Please End The 5 Min Game

reborebo Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2734Members
<div class="IPBDescription">its killing NS</div> I dont care how you do it, but it needs to end. I play exlusively with experienced players and we all agree that the 5 min game will be the death of NS. Every map has been disected, gorges know exactly how to minimize the time for the 2nd hive and commanders know that phase rushing will result in a quick capture of 2 hives. This has been so honed in such a short period of time that 5 min long games are the norm, unless you play with newbs whoever gets 2 hives first wins and its hurting the game.

Can a developer please! address this Marines are not getting any upgrades before they have lost and aliens as fade + umbra have no challange. People i play with are getting really racked off with it, the game has decended from skillful skulking and ferocious and wiley marines using all the tech availibale to them. To two teams running to the other hives and securing with the most basic un upgraded wepaons. There is NO other way to win.

sure there will be people coming on saying blah blah i won with 1 hive, blah blah i won vs onos etc etc. But these cases are so rare and to be honest onbly happen when a lesser experienced player makes a massive balls up. The fun of NS is being lost and being replaced by bland rushes.
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Comments

  • littlewildlittlewild Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9467Members
    Mentioned in at least 5 other threads with extensive debate and flaming.
    Hopefully noted by the developers.
  • zodazoda Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7175Members
    are you reffering to rushing?



    <i>unless you play with newbs whoever gets 2 hives first wins and its hurting the game.</i>


    not really, a good team can take a hive and then it could last for a long time. If you believe that whoever gets 2 hives is the winner then I dont know what to tell you.... Do you just give up once the other team has 2 hives?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> you have never made a comeback with agood teamwork?
  • reborebo Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2734Members
    edited December 2002
    I dont want to start a flame war, so (btw im not replying to the above two here) please dont bring flames to this thread, its a serious point that does need attention from the devs i think.

    Zoda, yes this is in servers usually locked where all the players are on voice comm and co-ordinate. 2 hive lock with basic defense at each hive is very hard to beat, even a single phase gate is hard enough. But add TF and 3 T at each hive, its damn near impossible... as soon as theres incomming at each hive, its called on comm and everyone piles in. Soon the number of T's go up and each hive has 10+ turrets.

    If the hive isnt taken fades go up in about 5 mins, and given that any experienced comm will have spent monies on phase and hive def there is no HA or HMG or upgrades. Marine base falls shortly later. It is bad for the game because it becomes mundane.
  • Hang_LooseHang_Loose Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7775Members
    I live for the five minute game. It means one of two things:

    1. If you're the winner. You've done something incredibly right.
    2. If you're the loser. You're done something incredibly wrong.
  • Cruelest_AngelCruelest_Angel Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3825Members
    Don't think I've ever played in a game where everyone were having great teamwork and used voicecom and stuff in NS.
    But any team that fully utilizes the communication possibilities voicecom gives is shure to win a game.

    I don't really know how the team ment for the game to be, if the point of it is to be decided within the first 5-10 minutes of the game and the following 20 minutes are supposed to be a loosing battle, then it's fine as it is. If there's supposed to be more to NS than this, then something really needs to be changed.
  • pardzhpardzh Join Date: 2002-10-25 Member: 1601Members
    Sheesh, a turret factory and three turrets is an uncrackable defense? Come on, there's something wrong with you if you think that's real hard to take down. If the Marines skimp on hive defense like that, you can just use a Lerk to spike down turrets on one side of the TF and munch down on the other side.

    Besides, in my opinion, if there's a five minute game, the teams are <i>not</i> coordinated. Aliens should be scouting their hives and notice that there's a phase being build. All aliens flock to that hive and keep pressure on the phase until it goes down. If you play with really experienced people like you say, your games should be a lot longer than 5 minutes. Whenever I play with people from #naturalselection that are experienced, the games are usually long and fun.

    I have to agree with Hang Loose here: The 5 minute game means one team screwed up huge, and one team did pretty well.
  • M_aka_eloreiM_aka_elorei Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9420Members
    there are ways to stop the 5 minute win. on many servers i know the regs well, hell, i can tell who is gorging for aliens most times. depending on their style, we try to trip them up. some gorges rez spam, insuring fades in 5 minutes, if so, we rush their start hive. good skulks can pull off a stop to this, but yu can be damn sure itll be close. this will put the gorge in a bit more of a defensive mode, delaying the hive a short while. same goes for aliens. phase rush to hives can hurt badly, but 2 skulks at the marine start is a damn good way to pull them offa yu. good marines trying to phase rush wont have turrets at all in their base, if they do, they are taking too long. i dont care how good that guy is guarding the base, a good skulk WILL get lucky sometimes.

    part of the problem is probably how many people you are playing with though. remember this game was balanced for 6 vs 6. i find that after 7 people per team, its just rush rush rush. its not a tactical game when 12 marines just shoot down a hallway, or 10 skulks just run around in a room chomping blindly. try a server with only 12-14 people, i think you will enjoy it much more.
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    The '5 minute win' is a sign of poor balance and is something that should be looked at.

    For those who think that the 5 minute rush is essential to NS, perhaps you should go back to CS where all the games are 5 minutes.

    The point here is that people want a good game, not a fast game.

    There is a difference.

    Regards,

    Savant
  • AminalAminal Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10610Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Savant+Dec 20 2002, 07:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Dec 20 2002, 07:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The '5 minute win' is a sign of poor balance and is something that should be looked at.

    For those who think that the 5 minute rush is essential to NS, perhaps you should go back to CS where all the games are 5 minutes.

    The point here is that people want a good game, not a fast game.

    There is a difference.

    Regards,

    Savant<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <i><b>The '5 minute win' is a sign of poor balance and is something that should be looked at.</b></i>

    It is only a difference in the balance between marines/aliens, it is a balance issue with the players. If you are consistantly loosing in 5 mins to skulk rushes, then your marines are not good enough. Equally, if the marines phase two of your hives before you can get in there, then you've got a crap alien team.

    The game should not be made harder/easier for people who are good/crap at it.
  • SpoogeSpooge Thunderbolt missile in your cheerios Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 67Members
    Instead of telling the Devs to "fix" this "balance" issue, why don't you ask yourself what went wrong (or right) in your 5 min matches. How did the marines destroy your hive so quickly? How did the aliens get 2 hives without any marine interference? What did the commander do to keep the team from climbing the tech tree? What did the marines do that forced the commander to waste resources?

    I've been in more than enough "good" matches to know that this isn't a "balance" issue. It's a matter of strategy, skill and teamwork.
  • Sgt_PFoxSgt_PFox Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2872Members
    Well, your problem is that you're thinking of a mighty static gameplan. Multitasking is king son, once you figure that out, it's no worry.

    Issue: Marines take two hives.

    They're down to close to 0 resources for a while, it'll take time to get enough for even 1 tf & 1 turret. Thus, send 1 - 2 aliens to a hive to make noise. Comm orders everyone to defend that hive. Rest of the aliens attack the 2nd hive, kill any remaining guards, and destroy phase gate.

    Comm will either send out attack party to reclaim hive or abandon it. If comm sends attack party, aliens hit first hive, destroy phase gate while attackers are incapable of making a fast return, and destroy all the structures there. Massive resource hit for the marines, aliens have the advantage.

    Aliens get two hives:

    If they're experienced players, they've rushed, so you can assume 2 hives, 4 resource nodes, and maybe an upgrade chamber or two. Ping both hives w/ sensory dish (didn't build one? what are you, simple?) and determine the least defended hive. Dispatch a marine (hopefully parasited) to the heavily protected one. While he's en-route, an attack party of unparasited marines travels to least defended hive.

    Drop ammo for decoy marine, and he goes to town. Probably dies, but maybe not. As aliens rush to defend initial hive, attack party opens fire. Assuming 3-4 attacking marines, it's about 2 clips each. Aliens lose 1 hive, and if they split their forces to defend both, there's a chance the decoy marine (if he's really good), can take the first hive.

    Issue: Marines have just reclaimed 2nd hive.

    While the marines are proudly surveying the wreckage of your 2nd hive, gather up all 2nd level units, skulks and gorges, and hit the marine base. Experienced rushing marines will have little to no static defenses, and at best 2-3 marines. Make short work of the troops with rushing skulks, and kill the phase gate right away. Gorges can heal, and infantry portals go down fast. w/ no more reinforcements available, send the skulks back to the only remaining hive for base defence, or, if the hive has static defenses, send them to the least defended marine hive to destroy phase gate. Set advanced aliens on the command centre / advanced structures. Dispatch gorge to original base or new base with the skulks to retake hive.

    Issue: Aliens have just sacked your main base.

    Drop a command centre and two infantry portals at the most defensible hive. Split troops between both available hives, and dig in. It's only a few fades before they're back to skulks, and you CAN kill a lone fade, can't you soldier?
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    You don't understand Animal, this isn't about 'skill', this is about the lowest common denominator. If there is a tactic executed correctly that WILL usually win a team the game in five minutes then most teams WILL go for it. Why play for an hour when you can win in 5 minutes? Why play for an hour when you know the OTHER team will be rushing to win in 5 minutes and that if you don't rush too you are screwed.

    So then you have all teams rushing and no one ends up playing long games. Sorry, but I don't find that fun at all.

    If people want 5 minutes games, go play CS. There are 20,000 five minute games available to play. For NS I'd like to see something different.

    Regards,

    Savant
  • kolokolkolokol Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9166Members
    Rushing is a great and valid tactic. And the best games are where the other team claws their way to victory after the other team has 2 hives. This happened on eclipse a few days ago, the marines had fortifyed mainatiance and comp core and ill never know how the alien team managed to rip the marines fortifications apart in 2 minutes allowing us to grab both hives and grind the rines to powder.
  • Kid-AKid-A Join Date: 2002-12-17 Member: 10908Members
    edited December 2002
    I think I agree that rushing is bad for the game but its not up to the developers its up to the players.

    I was in a game commed by a clan member his tactics were 2ip, armoury, obs, phase. Then he sent whole team to the 1st hive built a phase outside and we just wasted the hive any spawning skulks got nailed pretty quick.

    Guess what 'we won', guess what else it was the most boring game on NS I've ever played.

    The general view is that 'Marine overpowered at start, Alien overpowered at end'. The following tactic sort of balances it:

    1 tactic that I think leads to a good game is Move the base (cc and all) to a hive. Because this modifies the game costing the marines a bit of money and time the sides are alot more balanced at the start. Also because the aliens can never get onii the endgame can last longer and is a bit more balanced. And generally the midgame lasts alot longer. Some people think this is the most effective strat, I disagree, but it does make for enjoyable games.
  • SpoogeSpooge Thunderbolt missile in your cheerios Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 67Members
    edited December 2002
    <!--QuoteBegin--Savant+Dec 20 2002, 07:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Dec 20 2002, 07:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why play for an hour when you know the OTHER team will be rushing to win in 5 minutes and that if you don't rush too you are screwed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You've just answered your own question. It sounds like you're expecting the other team to play "your" way. Guess what, they don't care how you want to play. They want to win. Stop them. You know what they're up to. Formulate a plan to cut off their attack. Stop backing yourself into a corner and start taking the initiative. Force them to play "your" way by organizing your team and using precision attacks.
  • EdcrabEdcrab Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4324Members
    As much as I despise short games, there's no realistic way to counter them. Doing so with coding wouldn't make sense.
    If someone wants to win, they'll do it in anyway whatsoever. Winning is everything to most players.
  • McMastersMcMasters Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8536Members, Constellation
    Having a problem with defending against a rush as aliens/marines?

    Change your tactics.

    Change your outlook on what is important.

    <b>Evolve.</b>


    They game's name is what it is for a reason. Jeez.

    -_-
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--QuoteBegin--Edcrab+Dec 20 2002, 08:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Edcrab @ Dec 20 2002, 08:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As much as I despise short games, there's no realistic way to counter them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Then let's call Natural Selection "CS2," give the game a 5 minute clock and get it over with already. Sheesh, there are PLENTY of legitimate ways to take the 'rush' out of the early game without taking the fun out of it.

    The problem is that too many people want to turn NS into a CS clone with 5 minute match times.

    Frankly I thought that was one thing that we DIDN'T want to happen.

    Regards,

    Savant
  • M_aka_eloreiM_aka_elorei Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9420Members
    personally, every 5 minute game i have seen was due entirely to ppl being REALLY bad at the game. if my gorge is res spamming, im hanging in the start hive, sure, come put that phase here, while my team is attacking yer base, yer either a)alone and dead now that i bit yu, 2) losing because yer whole team is here and yer base is getting trashed.

    6 good players vs 6 good players rarely ends in 5 minutes.
  • Minstrel_KnightMinstrel_Knight The truth and nothing but the truth... Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9562Banned
    edited December 2002
    <!--QuoteBegin--M aka elorei+Dec 20 2002, 09:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (M aka elorei @ Dec 20 2002, 09:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->personally, every 5 minute game i have seen was due entirely to ppl being REALLY bad at the game.  if my gorge is res spamming, im hanging in the start hive, sure, come put that phase here, while my team is attacking yer base, yer either a)alone and dead now that i bit yu, 2) losing because yer whole team is here and yer base is getting trashed.

    6 good players vs 6 good players rarely ends in 5 minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    or 3) You're dead because their whole team is here and they just place down another command chair and infantry portals and recycle stuff at main, permanently locking down that hive and wasting your teams time at main.
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members
    "The Rush" is easily beaten. You just have make sure all of the EX-CS marines you play with to work togther. I play aliens alomst exclusively simply because on a 6 man team it only takes 2 idiot marines to ruin the whole game. (I will play marine when the teams are un even or when I know the rest of the marines). Say this with me now: "One man build the rest defend the rush". Watch how quickly the skulks die. 90% of the time, if two skulk rushes go down in flames (not really that hard) you will not see a third.
  • Minstrel_KnightMinstrel_Knight The truth and nothing but the truth... Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9562Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin--MMZ>Torak+Dec 20 2002, 09:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Dec 20 2002, 09:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"The Rush" is easily beaten. You just have make sure all of the EX-CS marines you play with to work togther. I play aliens alomst exclusively simply because on a 6 man team it only takes 2 idiot marines to ruin the whole game. (I will play marine when the teams are un even or when I know the rest of the marines). Say this with me now: "One man build the rest defend the rush". Watch how quickly the skulks die. 90% of the time, if two skulk rushes go down in flames (not really that hard) you will not see a third.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes the skulk rush is a total joke unless you have complete idiots on the marine team who wander off or don't watch the door at all. On the other hand the marine rush can work very well especially when you consider that marines are going to be spawning 2 or 3x as fast as the skulks.
  • Crazed-OneCrazed-One Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7027Members
    edited December 2002
    Yes its about reading the other sides tactics for most part. But there are some 5 minute games that cant be stopped by any means.

    example: 6 Aliens vs 6 Marines, marines lose in 5 minutes, 3 marines drop 3 marines come in , same 6 aliens win in 5 minutes. Marines leave again due to losing.

    and any 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3, just doesnt work on public servers with random people, you need 12 to 14 people games for it to be more leveled out. min 5 vs 5.

    If you have a same set of 6 marines then you should, make sure comm knows what to do. Change tactic, try an all out marine hive attack, try moving base, try defending to build up, even w/o a comm 2 guys can tell were hive is by watching were the skulks are coming from.

    This game is hard, if you spawn and stand still for 3 seconds at start of a game you may have already lost that game. Though I do miss the slow games where as a skulk I could just hang out over doorways, or as a fade just stand in hallways cloaked waiting for a marine to walk by and show his back, I like to find aserver full of newbs, just to have a slower game, and just drown out the, "how do I build this".

    oh yeah and the <b>SUPER SECRET to BEATING the SKULK RUSH</b>, 1 or 2 people get at farthest points from entrances on some maps 1 man can cover 2 doorways, crouch watch and listen let someone else build, when skulk comes at you AIM your lmg and squeeze trigger for 1 or 2 secs, ded skulk, if there is no more skulks and you hear no more feet goto: reload gun, if you empty mag goto: switch to pistol, AIM fire. Its just that easy , yes you and your fellow Marines will soon be roasting skulk over the open microwave beam singing merrily and swapping jokes. Sorry if I sound sarcastic, but I love being lmg,la, and pistol as much as a skulk or fade, but maybee Im an idiot cause other than using a lerk to give umbra support , I never use lerk or Ono.
  • h3nkosh3nkos Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9112Members
    If all teams would do like sgt.PFox says NS would be the best game ever.

    Actually I have played a few games where all teams followed these guidelines (or something similar) and It went on and on for like 3 hours and it was fun as hell. The situation kept switching from alien advantage to marine advantage all the time and it was very exciting!
  • NupiNupi Join Date: 2002-12-16 Member: 10898Members
    This 5 min game happened today twice, once marines rushed the hive down and then aliens rushed their base down. I dont know if i really mind about the fast games but on the other hand i dont like the battles which take hours to sort out, neither side is not giving up an inch..those are the best games that we can play though.
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    edited December 2002
    <!--QuoteBegin--rebo+Dec 20 2002, 02:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rebo @ Dec 20 2002, 02:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    If the hive isnt taken fades go up in about 5 mins, and given that any experienced comm will have spent monies on phase and hive def there is no HA or HMG or upgrades. Marine base falls shortly later. It is bad for the game because it becomes mundane.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Hmm... it's about 15 minutes for fades, unless the ready-room exploit is used, in which case you are talking about 8-9 minutes.

    The problem is that the marines feel that they must take two hives, rather than one hive and tech. As you point out, the commanders go all out for two hives, and if they fail, it is usually fatal as they haven't taken resources nodes and have spent lots of resources in the push.

    There are really two sides to the problem:

    1. Marine rushing is usually successful and very, very hard to defend against (IMO because the aliens can't build any early defenses and with one hive the aliens respawn so slowly that marines can win battles by attrition, and there are at least two, sometimes three locations that the aliens must defend - their own hive, the 2nd hive and sometimes a 2-hive siege location).
    2. Resourcing and getting HMG/HA in time to fight the fades usually isn't successful, unless you manage to get lots of resources (easy on large servers, hard on small, also depends on the map layout, resource richness (nothing with its 13 res nodes vs hera with 9) and the alien starting hive.

    I'd argue that rushing should be made slightly harder, mostly by adjusting the alien spawn rate so the aliens can take large losses without losing the game, and taking a look at the resource game to see if it is too tight for smaller marine teams so option #2 is viable for them.
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members
    I think that its more of a problem with commanders over spending on things like TF's a turrets, and under spending on upgrades. Quite often when I lose as alien the marine team has all the weapon and armor upgrades.
  • reborebo Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2734Members
    edited December 2002
    I would love to think there is an effective way to break a 2 hive lock by marines, or break a team of aliens that all simulatneously turned into 6 fades and 1/2 lerk but i dont think there is, even tho sgt.PFox suggested there is, we have tried those tactics and they really dont work(they shuold as their great examples of team play) usual situation is :: 2/3 marines at aech phase position + minimial turrets. sure all 8 skulks can rush that position, go for the phase gate etc etc, but to do that you have to assume all 8 skulks are alive if you wait for them to be so the positions are fortified evern more. Marines nowadays are crack shots, skulks are supposed to get 2++ kills per dead not the otherway round (on normal-pub serveres my average is about 5-1) on experienced servers it drops below 1-1 ratio, aliens are forced back by shear weight of numbers.

    Conversely vs an all fade + lerk alien team, sure there is a chance of a ninja siege but when i play every siege position is covered till the assult begins, it makes sense. sixty seconds later the marine base or third hive is hit by 7x5 acid rocket+ umbra = 35 acid rockets from impervious fades - sorry but nothing can sustain against thatm.

    If there are any ppl here who regularly come back from basic 2 hives lock then pls pm me and come to the great servers i play on. Very experienced players great team work, but alas very short games <b>soley</b> decided by early skulking.

    NoImagination:: Thanks for the extended desciption, this is exactly how i feel.

    The ONLY map where this situation is nearly broken is ns_nothing, where the marines secure only CBF. Then a REAL mid-game starts marines have lots of RP to move swiftly up the tech tree and there are many secret seige spots, and the alien half of the map is big, and slow to transverse as fades dont move 'that' fast. The problem is still evident tho =/
  • KboTKboT Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9436Members
    A 2 hive lock IS hard to win from but not Impossable. It all depeneds on early Marine game..
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members
    Personally, I think that in order to come back from the 2 hive lock, the marines have to make a mistake or the comm has to poorly defend the TF. Otherwise it's pretty much game over.
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