Flamethrower and jetpacks, what to do?
TimMc
Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
<div class="IPBDescription">imba?!</div>Its been really bugging me. Flamers sap energy, which all the lifeforms capable of countering a jetpack need in order to kill them. Should a marine be allowed to engage god-mode like this?
Personally I think flamers do pathetic damage currently, so I would like them to get a good damage improvement, but gain a backpack for fuel which will give a reason why they cannot be used alongside a jetpack.
Personally I think flamers do pathetic damage currently, so I would like them to get a good damage improvement, but gain a backpack for fuel which will give a reason why they cannot be used alongside a jetpack.
Comments
Which would get you killed because you need that energy to use your escape abilities (blink/leap). Even more so since shadow step costs energy now too.
By the moment Engadgment starts they are generally on fire. Ok you land that one hit. Now you have nothing to hit again at which point you gotta line up the next shot avoid his. And hope he doesn't get healed.you can't pull out to get healing as he gains ground and gets healed. If you have friends not so bad.
Gorge web should help with this. But we are yet to see it. Play test it. And it's been several patches and builds with out a hard counter to jp and or jp flamers. With not many builds or patches to go. To level or balance out gorge Webb vs jps and or jp flamers. If flamers burn webs we have a issue.
For some reason cos they keep mentioning spider gorge. And that it's not like NS 1 web. I get this visual of the gorge launching a ghook style web that is like a reverse barnical in hl. At which point the gorge becomes a anchor and the web the tether sort of like fishing. It makes me sad yet brings a smile to my face at the same time for the comedy value. I just hop it's nothing like that. Maybe it's a spit that travels a distance then spreads as a web like the spider unit in donkey kong.
Unless the spider is a whole nother kharaa class life form.
Yeah by walking up to a JP...cause you have no blink, shadow step or leap without energy. So you can see how well this will work w/ no energy.
Flame has always sapped your energy level but it seem even more extreme in this build.
Personally I think flamers do pathetic damage currently, so I would like them to get a good damage improvement, but gain a backpack for fuel which will give a reason why they cannot be used alongside a jetpack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are aware the damage increases a lot if you keep the flame on your target?
Also aliens need adren really really bad.
I had a lot of games now and its always the same, aliens can't do much about jp + flamethrower / grenade launcher spam.
A marine takes 3 hits by any alien class to get killed at level 0 armor, i guess 6 hits if they are nanoshielded.
So how can a alien kill a marine if the alien has no energy left?
Did charlie not said they won't take player controll much?
But if a alien can not attack and is forced to run away, how unfair is that?
There is no way as alien to prevent get burned, every alien class except lerk spikes and gorge spits have to be close combat!
In NaSe 1 you could shoot spores, webs, eat the marine or even use accid rockets or blink to them, spore them, because there wasn't a "energy taking flamethrower"!
A hint, don't only notice the forum people, go into some public games and watch the people, specialy aliens.
Aliens are very helpless if mariens got jetpacks, flamethrowers and all the stuff.
Sure marines are easy to kill if aliens have more then 1 onos, but thats not the part i was talking about, im talking about flamethrower and jetpacks and the counterpart of aliens to that... if a marine burn the onos it can't attack anymore.
Also its not that onos is very cheap, most of the time you have to save the whole game to go onos and even then marines have jetpacks and you can't do anything.
Yes trolls, its like that, you will troll anyway, but its fact that a onos can't do anything in the big rooms of ns2 and there are a lot big rooms where a jetpack marine can fly on something you can't reach.
Im sure, if you put the best players in both teams, marines will win, because of their abilitys.
Merged them for you guys.
---
While I'm posting here; I agree that JP+flamers are too strong. I've never been a big fan of the flamethrower sapping energy myself.
I think this is one of those balance issues that are easier to assess when the game performance goes up. Now, it's tough to get to any JP with for instance a skulk. When you don't have to re-jump several times because you keep missing, perhaps taking these flying flaming chaps down becomes easier as well.
But ignoring the problem doesn't really solve it and pretty much confirms my own subconscious distaste for flamers.
Better performance would also mean that the jetpackers can fight better, not only that the aliens get a "buff".
Out of personal experience, I feel like I'm more in control with a jetpack than with a skulk/fade right now, despite the performance. Others might disagree.
As for Kharaa, if I see a marine with a flamer I just make sure to leave when I still have 50% energy left. Instead of worrying about my health, against flamers I worry about energy. No problem there. :p
Maybe fade swipe needs a buff, cause I rarely see them in any games these days and they would be a great jp counter
But what I miss alot in NS2 is that a team focuses for the AA, Armslab or Proto, we had long games that Aliens almost had no chance till I managed to get some PPL to kill the AA then the Proto. If you manage this the marines will struggle alot. Also vortexing the Armslab can be a good counter against JP & Flamer because the are a 2 bites 1 Para again.
The only concern I habe is, that JP can be for to long in the Air.
So just keep the marines with an LMG? Even the LMG is quite useful with the Jetpack (I actually tend to use LMG's quite a lot, even with jetpacks, despite having the res for upgrades), but it's not a bad idea. Would add some kind of negative side effect to the jetpack to make it less of a mandatory upgrade once researched.
Maybe put hand thrown grenades back in as an upgrade for jp/LMGers :D
They are scary up close though, even a3 marines go down in like 2.5 seconds. Pity you have to be in nigh melee range, still that is not much of a problem (and maybe even an advantage) against flamers. Neverthless the fact of the matter is that having one lifeform in which jp/flamers are not too problematic does not justify them being absolutely enraging and frustrating for all the other lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=1949949:date=Jul 8 2012, 05:17 PM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Jul 8 2012, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->easy solution is to just not allow or heavily penalize a JP marine using a Flamethrower or a Grenade Launcher<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is not very intuitive (not much of an argument but the dev team value intuitive design), I would prefer some sort of buff to aliens rather than a nerf to marines (something like adding adren and focus).
<!--quoteo(post=1949869:date=Jul 8 2012, 08:39 AM:name=Zomb3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Jul 8 2012, 08:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949869"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I usually go for the other guys without the flamers before I deal with the flamer.
But ignoring the problem doesn't really solve it and pretty much confirms my own subconscious distaste for flamers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If anything this is a worse strategy, since the flamer can still attack you even if you ignore them (things have mad range!)
<!--quoteo(post=1949888:date=Jul 8 2012, 10:19 AM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Jul 8 2012, 10:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949888"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Out of personal experience, I feel like I'm more in control with a jetpack than with a skulk/fade right now, despite the performance. Others might disagree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, the ability to gradually accelerate in any direction is very helpful. Combined with a range weapon of course (this makes most of the difference I think, I for one experience the most difficulties with aliens not because I cant get close to marines but because killing them is such a pain in the ass what with their jump, my tiny view angle, lag and small energy pool.
I'd allow shotguns, i don't consider that to be a "heavy weapon". but 1 other thing is i don't like GL's with jetpacks because JP's negates the weakness of the weapon. there's no longer the threat of having your face chewed off in melee if you can just fly away.
I've always thought it was daft that jetpacks have no penalty, even if it was something like an armour penalty. For 10 res, there is no reason not to get a jetpack.
I think I like the idea of 'no heavy weapons' with a jetpack though. LMG and shotguns only. Grenade launchers can deal massive damage since whips are no longer a good counter - the marine is far away by the time the grenade bounces back. All the while aliens are desperately trying to stop this lone marine from dealing massive damage to the base. This is a big problem in warehouse, and other large hive rooms, not so much in little ones.
However a 'no heavy weapons' penalty would further enforce the mentality of ARCing it up. I far prefer being grenaded to death by jetpackers than having ARCs appear. Killing these static, high health NPCs is boring.
If you have difficulties fighting against something that cost 40 res, well....that's the point of it. And even then, a FT is not a weapon that kills easily. It does some damage, it's really annoying for higher lifeforms, but it's far from being ultimate. Just use skulks against it, because it's the lifeform that depends the less on its energy and you are fast enough to fight them, even if they flies around. Also, skulks are free, so you can waste 1 or 2 of them to take out a FT + JP without res penalty.
Flamethrowers don't kill aliens. Guns do. :P
Ok, I'm not going to pretend like there's no problem here but many of the comments so far have been 2 dimensional. Talking about posts that read like "As an alien, FT should have no impact on my playstyle, strategies or kills per hour". Tell us how your tactics change when a FT is in play and how you're <i>still</i> not able to overcome an FT/JP combo.
Clearly as some others have already pointed out, the FT is a support weapon. Yes, it ramps up damage but the effect is so slow as to only be effective on structures. Any sensible creature will run away before the ramp-up takes effect. Skulk vs JP/FT, noob skulk strategy: keep persuing/biting until the FT/JP is dead; shocked and outrage when it doesn't work. Sensible strategies: attrition; run around evasively to sap the ammo; wait for reloads; wait for the marine to attack a building; stay alive and prevent the marine from having unrestricted access to attack your buildings. Once again, get the focus away from deathmatch mentality.
Don't forget, FT/JP combo has been penalised a bit already because of the reduced flight-time.
Fade vs JP/FT is probalby the only thing that needs work given that fades are one of the few lifeforms that can deal with JPers. But keep in mind FT is one of the few ways marines can deal with fades (except while the shotgun remains OP with its <i>normal</i> damage).
Effective at sapping lifeforms energy regen. Effective at killing structures. Ramp up damage can and will kill you, but lerk poison bite can neither ramp up, nor kill you from poison alone... hilarious. No energy to escape so jps can easily chase you down, so the "hard to kill with ft" is moot.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guys, Flame + Jetpack cost 40 res to buy. It's the most costly combo for a marine (except if you buy tons of mines, but that's another story).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades are 50 res plus 1/2/3 res for upgrades that marines get automatically applied for free. Lets make it so that when a fade hit you, you're unable to reload your weapon for 10 seconds. Fades are 10 resources more than jp/ft so it seems only fair, right?
<!--quoteo(post=1950009:date=Jul 9 2012, 01:44 AM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Jul 9 2012, 01:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950009"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades just need more control over their blink in order to better close with jps. If blink shifts the fades dimension, why is it still so affected by gravity? (skulks need better climbing power on leap too)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't make a difference. All it takes is a tiny hit from a w+m1 jp/ft to ruin your ######. A good jp/ft marine will bobble in the air waiting for a fade to get close enough just to ignite them, then as the fade makes a futile attempt to escape and uses all their energy, the jp/ft marine will just follow them then torch the slow ass fade. So glad shadow step costs energy... really great change.
Effective at sapping lifeforms energy regen. Effective at killing structures. Ramp up damage can and will kill you, but lerk poison bite can neither ramp up, nor kill you from poison alone... hilarious. No energy to escape so jps can easily chase you down, so the "hard to kill with ft" is moot.
Fades are 50 res plus 1/2/3 res for upgrades that marines get automatically applied for free. Lets make it so that when a fade hit you, you're unable to reload your weapon for 10 seconds. Fades are 10 resources more than jp/ft so it seems only fair, right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You didn't read all my post. FT are good against high lifeforms because they attack energy, but they don't kill. It's a really average weapon against skulk though. Use skulks to kill or distract the flamer. You have a 0 res lifeform to counter the 40 res weapon, I don't see the problem.
I've been in games that prove you wrong.