<!--quoteo(post=1950003:date=Jul 9 2012, 07:18 AM:name=bobrun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bobrun @ Jul 9 2012, 07:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guys, Flame + Jetpack cost 40 res to buy. It's the most costly combo for a marine (except if you buy tons of mines, but that's another story).
If you have difficulties fighting against something that cost 40 res, well....that's the point of it. And even then, a FT is not a weapon that kills easily. It does some damage, it's really annoying for higher lifeforms, but it's far from being ultimate. Just use skulks against it, because it's the lifeform that depends the less on its energy and you are fast enough to fight them, even if they flies around. Also, skulks are free, so you can waste 1 or 2 of them to take out a FT + JP without res penalty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seen plenty of games where marines just repickup weapons over and over and over and over the whole game long and thats fine, but most of the time that 40 res that you're talking about is in fact 10 res lost when the marine died. Would be nice to have a way to destroy dropped weapons as aliens, or that the weapons only stay for a very short period of time (not enough time to run back yourself)
<!--quoteo(post=1949949:date=Jul 8 2012, 02:17 PM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Jul 8 2012, 02:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->easy solution is to just not allow or heavily penalize a JP marine using a Flamethrower or a Grenade Launcher<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like that, but the problem is you can not drop the jetpack. I think drain that much energy is a problem, so why not make the flamethrower as a tiny weapon maybe give the welder a secondary mod. in which the welder spit fire, for that secondary mod. it has gas which have to be refill at armory or ammopcks.
<!--quoteo(post=1950003:date=Jul 8 2012, 10:18 PM:name=bobrun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bobrun @ Jul 8 2012, 10:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guys, Flame + Jetpack cost 40 res to buy. It's the most costly combo for a marine (except if you buy tons of mines, but that's another story).
If you have difficulties fighting against something that cost 40 res, well....that's the point of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry but this comment is not considered, only because something cost much it should not be overpowered and thats what the mix of jp and flamethrower is. Also if you think a bit, the flamethrower will be dropped, so a jetpack marine lost only 10 res and not 40, he or his mates can pickup the weapons. but if a onos or fade or even a lerk die, the player lost all the res, think about that.
Just did some testing... Weapons 0 FT vs Fade, no cara = 4.0s FT vs Fade w/cara = 4.5s FT vs Lerk, no cara = 3.5s FT vs Lerk, w/cara = 4.2s FT duration per clip = 8s
That was sustained fire against a stationary target at <1m range, so it measures teh fastest possible way a lifeform could die against the FT. My conclusion is that FT might cause a killing blow because of DOT but won't score a kill on its own.
<!--quoteo(post=1950025:date=Jul 9 2012, 12:28 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 9 2012, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just did some testing... Weapons 0 FT vs Fade, no cara = 4.0s FT vs Fade w/cara = 4.5s FT vs Lerk, no cara = 3.5s FT vs Lerk, w/cara = 4.2s FT duration per clip = 8s<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Edited: What did this mean? how fast the alienlifeform die? But realy? a fade die at weapons level 0 already in 4 seconds? Well thats fast! The fade cost 50 res, thats the half of all res of a player and a FT kill him in 4 seconds?
<!--quoteo(post=1950027:date=Jul 9 2012, 10:30 AM:name=frmehe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frmehe @ Jul 9 2012, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edited: What did this mean? how fast the alienlifeform die? But realy? a fade die at weapons level 0 already in 4 seconds? Well thats fast! The fade cost 50 res, thats the half of all res of a player and a FT kill him in 4 seconds?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade without carapace dies in 1.6 seconds (about 2 seconds with carapace) vs lvl 0 lmg so i dont really see the problem with flamer.
<!--quoteo(post=1950030:date=Jul 9 2012, 03:48 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 9 2012, 03:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950030"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fade without carapace dies in 1.6 seconds (about 2 seconds with carapace) vs lvl 0 lmg so i dont really see the problem with flamer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it stops energy regen? If you can't blink, you're dead.
<!--quoteo(post=1950037:date=Jul 9 2012, 11:24 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jul 9 2012, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because it stops energy regen? If you can't blink, you're dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just takes the energy regen rate down, not complete stop but close. So far ive had enough energy to atleast shadowstep away from FT's, but it certainly isnt good if you get caught with no energy. Personally ive had far higher fatality rate simply blinking into 2 shotguns carelessly and dying instantly before even taking one swipe, than dying to a flamer/after having my energy sapped by one.
<!--quoteo(post=1950043:date=Jul 9 2012, 06:51 PM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 9 2012, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just takes the energy regen rate down, not complete stop but close. So far ive had enough energy to atleast shadowstep away from FT's, but it certainly isnt good if you get caught with no energy. Personally ive had far higher fatality rate simply blinking into 2 shotguns carelessly and dying instantly before even taking one swipe, than dying to a flamer/after having my energy sapped by one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This.
The propensity for forum posts to oversimplify and marginalise various game mechanics is not helpful. Eg: implying that flamethrower makes fades immobile. FT makes escaping as a fade <i>harder</i>, but not impossible. You can either play more cautiously when FT are in use or keep playing the same way and acccept the greater risks.
What makes me laugh is that rather than accept that reality, some people dig in and try to fault find instead of proposing or discussing solutions. I for one have already said in this thread that perhaps the fade/FT+JP dynamic could be looked at, but instead of discussing options we're now bogged down on these details. I almost expect one of the responses to be "I never said it makes fades immoble", but having written that I may have altered the course of history. :p
One of the problem is that when jp's attack a hive, escaping is not really an option, since you want to keep your hive alive.
What about removing energy drain and damage over time from the flamethrower and boost up a bit the damage, so you actually need to aim to deal damage ?
AngeluszHarmonic entropistJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1950063:date=Jul 9 2012, 01:41 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 9 2012, 01:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the problem is that when jp's attack a hive, escaping is not really an option, since you want to keep your hive alive. What about removing energy drain and damage over time from the flamethrower and boost up a bit the damage, so you actually need to aim to deal damage ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would basically turn it into a cone-AoE rifle. I say nay. The damage over time should stay, just not the energy drain.
Or, if the developers insist on keeping the energy regen loss, make it work for only a very short time after a direct hit - say, half a second or less - so that it's only effective under a constant stream. That way, it can still help to ward off an Onos - though not to the same degree - but will do little to deprive the high-speed lifeforms of their movement abilities, at least if they're any good at it.
<!--quoteo(post=1950063:date=Jul 9 2012, 01:41 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 9 2012, 01:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the problem is that when jp's attack a hive, escaping is not really an option, since you want to keep your hive alive.
What about removing energy drain and damage over time from the flamethrower and boost up a bit the damage, so you actually need to aim to deal damage ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds very boring. Another weapon that does damage... Also to your hive example: The hive resets the after burn. No need to escape.
<u>To the OP:</u> The feature of the flamer, that <b>nearly stops energy-regeneration</b> is not overpowered. It is a needed soft counter to higher lifeforms in late game. It can't kill a lifeform alone, but is helpful to make it harder for this lifeform to retreat. It is late-game tech. It is costly and very vulnerable against skulks. It is only useful in a group of marines as assistance to other weapons.
Also stop complaining about the 4s to kill a fade. That is WITH ramp-up time. I haven't met one single player that could possibly hit a fade with the flamer constantly for 4seconds. As soon as your cross-hair loses the fade, the ramp up is reseted. Bringing you in reality to times like 15 or 20 seconds to kill a fade with the flamer. Please stop your sophistry and start thinking about your arguments before bringing them in. The goal here is not to convince someone from your opinion but to make this game the best as possible. Sophistry is the worst that you could try here.
So lets try to look at this objective. The combination of JP and FT does kill two of the downsides of the weapon: <ul><li>the slow movement speed and</li><li>the vulnerability because of low damage</li></ul>
There was the solution to prohibit heavy weapon use on jetpacks. This is not a bad idea but maybe a bit over the top. I think it would be enough when the marine can't fire (effective) while flying. This could be achieved in various ways: <ul><li>FT and GL is not fire-able while in the air (does take away freedom from the player)</li><li>Firing heavy weapons in the air creates a strong recoil, pushing you back and making it very difficult to stay in the air.</li><li>Losing JP-fuel extreme fast while firing a heavy weapon in the air, because of the recoil.</li></ul>
I like the second proposal. (I know FT doesn't have a recoil in reality.) It would burst you through the air like a leaky baloon when firing a heavy weapon. Making it useable for a retreat, but very difficult to used in a real combat. You would hit a corner very soon. Or you would at least move out of the range of the weapon.
TL;DR: Make the FT and GL not (effectively) fire-able while in the air.
The main problem with flamethrower is that it's not very fun to use as a marine, you just spray it around you and your almost sure to hit some stuff, I don't really know how it could be more interesting though.
One idea would be to make it more like a fireball instead of a constant jet, so you need to get the timing and the aiming/prediction right to really hit something. It wouldn't look like a DBZ fireball though, just a bit more like a big burst of fire instead of a boring stream. A shotgun but with slow bullets.
I like the recoil idea for firing in the air, it sound much more like a buff than a nerf, but it also sounds fun.
The flamethrower is a pretty complicated weapon. Earlier in this thread I was going to calculate the time to kill the various lifeforms, but after looking at the code I decided to do an empirical test.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kFlamethrowerDamage = 7.5 kFlamethrowerDamageType = kDamageType.Flame kFlamethrowerClipSize = 30 kBurnDamagePerStackPerSecond = 2 kFlamethrowerMaxStacks = 20 kFlamethrowerBurnDuration = 6 kFlamethrowerStackRate = 0.4 kFlameRadius = 1.8 kFlameDamageStackWeight = 0.5<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--> But maybe some public knowledge about how it works will help.
Since then I've tried for longer than I'd care to admit looking through the code to understand what's going on. I think there are 2 (or more) things going on with the FT, a gunshot like pulse & a DOT. Possibly a third thing with flame.lua. I'm new to lua. Learnt a few things though.
If any of the devs happen to read this, the design complexity of the FT warrants some code comments giving a plain English description of the way the weapon is intended to work. ಠ_à²
AngeluszHarmonic entropistJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
Ok. I'll give this a go. I have some basic programming skills and this is in no way an official statement (I'm sort of guessing, based on the variables).
From what I can, players get 'stacks' of flame damage when hit by the flamethrower. 1 stack every 0.4 seconds. The duration of the fire damage is 6 seconds (not sure if each stack gets refreshed when a new one is applied). Thus dealing a total of 2x6=12 damage per stack if it's NOT being refreshed. Since it takes 0.4 seconds to apply a stack, the logical conclusion would be that 1 second of flaming does 2.5x12=30 damage.
The above is all assuming that stacks don't refresh. If they do, damage increases significantly.
I think the 6 seconds of FlamethrowerBurnDuration is only the afterburn. Damage is BurnDamagePerStackPerSecond = 2 Base-damage could be FlamethrowerDamage = 7.5 Every 0.4 seconds one stack with BurnDamagePerStackPerSecond = 2 is added, when you hit the alien to a maximum of 20 stacks. So your first hit is 7.5 Damage. After 0.4 seconds your next hit comes in with 7.5 + 2 damage. After again 0.4 seconds the next hit with 7.5 + 2 +2... Max damage would be after 8 seconds with the last hit doing 47.5 damage.
But I haven't seen the code too. So no idea if I'm right.
<!--quoteo(post=1950068:date=Jul 9 2012, 07:01 AM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Jul 9 2012, 07:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would basically turn it into a cone-AoE rifle. I say nay. The damage over time should stay, just not the energy drain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually like the idea of energy draining weapons, but it needs to be a highly skill required feat - not an AoE weapon like the flamer which has a very low skill requirement and ceiling.
<!--quoteo(post=1950130:date=Jul 9 2012, 11:38 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 9 2012, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed, something like a 5 pres single shot ammo for the pistol secondary fire would do the job. I would make nice fade hunts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which could be controlled by the player like the redeemer of unreal tournament? would love that!
<!--quoteo(post=1950130:date=Jul 9 2012, 12:38 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 9 2012, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed, something like a 5 pres single shot ammo for the pistol secondary fire would do the job. I would make nice fade hunts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah a pistol replacement would be good. Currently we have nothing that replaces pistols.
The flamethrower fires 30 rounds in 7.5 seconds, for a firing rate of 4/second. Stacks are added every 0.4 seconds and the stack time resets every time the target gets hit.
Both the flamethrower direct damage and the after burn damage are affected by the number of stacks.
"Stack Weight" refers to the % increase of the base damage per stack with the direct flamethrower damage. So the flamethrower damage per round is 7.5 + (7.5 * 0.5 * #stacks).
Burn damage simply increases by 2 per second per stack.
So the max dps, including burn damage, is 370.
EDIT: From testing this in-game, it appears to be 332 max dps. I also noticed the damage indicator shows a long delay between the first and second shots. Maybe this is a bug?
You know a simple solution could just be to increase the pres cost of the JP. Currently as it is the JP as a whole is too frequent. This lowers that frequency and also raises the cost to a point where the JP + Flamer combo is near equivelent to it's power.
Or if you wanted to do some sort of penalty for JPs with GLs and flamers you could do something akin the the run speed change they did, where the JP expends more fuel if you have a heavier weapon. Personally, I would rather just see a pres cost increase on the JP as that has the potential to solve another problem that just so happens to be related to this one (rampant JP use).
<!--quoteo(post=1950143:date=Jul 9 2012, 01:39 PM:name=Industry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Industry @ Jul 9 2012, 01:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know a simple solution could just be to increase the pres cost of the JP. Currently as it is the JP as a whole is too frequent. This lowers that frequency and also raises the cost to a point where the JP + Flamer combo is near equivelent to it's power.
Or if you wanted to do some sort of penalty for JPs with GLs and flamers you could do something akin the the run speed change they did, where the JP expends more fuel if you have a heavier weapon. Personally, I would rather just see a pres cost increase on the JP as that has the potential to solve another problem that just so happens to be related to this one (rampant JP use).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would rather see a penalty when using jetpacks, so there is a reason to not use it besides saving pres.
eg jetpack reduces armour, exosuit you cannot jump and move slowly.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2012
<b>Alright just an idea here how to fix the FT's role in general while fixing the JP + FT combo:</b>
My suggestion is something along the lines of the FT stripping away armor quickly with slight hp damage
I personally think it makes sense to have armor torched away quickly to encourage retreat and lack of combat effectiveness, rather than have frustrating "negative abilities" like energy removal. Yes this means you can still swipe or bite if you have energy, but you are at a severe combat disadvantage now if there is anything other than a FTer around as well.
This approach, much like the GL or shotgun, would require another weapon(s) nearby, if you wanted to finish them off, keeping roles/tradeoffs/teamwork in play appropriately. Then adjust the prices across the board to 25 pres for all the upgraded weapons and balance them accordingly. (like 50% less player dmg from grenades!) <b>Frustrating mechanics fixed. Non counterable FT+JP fixed. Roles fixed. <i>And this would finally give you that oh so coveted Onos counter you want.</i></b>
Oh, infestation/cysts are still highly flammable tho, as it's still a great AoE weapon.
<!--quoteo(post=1950240:date=Jul 9 2012, 10:50 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 9 2012, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My suggestion is something along the lines of the FT stripping away armor quickly with slight hp damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Before changing the way the flamethrower works. I would prefer to see an increase in jetpack cost. Flamethrowers are a hefty investment. You're trading away the ability to (reasonably) kill aliens, As well as spending a large amount of res on the weapon.
If you see a marine running around with a flamethrower, Would you complain then? He's on the ground with limited movement. Easy prey for Skulks and fades. But then you add a jetpack and one of the major downsides to using a flamethrower is massively lessened (Same can be said for any weapon in the game) I personally recommend an increase to the price of jetpacks. If it costs 25PRES for a jetpack, And 35? for a flamethrower. That's 60pres. 60pres and that marine will have difficulty killing anything still.
A single bite from a lerk who swoops in and swoops out will take a steady toll on the life of the marine to the point a single bite, spike, or swipe will kill him
But what if he moves in group with other marines? They will protect him with their rifles and shotguns, removing the final weakness of the flamethrower wielding marine. -The inability to effectively kill lifeforms. So since being in a group and having a jetpack effectively removes all the drawbacks from using the flamethrower, Should being nearby other marines be nerfed? Should sticking next to your buddy make your weapons weaker?
The entire role of the flamethrower is about support and structure killing, Not killing players. It's near impossible to kill a SMART alien while using the flamethrower.
I hope you're understanding the point i'm making
The flamethrower in of itself, is for the most part fine. (I'd like to see it kill cysts/non-hive structures much faster, but eh. Whatever) But when you add certain qualities to the external force (player upgrades) It can become "Too Good" and have nearly all the flaws to using it alleviated.
Make an Onos Scream ability that creates a large gust of wind for several seconds that pushes back jetpacks. Doesn't have to kill them, just repel them.
Remember that in NS1, spores were the anti-jetpack technique. Use spores to soften up the JP's then a skulk can one-bite them. I don't really see this tactic in use in this game. Perhaps spores needs to be changed?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1950309:date=Jul 10 2012, 04:23 AM:name=Krovakon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krovakon @ Jul 10 2012, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Before changing the way the flamethrower works. I would prefer to see an increase in jetpack cost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cost affects frequency of interaction, not the actual mechanics of the interaction. Fix the interaction, then adjust cost to desired frequency.
<!--quoteo(post=1950309:date=Jul 10 2012, 04:23 AM:name=Krovakon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krovakon @ Jul 10 2012, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The entire role of the flamethrower is about support and structure killing, Not killing players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And this is where it's role is competing/overlapping with the GL, and as such failing. IMO it should be combat support and infestation removal, but not structure killing.
<!--quoteo(post=1950309:date=Jul 10 2012, 04:23 AM:name=Krovakon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krovakon @ Jul 10 2012, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The flamethrower in of itself, is for the most part fine. But when you add certain qualities to the external force (player upgrades) It can become "Too Good" and have nearly all the flaws to using it alleviated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its one of the most complained about weapons, and has been for over 6 months?? It's role is not clearly defined, it's effects on gameplay are not clearly evident to the user, it's role overlaps with other weapons, it's a frustrating "negavite ability", and as such its often skipped competitively for something far more useful. The upgrades, such as the JP merely highlight the downsides of this weapon which you typically dont notice as well because you are able to physically reach the marine - this changes with JPs. <b>Fix the role.</b> Make it support and take away the negative abilities, and it will become a balanced, viable option.
Comments
If you have difficulties fighting against something that cost 40 res, well....that's the point of it. And even then, a FT is not a weapon that kills easily. It does some damage, it's really annoying for higher lifeforms, but it's far from being ultimate. Just use skulks against it, because it's the lifeform that depends the less on its energy and you are fast enough to fight them, even if they flies around. Also, skulks are free, so you can waste 1 or 2 of them to take out a FT + JP without res penalty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seen plenty of games where marines just repickup weapons over and over and over and over the whole game long and thats fine, but most of the time that 40 res that you're talking about is in fact 10 res lost when the marine died. Would be nice to have a way to destroy dropped weapons as aliens, or that the weapons only stay for a very short period of time (not enough time to run back yourself)
I like that, but the problem is you can not drop the jetpack.
I think drain that much energy is a problem, so why not make the flamethrower as a tiny weapon maybe give the welder a secondary mod. in which the welder spit fire, for that secondary mod. it has gas which have to be refill at armory or ammopcks.
<!--quoteo(post=1950003:date=Jul 8 2012, 10:18 PM:name=bobrun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bobrun @ Jul 8 2012, 10:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guys, Flame + Jetpack cost 40 res to buy. It's the most costly combo for a marine (except if you buy tons of mines, but that's another story).
If you have difficulties fighting against something that cost 40 res, well....that's the point of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but this comment is not considered, only because something cost much it should not be overpowered and thats what the mix of jp and flamethrower is.
Also if you think a bit, the flamethrower will be dropped, so a jetpack marine lost only 10 res and not 40, he or his mates can pickup the weapons.
but if a onos or fade or even a lerk die, the player lost all the res, think about that.
FT vs Fade, no cara = 4.0s
FT vs Fade w/cara = 4.5s
FT vs Lerk, no cara = 3.5s
FT vs Lerk, w/cara = 4.2s
FT duration per clip = 8s
That was sustained fire against a stationary target at <1m range, so it measures teh fastest possible way a lifeform could die against the FT. My conclusion is that FT might cause a killing blow because of DOT but won't score a kill on its own.
FT vs Fade, no cara = 4.0s
FT vs Fade w/cara = 4.5s
FT vs Lerk, no cara = 3.5s
FT vs Lerk, w/cara = 4.2s
FT duration per clip = 8s<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Edited:
What did this mean? how fast the alienlifeform die?
But realy? a fade die at weapons level 0 already in 4 seconds? Well thats fast!
The fade cost 50 res, thats the half of all res of a player and a FT kill him in 4 seconds?
What did this mean? how fast the alienlifeform die?
But realy? a fade die at weapons level 0 already in 4 seconds? Well thats fast!
The fade cost 50 res, thats the half of all res of a player and a FT kill him in 4 seconds?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade without carapace dies in 1.6 seconds (about 2 seconds with carapace) vs lvl 0 lmg so i dont really see the problem with flamer.
Because it stops energy regen? If you can't blink, you're dead.
Just takes the energy regen rate down, not complete stop but close. So far ive had enough energy to atleast shadowstep away from FT's, but it certainly isnt good if you get caught with no energy. Personally ive had far higher fatality rate simply blinking into 2 shotguns carelessly and dying instantly before even taking one swipe, than dying to a flamer/after having my energy sapped by one.
This.
The propensity for forum posts to oversimplify and marginalise various game mechanics is not helpful. Eg: implying that flamethrower makes fades immobile. FT makes escaping as a fade <i>harder</i>, but not impossible. You can either play more cautiously when FT are in use or keep playing the same way and acccept the greater risks.
What makes me laugh is that rather than accept that reality, some people dig in and try to fault find instead of proposing or discussing solutions. I for one have already said in this thread that perhaps the fade/FT+JP dynamic could be looked at, but instead of discussing options we're now bogged down on these details. I almost expect one of the responses to be "I never said it makes fades immoble", but having written that I may have altered the course of history. :p
What about removing energy drain and damage over time from the flamethrower and boost up a bit the damage, so you actually need to aim to deal damage ?
What about removing energy drain and damage over time from the flamethrower and boost up a bit the damage, so you actually need to aim to deal damage ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would basically turn it into a cone-AoE rifle. I say nay. The damage over time should stay, just not the energy drain.
What about removing energy drain and damage over time from the flamethrower and boost up a bit the damage, so you actually need to aim to deal damage ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds very boring. Another weapon that does damage...
Also to your hive example: The hive resets the after burn. No need to escape.
<u>To the OP:</u>
The feature of the flamer, that <b>nearly stops energy-regeneration</b> is not overpowered.
It is a needed soft counter to higher lifeforms in late game.
It can't kill a lifeform alone, but is helpful to make it harder for this lifeform to retreat.
It is late-game tech.
It is costly and very vulnerable against skulks.
It is only useful in a group of marines as assistance to other weapons.
Also stop complaining about the 4s to kill a fade. That is WITH ramp-up time. I haven't met one single player that could possibly hit a fade with the flamer constantly for 4seconds. As soon as your cross-hair loses the fade, the ramp up is reseted. Bringing you in reality to times like 15 or 20 seconds to kill a fade with the flamer. Please stop your sophistry and start thinking about your arguments before bringing them in. The goal here is not to convince someone from your opinion but to make this game the best as possible. Sophistry is the worst that you could try here.
So lets try to look at this objective. The combination of JP and FT does kill two of the downsides of the weapon:
<ul><li>the slow movement speed and</li><li>the vulnerability because of low damage</li></ul>
There was the solution to prohibit heavy weapon use on jetpacks. This is not a bad idea but maybe a bit over the top. I think it would be enough when the marine can't fire (effective) while flying. This could be achieved in various ways:
<ul><li>FT and GL is not fire-able while in the air (does take away freedom from the player)</li><li>Firing heavy weapons in the air creates a strong recoil, pushing you back and making it very difficult to stay in the air.</li><li>Losing JP-fuel extreme fast while firing a heavy weapon in the air, because of the recoil.</li></ul>
I like the second proposal. (I know FT doesn't have a recoil in reality.) It would burst you through the air like a leaky baloon when firing a heavy weapon. Making it useable for a retreat, but very difficult to used in a real combat. You would hit a corner very soon. Or you would at least move out of the range of the weapon.
TL;DR:
Make the FT and GL not (effectively) fire-able while in the air.
to hit some stuff, I don't really know how it could be more interesting though.
One idea would be to make it more like a fireball instead of a constant jet, so you need to get the timing and the aiming/prediction right to really hit something. It wouldn't look like a DBZ fireball though, just
a bit more like a big burst of fire instead of a boring stream. A shotgun but with slow bullets.
I like the recoil idea for firing in the air, it sound much more like a buff than a nerf, but it also sounds fun.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kFlamethrowerDamage = 7.5
kFlamethrowerDamageType = kDamageType.Flame
kFlamethrowerClipSize = 30
kBurnDamagePerStackPerSecond = 2
kFlamethrowerMaxStacks = 20
kFlamethrowerBurnDuration = 6
kFlamethrowerStackRate = 0.4
kFlameRadius = 1.8
kFlameDamageStackWeight = 0.5<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
But maybe some public knowledge about how it works will help.
Since then I've tried for longer than I'd care to admit looking through the code to understand what's going on. I think there are 2 (or more) things going on with the FT, a gunshot like pulse & a DOT. Possibly a third thing with flame.lua. I'm new to lua. Learnt a few things though.
If any of the devs happen to read this, the design complexity of the FT warrants some code comments giving a plain English description of the way the weapon is intended to work. ಠ_à²
From what I can, players get 'stacks' of flame damage when hit by the flamethrower. 1 stack every 0.4 seconds. The duration of the fire damage is 6 seconds (not sure if each stack gets refreshed when a new one is applied). Thus dealing a total of 2x6=12 damage per stack if it's NOT being refreshed. Since it takes 0.4 seconds to apply a stack, the logical conclusion would be that 1 second of flaming does 2.5x12=30 damage.
The above is all assuming that stacks don't refresh. If they do, damage increases significantly.
Base-damage could be FlamethrowerDamage = 7.5
Every 0.4 seconds one stack with BurnDamagePerStackPerSecond = 2 is added, when you hit the alien to a maximum of 20 stacks.
So your first hit is 7.5 Damage. After 0.4 seconds your next hit comes in with 7.5 + 2 damage. After again 0.4 seconds the next hit with 7.5 + 2 +2...
Max damage would be after 8 seconds with the last hit doing 47.5 damage.
But I haven't seen the code too. So no idea if I'm right.
I actually like the idea of energy draining weapons, but it needs to be a highly skill required feat - not an AoE weapon like the flamer which has a very low skill requirement and ceiling.
Which could be controlled by the player like the redeemer of unreal tournament? would love that!
Yeah a pistol replacement would be good. Currently we have nothing that replaces pistols.
The flamethrower fires 30 rounds in 7.5 seconds, for a firing rate of 4/second. Stacks are added every 0.4 seconds and the stack time resets every time the target gets hit.
Both the flamethrower direct damage and the after burn damage are affected by the number of stacks.
"Stack Weight" refers to the % increase of the base damage per stack with the direct flamethrower damage. So the flamethrower damage per round is 7.5 + (7.5 * 0.5 * #stacks).
Burn damage simply increases by 2 per second per stack.
So the max dps, including burn damage, is 370.
EDIT: From testing this in-game, it appears to be 332 max dps. I also noticed the damage indicator shows a long delay between the first and second shots. Maybe this is a bug?
Or if you wanted to do some sort of penalty for JPs with GLs and flamers you could do something akin the the run speed change they did, where the JP expends more fuel if you have a heavier weapon. Personally, I would rather just see a pres cost increase on the JP as that has the potential to solve another problem that just so happens to be related to this one (rampant JP use).
Or if you wanted to do some sort of penalty for JPs with GLs and flamers you could do something akin the the run speed change they did, where the JP expends more fuel if you have a heavier weapon. Personally, I would rather just see a pres cost increase on the JP as that has the potential to solve another problem that just so happens to be related to this one (rampant JP use).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would rather see a penalty when using jetpacks, so there is a reason to not use it besides saving pres.
eg jetpack reduces armour, exosuit you cannot jump and move slowly.
My suggestion is something along the lines of the FT stripping away armor quickly with slight hp damage
I personally think it makes sense to have armor torched away quickly to encourage retreat and lack of combat effectiveness, rather than have frustrating "negative abilities" like energy removal. Yes this means you can still swipe or bite if you have energy, but you are at a severe combat disadvantage now if there is anything other than a FTer around as well.
This approach, much like the GL or shotgun, would require another weapon(s) nearby, if you wanted to finish them off, keeping roles/tradeoffs/teamwork in play appropriately. Then adjust the prices across the board to 25 pres for all the upgraded weapons and balance them accordingly. (like 50% less player dmg from grenades!)
<b>Frustrating mechanics fixed. Non counterable FT+JP fixed. Roles fixed. <i>And this would finally give you that oh so coveted Onos counter you want.</i></b>
Oh, infestation/cysts are still highly flammable tho, as it's still a great AoE weapon.
In other words a Bilebomb blowtorch.
I'm okay with this.
I'm okay with this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah so am I.
Flamethrowers are a hefty investment. You're trading away the ability to (reasonably) kill aliens, As well as spending a large amount of res on the weapon.
If you see a marine running around with a flamethrower, Would you complain then? He's on the ground with limited movement. Easy prey for Skulks and fades.
But then you add a jetpack and one of the major downsides to using a flamethrower is massively lessened (Same can be said for any weapon in the game)
I personally recommend an increase to the price of jetpacks. If it costs 25PRES for a jetpack, And 35? for a flamethrower. That's 60pres. 60pres and that marine will have difficulty killing anything still.
A single bite from a lerk who swoops in and swoops out will take a steady toll on the life of the marine to the point a single bite, spike, or swipe will kill him
But what if he moves in group with other marines? They will protect him with their rifles and shotguns, removing the final weakness of the flamethrower wielding marine.
-The inability to effectively kill lifeforms.
So since being in a group and having a jetpack effectively removes all the drawbacks from using the flamethrower, Should being nearby other marines be nerfed? Should sticking next to your buddy make your weapons weaker?
The entire role of the flamethrower is about support and structure killing, Not killing players. It's near impossible to kill a SMART alien while using the flamethrower.
I hope you're understanding the point i'm making
The flamethrower in of itself, is for the most part fine. (I'd like to see it kill cysts/non-hive structures much faster, but eh. Whatever)
But when you add certain qualities to the external force (player upgrades) It can become "Too Good" and have nearly all the flaws to using it alleviated.
Remember that in NS1, spores were the anti-jetpack technique. Use spores to soften up the JP's then a skulk can one-bite them. I don't really see this tactic in use in this game. Perhaps spores needs to be changed?
+1
Hypermutation should be replaced by Adrenaline.
Cost affects frequency of interaction, not the actual mechanics of the interaction. Fix the interaction, then adjust cost to desired frequency.
<!--quoteo(post=1950309:date=Jul 10 2012, 04:23 AM:name=Krovakon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krovakon @ Jul 10 2012, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The entire role of the flamethrower is about support and structure killing, Not killing players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is where it's role is competing/overlapping with the GL, and as such failing. IMO it should be combat support and infestation removal, but not structure killing.
<!--quoteo(post=1950309:date=Jul 10 2012, 04:23 AM:name=Krovakon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krovakon @ Jul 10 2012, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The flamethrower in of itself, is for the most part fine.
But when you add certain qualities to the external force (player upgrades) It can become "Too Good" and have nearly all the flaws to using it alleviated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its one of the most complained about weapons, and has been for over 6 months??
It's role is not clearly defined, it's effects on gameplay are not clearly evident to the user, it's role overlaps with other weapons, it's a frustrating "negavite ability", and as such its often skipped competitively for something far more useful.
The upgrades, such as the JP merely highlight the downsides of this weapon which you typically dont notice as well because you are able to physically reach the marine - this changes with JPs.
<b>Fix the role.</b> Make it support and take away the negative abilities, and it will become a balanced, viable option.