I really like the option of locking alien abilities once chosen. Too many times on 1 hive I have both cara/regen researched. I fight with cara, run into a vent, swap for regen. After getting full health in 10sec (far away from infestation), I then grab cara to go in for a second go.
<!--quoteo(post=1940754:date=Jun 1 2012, 05:06 AM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Jun 1 2012, 05:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds like redemption, except it requires skill. What was the exploit again?
Also, I agree with fana that upgrades should be locked, regardless of hypermutation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was doing this all night most fun I've ever had, THEY RAGE SO MUCH!
I never understood the purpose of Hypermutation refunding res. It seems like a completely unnecessary feature. Why?
Right now we have all sorts of problems with aliens getting res too fast. What do we do? Enable them to REFUND ALL THEIR RES.
I'd much rather have it be this example: Evolve Onos -> get Hypermutation -> Hypermutation marks res cost of your life form -> go gorge or whatever -> when you evolve back, you get a DISCOUNT based on the res cost of that life form.
If you round a bit, let's say Onos costs 80 res. Hypermutation marks that you spent 80 res already, then you transform into a piggie. When you want to go back to Onos, you get a percentage of res credit towards your next life form. Not to say these numbers are perfect, but let's say the discount is based on half what you paid. You can return to Onos for 40 res, or you could go fade for 10 res. Or Lerk for free.
If you want to add an additional risk, make it so you lose your discount if you die while in the lower life form.
<!--quoteo(post=1940840:date=Jun 1 2012, 06:24 PM:name=Drummer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drummer @ Jun 1 2012, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->theres also the idea that hasnt been posted yet of a damaged onos fleeing to the next room, going gorge instead of skulk, healspraying himself, then going onos again. not sure on the timing of this idea, how long it would take to do 2 evolves and healing yourself, but i imagine it would be fairly quick<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure Regeneration is a fair bit faster, with the added bonus that you don't have to gestate in a defenseless egg form for a relatively long while. This tactic is really too slow to be of practical use, and has only -really- limited situations in which it's a tactic with merit to it. It's not really an exploit.
Turning to skulk when you're at low health wouldn't be a problem if the evolution didn't also reduce gestation times. If you're at low health, you really don't want to be one corner away as a defenseless egg for 3 seconds, running away seems like a smarter plan.
I'm not sure of how hypermutation works exactly. Is this possible:
- Alien comm spends 30 pres on lerk egg - Alien player with 45 pres hatches on it - Alien player evolves hypermutation - Alien player devolves into skulk. Now he has 45+30 pres - Alien player evolves into onos?
<!--quoteo(post=1941010:date=Jun 2 2012, 10:04 AM:name=Rowen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rowen @ Jun 2 2012, 10:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->pretty good<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Shamed I didnt think of this before :)
Hypermutation is also not so good for another reason. Let's say the alien team decides to go for mass Oni (for this example, let's assume there are several equally viable strategies and mass Oni is one of them). The marine comm obviously wants to counter them, so he researches jetpacks. Some marines then buy jetpacks from the armory. Once the Oni realize the marines can counter them, they devolve into a mixture of Fades and Lerks, now countering the marines. Thus, the marine team wasted a whole lot of resources to counter a specific strategy.
Point of this example: In a strategy game you don't want features that allow either side to adapt too quickly to the other.
I don't really think an ability that comes to everyone but but the Kham as essentially FREE counts much owards a 'skilless people whining' argument ... there being, y'know, no skill involved and all ....
<!--quoteo(post=1941025:date=Jun 2 2012, 05:20 AM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Jun 2 2012, 05:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hypermutation is also not so good for another reason. Let's say the alien team decides to go for mass Oni (for this example, let's assume there are several equally viable strategies and mass Oni is one of them). The marine comm obviously wants to counter them, so he researches jetpacks. Some marines then buy jetpacks from the armory. Once the Oni realize the marines can counter them, they devolve into a mixture of Fades and Lerks, now countering the marines. Thus, the marine team wasted a whole lot of resources to counter a specific strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Raza, you just gave a wonderful description of how hypermutation is a great ability to have. This is the way it was meant to be used! The method of handling resources just needs a fix.
<!--quoteo(post=1941025:date=Jun 2 2012, 05:20 AM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Jun 2 2012, 05:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hypermutation is also not so good for another reason. Let's say the alien team decides to go for mass Oni (for this example, let's assume there are several equally viable strategies and mass Oni is one of them). The marine comm obviously wants to counter them, so he researches jetpacks. Some marines then buy jetpacks from the armory. Once the Oni realize the marines can counter them, they devolve into a mixture of Fades and Lerks, now countering the marines. Thus, the marine team wasted a whole lot of resources to counter a specific strategy.
Point of this example: In a strategy game you don't want features that allow either side to adapt too quickly to the other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, this is very true. It's sorta muddling the RTS side of this game and making it more of an accessory to the FPS side (which does not need to happen).
<!--quoteo(post=1941348:date=Jun 3 2012, 11:14 PM:name=ssjsonic1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ssjsonic1 @ Jun 3 2012, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Raza, you just gave a wonderful description of how hypermutation is a great ability to have. This is the way it was meant to be used! The method of handling resources just needs a fix.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, dude, he's explaining why it's fundamentally a bad idea for a strategy game to let players recycle resources at will, and make nothing a 'commitment' unless the opponent is knocking at your door. At least some of the decision making done by aliens should be done up front, and they should be held accountable for those decisions, not given a free pass to not take any damage when they do something incorrect (or react to a mistake by the opponent that they seemingly should not be able to). You can tweak the numbers for hypermutation all you want, but it's still going to step on the strategy side of this game all the time.
Too much versatility is generally a bad thing. That's why the grenade launcher can't shoot bullets anymore!
<!--quoteo(post=1941352:date=Jun 4 2012, 02:34 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jun 4 2012, 02:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, this is very true. It's sorta muddling the RTS side of this game and making it more of an accessory to the FPS side (which does not need to happen).
No, dude, he's explaining why it's fundamentally a bad idea for a strategy game to let players recycle resources at will, and make nothing a 'commitment' unless the opponent is knocking at your door. At least some of the decision making done by aliens should be done up front, and they should be held accountable for those decisions, not given a free pass to not take any damage when they do something incorrect (or react to a mistake by the opponent that they seemingly should not be able to). You can tweak the numbers for hypermutation all you want, but it's still going to step on the strategy side of this game all the time.
Too much versatility is generally a bad thing. That's why the grenade launcher can't shoot bullets anymore!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines can recycle their purchased upgrades in shotguns, GL etc simply by having another marine pick them up when the 1st marine dies. Aliens cant do this at all, hypermutation does not even come close to offering this level of res saving capability.
Hypermutation is a storm in a tea cup with the above post primarily setting up situations that would rarely if ever actually happen on a battlefield. You dont exactly have the ability to change in 1 second so fleeing around a corner as onos only to be a skulk when the marine gets there is very unrealistic (or a marine that is crawling) in game play. The fact is that you still go into an egg for atleast 4-5 seconds from what I have tested which should be ample time for a marine to come round the corner...see egg...shoot egg...kill alien.
Aliens need to be versatile, its the only thing that will keep them in a battle in the long term. I have not seen hypermutation used in any of the way describes above that would in any way shape or form be seen as game changing. Aliens without either cara or celerity dont last long as they have too little armor and two slow...they can live with one but not two.
Hypermutation is useless to an alien side in its current form, sure your main gorge might find it handy to defend a base but its no use to front line aliens who actually die. So out of a team of 8 only 1 person has any real benefit (I exclude khamm as he is swimming in P-res). If Hypermutation made each consecutive lerk evolutions, after spawning, cheaper (say by 1) or atleast faster then it would be of some use/help to more alien players. To do this though you would have to remove hyper as a selectable personal upgrade and make it a team upgrade (perhaps as a result of 3 hives).
I feel like when I research hypermutation I switch it out right after evolving/devolving. An upgrade should be useful to your character and worth have AT ALL TIMES. All other 5 abilities follow this pattern. Most abilities also seem to tie in with their corresponding tech structures (ex: crag heals so does regen, shade covers buildings and camo covers players).
Hypermutation should have something to do with energy like the Shift does. Either a boost to energy gain after 2sec out of combat (like regen), or give increased energy regen when under 10% energy (so onos and fade can still auto attack and use basic skills vs flamethrowers).
Opinons? I really just dislike how hypermutation is more of a passive upgrade taking up one of your precious ability slots.
<!--quoteo(post=1941358:date=Jun 4 2012, 12:45 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jun 4 2012, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines can recycle their purchased upgrades in shotguns, GL etc simply by having another marine pick them up when the 1st marine dies. Aliens cant do this at all, hypermutation does not even come close to offering this level of res saving capability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand..?
Marines can never turn a shotgun or GL into pres. They can only turn it into "someone else's shotgun/GL". If a jetpack will win the game but none of them can afford it, they can't make their shotguns into a jetpack. They bought shotguns and now they have to make lemonade with them, so to speak.
Aliens get to turn their current lifeform into something else (e.g. fade by adding on X<50 pres to the hypermutation refund). Hypermutation doesn't simply 'trade' with a teammate.
<!--quoteo(post=1941366:date=Jun 4 2012, 01:52 AM:name=DggMuffin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DggMuffin @ Jun 4 2012, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hypermutation should have something to do with energy like the Shift does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another reason why<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118824" target="_blank"> serpico's idea</a> is worth looking at
I think hypermutation should be a commander research option rather than a lifeform upgrade to be honest. Maybe replace it with a better energy regen/higher energy pool upgrade for lifeforms. (And then get rid of the shift energy bonus as well, replace that with hypermutation benefits or something)
<!--quoteo(post=1941521:date=Jun 4 2012, 08:13 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jun 4 2012, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about we just get rid of hyper-mutation completely and add something more useful?
Adrenaline?
Focus?
Frenzy?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Posting this here too.
I don't mind if it's a tier 3 level tech upgrade for aliens. Right now, it is a gimmick upgrade that does nothing remotely useful.
<!--quoteo(post=1941503:date=Jun 4 2012, 05:31 PM:name=sumguy720)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sumguy720 @ Jun 4 2012, 05:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>What if hypermutation just gives you resources proportional to your health?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea, but its non-obvious. It would have to be well explained within the short description on the evolution menu.
<!--quoteo(post=1941522:date=Jun 4 2012, 07:19 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jun 4 2012, 07:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Posting this here too.
I don't mind if it's a tier 3 level tech upgrade for aliens. Right now, it is a gimmick upgrade that does nothing remotely useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes please give us Adrenaline, or maybe something that increases max energy. My fade would love you.
Comments
Also, I agree with fana that upgrades should be locked, regardless of hypermutation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was doing this all night most fun I've ever had, THEY RAGE SO MUCH!
Right now we have all sorts of problems with aliens getting res too fast. What do we do? Enable them to REFUND ALL THEIR RES.
I'd much rather have it be this example:
Evolve Onos -> get Hypermutation -> Hypermutation marks res cost of your life form -> go gorge or whatever -> when you evolve back, you get a DISCOUNT based on the res cost of that life form.
If you round a bit, let's say Onos costs 80 res. Hypermutation marks that you spent 80 res already, then you transform into a piggie. When you want to go back to Onos, you get a percentage of res credit towards your next life form.
Not to say these numbers are perfect, but let's say the discount is based on half what you paid. You can return to Onos for 40 res, or you could go fade for 10 res. Or Lerk for free.
If you want to add an additional risk, make it so you lose your discount if you die while in the lower life form.
I'm pretty sure Regeneration is a fair bit faster, with the added bonus that you don't have to gestate in a defenseless egg form for a relatively long while. This tactic is really too slow to be of practical use, and has only -really- limited situations in which it's a tactic with merit to it. It's not really an exploit.
Turning to skulk when you're at low health wouldn't be a problem if the evolution didn't also reduce gestation times. If you're at low health, you really don't want to be one corner away as a defenseless egg for 3 seconds, running away seems like a smarter plan.
- Alien comm spends 30 pres on lerk egg
- Alien player with 45 pres hatches on it
- Alien player evolves hypermutation
- Alien player devolves into skulk. Now he has 45+30 pres
- Alien player evolves into onos?
Shamed I didnt think of this before :)
Personally, I think it should be removed.
Point of this example: In a strategy game you don't want features that allow either side to adapt too quickly to the other.
Those Who Get Headshots Do, Those Who Can't, Complain.
Raza, you just gave a wonderful description of how hypermutation is a great ability to have. This is the way it was meant to be used! The method of handling resources just needs a fix.
Point of this example: In a strategy game you don't want features that allow either side to adapt too quickly to the other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, this is very true. It's sorta muddling the RTS side of this game and making it more of an accessory to the FPS side (which does not need to happen).
<!--quoteo(post=1941348:date=Jun 3 2012, 11:14 PM:name=ssjsonic1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ssjsonic1 @ Jun 3 2012, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Raza, you just gave a wonderful description of how hypermutation is a great ability to have. This is the way it was meant to be used! The method of handling resources just needs a fix.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, dude, he's explaining why it's fundamentally a bad idea for a strategy game to let players recycle resources at will, and make nothing a 'commitment' unless the opponent is knocking at your door. At least some of the decision making done by aliens should be done up front, and they should be held accountable for those decisions, not given a free pass to not take any damage when they do something incorrect (or react to a mistake by the opponent that they seemingly should not be able to). You can tweak the numbers for hypermutation all you want, but it's still going to step on the strategy side of this game all the time.
Too much versatility is generally a bad thing. That's why the grenade launcher can't shoot bullets anymore!
No, dude, he's explaining why it's fundamentally a bad idea for a strategy game to let players recycle resources at will, and make nothing a 'commitment' unless the opponent is knocking at your door. At least some of the decision making done by aliens should be done up front, and they should be held accountable for those decisions, not given a free pass to not take any damage when they do something incorrect (or react to a mistake by the opponent that they seemingly should not be able to). You can tweak the numbers for hypermutation all you want, but it's still going to step on the strategy side of this game all the time.
Too much versatility is generally a bad thing. That's why the grenade launcher can't shoot bullets anymore!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines can recycle their purchased upgrades in shotguns, GL etc simply by having another marine pick them up when the 1st marine dies.
Aliens cant do this at all, hypermutation does not even come close to offering this level of res saving capability.
Hypermutation is a storm in a tea cup with the above post primarily setting up situations that would rarely if ever actually happen on a battlefield.
You dont exactly have the ability to change in 1 second so fleeing around a corner as onos only to be a skulk when the marine gets there is very unrealistic (or a marine that is crawling) in game play.
The fact is that you still go into an egg for atleast 4-5 seconds from what I have tested which should be ample time for a marine to come round the corner...see egg...shoot egg...kill alien.
Aliens need to be versatile, its the only thing that will keep them in a battle in the long term. I have not seen hypermutation used in any of the way describes above that would in any way shape or form be seen as game changing. Aliens without either cara or celerity dont last long as they have too little armor and two slow...they can live with one but not two.
Hypermutation is useless to an alien side in its current form, sure your main gorge might find it handy to defend a base but its no use to front line aliens who actually die.
So out of a team of 8 only 1 person has any real benefit (I exclude khamm as he is swimming in P-res).
If Hypermutation made each consecutive lerk evolutions, after spawning, cheaper (say by 1) or atleast faster then it would be of some use/help to more alien players.
To do this though you would have to remove hyper as a selectable personal upgrade and make it a team upgrade (perhaps as a result of 3 hives).
Hypermutation should have something to do with energy like the Shift does. Either a boost to energy gain after 2sec out of combat (like regen), or give increased energy regen when under 10% energy (so onos and fade can still auto attack and use basic skills vs flamethrowers).
Opinons? I really just dislike how hypermutation is more of a passive upgrade taking up one of your precious ability slots.
Aliens cant do this at all, hypermutation does not even come close to offering this level of res saving capability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand..?
Marines can never turn a shotgun or GL into pres. They can only turn it into "someone else's shotgun/GL". If a jetpack will win the game but none of them can afford it, they can't make their shotguns into a jetpack. They bought shotguns and now they have to make lemonade with them, so to speak.
Aliens get to turn their current lifeform into something else (e.g. fade by adding on X<50 pres to the hypermutation refund). Hypermutation doesn't simply 'trade' with a teammate.
<!--quoteo(post=1941366:date=Jun 4 2012, 01:52 AM:name=DggMuffin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DggMuffin @ Jun 4 2012, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hypermutation should have something to do with energy like the Shift does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another reason why<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118824" target="_blank"> serpico's idea</a> is worth looking at
Adrenaline?
Focus?
Frenzy?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Posting this here too.
I don't mind if it's a tier 3 level tech upgrade for aliens. Right now, it is a gimmick upgrade that does nothing remotely useful.
I like this idea, but its non-obvious. It would have to be well explained within the short description on the evolution menu.
I don't mind if it's a tier 3 level tech upgrade for aliens. Right now, it is a gimmick upgrade that does nothing remotely useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes please give us Adrenaline, or maybe something that increases max energy. My fade would love you.