Since I dislike the notion of commanders basically creating additional units, I'd like to see the arc replaced by a modified exosuit armed with the sonic cannon (which would require LoS) and a relatively weak personal weapon -a LMG, tops-
Marines turtling in base didn't last so long when you could gas the armory and rocket the turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is true. Doesn't look like its set to change though, aliens are more melee focused than ever.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1944916:date=Jun 19 2012, 12:09 PM:name=shad3r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shad3r @ Jun 19 2012, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines turtling in base didn't last so long when you could gas the armory and rocket the turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly why fade acid rockets need a return. As tier 3 fade tech.
Slowing the speed of arcs, and increasing their power, but increasing their cost/limiting them isn't a bad idea. The marines don't theoretically lose any offensive ability, as their ability to do damage is not reduced, but less arcs (giving a train less effective health, and making it easier to target, as well as preventing potential lag issues) that move slower makes it a bit easier for aliens to counter an arc train, and forces the marines to defend the arc train more.
Mind you I did see well over 20 arcs get destroyed all at once in a game yesterday. It was crazy.
I hate any kind of cap, hard or soft. It's just a poor way to balance something that should only be used as a last resort imo. I love the idea of needing marines to 'set up' the ARC one way or another, that'd definitely make for interesting gameplay though it could be tedious when multiple or mass ARCs are involved.
<!--quoteo(post=1944948:date=Jun 19 2012, 02:07 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jun 19 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about we scale the amount of available ai units to the number of captured tech points. More stations = more arcs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But then you're hardcapping things which is effectively admitting defeat on balancing them.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1944954:date=Jun 19 2012, 02:18 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 19 2012, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But then you're hardcapping things which is effectively admitting defeat on balancing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a sane game there would be a hardcap on how many entities you could have. Like how I crashed a server by filling it up with cysts.
<!--quoteo(post=1944955:date=Jun 19 2012, 02:29 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jun 19 2012, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In a sane game there would be a hardcap on how many entities you could have. Like how I crashed a server by filling it up with cysts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A hardcap to prevent server crashes is different from a hardcap to balance the game.
This is like in starcraft 2. The 200 supply hardcap is there to keep games reasonable and discourage stalemates. You don't have your tanks or broodlords capped to 5 because blizzard couldn't figure out how to balance them.
Have you guys been hit with heavy drifter rushes? Jesus christ that's crazy. My computer is good, not top of the line, but I basically never have frame rate issues on NS2, but some guy kept on doing that in the last game I played, and it brutalized my FPS. I don't know how many he would send, but it would take a couple of us 30 seconds or so just to clear them out, and it got the CC down to like 60% when he did it. If we'd picked up a GL it would have been easier to deal with, but it was flat out annoying and bad for gameplay, both gameplay wise, and practically in that it caused lag. Arc trains as well I worry could cause lag, it doesn't seem to cause huge issues for me, but I think it does cause some. I think the key is, this is a competitive FPS, not a real RTS or coop shooter. When I started thinking about this, I didn't like the idea of a cap, but the more I think about it, if it is causing problems, a cap isn't a bad idea, because fighting 30 arcs/like 200 ###### drifters that are stupid, AI controlled minions of the commander really gets in the way of the whole "It's like an RTS, but the units are real people who can think for themselves" thing. To some small extent, it's a nice feature, but when the AI controlled minions start to regularly out number the players, and perform better than the players to the point they are nearly essential to win, or the most efficient way to win, as it is for the marines (less so for drifters), then it's a problem.
That game was crazy, I don't even know what happened. They had fades soooo quickly, it was crazy. Besides the drifter rush and our comm dropping half way through, it was actually a good game, went on like more than an hour until we won.
Having marines manually unfold each one is the best suggestion I've seen in here. I like the idea that they're not completely autonomous, and the additional time makes it harder to set up large numbers before aliens discover the farm. Depending on how long that setup time is, the marine commanders will have to calculate how many res to invest in the ARC train before sending them into position. They have to figure out if their team will be able to set up all the ARCs fast enough without being discovered, and that can be a huge variable.
It will also weaken the train should it be discovered at any point en route, as the aliens will KNOW they have a good chance to stop the siege.
I would add that they should need line of sight/marine sight/observatory scan to start firing. (I haven't noticed that it needs this, but I could be wrong)
I hate the new buy menu, it's terrible and slow. I've noticed the optimisation might be dropping a bit too, when the Australian servers don't have players on them, I would jump on a overseas one, take Chicago for example. I've noticed that the game is almost unplayable with a ping over 200~, it wasn't always the case in the last few patches. The net optimisation needs looking at big time, I know it's not ideal playing with a ping like that, but I've done it many times in CS/TF2 and at least I can still play the game :) Anyway my rant :)
AngeluszHarmonic entropistJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
Wow. In the short time I've not checked many reactions were posted. I can tell some of my concerns are shared. Good to see that some will already be adressed.
I like the idea to limit the arcs to 1 per robo facility. I wouldn't even mind if the power of the arc would be increased a bit as well (a little more HP, much more dmg) to be as strong as several arcs instead. That way it's possible to aliens to stop them when incoming. They could also be a bit slower in my opinion.
Heck, I would even consider it an option to add the good old electrify upgrade to arcs (upgraded from the proto lab?), when done, arcs have the same electrify passive that NS1 used. It'd increase the survivability of the thing even a bit more.
As for alien vision, I'm not sure what to think of it. Right now I stay in normal vision whilst roaming and switch it on when I think I see marines. Still though, I think it's a waste to let all the graphics go to waste in that mode.
Finally the endgame survivability - I'm sure that's just a matter of balancing, perhaps another ability/upgade for skulks.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
1 arc per robo factory wont work, as the source of arc trains is excessive res... do you really think buying another robo is impossible in that situation? I say limit it to the amount of techpoints captured. 2 per techpoint. scales well with the pacing of the round, as well, this way, and contributes to tying tech to techpoints.
Which was why I proposed the limiting of 2 robo's / techpoint ... so that only 2 ARC's could be out at the same time, BUT to compensate each ARC would be 2 - 3 times more powerfull and more armored while traveling ( though still weak when deployed ).
That way a winning marine team could easily take 2 or more techpoints and be able to field 4 - 6 ARC's to deliver the coup de grace, but not able to turtle in a single base and simply send out trains to harrass the aliens while the players defended the base.
<!--quoteo(post=1945338:date=Jun 20 2012, 01:17 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jun 20 2012, 01:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which was why I proposed the limiting of 2 robo's / techpoint ... so that only 2 ARC's could be out at the same time, BUT to compensate each ARC would be 2 - 3 times more powerfull and more armored while traveling ( though still weak when deployed ).
That way a winning marine team could easily take 2 or more techpoints and be able to field 4 - 6 ARC's to deliver the coup de grace, but not able to turtle in a single base and simply send out trains to harrass the aliens while the players defended the base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1944816:date=Jun 19 2012, 06:45 AM:name=Vitdom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vitdom @ Jun 19 2012, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll let you in on a little secret Raven_XI... ;)
I am not sure if deploying the arcs will change too much. Marines with nano shield+med spam topped off with GL spams will be able to deploy them no prob. Not to mention how exosuits will come into play with such a feature.
Super slow arcs seems more appropriate and fun. That escort will encourage a lot of player versus player interaction.
<!--quoteo(post=1944868:date=Jun 19 2012, 10:06 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jun 19 2012, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->SO MUCH LIMITING IN THIS THREAD - please, instead of inventing limitations and hinderings and whatnots, just give Gorge the old bilebomb back. Voila! 10res alien counter for ARCS. Easily stoppable by marines, so Gorge needs backup, therefore +teamplay. Win win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When we had this, the game was a lot more fun in many ways. Just sayin'.
<!--quoteo(post=1945415:date=Jun 21 2012, 01:17 AM:name=Raven_XI)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raven_XI @ Jun 21 2012, 01:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No thanks, im pretty sure the team put that trade off in there for a reason. In my eyes you are nothing more than a cheater.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, I have never really thought about that I might be 'cheating'. =/ Since NS2 is and will be fully modable, I wonder what really should be classed as cheats.
<!--quoteo(post=1945465:date=Jun 20 2012, 08:13 PM:name=Vitdom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vitdom @ Jun 20 2012, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, I have never really thought about that I might be 'cheating'. =/ Since NS2 is and will be fully modable, I wonder what really should be classed as cheats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It'll probably be like the Source engine; where you can also use translucent textures to replace the vanilla ones without being caught by Vac (Though servers can now disable custom content entirely.)
Ns2 is/can be insane structure spam... i would say we think about the alien side too while touching arc balance.
Its not just because ppl love arc trains so much, why we see them so much - its just the only effective way to do any damage to the alien economy at some point anymore - if you dont manage to keep aliens low on res from the beginning - after they got their few essential tech upgrades all they need to spend their res on is whips and cysts and maybe crags - whips can counter gls and jps pretty well togheter with lifeforms- so there is only the arc left - which lets marines focus on lifeforms while the commander deals with the tons of structures
<!--quoteo(post=1944948:date=Jun 20 2012, 05:07 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jun 20 2012, 05:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about we scale the amount of available ai units to the number of captured tech points. More stations = more arcs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 This would mean that marines actually have to expand if they want more than say 2 arcs (limit ~2 per tech point), this is a big enough number to do significant damage but not enough to take down hives quickly (should be a good couple of minutes ). I have not see aliens ever come close to clearing a room of all marine buildings in anywhere near the time you see 4-6 arcs clearing a room.
The need for the marines to engage and deploy them is also a good idea as the sieges being set up in ns1 was always a fun battle and this is lost with the current arc trains
For those who knock hard caps...do you think gorge should have unlimited hydras (even if they cost res)?
Arcs are a god gun that requires no skill besides stopping the aliens from destroying them, there is no aiming...no gaining and holding a foothold like in ns1. VIP missions in CS got phased out from almost every map cycle...cos they where a bad mechanic, trying to add the VIP/escort component in has not worked, they need to have a greater level of on the ground interaction to allow the aliens half a chance to take them out before they clear a room out in a matter of seconds.
On a side note...you dont see a lot of sentries being put up and bases properly defended, instead there is a push to get arcs out as they are generally the game winner. So there is still ample opportunity to spend money on things along the way that most comms overlook in a rush to get arcs up. This shows how OP'd they really are, marines will risk losing res points and map control by not locking down res points with sentries etc, so they can get out 3-4 arcs as quickly as possible so they can simply and quickly destroy the aliens buildings/defenses and reclaim map and game control. I find it frustrating that marines lose base after base due to 0 defences being set up, the comm should have a reason to expand and hold area and not simply rush to get arc tech.
<!--quoteo(post=1945472:date=Jun 20 2012, 10:18 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jun 20 2012, 10:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On a side note...you dont see a lot of sentries being put up and bases properly defended, instead there is a push to get arcs out as they are generally the game winner. So there is still ample opportunity to spend money on things along the way that most comms overlook in a rush to get arcs up. This shows how OP'd they really are, marines will risk losing res points and map control by not locking down res points with sentries etc, so they can get out 3-4 arcs as quickly as possible so they can simply and quickly destroy the aliens buildings/defenses and reclaim map and game control. I find it frustrating that marines lose base after base due to 0 defences being set up, the comm should have a reason to expand and hold area and not simply rush to get arc tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is normal aggressive gameplay in any capture-point-based game. Generally the team with the stronger offense hits the enemy in more places faster than they can defend. The defenders are forced to try to scramble to defend or are pressed into attacking harder than the opposition. The team that wins is the one that kills more bases than they lose, and in general winds up with the greater net resource gain. Battlefield is a great example - it's very hard to defend a capture point, so more often than not, the team with the best coordinated attacks between squads will be the winner.
The ultimate culmination for marines at this point in beta is either the ARC train, or if you have less total res, spam meds + ammo + shield on a JP marine with a grenade launcher.
Generally, I prefer the attacking and trading bases MUCH more than turtling and defending. Not only does it feel like you're doing more, but like so many people say, it's no fun to fight tons of turrets.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no gaining and holding a foothold like in ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So aliens cant scout for robofactorys, cant scout and attack arc trains the second they leave the base, they dont have time to deal with arcs and marines on the way to the hive and also when they get deployed near the hive? There is basically no time to prepare against this right?
I think its not quite as easymode as you say it is... and if you really want it to work and are not in a pub game with super resoverflow because of no teamwork on either side - you basically need a phasegate and armory maybe more, to make it work most of the time. (arcs are expensive...)
Also arc rushes(like every bigger marine attack towards a hive) are great times to make a good marine base rush... a beacon can mean free dead arcs or at least force them back.
edit: im not saying arcs dont need some adjustments, but we should be careful. (just nerfing arcs without also addressing aliens a bit wont be working out)
My current gripes include the severe lack of strategy to this game and the fact that there is no longer early game, mid game, late game. Instead it's just start, then goes right to full tech endgame stalemate tower defense of Onos vs JP's till arc train shows up.
Seriously when they took away the need for a second hive they started killing the game. Also now they have given unlimited resources, they took away the commander's hard decisions on what to tech first. You dont need to choose when you can just get everything.
What on earth are they doing to this game? Do UWE really want a game where all you do is just get given everything and see who can out slog the other???
NEED STRATEGY AND VARIETY PLAY. Need to have certain weapons do certain purposes, or be better at certain purposes than other's. Need soft counter's and inniatives to do things differently, or make up an interesting strategy. Need different types of games every game.
IDEA'S:
Bring back second hive importance. Not only would this give you variety, it would also give aliens end game tech instead of nothing. You could make it that you can get double Hives of the same sort, so that you can actually choose a certain tech tree for your team(3 different tech trees, crag,shade,shift). Also with the fact that you can upgrade all class moves with one Hive it wouldn't be unbalanced like it was before.
Examples
-Double Crag Hive- Can get carapace 2 so that aliens are very heavily armoured, and all aliens start with carapace 1. Marine's would need to get flame thrower's, and grenade launcher's to bypass the armour.
-Double Shade Hive- All aliens have permanent cloak until they attack, are hit, or scanned. Buildings would still be cloaked by shades.
-Double Shift Hive- All aliens spawn with celerity and also respawn times are much faster. This gives aliens(even skulks,gorges) a strong role in the mid to late game as they can use speed and number's to just overwhelm marine's. Marine's would need to make sure they upgrade weapons to counter as the aliens won't have armour.
Perticulary with a free ability on second hive, if you managed to get a third hive you would have a free, ability plus 3 other upgrades to choose from which would make aliens very powerful late game. This gives alien an endgame tech which it is currently lacking.Though I would say go back to Onos being a second hive only thing, and a cost to research it. That way aliens would have to research Onos and then stomp, which means your not going to instantly have super armoured, or fast Onos instantly when the second hive is up.
Comments
Marines turtling in base didn't last so long when you could gas the armory and rocket the turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true. Doesn't look like its set to change though, aliens are more melee focused than ever.
Exactly why fade acid rockets need a return. As tier 3 fade tech.
Mind you I did see well over 20 arcs get destroyed all at once in a game yesterday. It was crazy.
I love the idea of needing marines to 'set up' the ARC one way or another, that'd definitely make for interesting gameplay though it could be tedious when multiple or mass ARCs are involved.
But then you're hardcapping things which is effectively admitting defeat on balancing them.
In a sane game there would be a hardcap on how many entities you could have. Like how I crashed a server by filling it up with cysts.
Hardcapping isn't just admitting defeat, it's also eliminating many funny scenarios.
A hardcap to prevent server crashes is different from a hardcap to balance the game.
This is like in starcraft 2. The 200 supply hardcap is there to keep games reasonable and discourage stalemates. You don't have your tanks or broodlords capped to 5 because blizzard couldn't figure out how to balance them.
It will also weaken the train should it be discovered at any point en route, as the aliens will KNOW they have a good chance to stop the siege.
I would add that they should need line of sight/marine sight/observatory scan to start firing. (I haven't noticed that it needs this, but I could be wrong)
I've noticed the optimisation might be dropping a bit too, when the Australian servers don't have players on them, I would jump on a overseas one, take Chicago for example.
I've noticed that the game is almost unplayable with a ping over 200~, it wasn't always the case in the last few patches. The net optimisation needs looking at big time, I know it's not ideal playing with a ping like that, but I've done it many times in CS/TF2 and at least I can still play the game :)
Anyway my rant :)
I like the idea to limit the arcs to 1 per robo facility. I wouldn't even mind if the power of the arc would be increased a bit as well (a little more HP, much more dmg) to be as strong as several arcs instead. That way it's possible to aliens to stop them when incoming. They could also be a bit slower in my opinion.
Heck, I would even consider it an option to add the good old electrify upgrade to arcs (upgraded from the proto lab?), when done, arcs have the same electrify passive that NS1 used. It'd increase the survivability of the thing even a bit more.
As for alien vision, I'm not sure what to think of it. Right now I stay in normal vision whilst roaming and switch it on when I think I see marines. Still though, I think it's a waste to let all the graphics go to waste in that mode.
Finally the endgame survivability - I'm sure that's just a matter of balancing, perhaps another ability/upgade for skulks.
Thanks for your input people!
I say limit it to the amount of techpoints captured.
2 per techpoint. scales well with the pacing of the round, as well, this way, and contributes to tying tech to techpoints.
That way a winning marine team could easily take 2 or more techpoints and be able to field 4 - 6 ARC's to deliver the coup de grace, but not able to turtle in a single base and simply send out trains to harrass the aliens while the players defended the base.
That way a winning marine team could easily take 2 or more techpoints and be able to field 4 - 6 ARC's to deliver the coup de grace, but not able to turtle in a single base and simply send out trains to harrass the aliens while the players defended the base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More people should listen to you
*\natural selection 2\ns2\lua\Alien_Client.lua
Row 458: <b>self.hiveBlips:SetIsVisible(<i>not self.darkVisionOn</i>)</b> --> <b>self.hiveBlips:SetIsVisible(<i>true</i>)</b>
Glad I could help!
"NS2 - The most modable game ever", truly!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No thanks, im pretty sure the team put that trade off in there for a reason. In my eyes you are nothing more than a cheater.
Edit: On the ark topic, I dont see what peoples problems are with capping the number of things. It seems like a good fix to me.
Super slow arcs seems more appropriate and fun. That escort will encourage a lot of player versus player interaction.
When we had this, the game was a lot more fun in many ways. Just sayin'.
Oh, I have never really thought about that I might be 'cheating'. =/
Since NS2 is and will be fully modable, I wonder what really should be classed as cheats.
Since NS2 is and will be fully modable, I wonder what really should be classed as cheats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It'll probably be like the Source engine; where you can also use translucent textures to replace the vanilla ones without being caught by Vac (Though servers can now disable custom content entirely.)
Its not just because ppl love arc trains so much, why we see them so much - its just the only effective way to do any damage to the alien economy at some point anymore - if you dont manage to keep aliens low on res from the beginning - after they got their few essential tech upgrades all they need to spend their res on is whips and cysts and maybe crags - whips can counter gls and jps pretty well togheter with lifeforms- so there is only the arc left - which lets marines focus on lifeforms while the commander deals with the tons of structures
+1
This would mean that marines actually have to expand if they want more than say 2 arcs (limit ~2 per tech point), this is a big enough number to do significant damage but not enough to take down hives quickly (should be a good couple of minutes ).
I have not see aliens ever come close to clearing a room of all marine buildings in anywhere near the time you see 4-6 arcs clearing a room.
The need for the marines to engage and deploy them is also a good idea as the sieges being set up in ns1 was always a fun battle and this is lost with the current arc trains
For those who knock hard caps...do you think gorge should have unlimited hydras (even if they cost res)?
Arcs are a god gun that requires no skill besides stopping the aliens from destroying them, there is no aiming...no gaining and holding a foothold like in ns1.
VIP missions in CS got phased out from almost every map cycle...cos they where a bad mechanic, trying to add the VIP/escort component in has not worked, they need to have a greater level of on the ground interaction to allow the aliens half a chance to take them out before they clear a room out in a matter of seconds.
On a side note...you dont see a lot of sentries being put up and bases properly defended, instead there is a push to get arcs out as they are generally the game winner.
So there is still ample opportunity to spend money on things along the way that most comms overlook in a rush to get arcs up.
This shows how OP'd they really are, marines will risk losing res points and map control by not locking down res points with sentries etc, so they can get out 3-4 arcs as quickly as possible so they can simply and quickly destroy the aliens buildings/defenses and reclaim map and game control.
I find it frustrating that marines lose base after base due to 0 defences being set up, the comm should have a reason to expand and hold area and not simply rush to get arc tech.
So there is still ample opportunity to spend money on things along the way that most comms overlook in a rush to get arcs up.
This shows how OP'd they really are, marines will risk losing res points and map control by not locking down res points with sentries etc, so they can get out 3-4 arcs as quickly as possible so they can simply and quickly destroy the aliens buildings/defenses and reclaim map and game control.
I find it frustrating that marines lose base after base due to 0 defences being set up, the comm should have a reason to expand and hold area and not simply rush to get arc tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is normal aggressive gameplay in any capture-point-based game. Generally the team with the stronger offense hits the enemy in more places faster than they can defend. The defenders are forced to try to scramble to defend or are pressed into attacking harder than the opposition. The team that wins is the one that kills more bases than they lose, and in general winds up with the greater net resource gain.
Battlefield is a great example - it's very hard to defend a capture point, so more often than not, the team with the best coordinated attacks between squads will be the winner.
The ultimate culmination for marines at this point in beta is either the ARC train, or if you have less total res, spam meds + ammo + shield on a JP marine with a grenade launcher.
Generally, I prefer the attacking and trading bases MUCH more than turtling and defending. Not only does it feel like you're doing more, but like so many people say, it's no fun to fight tons of turrets.
So aliens cant scout for robofactorys, cant scout and attack arc trains the second they leave the base, they dont have time to deal with arcs and marines on the way to the hive and also when they get deployed near the hive? There is basically no time to prepare against this right?
I think its not quite as easymode as you say it is... and if you really want it to work and are not in a pub game with super resoverflow because of no teamwork on either side - you basically need a phasegate and armory maybe more, to make it work most of the time. (arcs are expensive...)
Also arc rushes(like every bigger marine attack towards a hive) are great times to make a good marine base rush... a beacon can mean free dead arcs or at least force them back.
edit: im not saying arcs dont need some adjustments, but we should be careful. (just nerfing arcs without also addressing aliens a bit wont be working out)
Seriously when they took away the need for a second hive they started killing the game. Also now they have given unlimited resources, they took away the commander's hard decisions on what to tech first. You dont need to choose when you can just get everything.
What on earth are they doing to this game? Do UWE really want a game where all you do is just get given everything and see who can out slog the other???
NEED STRATEGY AND VARIETY PLAY. Need to have certain weapons do certain purposes, or be better at certain purposes than other's. Need soft counter's and inniatives to do things differently, or make up an interesting strategy. Need different types of games every game.
IDEA'S:
Bring back second hive importance. Not only would this give you variety, it would also give aliens end game tech instead of nothing. You could make it that you can get double Hives of the same sort, so that you can actually choose a certain tech tree for your team(3 different tech trees, crag,shade,shift). Also with the fact that you can upgrade all class moves with one Hive it wouldn't be unbalanced like it was before.
Examples
-Double Crag Hive- Can get carapace 2 so that aliens are very heavily armoured, and all aliens start with carapace 1. Marine's would need to get flame thrower's, and grenade launcher's to bypass the armour.
-Double Shade Hive- All aliens have permanent cloak until they attack, are hit, or scanned. Buildings would still be cloaked by shades.
-Double Shift Hive- All aliens spawn with celerity and also respawn times are much faster. This gives aliens(even skulks,gorges) a strong role in the mid to late game as they can use speed and number's to just overwhelm marine's. Marine's would need to make sure they upgrade weapons to counter as the aliens won't have armour.
Perticulary with a free ability on second hive, if you managed to get a third hive you would have a free, ability plus 3 other upgrades to choose from which would make aliens very powerful late game. This gives alien an endgame tech which it is currently lacking.Though I would say go back to Onos being a second hive only thing, and a cost to research it. That way aliens would have to research Onos and then stomp, which means your not going to instantly have super armoured, or fast Onos instantly when the second hive is up.
It would really bring back late game.
Anyone else's thought's?