Please End The 5 Min Game
rebo
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2734Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2734Members
<div class="IPBDescription">its killing NS</div> I dont care how you do it, but it needs to end. I play exlusively with experienced players and we all agree that the 5 min game will be the death of NS. Every map has been disected, gorges know exactly how to minimize the time for the 2nd hive and commanders know that phase rushing will result in a quick capture of 2 hives. This has been so honed in such a short period of time that 5 min long games are the norm, unless you play with newbs whoever gets 2 hives first wins and its hurting the game.
Can a developer please! address this Marines are not getting any upgrades before they have lost and aliens as fade + umbra have no challange. People i play with are getting really racked off with it, the game has decended from skillful skulking and ferocious and wiley marines using all the tech availibale to them. To two teams running to the other hives and securing with the most basic un upgraded wepaons. There is NO other way to win.
sure there will be people coming on saying blah blah i won with 1 hive, blah blah i won vs onos etc etc. But these cases are so rare and to be honest onbly happen when a lesser experienced player makes a massive balls up. The fun of NS is being lost and being replaced by bland rushes.
Can a developer please! address this Marines are not getting any upgrades before they have lost and aliens as fade + umbra have no challange. People i play with are getting really racked off with it, the game has decended from skillful skulking and ferocious and wiley marines using all the tech availibale to them. To two teams running to the other hives and securing with the most basic un upgraded wepaons. There is NO other way to win.
sure there will be people coming on saying blah blah i won with 1 hive, blah blah i won vs onos etc etc. But these cases are so rare and to be honest onbly happen when a lesser experienced player makes a massive balls up. The fun of NS is being lost and being replaced by bland rushes.
Comments
Hopefully noted by the developers.
<i>unless you play with newbs whoever gets 2 hives first wins and its hurting the game.</i>
not really, a good team can take a hive and then it could last for a long time. If you believe that whoever gets 2 hives is the winner then I dont know what to tell you.... Do you just give up once the other team has 2 hives?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> you have never made a comeback with agood teamwork?
Zoda, yes this is in servers usually locked where all the players are on voice comm and co-ordinate. 2 hive lock with basic defense at each hive is very hard to beat, even a single phase gate is hard enough. But add TF and 3 T at each hive, its damn near impossible... as soon as theres incomming at each hive, its called on comm and everyone piles in. Soon the number of T's go up and each hive has 10+ turrets.
If the hive isnt taken fades go up in about 5 mins, and given that any experienced comm will have spent monies on phase and hive def there is no HA or HMG or upgrades. Marine base falls shortly later. It is bad for the game because it becomes mundane.
1. If you're the winner. You've done something incredibly right.
2. If you're the loser. You're done something incredibly wrong.
But any team that fully utilizes the communication possibilities voicecom gives is shure to win a game.
I don't really know how the team ment for the game to be, if the point of it is to be decided within the first 5-10 minutes of the game and the following 20 minutes are supposed to be a loosing battle, then it's fine as it is. If there's supposed to be more to NS than this, then something really needs to be changed.
Besides, in my opinion, if there's a five minute game, the teams are <i>not</i> coordinated. Aliens should be scouting their hives and notice that there's a phase being build. All aliens flock to that hive and keep pressure on the phase until it goes down. If you play with really experienced people like you say, your games should be a lot longer than 5 minutes. Whenever I play with people from #naturalselection that are experienced, the games are usually long and fun.
I have to agree with Hang Loose here: The 5 minute game means one team screwed up huge, and one team did pretty well.
part of the problem is probably how many people you are playing with though. remember this game was balanced for 6 vs 6. i find that after 7 people per team, its just rush rush rush. its not a tactical game when 12 marines just shoot down a hallway, or 10 skulks just run around in a room chomping blindly. try a server with only 12-14 people, i think you will enjoy it much more.
For those who think that the 5 minute rush is essential to NS, perhaps you should go back to CS where all the games are 5 minutes.
The point here is that people want a good game, not a fast game.
There is a difference.
Regards,
Savant
For those who think that the 5 minute rush is essential to NS, perhaps you should go back to CS where all the games are 5 minutes.
The point here is that people want a good game, not a fast game.
There is a difference.
Regards,
Savant<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i><b>The '5 minute win' is a sign of poor balance and is something that should be looked at.</b></i>
It is only a difference in the balance between marines/aliens, it is a balance issue with the players. If you are consistantly loosing in 5 mins to skulk rushes, then your marines are not good enough. Equally, if the marines phase two of your hives before you can get in there, then you've got a crap alien team.
The game should not be made harder/easier for people who are good/crap at it.
I've been in more than enough "good" matches to know that this isn't a "balance" issue. It's a matter of strategy, skill and teamwork.
Issue: Marines take two hives.
They're down to close to 0 resources for a while, it'll take time to get enough for even 1 tf & 1 turret. Thus, send 1 - 2 aliens to a hive to make noise. Comm orders everyone to defend that hive. Rest of the aliens attack the 2nd hive, kill any remaining guards, and destroy phase gate.
Comm will either send out attack party to reclaim hive or abandon it. If comm sends attack party, aliens hit first hive, destroy phase gate while attackers are incapable of making a fast return, and destroy all the structures there. Massive resource hit for the marines, aliens have the advantage.
Aliens get two hives:
If they're experienced players, they've rushed, so you can assume 2 hives, 4 resource nodes, and maybe an upgrade chamber or two. Ping both hives w/ sensory dish (didn't build one? what are you, simple?) and determine the least defended hive. Dispatch a marine (hopefully parasited) to the heavily protected one. While he's en-route, an attack party of unparasited marines travels to least defended hive.
Drop ammo for decoy marine, and he goes to town. Probably dies, but maybe not. As aliens rush to defend initial hive, attack party opens fire. Assuming 3-4 attacking marines, it's about 2 clips each. Aliens lose 1 hive, and if they split their forces to defend both, there's a chance the decoy marine (if he's really good), can take the first hive.
Issue: Marines have just reclaimed 2nd hive.
While the marines are proudly surveying the wreckage of your 2nd hive, gather up all 2nd level units, skulks and gorges, and hit the marine base. Experienced rushing marines will have little to no static defenses, and at best 2-3 marines. Make short work of the troops with rushing skulks, and kill the phase gate right away. Gorges can heal, and infantry portals go down fast. w/ no more reinforcements available, send the skulks back to the only remaining hive for base defence, or, if the hive has static defenses, send them to the least defended marine hive to destroy phase gate. Set advanced aliens on the command centre / advanced structures. Dispatch gorge to original base or new base with the skulks to retake hive.
Issue: Aliens have just sacked your main base.
Drop a command centre and two infantry portals at the most defensible hive. Split troops between both available hives, and dig in. It's only a few fades before they're back to skulks, and you CAN kill a lone fade, can't you soldier?
So then you have all teams rushing and no one ends up playing long games. Sorry, but I don't find that fun at all.
If people want 5 minutes games, go play CS. There are 20,000 five minute games available to play. For NS I'd like to see something different.
Regards,
Savant
I was in a game commed by a clan member his tactics were 2ip, armoury, obs, phase. Then he sent whole team to the 1st hive built a phase outside and we just wasted the hive any spawning skulks got nailed pretty quick.
Guess what 'we won', guess what else it was the most boring game on NS I've ever played.
The general view is that 'Marine overpowered at start, Alien overpowered at end'. The following tactic sort of balances it:
1 tactic that I think leads to a good game is Move the base (cc and all) to a hive. Because this modifies the game costing the marines a bit of money and time the sides are alot more balanced at the start. Also because the aliens can never get onii the endgame can last longer and is a bit more balanced. And generally the midgame lasts alot longer. Some people think this is the most effective strat, I disagree, but it does make for enjoyable games.
You've just answered your own question. It sounds like you're expecting the other team to play "your" way. Guess what, they don't care how you want to play. They want to win. Stop them. You know what they're up to. Formulate a plan to cut off their attack. Stop backing yourself into a corner and start taking the initiative. Force them to play "your" way by organizing your team and using precision attacks.
If someone wants to win, they'll do it in anyway whatsoever. Winning is everything to most players.
Change your tactics.
Change your outlook on what is important.
<b>Evolve.</b>
They game's name is what it is for a reason. Jeez.
-_-
Then let's call Natural Selection "CS2," give the game a 5 minute clock and get it over with already. Sheesh, there are PLENTY of legitimate ways to take the 'rush' out of the early game without taking the fun out of it.
The problem is that too many people want to turn NS into a CS clone with 5 minute match times.
Frankly I thought that was one thing that we DIDN'T want to happen.
Regards,
Savant
6 good players vs 6 good players rarely ends in 5 minutes.
6 good players vs 6 good players rarely ends in 5 minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or 3) You're dead because their whole team is here and they just place down another command chair and infantry portals and recycle stuff at main, permanently locking down that hive and wasting your teams time at main.
Yes the skulk rush is a total joke unless you have complete idiots on the marine team who wander off or don't watch the door at all. On the other hand the marine rush can work very well especially when you consider that marines are going to be spawning 2 or 3x as fast as the skulks.
example: 6 Aliens vs 6 Marines, marines lose in 5 minutes, 3 marines drop 3 marines come in , same 6 aliens win in 5 minutes. Marines leave again due to losing.
and any 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3, just doesnt work on public servers with random people, you need 12 to 14 people games for it to be more leveled out. min 5 vs 5.
If you have a same set of 6 marines then you should, make sure comm knows what to do. Change tactic, try an all out marine hive attack, try moving base, try defending to build up, even w/o a comm 2 guys can tell were hive is by watching were the skulks are coming from.
This game is hard, if you spawn and stand still for 3 seconds at start of a game you may have already lost that game. Though I do miss the slow games where as a skulk I could just hang out over doorways, or as a fade just stand in hallways cloaked waiting for a marine to walk by and show his back, I like to find aserver full of newbs, just to have a slower game, and just drown out the, "how do I build this".
oh yeah and the <b>SUPER SECRET to BEATING the SKULK RUSH</b>, 1 or 2 people get at farthest points from entrances on some maps 1 man can cover 2 doorways, crouch watch and listen let someone else build, when skulk comes at you AIM your lmg and squeeze trigger for 1 or 2 secs, ded skulk, if there is no more skulks and you hear no more feet goto: reload gun, if you empty mag goto: switch to pistol, AIM fire. Its just that easy , yes you and your fellow Marines will soon be roasting skulk over the open microwave beam singing merrily and swapping jokes. Sorry if I sound sarcastic, but I love being lmg,la, and pistol as much as a skulk or fade, but maybee Im an idiot cause other than using a lerk to give umbra support , I never use lerk or Ono.
Actually I have played a few games where all teams followed these guidelines (or something similar) and It went on and on for like 3 hours and it was fun as hell. The situation kept switching from alien advantage to marine advantage all the time and it was very exciting!
If the hive isnt taken fades go up in about 5 mins, and given that any experienced comm will have spent monies on phase and hive def there is no HA or HMG or upgrades. Marine base falls shortly later. It is bad for the game because it becomes mundane.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm... it's about 15 minutes for fades, unless the ready-room exploit is used, in which case you are talking about 8-9 minutes.
The problem is that the marines feel that they must take two hives, rather than one hive and tech. As you point out, the commanders go all out for two hives, and if they fail, it is usually fatal as they haven't taken resources nodes and have spent lots of resources in the push.
There are really two sides to the problem:
1. Marine rushing is usually successful and very, very hard to defend against (IMO because the aliens can't build any early defenses and with one hive the aliens respawn so slowly that marines can win battles by attrition, and there are at least two, sometimes three locations that the aliens must defend - their own hive, the 2nd hive and sometimes a 2-hive siege location).
2. Resourcing and getting HMG/HA in time to fight the fades usually isn't successful, unless you manage to get lots of resources (easy on large servers, hard on small, also depends on the map layout, resource richness (nothing with its 13 res nodes vs hera with 9) and the alien starting hive.
I'd argue that rushing should be made slightly harder, mostly by adjusting the alien spawn rate so the aliens can take large losses without losing the game, and taking a look at the resource game to see if it is too tight for smaller marine teams so option #2 is viable for them.
Conversely vs an all fade + lerk alien team, sure there is a chance of a ninja siege but when i play every siege position is covered till the assult begins, it makes sense. sixty seconds later the marine base or third hive is hit by 7x5 acid rocket+ umbra = 35 acid rockets from impervious fades - sorry but nothing can sustain against thatm.
If there are any ppl here who regularly come back from basic 2 hives lock then pls pm me and come to the great servers i play on. Very experienced players great team work, but alas very short games <b>soley</b> decided by early skulking.
NoImagination:: Thanks for the extended desciption, this is exactly how i feel.
The ONLY map where this situation is nearly broken is ns_nothing, where the marines secure only CBF. Then a REAL mid-game starts marines have lots of RP to move swiftly up the tech tree and there are many secret seige spots, and the alien half of the map is big, and slow to transverse as fades dont move 'that' fast. The problem is still evident tho =/