<!--quoteo(post=1945660:date=Jun 21 2012, 08:19 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 21 2012, 08:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will agree that vanilla jetpacks are too powerful for 10 pres, but I think the tools need to be given to fades and skulks (lerks and gorges can fight jetpackers acceptably for their investment). The onos should be directly countered by jetpacks because he's so powerful. Stomp is broken. Jetpack is the only reason that stomp doesn't win every single game when it comes out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO this is a matter of two wrongs accidentally making one right. Stomp shouldn't be so powerful, nor there should be such hard counters.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have to remember, if you're comparing an alien's poor aiming skills then you also have to compare him against a marine with poor aiming skills. A poorly aiming marine with an lmg and a jetpack is not going to be killing a leap-spamming skulk with less than a few clips.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is, the poorly aiming lmg marine will (probably) end killing the skulk, if my own experience as a poorly aiming player that has found himself in both sides of the fight is of any value. I think (excuse me if I'm wrong) that what you're trying to say is that, since the marine is moving quickly and aiming is more difficult in those conditions, he'll hit less often and therefore his offense generally speaking won't be increased that much even if he has more opportunities to hit. That's not what I find it happens: even I can control the alien's position much more easily with strafing or even high speed backpedaling, compared to having a skulk jumping around me like a rabbit on crack, and if you are moving in a group like marines should having your teammates living longer means that much time to kill the alien that's attacking them. Even in rooms with low ceilings where you can't fly out of melee reach.
I see only 2 ways to fix jetpacks in their current state. Either:
<ol type='1'><li>Nerf movement, reducing ability to turn while boosting. Jetpack users must then land to change direction. Quite a heavy nerf in all honesty, and heavily reduces the fun for marines.</li><li>Restore old aliens counters - webs for gorges, skulkleap-bite more responsive and allow fades to swipe after blink immediately. I love how fades are invisible, but this is coming at the cost of effective counters to jetpacks.</li></ol>
Yeah, I really think JP's are one of the most powerful, efficient and probably difficult to balance feature in the game. Provided you have at least a couple of RTs, JP's are essentially a mandatory buy for a marine. They are dirt, dirt cheap and extend your lifetime by a dramatic amount. Unless you get terribly unlucky, make a major screwup, or somehow really, really suck, you're going to make that 10pres back and then some from the jetpack because you can easily get out of most bad situations, and outright avoid huge amounts of damage from the majority of life forms. 90% of skulks will struggle to do anything against a JP, fades struggle against jetpacks (despite costing 5 times the pres essentially being the shock troops of the aliens), and onos are essentially hardcountered by jetpacks. Lerks are the obvious thing to deal with jetpacks, but they have 3.5 times the cost and are designed to harass slower moving marines using their ability to fly and move quickly as an advantage, not outright kill 1 on 1 (or more likely 2 or 3 versus every single marine with a JP) marines that now move quickly and fly, and are therefore nearly on equal footing against a lerk. Even dramatically increasing skulks and fades ability to engage jetpacks will still leave jetpacks as dirt cheap methods to dramatically increase the effectiveness of individual marines from their personal standpoint.
the real problem is that every time the devs try to fix a perceived or real problem they change 3 or 4 things at once and overcompensate and swing everything in the other direction, so it's equally broken except the reverse of the original situation. how about changing 1 thing at a time, guys?
<!--quoteo(post=1945604:date=Jun 21 2012, 11:28 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 21 2012, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Disagree 100% with buffing onos stomp in any way shape or form.
Also, none of these help fades or skulks against jps. You know, the two life forms that are designed to fight marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmmm.... not sure if trolling or never played ns1.
<!--quoteo(post=1945716:date=Jun 21 2012, 05:40 PM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Jun 21 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945716"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hmmm.... not sure if trolling or never played ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1945716:date=Jun 21 2012, 05:40 PM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Jun 21 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945716"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hmmm.... not sure if trolling or never played ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
huh? if you were stomped in ns1 you could still shoot...
<!--quoteo(post=1945721:date=Jun 21 2012, 03:52 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jun 21 2012, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->huh? if you were stomped in ns1 you could still shoot...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly I think that marines should still be allowed to shoot while on the ground. Watching yourself die is never fun when you can do nothing to fight it.
<!--quoteo(post=1945721:date=Jun 21 2012, 05:52 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jun 21 2012, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->huh? if you were stomped in ns1 you could still shoot...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
web was an excellent counter for JP in ns1. a dedicated gorge could make a team of JP marines useless.
<!--quoteo(post=1945732:date=Jun 21 2012, 04:30 PM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Jun 21 2012, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->web was an excellent counter for JP in ns1. a dedicated gorge could make a team of JP marines useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Grenades, and now flamers, heavily reduce its effectiveness against a vaguely competent team.
<!--quoteo(post=1945726:date=Jun 21 2012, 10:18 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jun 21 2012, 10:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945726"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stomp is fine once you can jump it with a well timed jump. (atm you can't I think)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah do we know why they removed that? I really don't understand what was wrong with being able to time a jump and avoid a stomp, removing it just lowers the skill ceiling
<!--quoteo(post=1945748:date=Jun 21 2012, 05:14 PM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ Jun 21 2012, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yeah do we know why they removed that? I really don't understand what was wrong with being able to time a jump and avoid a stomp, removing it just lowers the skill ceiling<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cory said somewhere that it was a bug that you can no longer jump to avoid it. When it will get fixed? Who knows?
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2012
Unless Marines cannot shoot while in the air, I don't think Stomp should be avoidable by jumping. Otherwise, it wouldn't be fair to the Onos. :)
IMO JP are too powerful, mainly because of their rapid fuel recharge. If either the air time is reduced, or the ground time is increased, they would be easier to deal with.
+1 for removing leap-bite and blink-swipe delay. JPs were arguably less powerful in NS1 because fades and skulks were still good against them (ignoring the superior mobility NS1 JPs had over NS2 JPs). jousting JPers with skulks and fades was fun.
this might present a problem of making fades and skulks too powerful against non-jpers. you can get leap pretty fast now so maybe just remove the delay for blink-swipe or make the fade vulnerable during blinking again but reduce cost and increase speed? i dunno.
I agree with a lot of what is being said here... JP's need to be nerfed in one way or another. Currently, (As has been said before) JP's have no tradeoff, they cost very little, and are nearly impossible to counter. From what I have heard about the gorge web ability, it would seem to be the counter to JP's. One thing I had always thought of as a counter, would be Lerk spores clogging up the jetpacks, making them inactive for a certain amount of time.
<!--quoteo(post=1945745:date=Jun 21 2012, 07:11 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jun 21 2012, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945745"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Grenades, and now flamers, heavily reduce its effectiveness against a vaguely competent team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I agree. They would have to make webs much more resilient against those attacks. Maybe something like 2x as strong as the current clog.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2012
eh.. removing the delays didnt do much, imo, after some testing.
I think performance plays a big role here.. anndd I think part of the problem is that a good JPer doesnt really have to touch the ground. In one try i can make it from DC to Xrds with nary touching the floor at all. <i>Thats half a map distance in the air due to the JP recharging in air. </i> I recommend delaying the time before recharge begins by 1 second. This plus the swipe/bite delays removed should be small enough changes to make an impact enough to increase the chances of killing a JPer.. at least until performance is sorted.
When things are close to be balanced it's probably better to change one thing at a time, if you change too much things then you can overshoot, and it's hard to tell what had which effect. Jetpacks are no that imba (if the overall economy is fixed of course) that you need to do big changes imo.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2012
Economy effects frequency, though, not actual PvP interaction or the frustration that comes with it. Though i agree with one thing at a time... like i said, i feel the one change already implemented didn't do much. Edit: but you're probably right.
<!--quoteo(post=1946128:date=Jun 23 2012, 01:24 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 23 2012, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I recommend delaying the time before recharge begins by 1 second. This plus the swipe/bite delays removed should be small enough changes to make an impact enough to increase the chances of killing a JPer.. at least until performance is sorted.
Thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first part would be an interesting change. I think a bite delay really needs to be removed, but as its been argued - you cannot remove blink delay while the invisibility from blink is in place. It would just be frustrating.
<!--quoteo(post=1946193:date=Jun 24 2012, 01:04 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jun 24 2012, 01:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The first part would be an interesting change. I think a bite delay really needs to be removed, but as its been argued - you cannot remove blink delay while the invisibility from blink is in place. It would just be frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Isn't there a dark cloud trailing fade when he blinks?
Remember everyone, the jetpack upgrades aren't even in the game. So instead of nerfing jp's rather come up with something to beat 'em.
I don't like the delay idea for recharge, but the recharge speed is way too high. A full pack in what, 4sec? Way too fast.
EDIT: If you add a delay, you start timing it in your head - can I stay on the ground long enough? Should I get up there first? How long is that second?
<!--quoteo(post=1946211:date=Jun 23 2012, 06:06 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jun 23 2012, 06:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946211"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't there a dark cloud trailing fade when he blinks?
Remember everyone, the jetpack upgrades aren't even in the game. So instead of nerfing jp's rather come up with something to beat 'em.
I don't like the delay idea for recharge, but the recharge speed is way too high. A full pack in what, 4sec? Way too fast.
EDIT: If you add a delay, you start timing it in your head - can I stay on the ground long enough? Should I get up there first? How long is that second?
It's not a fun function.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> *Unless they compensated for the JPs not having those upgrades yet. I thought the ARCs were the same thing though; I mean look at the shaded upgrades like, '%30 increased splash-damage.' There really does need to be better counters though, as well as performance stability or increases (One jet packer is fine with performance for me in combat; a base full of them are not.) One of the biggest gripes to me is that the Onos is incredibly slow; I've managed to charge/strike a jet packer or two but the marines always seem to have that maneuverability advantage that really jams the Onos as an effective unit (that ends up in power-rush units exclusively.) Combine the lvl.3 weapons they'll usually be accompanied by and the alien-team have little to fight back with.
<!--quoteo(post=1945721:date=Jun 21 2012, 10:52 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jun 21 2012, 10:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->huh? if you were stomped in ns1 you could still shoot...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No... Paralyze (the original Onos hive 1 ability) worked like that, but Stomp just stopped you from acting altogether, unless you wore a JP which made you totally immune. At least, I'm pretty sure it was like that in 3.x...
<!--quoteo(post=1946923:date=Jun 27 2012, 12:01 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jun 27 2012, 12:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No... Paralyze (the original Onos hive 1 ability) worked like that, but Stomp just stopped you from acting altogether, unless you wore a JP which made you totally immune. At least, I'm pretty sure it was like that in 3.x...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In 3.x you definitely can't shoot if the stomp hits you. You can kind of dodge a stomp or two and shoot by doing well timed backwards jumps with SG and firing midair, but otherwise you really aren't going to get too much damage done once you're in the stomping zone.
To be honest, a lot of games when maries have JP's aliens still win. Even some times when they have map control. Jp's are just riht in my opinion. Also ans skulk +leap i have killed JP mariens easier then normal because there movment is predictable
When animals catch flying prey they bring them down to the ground with their own weight. Skulks should do the same.
If a skulk lands a bite on a flying marines it should automaticly lock jaw and should drag the JPer the ground. Touching the ground auto enables rapid chomping again.
JPers can Rifle butt Lockjawed Skulks off in mid air.
Comments
IMO this is a matter of two wrongs accidentally making one right. Stomp shouldn't be so powerful, nor there should be such hard counters.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have to remember, if you're comparing an alien's poor aiming skills then you also have to compare him against a marine with poor aiming skills. A poorly aiming marine with an lmg and a jetpack is not going to be killing a leap-spamming skulk with less than a few clips.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is, the poorly aiming lmg marine will (probably) end killing the skulk, if my own experience as a poorly aiming player that has found himself in both sides of the fight is of any value. I think (excuse me if I'm wrong) that what you're trying to say is that, since the marine is moving quickly and aiming is more difficult in those conditions, he'll hit less often and therefore his offense generally speaking won't be increased that much even if he has more opportunities to hit. That's not what I find it happens: even I can control the alien's position much more easily with strafing or even high speed backpedaling, compared to having a skulk jumping around me like a rabbit on crack, and if you are moving in a group like marines should having your teammates living longer means that much time to kill the alien that's attacking them. Even in rooms with low ceilings where you can't fly out of melee reach.
<ol type='1'><li>Nerf movement, reducing ability to turn while boosting. Jetpack users must then land to change direction. Quite a heavy nerf in all honesty, and heavily reduces the fun for marines.</li><li>Restore old aliens counters - webs for gorges, skulkleap-bite more responsive and allow fades to swipe after blink immediately. I love how fades are invisible, but this is coming at the cost of effective counters to jetpacks.</li></ol>
Also, none of these help fades or skulks against jps. You know, the two life forms that are designed to fight marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmmm.... not sure if trolling or never played ns1.
At least I know you're trolling!
huh? if you were stomped in ns1 you could still shoot...
Honestly I think that marines should still be allowed to shoot while on the ground. Watching yourself die is never fun when you can do nothing to fight it.
web was an excellent counter for JP in ns1. a dedicated gorge could make a team of JP marines useless.
Grenades, and now flamers, heavily reduce its effectiveness against a vaguely competent team.
yeah do we know why they removed that? I really don't understand what was wrong with being able to time a jump and avoid a stomp, removing it just lowers the skill ceiling
Cory said somewhere that it was a bug that you can no longer jump to avoid it. When it will get fixed? Who knows?
IMO JP are too powerful, mainly because of their rapid fuel recharge. If either the air time is reduced, or the ground time is increased, they would be easier to deal with.
this might present a problem of making fades and skulks too powerful against non-jpers. you can get leap pretty fast now so maybe just remove the delay for blink-swipe or make the fade vulnerable during blinking again but reduce cost and increase speed? i dunno.
+1
/thread
Yeah, I agree. They would have to make webs much more resilient against those attacks. Maybe something like 2x as strong as the current clog.
I think performance plays a big role here.. anndd
I think part of the problem is that a good JPer doesnt really have to touch the ground. In one try i can make it from DC to Xrds with nary touching the floor at all. <i>Thats half a map distance in the air due to the JP recharging in air.
</i>
I recommend delaying the time before recharge begins by 1 second. This plus the swipe/bite delays removed should be small enough changes to make an impact enough to increase the chances of killing a JPer.. at least until performance is sorted.
Thoughts?
Though i agree with one thing at a time... like i said, i feel the one change already implemented didn't do much.
Edit: but you're probably right.
Thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first part would be an interesting change. I think a bite delay really needs to be removed, but as its been argued - you cannot remove blink delay while the invisibility from blink is in place. It would just be frustrating.
Isn't there a dark cloud trailing fade when he blinks?
Remember everyone, the jetpack upgrades aren't even in the game. So instead of nerfing jp's rather come up with something to beat 'em.
I don't like the delay idea for recharge, but the recharge speed is way too high. A full pack in what, 4sec? Way too fast.
EDIT: If you add a delay, you start timing it in your head - can I stay on the ground long enough? Should I get up there first? How long is that second?
It's not a fun function.
Remember everyone, the jetpack upgrades aren't even in the game. So instead of nerfing jp's rather come up with something to beat 'em.
I don't like the delay idea for recharge, but the recharge speed is way too high. A full pack in what, 4sec? Way too fast.
EDIT: If you add a delay, you start timing it in your head - can I stay on the ground long enough? Should I get up there first? How long is that second?
It's not a fun function.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*Unless they compensated for the JPs not having those upgrades yet. I thought the ARCs were the same thing though; I mean look at the shaded upgrades like, '%30 increased splash-damage.'
There really does need to be better counters though, as well as performance stability or increases (One jet packer is fine with performance for me in combat; a base full of them are not.) One of the biggest gripes to me is that the Onos is incredibly slow; I've managed to charge/strike a jet packer or two but the marines always seem to have that maneuverability advantage that really jams the Onos as an effective unit (that ends up in power-rush units exclusively.) Combine the lvl.3 weapons they'll usually be accompanied by and the alien-team have little to fight back with.
No... Paralyze (the original Onos hive 1 ability) worked like that, but Stomp just stopped you from acting altogether, unless you wore a JP which made you totally immune. At least, I'm pretty sure it was like that in 3.x...
In 3.x you definitely can't shoot if the stomp hits you. You can kind of dodge a stomp or two and shoot by doing well timed backwards jumps with SG and firing midair, but otherwise you really aren't going to get too much damage done once you're in the stomping zone.
If a skulk lands a bite on a flying marines it should automaticly lock jaw and should drag the JPer the ground. Touching the ground auto enables rapid chomping again.
JPers can Rifle butt Lockjawed Skulks off in mid air.
Something lke this.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGXifimyluw&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGXifimyluw...feature=related</a>