Jet packs
Cee Colon Slash
Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Deux ex machina...</div>I think the jet pack needs a bit of nerfing to be a bit worse. I'm speaking from the point of view of both an alien and marine player: I find as soon as jet packs come into the game, it's a massive advantage for the marines. There are no effective alien counters, especially in the last couple of builds. The only thing that comes close is vortex, and that's just a temporary counter, and an expensive one to research at that.
In terms of the actual nerfing - I'm not sure on this point, because the fundamental problem remains that the aliens really don't have any abilities that can effectively counter when the marine is using the jp - which leads me to think the nerf is less jet fuel, higher cost, a cooldown after running out of fuel, or decreased movement dynamics. All of which would make me a bit sad: when I'm using a jet pack, my kill count triples. Which should be an indication as I'm not <i>that</i> good a player...
Let the flaming begin!
In terms of the actual nerfing - I'm not sure on this point, because the fundamental problem remains that the aliens really don't have any abilities that can effectively counter when the marine is using the jp - which leads me to think the nerf is less jet fuel, higher cost, a cooldown after running out of fuel, or decreased movement dynamics. All of which would make me a bit sad: when I'm using a jet pack, my kill count triples. Which should be an indication as I'm not <i>that</i> good a player...
Let the flaming begin!
Comments
*edit* +elmo
This, and don't forget performance. I get +- 15 fps around jetpackers so it's impossible for me to kill them pretty much.
TBh man, my performance with a good computer around jpers is fine. Not sure what they could do to get your performance up there in these situations. Maybe have the ability to disable or lessen the resolution of particles created by the jps or something. ut not disable imo, they are part of the game play of jetpacks (smoke screen obstruction on take off).
+1
There is nothing wrong with jetpacks. If anything, I feel they accelerate too slowly.
<!--quoteo(post=1945571:date=Jun 21 2012, 03:58 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ Jun 21 2012, 03:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jetpacks just feel too stable for me, don't really think a Jetpack would ever be that reliable. Wish it was more like the Q3 rocket jump without the damage..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, yeah, remove air-friction from jetpacks so that they become a Lander-ish experience, you gain momentum -> you KEEP it, until you hit something. :D
*edit* +elmo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agree with this, in addition to the delay removals, I *think* gorge is supposed to be getting some web-esque ability at some point? "spiders" that shoot webs out of them or something, I don't remember exactly how they are supposed to work. Which will be a huge help, because even with the delay removals some hive rooms are still just extremely easy to JP rush and kill (warehouse, generator, atrium to name a few).
True, it looks like they are running on coal.
You'd think minimising emissions would have high priority when developing high-tech indoor jetpacks.
Oh, and +1 to better alien movement with no attack delays as a proper counter.
I also think lerk spikes are more efficient than ppl give them cred for. Lerks are faster than JP and should be able to out DPS a 0-0 rine. Togehter with some leaping skulks acting as buffert, together they should be able to outmanouver JP rines. Think muta ling vs rine. Together with elmos proposittion JP might not be as big of a problem.
That web thingy seems like another negative gameplay abilty. (do not like)
This is what you do.
Remove leap -> bite and blink -> swipe time. Then you have good jetpacks that can be killed by good fades and skulks! Lerks can still fight jetpacks, and gorges can also engage via spit. Onos are now the only unit that can't actively fight jetpacks and I'm alright with that. Onos have obvious other advantages to use.
Also, hitreg and performance issues are adding to jetpack invulnerability, especially on publics. In build 210, servers that worked well previously are now down to tick rate 8-15 at 20min mark and give 50-100% choke in combat -> trying to hit with fade is like buying a lottery ticket and even more so against jetpacks.
So, in my opinion the removal of the attack delays is the only tweak that should be done right now. If we at some point have decent performance after 10-15 minutes of a round, we'll see if further tweaking is actually needed...
- JPs use 2x as much energy/fuel when flying through lerk gas
- Onos stomp ability also pushes back marines that are in flight or not on the same level as them (right now it's easy to counter stomp as a marine by simply jumping when onos goes to stomp).
- Gorge can make webs like in NS1
- JPs use 2x as much energy/fuel when flying through lerk gas
- Onos stomp ability also pushes back marines that are in flight or not on the same level as them (right now it's easy to counter stomp as a marine by simply jumping when onos goes to stomp).
- Gorge can make webs like in NS1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disagree 100% with buffing onos stomp in any way shape or form.
Also, none of these help fades or skulks against jps. You know, the two life forms that are designed to fight marines.
Can't wait till the upgrades for Jetpack get added in.... /sarcasm
Remove leap -> bite and blink -> swipe time. Then you have good jetpacks that can be killed by good fades and skulks! Lerks can still fight jetpacks, and gorges can also engage via spit. Onos are now the only unit that can't actively fight jetpacks and I'm alright with that. Onos have obvious other advantages to use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem here is in my eyes the "good" fades and skulks. Using a jetpack doesn't require much skill, why should killing one require a lot of skill?
The problem i have with the Jetpack is that it has no tradeoff. It's a counter basicly to every alien class especially to the onos.
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Actual jetpack for reference. A real jetpack is of course deafeningly loud.
The problem i have with the Jetpack is that it has no tradeoff. It's a counter basicly to every alien class especially to the onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm assuming at least decent levels of player skill. Pressing your right mouse button to activate a leap or blink doesn't require much still, either. Juking with a jp and hitting with a fade/skulk will both require skill. I think it takes more skill for a fade or skulk to hit a jetpack than it does for a jetpack to dodge, but that's fine. At least skulks and fades would have the ability to fight against jetpacks. This ability to fight is obviously lacking.
The jetpack costs 10 pres (in the competitive mod it is 15 pres and has much higher research tres and time cost). That 10 pres is the tradeoff. Much like the fade's 50 pres is that tradeoff. The removal of the artificial delays would mean that jetpack isn't a counter to every alien class. As skulks and fades are always present in relatively large numbers, this means that aliens can fight jetpacks again! I don't think the lerk, even in vanilla, is countered by a jetpack. The gorge can also engage jetpacks, though is obviously more of a support. Spit is great at forcing jetpacks to move from high areas, though. The onos shouldn't be able to fight jetpacks in jetpack friendly rooms because the onos' only counter is jetpacks.
+1
Boring to play jetpack and to play against jetpacks right now. Add that sentry spam in, and you make for one frustrating alien experience. Only reason i generally buy one is to avoid the grief caused by broken onos stomp.
As for JP movement, its not just air friction. Instantly slowing down when pressing crouch mid flight points to a pretty crude underlying movement system.
+1
I couldn't figure out what was making my jetpack just fail sometimes and raged at this for a while until I realized that it was crouch doing it. The marine movement has some serious and rage-inducing flaws in it that I really hope they are aware of/fix before 1.0. Just ridiculously bad, anything involving crouch+jump.
The jetpack costs 10 pres (in the competitive mod it is 15 pres and has much higher research tres and time cost). That 10 pres is the tradeoff. Much like the fade's 50 pres is that tradeoff. The removal of the artificial delays would mean that jetpack isn't a counter to every alien class. As skulks and fades are always present in relatively large numbers, this means that aliens can fight jetpacks again! I don't think the lerk, even in vanilla, is countered by a jetpack. The gorge can also engage jetpacks, though is obviously more of a support. Spit is great at forcing jetpacks to move from high areas, though. The onos shouldn't be able to fight jetpacks in jetpack friendly rooms because the onos' only counter is jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought of listing the 10 pres as a trade off, but since 10 pres are no real trade off in my eyes since most marines have more then enough pres anyway. The thing is that a LMG Jetpacker is so powerful it just doesn't stand in any comparisition to the the alien lifeforms.
I read in some other thread that jetpacks were intended to increase the marines' map control and out of combat speed and mobility, not to be a help in combat. If that's the case, it's not working properly.
I couldn't figure out what was making my jetpack just fail sometimes and raged at this for a while until I realized that it was crouch doing it. The marine movement has some serious and rage-inducing flaws in it that I really hope they are aware of/fix before 1.0. Just ridiculously bad, anything involving crouch+jump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that crouch brings your body down instead of your legs up.
The best way to see it is to create a listenserver. Enable cheats. Thirdperson. Type physics in console (it will rape your fps) and now attempt to crouch jump and observe.
The best way to see it is to create a listenserver. Enable cheats. Thirdperson. Type physics in console (it will rape your fps) and now attempt to crouch jump and observe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought they fixed this at some point though? Or at least attempted to change it.. I could of sworn I saw something regarding it in the patchnotes a few patches ago. It makes things like jumping on/over railings and boxes as a marine impossible and I would say that it's something fairly important that needs to be fixed before release. Not to mention the jetpack-crouch-rage it causes as well (very unintuitive).
I read in some other thread that jetpacks were intended to increase the marines' map control and out of combat speed and mobility, not to be a help in combat. If that's the case, it's not working properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will agree that vanilla jetpacks are too powerful for 10 pres, but I think the tools need to be given to fades and skulks (lerks and gorges can fight jetpackers acceptably for their investment). The onos should be directly countered by jetpacks because he's so powerful. Stomp is broken. Jetpack is the only reason that stomp doesn't win every single game when it comes out.
You have to remember, if you're comparing an alien's poor aiming skills then you also have to compare him against a marine with poor aiming skills. A poorly aiming marine with an lmg and a jetpack is not going to be killing a leap-spamming skulk with less than a few clips.
You have to remember, if you're comparing an alien's poor aiming skills then you also have to compare him against a marine with poor aiming skills. A poorly aiming marine with an lmg and a jetpack is not going to be killing a leap-spamming skulk with less than a few clips.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't UWE say that there should be no direct counters?
Taking away the blink and leap delay would probably remedy this like others stated, all we would need is the random new players to learn how to do it and we'd be set.