<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->Actually I'd argue it's hardly improved the group fragmentation in return for a steeply increased/more awkward respawn time, I've played plenty of pub games before and after this inclusion and personally I find it to be at worst a negative feature and at best a pointless one. You simply aren't going to force anyone to group together that way if they weren't going to put the minimal effort to do so in the first place. What you do get is people already with the sense to group being punished, while the others running with the one or two that spawn with them eventually fragmenting anyways.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I disagree. It should not and does not force the player to teamplay. It just makes it easier to travel together without the need of waiting for another player to spawn to attack together. Who does not want to play in a team, is not forced to do so. That's intentional. But for those that do like to play in a team, it made things easier.
That it prolonged the spawn times was just because of a too high chosen spawn time. (20sec in the first run?) If you have 10 or 8 seconds, you spawn in the average case after 5 or 4 seconds. I think this is not too long.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
If spawn times for wave spawn are lowered, there will be a return to the hated zombie/zerg rush style gameplay that was prevalent before the current wave spawn was implemented.
Not to say this idea is perfect, but it's food for thought:
When you die, you are placed into a vacant egg immediately if one is available, and can respawn without delay, as per previous builds. However, <i>the eggs themselves</i> respawn in small waves - say, three at a time - and the maximum number of eggs per hive is reduced. Egg respawn rate scales <i>slightly</i> with enemy team size.
Benefits: <ul><li>You can figure out how it works just by looking at it.</li><li>It scales sensibly with hive count.</li><li>The ability to hatch out of eggs as soon as they appear means that potential spawncamping targets aren't sitting ducks for very long.</li><li>Multiple eggs appearing at once further hinders spawncamping by distributing targets.</li><li>Because the spawn rate is directly determined by entities on the field, players on both teams have better control over it. (Corollary: If the aliens are still spawncamped anyway, it's less frustrating, because at least it's caused by something they did wrong rather than the whims of a mysterious invisible clock.)</li><li>It's easier to tweak for balance because all of the parameters, and the consequences of changing them, are clearly defined.</li></ul> Addendum: The first hive doesn't start with any eggs, so you don't start with an instant full team respawn in the bank - you have to build them up by not dying often. (There'd be a big problem with early-game Skulkrushing otherwise.)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1948860:date=Jul 4 2012, 05:45 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 4 2012, 05:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948860"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The egg spawn system doesn't fulfill the purpose it was invented for in the first place; to prevent spawncamping. It also introduces new gameplay problems. So why is it still in the game?
What was the purpose behind the wave spawn system?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I Agree, and to answer your question: <!--quoteo(post=1948902:date=Jul 4 2012, 07:47 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 4 2012, 07:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there will be a return to the hated zombie/zerg rush style gameplay that was prevalent before the current wave spawn was implemented.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This system severely fails in large player counts, and it also compounds / double penalizes aliens with no pres while dead, as it can be up to a minute sometimes without receiving pres - as opposed to the fixed time for marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1948902:date=Jul 4 2012, 04:47 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 4 2012, 04:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If spawn times for wave spawn are lowered, there will be a return to the hated zombie/zerg rush style gameplay that was prevalent before the current wave spawn was implemented.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't believe this will happen when the numbers are chosen right. I like the mechanic of having aliens attacking in waves / groups. And as I stated here: <!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A relatively simple system would be to have a spawn wave every 8 (or maybe 10) seconds. ... <b>If there are not enough eggs for all dead players, the player gets a message stating that fact and he has to wait for the next spawn wave.</b> If a player had to wait because of missing eggs, a new egg is created to ensure that no player has to wait more than two spawn waves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This will prevent that this rush tactic is viable more than once. Because than you have up to 20 seconds before the next rush is spawned. Maybe 30 seconds before it reaches your base. You could even adjust it more with tweaking the spawn wave timer. (12 seconds maybe?)
I'm sure it can work this way the old wave-spawn-system (that was not capped to a max of 3(?) respawns at one time) could have worked with the right numbers.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Possibly, but Necro, that doesn't address the problem of no pres accumulation during that 30 seconds compared to the 11 or whatever that marines experience? Or are we all in agreement about that mechanic not working?
<!--quoteo(post=1949195:date=Jul 5 2012, 10:29 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 5 2012, 10:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Possibly, but Necro, that doesn't address the problem of no pres accumulation during that 30 seconds compared to the 11 or whatever that marines experience? Or are we all in agreement about that mechanic not working?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would agree that the no res while dead mechanic isn't working. Best example is the late game skulk which is supposed to xeno...
<!--quoteo(post=1948909:date=Jul 4 2012, 11:46 AM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ Jul 4 2012, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948909"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you die, you are placed into a vacant egg immediately if one is available, and can respawn without delay, as per previous builds. However, <i>the eggs themselves</i> respawn in small waves - say, three at a time - and the maximum number of eggs per hive is reduced. Egg respawn rate scales <i>slightly</i> with enemy team size.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Isn't this exactly what it used to be (without the waves)? Anyway, I liked it before. Doing a solo base rush and taking out a few eggs could actually make an impact but it seems pretty futile now.
edit: oh, you said as per previous builds. I agree though
So why am I waiting to spawn when there are eggs just lying there free to use? There is no logical reason why. It's extremely unintuitive and really takes you out of the FPS experience.
Are aliens beamed into eggs from a capital ship based on set timers? Why does a skulk that died 10 seconds later than another skulk spawn at the exact same time?
It doesn't make any sense. Aliens have Eggs. They should be spawning in whenever one is available.
@Krovakon: The cause is, that the aliens shouldn't instantly respawn after death. Because this would lead to an imbalance against marines, who wouldn't be able to hold out against such a stream of incoming aliens. But lore wise, you are right. It is a bit illogical. But is it a real problem?
If it helps you: The aliens biological system and egg-breeding process depends on an undiscovered formula based on the chaos theory. Somehow there seems to be a connection between the dying of one alien and the birth of a new one. But TSA scientists couldn't discover why and how the timing is estimated from the hive. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1949195:date=Jul 5 2012, 06:29 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 5 2012, 06:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Possibly, but Necro, that doesn't address the problem of no pres accumulation during that 30 seconds compared to the 11 or whatever that marines experience? Or are we all in agreement about that mechanic not working?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm really not sure if that mechanic does work or not in general. But a simple (and cleaner) solution would be to withdraw 1 pRes per death from the player instead of this dynamical implementation. But this again would erase the difference of lost pRes between a team with many RTs against a team with less RTs. I'm not even sure if this is intentional.
hmmm if spawn camping is the issue, why not give eggs a bonus linked to the different hives
so
crag hive : eggs have more armor shade hive : eggs are always cloaked shift hive : aliens spawn a little faster
as for no res for death, i think its failing. It only really penalizing skulks, all other lifeforms stay alive for a long time compared to a skulk. What no res for deaths is doing is its delaying lerks, fades, onos until a bit later in the game. I would rather have res for kills and then make aliens start with 0 P.res
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1949366:date=Jul 6 2012, 03:07 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Jul 6 2012, 03:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hmmm if spawn camping is the issue, why not give eggs a bonus linked to the different hives
so
crag hive : eggs have more armor shade hive : eggs are always cloaked shift hive : aliens spawn a little faster
as for no res for death, i think its failing. It only really penalizing skulks, all other lifeforms stay alive for a long time compared to a skulk. What no res for deaths is doing is its delaying lerks, fades, onos until a bit later in the game. I would rather have res for kills and then make aliens start with 0 P.res<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Both the long respawn queue and no-res-during-dead are both major problems, that will hopefully be fixed soon.
As for egg bonuses, they already exist! Crags heal eggs, Shades cloak eggs, and Shifts spawn extra eggs (which is being debugged).
I agree with op i've seen marines i just killed before i died back to an equally distanced area from both spawns back there before myself as a skulk with leap.
I've also waited over 30 secs to spawn before. It atleast felt like 30 secs, it was WAY too long.
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->I'm curious why other than delaying spawns of aliens which could have been done another way and has.. Why did of the two teams did the Kharaa get the wave-spawning feature? The marines rely far more on staying in groups simply on the basis of ranged vs. Melee. Aside from IP numbers, which I've seen many times in large numbers, (which is tremendously effective at continuous zerging of a hive if you've ever seen it) really why did the Kharaa get this feature and them only?
Edit: Not to mention that the Kharaa have the mobility to group easier than marines pre-phase already so I find this spawn thing pointless for them to have exclusively. If we're really going to keep this needless complexity of the spawn system anyways. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I've taken a perverse liking to the Kharaa spawn system. I can spam tab to check whether or not it's an optimal time for me to risk a death, or to berate the team for clogging respawn too heavily. It's like a minigame. Minigame of DEATH.
The current system is pretty bad. By the time I get to even go fade the marines already have JP's blasting the ###### out of everything. If you do die as a lifeform goodluck getting the res to back to lifeform cause you'll be dying non-stop as a skulk and getting no res unless you camp which hurts your team greatly. The point of a skulk is to harass and that has been taken away by this awful no res while dead experiment. Xenocide? The hells the point.. you get no res.
The wave respawn is just god awful. Early game 2-3 marines happen to kill a bunch of skulks.. those skulks have to wait 16+ seconds.. by that time marines are shooting the eggs down. Now guess what? Games already over cause aliens are not respawning and marines expanding everywhere. Not to mention the buggyness of waiting then not spawning and waiting again.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Its a big focus for us Playtesters, and in discussion in many forms.. cant say for sure what will happen though, <i>but know that it has more than just our attention.</i> (Try anything over 20 players and you will see how broken it is.. 50+ seconds of waiting!)
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
My thought on spawning: aliens should spawn individualy, but marines in waves. This makes more sense, as infantry portals are just that, portals. and eggs are a gestation period, how does a gestion come in a wave, but a marine spawning in from someone else, come individualy? huh?
<!--quoteo(post=1949857:date=Jul 8 2012, 11:05 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Jul 8 2012, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My thought on spawning: aliens should spawn individualy, but marines in waves. This makes more sense, as infantry portals are just that, portals. and eggs are a gestation period, how does a gestion come in a wave, but a marine spawning in from someone else, come individualy? huh?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What problem does wave-spawning for marines solve exactly?
Worst was: I died and for about 7 sec there was written in the middle of the screen "waiting for spawn" after these seconds a new text "next spawn in 18sec" appeared. Why the hell do i have wait nearly half a minute for respawn when we have 2 hives with way than more enough eggs.
Comments
That it prolonged the spawn times was just because of a too high chosen spawn time. (20sec in the first run?)
If you have 10 or 8 seconds, you spawn in the average case after 5 or 4 seconds. I think this is not too long.
When you die, you are placed into a vacant egg immediately if one is available, and can respawn without delay, as per previous builds. However, <i>the eggs themselves</i> respawn in small waves - say, three at a time - and the maximum number of eggs per hive is reduced. Egg respawn rate scales <i>slightly</i> with enemy team size.
Benefits:
<ul><li>You can figure out how it works just by looking at it.</li><li>It scales sensibly with hive count.</li><li>The ability to hatch out of eggs as soon as they appear means that potential spawncamping targets aren't sitting ducks for very long.</li><li>Multiple eggs appearing at once further hinders spawncamping by distributing targets.</li><li>Because the spawn rate is directly determined by entities on the field, players on both teams have better control over it.
(Corollary: If the aliens are still spawncamped anyway, it's less frustrating, because at least it's caused by something they did wrong rather than the whims of a mysterious invisible clock.)</li><li>It's easier to tweak for balance because all of the parameters, and the consequences of changing them, are clearly defined.</li></ul>
Addendum: The first hive doesn't start with any eggs, so you don't start with an instant full team respawn in the bank - you have to build them up by not dying often. (There'd be a big problem with early-game Skulkrushing otherwise.)
Thoughts?
What was the purpose behind the wave spawn system?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I Agree, and to answer your question:
<!--quoteo(post=1948902:date=Jul 4 2012, 07:47 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 4 2012, 07:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there will be a return to the hated zombie/zerg rush style gameplay that was prevalent before the current wave spawn was implemented.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This system severely fails in large player counts, and it also compounds / double penalizes aliens with no pres while dead, as it can be up to a minute sometimes without receiving pres - as opposed to the fixed time for marines.
I don't believe this will happen when the numbers are chosen right. I like the mechanic of having aliens attacking in waves / groups. And as I stated here:
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A relatively simple system would be to have a spawn wave every 8 (or maybe 10) seconds.
...
<b>If there are not enough eggs for all dead players, the player gets a message stating that fact and he has to wait for the next spawn wave.</b>
If a player had to wait because of missing eggs, a new egg is created to ensure that no player has to wait more than two spawn waves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This will prevent that this rush tactic is viable more than once. Because than you have up to 20 seconds before the next rush is spawned. Maybe 30 seconds before it reaches your base. You could even adjust it more with tweaking the spawn wave timer. (12 seconds maybe?)
I'm sure it can work this way the old wave-spawn-system (that was not capped to a max of 3(?) respawns at one time) could have worked with the right numbers.
I would agree that the no res while dead mechanic isn't working. Best example is the late game skulk which is supposed to xeno...
Isn't this exactly what it used to be (without the waves)? Anyway, I liked it before. Doing a solo base rush and taking out a few eggs could actually make an impact but it seems pretty futile now.
edit: oh, you said as per previous builds. I agree though
Are aliens beamed into eggs from a capital ship based on set timers?
Why does a skulk that died 10 seconds later than another skulk spawn at the exact same time?
It doesn't make any sense. Aliens have Eggs. They should be spawning in whenever one is available.
If it helps you: The aliens biological system and egg-breeding process depends on an undiscovered formula based on the chaos theory. Somehow there seems to be a connection between the dying of one alien and the birth of a new one. But TSA scientists couldn't discover why and how the timing is estimated from the hive. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1949195:date=Jul 5 2012, 06:29 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 5 2012, 06:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Possibly, but Necro, that doesn't address the problem of no pres accumulation during that 30 seconds compared to the 11 or whatever that marines experience? Or are we all in agreement about that mechanic not working?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm really not sure if that mechanic does work or not in general. But a simple (and cleaner) solution would be to withdraw 1 pRes per death from the player instead of this dynamical implementation. But this again would erase the difference of lost pRes between a team with many RTs against a team with less RTs. I'm not even sure if this is intentional.
so
crag hive : eggs have more armor
shade hive : eggs are always cloaked
shift hive : aliens spawn a little faster
as for no res for death, i think its failing. It only really penalizing skulks, all other lifeforms stay alive for a long time compared to a skulk. What no res for deaths is doing is its delaying lerks, fades, onos until a bit later in the game. I would rather have res for kills and then make aliens start with 0 P.res
so
crag hive : eggs have more armor
shade hive : eggs are always cloaked
shift hive : aliens spawn a little faster
as for no res for death, i think its failing. It only really penalizing skulks, all other lifeforms stay alive for a long time compared to a skulk. What no res for deaths is doing is its delaying lerks, fades, onos until a bit later in the game. I would rather have res for kills and then make aliens start with 0 P.res<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both the long respawn queue and no-res-during-dead are both major problems, that will hopefully be fixed soon.
As for egg bonuses, they already exist! Crags heal eggs, Shades cloak eggs, and Shifts spawn extra eggs (which is being debugged).
I've also waited over 30 secs to spawn before. It atleast felt like 30 secs, it was WAY too long.
Why did of the two teams did the Kharaa get the wave-spawning feature? The marines rely far more on staying in groups simply on the basis of ranged vs. Melee. Aside from IP numbers, which I've seen many times in large numbers, (which is tremendously effective at continuous zerging of a hive if you've ever seen it) really why did the Kharaa get this feature and them only?
Edit: Not to mention that the Kharaa have the mobility to group easier than marines pre-phase already so I find this spawn thing pointless for them to have exclusively. If we're really going to keep this needless complexity of the spawn system anyways. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The current system is pretty bad. By the time I get to even go fade the marines already have JP's blasting the ###### out of everything. If you do die as a lifeform goodluck getting the res to back to lifeform cause you'll be dying non-stop as a skulk and getting no res unless you camp which hurts your team greatly. The point of a skulk is to harass and that has been taken away by this awful no res while dead experiment. Xenocide? The hells the point.. you get no res.
The wave respawn is just god awful. Early game 2-3 marines happen to kill a bunch of skulks.. those skulks have to wait 16+ seconds.. by that time marines are shooting the eggs down. Now guess what? Games already over cause aliens are not respawning and marines expanding everywhere. Not to mention the buggyness of waiting then not spawning and waiting again.
IPs shoudl be working the same way too btw
What problem does wave-spawning for marines solve exactly?
Worst was:
I died and for about 7 sec there was written in the middle of the screen "waiting for spawn" after these seconds a new text "next spawn in 18sec" appeared. Why the hell do i have wait nearly half a minute for respawn when we have 2 hives with way than more enough eggs.