Marines
TremanN
Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8471Members
Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8471Members
Comments
<b><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Snip<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
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Let me be more specific. Why does the rifle have a melee attack?
Master what are you even talking about? Did I say take away the hatchet?
Let me be more specific. Why does the rifle have a melee attack?
Master what are you even talking about? Did I say take away the hatchet?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Snip - If you cannot engage with your fellow humans in a constructive and friendly manner your posts will be removed.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
Then I was talking about the hatchet.
Is that better? Can you answer me now?
Let me be more specific. Why does the rifle have a melee attack?
Master what are you even talking about? Did I say take away the hatchet?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the main reason the marines have the rifle but is as a last ditch resort to being skulked,
when your rifle clip runs out and the skulk is in melee distance there is not enough time to reload and/or switch weapons some times.
Therefore, the rifle but is supposed to fill that gap, its supposed to be a last ditch attack a marine can do, as jumping around or switching
doesn't do enough to give them a chance of surviving against decent skulks.
I will say that the stun feels a bit over the top (as a skulk because you lose control) but on the whole i am quite happy that the marines have something
they can do against skulks right in there face.
It would be frustrating for marines if they coudent do anything against skulks with no ammo, as switching to the axe simply takes to much time.
<!--quoteo(post=1937489:date=May 19 2012, 06:53 PM:name=chickenboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chickenboy @ May 19 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the main reason the marines have the rifle but is as a last ditch resort to being skulked,
when your rifle clip runs out and the skulk is in melee distance there is not enough time to reload and/or switch weapons some times.
Therefore, the rifle but is supposed to fill that gap, its supposed to be a last ditch attack a marine can do, as jumping around or switching
doesn't do enough to give them a chance of surviving against decent skulks.
I will say that the damage that the stun feels a bit over the top but on the whole i am quite happy that the marines have something
they can do against skulks right in there face.
It would be frustrating for marines if they coudent do anything against skulks with no ammo, as switching to the axe simply takes to much time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as an alien, what is my last ditch macgyver gimmick ability for when marines are shooting at me?
The marine has a switchaxe to allow the marine to engage the enemy even when ammunition is depleted. The switchaxe also forces marines to take risk if they wish to do a large amount of damage to a structure.
What is the risk?
When a skulk attacks an extractor at melee range, it's still killing it slower than the axe (even with the new harvester health).
as an alien, what is my last ditch macgyver gimmick ability for when marines are shooting at me?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say as an alien that most of the time movement is the key to survive
using the aliens as example , with the skulk wall bouncing and hiding behind cover, simply letting the marines waste shots should be your main idea, as well as using aumbush tactics or mass rushing to kill marines.
with fade blinking in and out of combat is deadly, while lerk is most times to fast to go down to marine fire
the gorge isnt really supposed to be at the front line, but even he has a belly slide to escape (somewhat)
onos doesnt need to run, he just kills everything
To sum up, the aliens dont have a "gimmick" ability, and yes i will somewhat agree that letting marines waste bullets on walls isnt the best way to attack as a skulks, but with tactics such as wall bounce to get in super quickly, aumbushs via vents, and just plain overrunning with two+ skulks from different directions, aliens can severely overpower marines with their firepower in close combat.
This is why i think it is justified for the marines to have this last ditch gimmick for the rifle, to give them something simply for skulk combat.
The marine has a switchaxe to allow the marine to engage the enemy even when ammunition is depleted. The switchaxe also forces marines to take risk if they wish to do a large amount of damage to a structure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should be marine be given an extra chance at close range? Skulks attack is solely melee range, while marines can deal equal damage at 1 foot or 100 feet.
When a skulk attacks an extractor at melee range, it's still killing it slower than the axe (even with the new harvester health).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The risk is that they have put away their primary weapon to deal damage to the structure. If a skulk attacks a marine who is switch-axing a harvester, the probability of the skulk winning the fight is much higher than if the marine was holding their rifle.
When a skulk attacks an extractor at melee range, it's still killing it slower than the axe (even with the new harvester health).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
getting killed before even able to switch back to rifle?
as you very well know aliens are faster then marines and dont need as much time to react to situations like that(harvester under attack)
why am i explaining that to you? you play ns2 longer than me! you know that!
Edit: damn hugh beat me to it.
So, you think that it's too difficult for a skulk to kill a marine?
Because in essence the marines have only one way in which to kill a skulk, emptying a rifle clip into it, and the great weakness of this is that the time it takes to reload is the time it takes for a fast moving skulk to kill you.
Without the back-up of the hit, which does a measly 20 damage and the stun only helps if other marines are nearby (not enough stun for the reload time)
it would be a lot more frustrating to play and die as a marine simply because you ran out of ammo on the gun, and really this applies only to skulk vs marine gameplay as other aliens are not affected by the rifle but at all.
in conclusion, to give a marine a tiny chance at close range, and not make the game into a marine shoots at skulks and misses , skulks eats marine.
it sounds like it, but it cant be it, because it obviously isnt. *confused*
No.
That's true. However, the skulk doesn't have an alternative weapon that compares with the rifle.
If you abstract away all the things that could happen before/after, LMGs kill resource towers faster than skulks do...and it still seems wrong.
Even if the marines have to spend time switching to/from the axe, they at least <i>have that option</i>. The versatility here is a source of power for marines.
At the very least, the axe should kill extractors just as quickly as skulks' bites do. Not faster, perhaps slower (to counterbalance the fact that marines can react to incoming skulks and switch to their ranged weapon, even though they had just been axing a building).
<!--quoteo(post=1937502:date=May 19 2012, 07:09 PM:name=Venatos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Venatos @ May 19 2012, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->getting killed before even able to switch back to rifle?
as you very well know aliens are faster then marines and dont need as much time to react to situations like that(harvester under attack)
why am i explaining that to you? you play ns2 longer than me! you know that!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're explaining it to me because I wanted you to say that. I didn't want to put words in your mouth, but I was reasonably sure that the justification given for the high axe damage would be "b-b-b-but they have to switch weapons!"
As for your explanation: it's not that aliens need less time to react, but that they have to react in less time. Their options are to run away or go all-in attacking something that has already started damaging them. Marines, on the other hand, can switch away from the axe and use the rifle on incoming enemies like they would normally, and the time they spent axing the building is a strict bonus compared to what they would've gotten if they were on the other team as a skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1937505:date=May 19 2012, 07:11 PM:name=chickenboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chickenboy @ May 19 2012, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because in essence the marines have only one way in which to kill a skulk, emptying a rifle clip into it, and the great weakness of this is that the time it takes to reload is the time it takes for a fast moving skulk to kill you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see anything wrong with this, though. It's tough but fair. This is what I was talking about in my thread on "simplifying the game" - removing all the unnecessary vanity mechanics that make it difficult to continue designing this game.
Plenty of great, classic games are built on simple, brutal statements like "All you can do is shoot at him and if he gets to you he can kill you really fast" - through practice and dedication, players can get really good at shooting stuff and really good at approaching stuff to bite it. When you start adding things like the rifle butt stun, you de-emphasize that practice and dedication in favour of instant gratification (and at the cost of long-term replayability).
Without the back-up of the hit, which does a measly 20 damage and the stun only helps if other marines are nearby (not enough stun for the reload time)
it would be a lot more frustrating to play and die as a marine simply because you ran out of ammo on the gun, and really this applies only to skulk vs marine gameplay as other aliens are not affected by the rifle but at all.
in conclusion, to give a marine a tiny chance at close range, and not make the game into a marine shoots at skulks and misses , skulks eats marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to bring up NS1 yet again, but marines in NS1 did not have a rifle butt attack. Skulks moved MUCH faster and were smaller targets. Why is rifle butt needed now? Seems to me like it's under the category... "Hey guys, wouldn't it be cool if..."
I haven't seen any threads about it. Would you rather another thread about performance and optimization?
Yes, 20 damage. Out of 80 hp for a skulk.
If you abstract away all the things that could happen before/after, LMGs kill resource towers faster than skulks do...and it still seems wrong.
The versatility here is a source of power for marines.
You're explaining it to me because I wanted you to say that. I didn't want to put words in your mouth, but I was reasonably sure that the justification given for the high axe damage would be "b-b-b-but they have to switch weapons!"
Plenty of great, classic games are built on simple, brutal statements like "All you can do is shoot at him and if he gets to you he can kill you really fast" - through practice and dedication, players can get really good at shooting stuff and really good at approaching stuff to bite it. When you start adding things like the rifle butt stun, you de-emphasize that practice and dedication in favour of instant gratification (and at the cost of long-term replayability).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i thought it was a trap but didnt get the outcome i thought i would get, please keep it short and simple for me! i get easyly confused as english isnt my native language.
do you want harvesters with more health?, the riflebut removed/changed?, skulks with ranged attacks? i dont get it man.
Edit: nevermind, i think i got it from the your short post after the one i quoted
do you want harvesters with more health?, the riflebut removed/changed?, skulks with ranged attacks? i dont get it man.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure, honestly.
I think the riflebutt shouldn't be in the game, and axes shouldn't kill harvesters faster than bite. Sometimes less is more - we don't even need to have a lot of these ideas in the game, and they bring their own problems with them.
...but come on. <i>GEARS</i>!