<!--quoteo(post=1937501:date=May 19 2012, 03:08 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 19 2012, 03:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937501"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The risk is that they have put away their primary weapon to deal damage to the structure. If a skulk attacks a marine who is switch-axing a harvester, the probability of the skulk winning the fight is much higher than if the marine was holding their rifle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Much Higher"? You can hear the Skulk coming a mile away - There is no risk to pulling out your axe for a Harvester, the only thing you need to decide is do I try to kill the Skulk or do I keep on attacking the Harvester and hope I kill it.
There's risk for a Skulk to attack to an RT, can't see how the same can be said for a marine.
Butt barely does any damage. It's pretty risky to do it rather than switch to your pistol or something and the skulk can avoid it by not jumping. Not to mention skulks seem to go flying like a football sometimes when you use it so you don't even know where they go. It's pretty risky to use when you can just pull out your pistol and finish off the skulk, to suffice.
Personally I only use it to imagine myself in the scene from Shaun of the Dead where they're hitting the zombie with pool sticks.
<!--quoteo(post=1937518:date=May 20 2012, 01:31 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 20 2012, 01:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937518"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure, honestly.
I think the riflebutt shouldn't be in the game, and axes shouldn't kill harvesters faster than bite. Sometimes less is more - we don't even need to have a lot of these ideas in the game, and they bring their own problems with them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> thank you, i see your point. i would argue, that the riflebutt while not neccesary, still adds to the game without causing problems. it is true, that it can sometimes save your sorry ass as a marine, but at least in my experiance it is pretty rare and rare things are good. "wow that was close" or "damn that bitc* got me" or "haha i got him, im alive" are all memorable situations and memorys because they are rare.
about the extractor/harvester, i actually dont care which one takes longer to kill, as long as it plays balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1937512:date=May 19 2012, 03:22 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 19 2012, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937512"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An easy way to see what Tremann and I are talking about: turn off the rifle butt in a public build, and see if anybody actually sheds tears. If not, it wasn't needed and you just bought yourself some CPU cycles and a simpler design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, the Stun is absolutely infuriating as a Skulk. It simply makes no sense for a team game, you have an emergency attack/reload time trade-off which is removed if you're fighting more than one marine.
The only reason this isn't a problem in public games is because barely anyone uses it and people aren't great at using it.
<!--quoteo(post=1937510:date=May 19 2012, 07:17 PM:name=TremanN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TremanN @ May 19 2012, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to bring up NS1 yet again, but marines in NS1 did not have a rifle butt attack. Skulks moved MUCH faster and were smaller targets. Why is rifle butt needed now? Seems to me like it's under the category... <b>"Hey guys, wouldn't it be cool if..."</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think it is some of this. a little melee is a pretty common FPS ability. i dont have a problem with it if: it is useful and used as a defense alternative to jump / straff, not overpowered, takes skill, and most important isnt overly annoying to the alien player.
<!--quoteo(post=1937518:date=May 19 2012, 04:31 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 19 2012, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937518"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure, honestly.
I think the riflebutt shouldn't be in the game, and axes shouldn't kill harvesters faster than bite. Sometimes less is more - we don't even need to have a lot of these ideas in the game, and they bring their own problems with them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marine RTs have to have higher health because aliens have super mobile classes. Marines move much slower than aliens hence their RTs need to be beefier to make up for it. The recent buff to harvester health fixed the ridiculous nature of the super low HP harvester, though. The quicker maturation times also make it have higher health so that also helped. If marines had such low health RTs skulks could so quickly run in and take down so many RTs before marines even had a chance to respond to them.
i have decidet to let you in on my first riflebutt memory: standing in computerlab, facing sub access, guarding that long hallway, because the alien hive is in sub. around the corner at the far end comes a fast skulk, he bounces of the right wall, i miss him. he bounces of the left wall, i miss him. im out of ammo and in my panic i do a riflebutt while he is still 3 meters away, i miss him....comicly far. he jumps me in the face and kills me with one bite because i was low on health.
now without riflebutt that would have been the equivalent of a cool movie scene. but with riflebutt it got my first realy imprinted memory because i missed so far with the riflebutt and fell over to the first bite i loughed my ass off and had to stop playing for like 2 minutes.
i dont know if anyone else sees the humor in this, but i still chuckle when i think about it.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1937508:date=May 20 2012, 12:15 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 20 2012, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Plenty of great, classic games are built on simple, brutal statements like "All you can do is shoot at him and if he gets to you he can kill you really fast" - through practice and dedication, players can get really good at shooting stuff and really good at approaching stuff to bite it. When you start adding things like the rifle butt stun, you de-emphasize that practice and dedication in favour of instant gratification (and at the cost of long-term replayability).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not sure why you're attacking the axe mechanic to get rid of the rifle butt stun. Having to make a conscious choice between switching to a melee weapon to kill an alien structure or just gun it down with the rifle is a good gameplay mechanic that rewards experience. It worked perfectly in NS1 and there haven't been any changes from that formula to NS2 that imply that it isn't still a good gameplay mechanic.
The speed of which aliens/marines kill harvesters is a purely numbers-related balancing question and not really worth discussing outside of those parameters.
At least we can agree that rifle butt stun always has and always will be a bad idea.
I think the rifle butt will be more evident as a problem once performance and hitreg improve to the point where the rifle is actually a reliable weapon. Once that happens, rifle-wielding marines will be strong enough at medium range to deserve to be weak at close range, so giving them an extra chance in the form of the rifle butt with its silly stun will be too much.
<!--quoteo(post=1937502:date=May 20 2012, 09:09 AM:name=Venatos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Venatos @ May 20 2012, 09:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->getting killed before even able to switch back to rifle?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is actually not entirely true as a2 is now 4bite. straight up axe vs cara skulk, axe will win on 4bite. 3bite axe wins against noncara skulk as well. Simplification ofcourse, but the point is axe has relative dps advantage. Not that i personally think it should be different, but just interesting facts. I believe it was the same with ns1 knife vs skulk?
oldassgamersJoin Date: 2011-02-02Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1937475:date=May 19 2012, 10:24 PM:name=TremanN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TremanN @ May 19 2012, 10:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do marines have a melee attack on the rifle? I'd really like someone to explain this to me like I'm a 5 year old.
Also, is UWE aware that the hatchet has a 360 degree attack radius some times?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've always been against that, I really dislikes that ability where you can use melee attacks with rifle. Why only rifle? Why not with the shotgun to? It makes no sence and it breaks the gameplay. My wish is for them to remove the rifle melee attack and stick with ns1 :)
But I do think that UWE is going in the right direction, like the granade launcher being to overpowered, having both rifle + granade launcher. Uwe are looking into it, Looking forward to see a new granade launcher weapon, like in ns1 :)
<!--quoteo(post=1937557:date=May 20 2012, 05:01 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ May 20 2012, 05:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is actually not entirely true as a2 is now 4bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand this. Once it takes 4 bites to kill a marine then the skulk pretty much becomes useless. I'd rather have 3 bite without leap than 4 bite with leap.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
Unless he uses enzymes from drifters, spores from lerks, stomps from onos, heals from gorge etc and other useful upgrades? There are ways to help scale it, but a vanilla skulk should not be able to 3 bite a marine who has had his armor upgraded twice?
Clicking mouse intentionally in a timed fashion instead of holding it will yield better results, in case anyone here didn't know. I am not that good but can still pull off 4 bites on a A2 marine without any of the above mentioned support often enough.
Edit: all IMO, ofc And i agree with dominator below... it should just knock you back, only.
If theyre going to leave it in they should at least make it work the way its supposed to. The skulk should be knocked away in the direction you are attacking not straight up to the ceiling. Also the fact that it knocks away, stuns AND does damage is annoying, pick one damnit or maybe two.
Comments
"Much Higher"? You can hear the Skulk coming a mile away - There is no risk to pulling out your axe for a Harvester, the only thing you need to decide is do I try to kill the Skulk or do I keep on attacking the Harvester and hope I kill it.
There's risk for a Skulk to attack to an RT, can't see how the same can be said for a marine.
Personally I only use it to imagine myself in the scene from Shaun of the Dead where they're hitting the zombie with pool sticks.
I think the riflebutt shouldn't be in the game, and axes shouldn't kill harvesters faster than bite. Sometimes less is more - we don't even need to have a lot of these ideas in the game, and they bring their own problems with them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thank you, i see your point. i would argue, that the riflebutt while not neccesary, still adds to the game without causing problems. it is true, that it can sometimes save your sorry ass as a marine, but at least in my experiance it is pretty rare and rare things are good. "wow that was close" or "damn that bitc* got me" or "haha i got him, im alive" are all memorable situations and memorys because they are rare.
about the extractor/harvester, i actually dont care which one takes longer to kill, as long as it plays balanced.
Agreed, the Stun is absolutely infuriating as a Skulk. It simply makes no sense for a team game, you have an emergency attack/reload time trade-off which is removed if you're fighting more than one marine.
The only reason this isn't a problem in public games is because barely anyone uses it and people aren't great at using it.
i think it is some of this. a little melee is a pretty common FPS ability. i dont have a problem with it if: it is useful and used as a defense alternative to jump / straff, not overpowered, takes skill, and most important isnt overly annoying to the alien player.
I think the riflebutt shouldn't be in the game, and axes shouldn't kill harvesters faster than bite. Sometimes less is more - we don't even need to have a lot of these ideas in the game, and they bring their own problems with them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine RTs have to have higher health because aliens have super mobile classes. Marines move much slower than aliens hence their RTs need to be beefier to make up for it. The recent buff to harvester health fixed the ridiculous nature of the super low HP harvester, though. The quicker maturation times also make it have higher health so that also helped. If marines had such low health RTs skulks could so quickly run in and take down so many RTs before marines even had a chance to respond to them.
standing in computerlab, facing sub access, guarding that long hallway, because the alien hive is in sub.
around the corner at the far end comes a fast skulk, he bounces of the right wall, i miss him.
he bounces of the left wall, i miss him.
im out of ammo and in my panic i do a riflebutt while he is still 3 meters away, i miss him....comicly far.
he jumps me in the face and kills me with one bite because i was low on health.
now without riflebutt that would have been the equivalent of a cool movie scene. but with riflebutt it got my first realy imprinted memory because i missed so far with the riflebutt and fell over to the first bite i loughed my ass off and had to stop playing for like 2 minutes.
i dont know if anyone else sees the humor in this, but i still chuckle when i think about it.
Not sure why you're attacking the axe mechanic to get rid of the rifle butt stun. Having to make a conscious choice between switching to a melee weapon to kill an alien structure or just gun it down with the rifle is a good gameplay mechanic that rewards experience. It worked perfectly in NS1 and there haven't been any changes from that formula to NS2 that imply that it isn't still a good gameplay mechanic.
The speed of which aliens/marines kill harvesters is a purely numbers-related balancing question and not really worth discussing outside of those parameters.
At least we can agree that rifle butt stun always has and always will be a bad idea.
this is actually not entirely true as a2 is now 4bite. straight up axe vs cara skulk, axe will win on 4bite. 3bite axe wins against noncara skulk as well. Simplification ofcourse, but the point is axe has relative dps advantage. Not that i personally think it should be different, but just interesting facts. I believe it was the same with ns1 knife vs skulk?
Also, is UWE aware that the hatchet has a 360 degree attack radius some times?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've always been against that, I really dislikes that ability where you can use melee attacks with rifle. Why only rifle? Why not with the shotgun to? It makes no sence and it breaks the gameplay. My wish is for them to remove the rifle melee attack and stick with ns1 :)
But I do think that UWE is going in the right direction, like the granade launcher being to overpowered, having both rifle + granade launcher. Uwe are looking into it, Looking forward to see a new granade launcher weapon, like in ns1 :)
I don't understand this. Once it takes 4 bites to kill a marine then the skulk pretty much becomes useless. I'd rather have 3 bite without leap than 4 bite with leap.
Clicking mouse intentionally in a timed fashion instead of holding it will yield better results, in case anyone here didn't know. I am not that good but can still pull off 4 bites on a A2 marine without any of the above mentioned support often enough.
Edit: all IMO, ofc
And i agree with dominator below... it should just knock you back, only.