<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A 2 hive lock IS hard to win from but not Impossable. <b>It all depeneds on early Marine game.. </b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heheh, yes the part in bold is the problem and what everyone is a bit upset about <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The point I see people missing over and over is that only the Marines benefit from an early rush. If their initial rush fails it's no loss since they respawn quickly. They can continue to rush hives until they do succeed. When they do, game over.
For aliens to get a rush win they have to have a hive close to the Marine start and hope that the marines are lousy shots. Rush in and kill all Marines and/or IPs and/or the com chair. If they don't succeed then they are screwed waiting minutes to spawn in.
If only one team has the chance to win with an early rush then the game is not balanced. Period.
The key to balancing this is to put the phase gate further up the tech tree. To get a phase gate you should need:
I dont mean the traditional (and wholey ineffective) skulk rush. I mean the rush for 2 hives, 1 gorge 3 RP's skulks covering ~ fades less than 10 mins.
that idea to move the phase up the tech tree sounds very good to me... something should change about the phase gate. I played in a server recently where the marines won by rushing 5 minutes 4 games in a row. What they would do is 2 ip's armory obs phase then move out, build a phase outside hive, then start lmg'ing it. Of couse that 5th game came around and we aliens had grown wise to it, 2 skulks waited outside their spawn for the rush to leave, and once they did we ate the obs, so they couldn't build a phase and get back, and then the rest of their base. Yeah so they still got the hive... but we returned in time to get the last marine as the counter was ticking ... mmm best 5 minute game ever
anyway the game would be better if you couldn't get phase so soon, or it was easier to disable so either...
add an obs upgrade to phase, not nessecarily expensive, but should take a minute or two
make it so that phase gates power down when the obs is eaten (<i>like it says in the manual and makes sense HINT HINT)</i>)
if phase wasn't such a viable option maybe there would be more tech battles?
The problem I've seen is not the 5 minute game but the 15 minute downward spiral in which marines have no chance to win as fades slowly wear down the defenses. Mostly, however, the problem lies in the marines lack of ability to coordinate well enough to ignore fades and truck to a siege point to take a hive down. I don't think what we are seeing is a serious balance problem - if anything, fades may be slightly overpowered but only when taken into consideration with good use of umbra.
I disagree rebo, I find my tactics work just fine. I wouldn't have suggested them otherwise. To be fair, my boys do have more coordination than a grade 8 dance, but that's what makes them special.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Make short work of the troops with rushing skulks, and kill the phase gate right away <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
my clan is #2nd in clanbase, not lost a game yet, rushing is far too easy, when pro teams start playing all we get is 5/5 min draws for both sides *fun*
Bring out marine vs. marines and I wont have to worry about the balance of two completely different sides.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bring out marine vs. marines and I wont have to worry about the balance of two completely different sides. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completly different sides is what makes this mod so great.
I've read through this whole thread and taking it into account for balancing. I'll be making a number of balance changes after Xmas, but it will require extensive testing and a client update as well. Thanks!
if one team is superior in skill then why should they have to waste an hour of their time taking out a bunch of unskilled losers...<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I brought up pretty much the same thing in a thread a few days ago: <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=16589&hl=' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...f=1&t=16589&hl=</a>
What Rebo says is spot on, I haven't read the whole thread because I really can't be arsed but I'd imagine it's full of people saying 'it's not hard to retake a hive' 'marines can kill fades' or 'lerks/skulks can take on marine bases' etc etc etc ... which is all simply wrong if your playing against a team with half a clue of what to do and in general, worldwide, the standard of play is not high enough to understand this. It is a race to 2 hives and he's also right in saying it will kill NS if not sorted out which would be a shame because it's massive potential.
Lazerus it's clearly a problem and not the way the games intended to be played simply because they've spent all this time on Heavy Armour, Jetpacks, Onos, Fades, Shotguns, HMGs, Gren launchers and various other upgrades yet they don't even come into the game, at all.
The problem is not with the game but with skill and teamwork parity. The team with the best skill to teamwork ratio will win everytime. It doesnt take a massive amount of fire power [bite power;)] to stop a rush, from either side. Everyone said rushing will kill Starcraft too...
Its been said that whoever gets two hives first always wins. I played a game last night that lasted three hours, one of the best I've ever had. The aliens captured two hives, the marines had the third. Then the marines took a second, and the aliens took the other one. We traded hives for over three hours before the aliens finally got the upper hand.
Another game I played, marines had two hives and were about to win the game. Aliens put up a hive in one of the captured hives behind the marines back, and overwhelmed the marines from behind to win.
Both of those games were on ns_caged btw, probably the best map of the lot.
<!--QuoteBegin--Aminal+Dec 20 2002, 07:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aminal @ Dec 20 2002, 07:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Savant+Dec 20 2002, 07:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Dec 20 2002, 07:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The '5 minute win' is a sign of poor balance and is something that should be looked at.
For those who think that the 5 minute rush is essential to NS, perhaps you should go back to CS where all the games are 5 minutes.
The point here is that people want a good game, not a fast game.
There is a difference.
Regards,
Savant<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i><b>The '5 minute win' is a sign of poor balance and is something that should be looked at.</b></i>
It is only a difference in the balance between marines/aliens, it is a balance issue with the players. If you are consistantly loosing in 5 mins to skulk rushes, then your marines are not good enough. Equally, if the marines phase two of your hives before you can get in there, then you've got a crap alien team.
The game should not be made harder/easier for people who are good/crap at it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> more like MARINE rushes skulks SUCK at rushing, they take a few hits to kill and can be easily knifed one marine is equal to 3-4 skulks depending on aim if you have **obscenity** aim I would say 1-2 skulks
this is all i read of this thread, and its more then enough to know that you're opinions are null and void
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont care how you do it, but it needs to end. I play exlusively with experienced players and we all agree that the 5 min game will be the death of NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you cant defend that initial skulk rush, then you're not playing with annnnnyyyyyy experience players, lol. Odds are if you died to that rush, you deserved it, heh
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->this is all i read of this thread, and its more then enough to know that you're opinions are null and void<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok its 11:06 pm and <b>YOUR OPINION IS NULL AND VOIDED</b> ok useless dragon like thingy, hehe
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you cant defend that initial skulk rush, then you're not playing with annnnnyyyyyy experience players, lol. Odds are if you died to that rush, you deserved it, heh <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh dear you really dont understand this game do you.
Problem is, you can't remove the ability for a team to screw up without destroying the game to do it. If the Gorge runs around building sensory towers everywhere, never grabs a resource point, and never gets a hive, the aliens are pretty hosed. If a commander tries to build a prototype lab and get heavy armor instead of an infantry portal, the marines are pretty hosed. But what would you do to fix that? Force the Gorges and comms to build in a set order? Force the marines to actually obey the comm instead of run out one at a time and be eaten by Skulks?
A competent group of players will not suffer from the 5-minute game syndrome. Competent marines cover the base entrances in anticipation of the Skulk rush. Competent Gorges grab resources to be able to be quick about that second hive and some defenses. Competent comms cover their troops. And competent players in general work as a team instead of running out willy-nilly to be killed.
If it's rushing that you want to prevent, I've seen a couple Team Fortress maps that have blast doors or force fields that keep teams in their bases for the first minute of the game. Long enough for humans to build the essentials in their base, both teams to decide who'll be commander or Gorge, and generally get everything in order before the game starts. I don't really think that's a necessary change to the game, but if the majority feels that a change needs to be made, then that's the one that I'd advocate.
Honestly, I do think that many of the 5-minute-games are a game balance issue.
The marines have the capabilities to spawn many at a time (As many as you have IP's).
They have the ability to teleport ANYWHERE in the map instantly. A marine team working as a group just drops down a phase in a hive and at spawn. Bam. There's an instantaneous portal from their spawn to the new hive. Let's say aliens take out two marines, the marines take out two aliens. Those two marines are both in and back in the hive before the 2nd alien can spawn in, and before the 1st can get to the hive.
Comm drops more IP's, it becomes even more pronounced. Anywhere the marines drop a phase gate, they can almost spawn in.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--SniperSkunk+Dec 21 2002, 12:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SniperSkunk @ Dec 21 2002, 12:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Honestly, I do think that many of the 5-minute-games are a game balance issue.
The marines have the capabilities to spawn many at a time (As many as you have IP's).
They have the ability to teleport ANYWHERE in the map instantly. A marine team working as a group just drops down a phase in a hive and at spawn. Bam. There's an instantaneous portal from their spawn to the new hive. Let's say aliens take out two marines, the marines take out two aliens. Those two marines are both in and back in the hive before the 2nd alien can spawn in, and before the 1st can get to the hive.
Comm drops more IP's, it becomes even more pronounced. Anywhere the marines drop a phase gate, they can almost spawn in.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, in large games it is ridicolous - one pitched battle in a 16v16 game leaving 12 dead on each side. After that, it will be 16 marines vs 4-10 aliens for the rest of the game until the marines win.
What is needed is a way for the Kharaa to control their spawn rate. Personally, I'm in favor of being able to pay 1-2 resources to be moved from dead to reinf mode - ie, pay and you spawn 20 seconds later, no matter how many others are dead/reinf'ing at the same time.
The problem as has been stated the ONLY option for marines is secure both hives defend using phases and tf's, any other option will lose you the game <i>usually</i>, there are/have been exceptions. I think this is the 5 minute game, although it won't be over in 5 minutes it is decided by then. (OK phase rush the 1st alien hive is another option imho more boring than anything else)
The problem with this is to get higher level equipment the marines just need to wait ages which is boring considering they can finish it as soon as they get ~100 res by setting up a seige. For aliens they need to get the hive, a very difficult proposition if the marine team is half organized.
Way's around this could be: The only reason the 2nd hive is so important is just 'fade prevention' as fades will come too quickly for the un-upgraded marines. So if the marines had more res they could tech quicker and rival the fades faster, this could be done a number of ways. More starting res or more res point in the marine base. The only problem is currently the marines would get both hives aswell but if there was a WoL by default in one of the none base hives this would stop them taking it. - MINOR CHANGE? obviously the ideal balance is if a fade and marine meet in the mid-game (away from any bases) they stand a equal chance. Maybe fades slighty stronger requiring 2 marines vs 1 fade is a definate win which atm it isn't.
I think having 4 hives could make the game so much better it's not believable. Lerks could be the 2-hive alien, have better resiliance and stronger attacks, and therefore be useful without umbra and spore. Fades would be the 3-hive alien, a very little stronger, but this would be OK because the lerks would actually be effective ranged attackers. Onos could be the same as ever with 4 hives needed.
Sounds like a good idea, but would be too drastic a change for the dev team to seriously consider.
All this talk of "experienced players" and "veterans" makes me laugh..Hello? It's been out since Halloween! Come back in a year, then you can claim to be an "experienced veteran" if you like..
Face it kids, the only "NS veterans" on the whole planet at the moment are the playtesters..
Also, I'm getting bored with this " NS is all wrong, here is what you should do to make it exactly how I want it to be."
Hey, I have a solution, learn to program , animate, map and model and make your own mod..
Noone is saying NS is all wrong, NS is probably the best game i have played ever, and yes that includes my original game of TFC which i played soley for over 3 years. Secondly it <b>is</b> possible to talk about experienced players etc, this is because they often come from a clanned TFC DoD or CS background and understand how to maximise advantage in the shortest possibile manner with the lowest risk. The optimum strategys have already been found, and the players who play to those strategys are hence experienced.
Comments
A 2 hive lock IS hard to win from but not Impossable. <b>It all depeneds on early Marine game.. </b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heheh, yes the part in bold is the problem and what everyone is a bit upset about <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
For aliens to get a rush win they have to have a hive close to the Marine start and hope that the marines are lousy shots. Rush in and kill all Marines and/or IPs and/or the com chair. If they don't succeed then they are screwed waiting minutes to spawn in.
If only one team has the chance to win with an early rush then the game is not balanced. Period.
The key to balancing this is to put the phase gate further up the tech tree. To get a phase gate you should need:
Comm. chair
Infantry portal
Armory
Turret Factory
Arms Lab
Observatory
Observatory upgrade
Phase Gate
In other words the Marine team should NOT be able to get a phase gate up with their starting resources.
With this minor change you would NEVER see marines take two hives right away, but they would still be able to easily take one hive.
From this point people would battle over hive #2 and it would not be a 'lock' in the first 5 minutes.
Regards,
Savant
anyway the game would be better if you couldn't get phase so soon, or it was easier to disable so either...
add an obs upgrade to phase, not nessecarily expensive, but should take a minute or two
make it so that phase gates power down when the obs is eaten (<i>like it says in the manual and makes sense HINT HINT)</i>)
if phase wasn't such a viable option maybe there would be more tech battles?
-
ol|confidential
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Make short work of the troops with rushing skulks, and kill the phase gate right away
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would just press the distress call buton :o
my clan is #2nd in clanbase, not lost a game yet, rushing is far too easy, when pro teams start playing all we get is 5/5 min draws for both sides *fun*
Bring out marine vs. marines and I wont have to worry about the balance of two completely different sides.
Completly different sides is what makes this mod so great.
"games not balanced.. i dont like rushing ... whaah whah wha.."
its idiodic.. go play a different game if you dont like it.. maybe parcheesy is more up your alley...
seriously. I (like many others im sure) dont have enough time to play a game thats 4 hours a match..
if teams are balanced (in skill) then there is no reason a game should only last 5 minutes..
i've had lots of games where the teams were fairly equal in skill that lasted hours.. too long imo...
gah.
-Laz
if one team is superior in skill then why should they have to waste an hour of their time taking out a bunch of unskilled losers...<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
gah again...
What Rebo says is spot on, I haven't read the whole thread because I really can't be arsed but I'd imagine it's full of people saying 'it's not hard to retake a hive' 'marines can kill fades' or 'lerks/skulks can take on marine bases' etc etc etc ... which is all simply wrong if your playing against a team with half a clue of what to do and in general, worldwide, the standard of play is not high enough to understand this. It is a race to 2 hives and he's also right in saying it will kill NS if not sorted out which would be a shame because it's massive potential.
Another game I played, marines had two hives and were about to win the game. Aliens put up a hive in one of the captured hives behind the marines back, and overwhelmed the marines from behind to win.
Both of those games were on ns_caged btw, probably the best map of the lot.
For those who think that the 5 minute rush is essential to NS, perhaps you should go back to CS where all the games are 5 minutes.
The point here is that people want a good game, not a fast game.
There is a difference.
Regards,
Savant<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i><b>The '5 minute win' is a sign of poor balance and is something that should be looked at.</b></i>
It is only a difference in the balance between marines/aliens, it is a balance issue with the players. If you are consistantly loosing in 5 mins to skulk rushes, then your marines are not good enough. Equally, if the marines phase two of your hives before you can get in there, then you've got a crap alien team.
The game should not be made harder/easier for people who are good/crap at it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
more like MARINE rushes
skulks SUCK at rushing, they take a few hits to kill and can be easily knifed
one marine is equal to 3-4 skulks depending on aim
if you have **obscenity** aim I would say 1-2 skulks
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont care how you do it, but it needs to end. I play exlusively with experienced players and we all agree that the 5 min game will be the death of NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you cant defend that initial skulk rush, then you're not playing with annnnnyyyyyy experience players, lol. Odds are if you died to that rush, you deserved it, heh
Ok its 11:06 pm and <b>YOUR OPINION IS NULL AND VOIDED</b> ok useless dragon like thingy, hehe
If you cant defend that initial skulk rush, then you're not playing with annnnnyyyyyy experience players, lol. Odds are if you died to that rush, you deserved it, heh
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh dear you really dont understand this game do you.
A competent group of players will not suffer from the 5-minute game syndrome. Competent marines cover the base entrances in anticipation of the Skulk rush. Competent Gorges grab resources to be able to be quick about that second hive and some defenses. Competent comms cover their troops. And competent players in general work as a team instead of running out willy-nilly to be killed.
If it's rushing that you want to prevent, I've seen a couple Team Fortress maps that have blast doors or force fields that keep teams in their bases for the first minute of the game. Long enough for humans to build the essentials in their base, both teams to decide who'll be commander or Gorge, and generally get everything in order before the game starts. I don't really think that's a necessary change to the game, but if the majority feels that a change needs to be made, then that's the one that I'd advocate.
The marines have the capabilities to spawn many at a time (As many as you have IP's).
They have the ability to teleport ANYWHERE in the map instantly. A marine team working as a group just drops down a phase in a hive and at spawn. Bam. There's an instantaneous portal from their spawn to the new hive. Let's say aliens take out two marines, the marines take out two aliens. Those two marines are both in and back in the hive before the 2nd alien can spawn in, and before the 1st can get to the hive.
Comm drops more IP's, it becomes even more pronounced. Anywhere the marines drop a phase gate, they can almost spawn in.
The marines have the capabilities to spawn many at a time (As many as you have IP's).
They have the ability to teleport ANYWHERE in the map instantly. A marine team working as a group just drops down a phase in a hive and at spawn. Bam. There's an instantaneous portal from their spawn to the new hive. Let's say aliens take out two marines, the marines take out two aliens. Those two marines are both in and back in the hive before the 2nd alien can spawn in, and before the 1st can get to the hive.
Comm drops more IP's, it becomes even more pronounced. Anywhere the marines drop a phase gate, they can almost spawn in.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, in large games it is ridicolous - one pitched battle in a 16v16 game leaving 12 dead on each side. After that, it will be 16 marines vs 4-10 aliens for the rest of the game until the marines win.
What is needed is a way for the Kharaa to control their spawn rate. Personally, I'm in favor of being able to pay 1-2 resources to be moved from dead to reinf mode - ie, pay and you spawn 20 seconds later, no matter how many others are dead/reinf'ing at the same time.
Sorta like a personal emergeny beacon.
The problem with this is to get higher level equipment the marines just need to wait ages which is boring considering they can finish it as soon as they get ~100 res by setting up a seige. For aliens they need to get the hive, a very difficult proposition if the marine team is half organized.
Way's around this could be:
The only reason the 2nd hive is so important is just 'fade prevention' as fades will come too quickly for the un-upgraded marines. So if the marines had more res they could tech quicker and rival the fades faster, this could be done a number of ways. More starting res or more res point in the marine base. The only problem is currently the marines would get both hives aswell but if there was a WoL by default in one of the none base hives this would stop them taking it. - MINOR CHANGE?
obviously the ideal balance is if a fade and marine meet in the mid-game (away from any bases) they stand a equal chance. Maybe fades slighty stronger requiring 2 marines vs 1 fade is a definate win which atm it isn't.
4 hives each hive less important - VERY DRASTIC
Sounds like a good idea, but would be too drastic a change for the dev team to seriously consider.
Face it kids, the only "NS veterans" on the whole planet at the moment are the playtesters..
Also, I'm getting bored with this " NS is all wrong, here is what you should do to make it exactly how I want it to be."
Hey, I have a solution, learn to program , animate, map and model and make your own mod..
/sighs