re-imagining the res-for-kills model
weezl
Join Date: 2008-07-04 Member: 64557Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2008-07-04 Member: 64557Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">to introduce it into ns2</div>I actually have three somewhat related topics in this thread:
#1 the death effects
I don't like them since they are the same effect that is in all console games. Because the consoles are old/weak pieces of cr*p and need to save resources (less models/polygons on screen). Ever since doom3 (i think) they use the same algorithm, but tweak the visuals a bit to "fit" the setting. In doom3 they "burned up" since they are hellish creatures.
#2 the resource source being ONLY extractors
It grows exactly linearly with how many extractors you have, nothing more, nothing less.
Lately I've been commanding alot and to me, this makes the current resource model flat, predictable, boring, and slow!
In ns1 res-for-kills (rfk) boosted res income, made it more dynamic, rewarded players on the alien side (since they had individual economies) - all-in-all it made killing mean more than it does now imo.
Suggestion:
Infestation absorbs bodies as aliens res income; likewise, the nano-grid absorbs bodies as marine res income!
This would bring back the dynamic rfk, put MUCH more emphasis on area control and what territory you fight on (excursions into enemy territory would be more cautious = slowing the game a little), and REALLY justify the current death-effect.
This is actually a REALLY old idea of mine way back before the tech release (iirc) when the DI topic was fresh and recent:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104619&view=findpost&p=1684962" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1684962</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1684962:date=Jul 31 2008, 09:38 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Jul 31 2008, 09:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684962"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...
how about steering di onto objects/areas where it can acquire "food" so its growth will be boosted, like eating marines/buildings/certain props. maybe manually connecting the di with resnodes could boost it? leech res off of marine rt? help gather res for alien rt?
<b>if there will be bodies in ns2, which im all for, the di could feed on them (consume them). maybe gain some res out of it?</b> maybe it can use bullets shot into it somehow?
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#3 almost no reward for taking tech-points
Another of my previous suggestions (mostly for the marine side) is I'd like to see some more incentive to capture tech-points.
Right now they give for marine: more nano-shield, backup incase of unlucky CC rush, minimal extra protection vs hivedrop.
All of which are bottom priority when spending the EXTREMELY PRECIOUS tres.
For aliens it's much different, there's hive2 abilities, more upg slots, (more armor absorb?), (second tech tree, although cara+regen are 100 times more needed than camo+silence).
Suggestion: let captured tech-points contribute to res income, say, half of an RT.
This would create even more incentive (together with #2) to capture and control areas!
(maybe a very bold variant of this would be to only make this for CC (marines) and not for aliens)
As a sidenote I'd like to mention these old thoughts of mine, while I'm talking:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104487&view=findpost&p=1683699" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1683699</a>
A thread with many good ideas focused on effects of dmg taken (low health).
#1 the death effects
I don't like them since they are the same effect that is in all console games. Because the consoles are old/weak pieces of cr*p and need to save resources (less models/polygons on screen). Ever since doom3 (i think) they use the same algorithm, but tweak the visuals a bit to "fit" the setting. In doom3 they "burned up" since they are hellish creatures.
#2 the resource source being ONLY extractors
It grows exactly linearly with how many extractors you have, nothing more, nothing less.
Lately I've been commanding alot and to me, this makes the current resource model flat, predictable, boring, and slow!
In ns1 res-for-kills (rfk) boosted res income, made it more dynamic, rewarded players on the alien side (since they had individual economies) - all-in-all it made killing mean more than it does now imo.
Suggestion:
Infestation absorbs bodies as aliens res income; likewise, the nano-grid absorbs bodies as marine res income!
This would bring back the dynamic rfk, put MUCH more emphasis on area control and what territory you fight on (excursions into enemy territory would be more cautious = slowing the game a little), and REALLY justify the current death-effect.
This is actually a REALLY old idea of mine way back before the tech release (iirc) when the DI topic was fresh and recent:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104619&view=findpost&p=1684962" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1684962</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1684962:date=Jul 31 2008, 09:38 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Jul 31 2008, 09:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684962"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...
how about steering di onto objects/areas where it can acquire "food" so its growth will be boosted, like eating marines/buildings/certain props. maybe manually connecting the di with resnodes could boost it? leech res off of marine rt? help gather res for alien rt?
<b>if there will be bodies in ns2, which im all for, the di could feed on them (consume them). maybe gain some res out of it?</b> maybe it can use bullets shot into it somehow?
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
#3 almost no reward for taking tech-points
Another of my previous suggestions (mostly for the marine side) is I'd like to see some more incentive to capture tech-points.
Right now they give for marine: more nano-shield, backup incase of unlucky CC rush, minimal extra protection vs hivedrop.
All of which are bottom priority when spending the EXTREMELY PRECIOUS tres.
For aliens it's much different, there's hive2 abilities, more upg slots, (more armor absorb?), (second tech tree, although cara+regen are 100 times more needed than camo+silence).
Suggestion: let captured tech-points contribute to res income, say, half of an RT.
This would create even more incentive (together with #2) to capture and control areas!
(maybe a very bold variant of this would be to only make this for CC (marines) and not for aliens)
As a sidenote I'd like to mention these old thoughts of mine, while I'm talking:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104487&view=findpost&p=1683699" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1683699</a>
A thread with many good ideas focused on effects of dmg taken (low health).
Comments
Your idea is good because it takes out the question of "who got the kill" - there can be no argument about whether someone is 'ramboing' or 'killstealing' or whatever else. Something dies in a room that has infestation/nanogrid power, and it gets absorbed as tres (or pres spread evenly across the team), and the game goes on. Make it sufficiently small and you have yourself a good 'over time' mechanic.
For instance, you could make it so that every kill near power/infestation results in +0.25 pres for each member of the team. Something like that.
Will the death effects differ depending on where the alien/marine died? An alien dying on infestation might trigger the decompose animation, while dying on open ground w/ power node in room = dematerialize animation? I guess the "+X Res" notification should show along with the "+Y points" one, to indication RFK.
Will the death effects differ depending on where the alien/marine died? An alien dying on infestation might trigger the decompose animation, while dying on open ground w/ power node in room = dematerialize animation? I guess the "+X Res" notification should show along with the "+Y points" one, to indication RFK.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you wouldn't even need another notification or number. Just change the color of the text. I.e. normal yellow for neutral ground, red on infestation, blue in powered rooms.
I suppose, or perhaps the +X Res that appears near the resource counter for players could use this color change. It might be a bit subtle, though.
Good idea, +1
If the latter then i'm concerned this would make cyst spam even more desirable than it already is, as it would be completely worth it for a dedicated alien comm to spam his cysts in marine territory to effectively lock the marines out of a significant source of income and receive all the payback If the game were to be re balanced to accommodate this mechanic, and make it significant enough to matter in the economy, then we'd be seeing what in my opinion is very exploitative tactics coming out of this, such as flash cyst spam, and ninja power node repairs, to snatch the source of income from player deaths. If you were to re-balance this mechanic to make these strategies not viable, then the impact that it would have on the game at all would be negligible, as making it prevalent enough that teams would pursue area control over the current strategies, you'd also be making the system a venue to be manipulated by both teams trying to reap its benefit, and the ending result would very well not favor the team that truly was executing superior attacking/defending strategies, but the team that knew how to manipulate the system in their favor.
I'm just saying this to bring out some of the initial problems I see in a system like this. Maybe you guys will come up with dozens of potential countermeasures, but rolling it all into a simple and intuitive mechanic that encourages valid strategies is what's vital.
Just like there are lights travelling from the hive and outwards through the cyst-network, so should the res travel, slowly, cyst-to-cyst-to-hive!
@Heroman117 good question and concern.
<!--quoteo(post=1925826:date=Apr 16 2012, 06:32 AM:name=Heroman117)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heroman117 @ Apr 16 2012, 06:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just for clarification, how exactly would this work in rooms that are powered and have infestation in them? If a marine dies in a powered room, but standing on infestation does the res go towards the marines or instead go to the aliens?
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I already had my version on that, just missed to write it down:
Since infestation is the non-default that has to be manually spread, it would only be fair if it had priority;
enemy* bodies disintegrating on DI go to alien res
enemy* bodies disintegrating on DI-free "powered nano-grid" go to marine res
no-mans-land bodies can be discussed...
*I think it shouldn't include allies' bodies since then, in low risk situations, players could sacrifice their lives to boost comm - very undesirable behavior!
As for neutral areas, where the N-G isn't "under marine control", they are just "swooped away" by "the facility"
(this raises the question of, what about cave-areas that are just rock??? - maybe gameplay could be expanded by N-G not covering some areas = not buildable for marines, only aliens...)
An alternative I personally would like is bodies staying on neutral ground to be a prize to collect :P
(oh the ethics...)
<!--quoteo(post=1925826:date=Apr 16 2012, 06:32 AM:name=Heroman117)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heroman117 @ Apr 16 2012, 06:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...
If the latter then i'm concerned this would make cyst spam even more desirable than it already is, as it would be completely worth it for a dedicated alien comm to spam his cysts in marine territory to effectively lock the marines out of a significant source of income and receive all the payback If the game were to be re balanced to accommodate this mechanic, and make it significant enough to matter in the economy, then we'd be seeing what in my opinion is very exploitative tactics coming out of this, such as flash cyst spam, and ninja power node repairs, to snatch the source of income from player deaths. If you were to re-balance this mechanic to make these strategies not viable, then the impact that it would have on the game at all would be negligible, as making it prevalent enough that teams would pursue area control over the current strategies, you'd also be making the system a venue to be manipulated by both teams trying to reap its benefit, and the ending result would very well not favor the team that truly was executing superior attacking/defending strategies, but the team that knew how to manipulate the system in their favor.
I'm just saying this to bring out some of the initial problems I see in a system like this. Maybe you guys will come up with dozens of potential countermeasures, but rolling it all into a simple and intuitive mechanic that encourages valid strategies is what's vital.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really disagree cyst spam would be a problem. It would probably be a problem back when cysts cost hive energy instead of 2pres from com.
1. They are not spammable at all to begin with. Maybe slightly if gorges help spread cysts, but then those players will have less pres! When com has spread cysts to the first 2-3 rt:s, he's out and then pres slowly trickles in, plus cysts are killed off and need to be replaced.
2. They are easily killed off.
3a. Even if com saved up and made an expensive "cyst-mad-dash" into marine territory they wouldn't stay there for very long => the extra income would be attainable during a very limited time => not a big difference.
3b. If it's an end game scenario where marines have turtled up in one room, they either turtled up good with arcs/sentries or it will help ending the game a little quicker.
Have in mind that there has to be actual kills, not just presence of DI, and this extra res won't make an IMMEDIATE difference - more long-term.
They won't, if you're pushing them back by killing them. If they're just running away, you take more of the map for "your team's RFK mechanic"
If you try to push them back and they kill you very efficiently on their ground, they stand to gain more res than you from the fight overall. In my opinion, that's how RFK should work.
As for the "what about a powered and infested room?" question - just make it not contribute to RFK. Done.
edit: It might also stop this ridiculous 4-fades-in-one-second malarkey that's going on
How about players don't get pres from active Harvesters/Extractors when they're dead? So if you're alive, you're naturally getting a bit more res.
How about players don't get pres from active Harvesters/Extractors when they're dead? So if you're alive, you're naturally getting a bit more res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you think about the OP's idea, though? Any chance in trying it with a build?
Your idea sounds interesting too, of course. Better than what we have now, I think. Try at least one of them in a public build and see what happens!
How about players don't get pres from active Harvesters/Extractors when they're dead? So if you're alive, you're naturally getting a bit more res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wouldn't that just encourage people to avoid combat? At least with RFK, it's a risk-vs-reward tradeoff; with your proposal the winner's reward is... slowing down the other guy a bit.
The people avoiding combat aren't slowing anybody down but themselves (and their team at large, since they're not out there helping teammates fight)
Not necessarily, as infestation is not so fast to be on the frontlines always, or where the marines inhabit.
So you would see those aliens attacking the base / nearby base area where infestation hasnt reach yet, dying, and giving back to marines. Not to mention cysts dont always make it into marine base.
Which brings me to my next point: this system would rely solely on one person per team (the comm) to do the correct thing and cyst everywhere /ahead.
Instead of a consistent feature like Charlie has mentioned <b>that is dependent on the individual player's decision and skills.</b>
I definitely +1 for Charlie's idea instead. Accomplishes the same thing but with no downsides as long as spawning times for both teams remain equal.
How about players don't get pres from active Harvesters/Extractors when they're dead? So if you're alive, you're naturally getting a bit more res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm claiming that idea :D <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118481&view=findpost&p=1936307" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1936307</a>
So you would see those aliens attacking the base / nearby base area where infestation hasnt reach yet, dying, and giving back to marines. Not to mention cysts dont always make it into marine base.
Which brings me to my next point: this system would rely solely on one person per team (the comm) to do the correct thing and cyst everywhere /ahead.
Instead of a consistent feature like Charlie has mentioned <b>that is dependent on the individual player's decision and skills.</b>
I definitely +1 for Charlie's idea instead. Accomplishes the same thing but with no downsides as long as spawning times for both teams remain equal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're saying my RFK wouldn't be perfectly equal, favoring marines more? Wasn't this game asymmetric to begin with?
Kham can't "cyst everywhere" since he (ideally) cannot cystspam.
<!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro-->edit: sry about this removed line, ironhorse! misunderstood u :) what I should have written is:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
What do you mean is NOT "dependent on the individual player's decision and skills"?
@Charlie, That is a very easily implemented idea that's way WAY better than now.
But I still have to be biased and say my idea is the best, imo. Although requires much more work implementing...
Whereas Charlie's is up to how well / playstyle of the individual player, while also giving more impact to higher lifeforms that dont die as easily as a skulk.
This will slow down the early game too, slightly, which is a nice side effect.
One benefit I can see from this system and that is that the hypothetical resource ceiling is capped at how many extractors/harvesters you hold - a player cannot break a game by going fade in the first minute with 20kills or something silly. I don't really see this benefit as one that outweighs the simplicity of the rfk model, however, as it simply never happened in NS1 and a scaled down version for NS2 would ensure that it is even more fanciful.
Another might be that skulks who stay alive while eating extractors behind the scenes glean some reward from staying alive. I actually like the sound of this though I wonder whether it would be significantly advantageous or not.
Basically, I don't mind Charlie's solution. I just think the positive manifestation of it is the rfk model; people aren't 'punished' for dying but people <i>are</i> rewarded for killing. It's easy to learn and understand and is obvious when it happens. It probably does more to address tech explosions, goodplay rewards and 'overtime' resources better too.