfortunate time?
That is absolutely ridiculous!