<!--quoteo(post=1922468:date=Apr 6 2012, 08:31 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Apr 6 2012, 08:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about speeding up marines off infestation instead of slowing them down ON infestation? Then it would be a positive feature rather than a negative, right???
Just pointing out that giving aliens a bonus to speed on infestation is exactly the same thing as having them slow down off infestation. Just depends on what you choose to place the normal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason it's good to make it 'on infestation' is that aliens create infestation by spending resources and protecting cysts. Marines destroy infestation by attacking cysts effectively, and so on. It's like creep in Starcraft - it creates opportunities for both sides, but it's clear that it's more geared toward giving aliens opportunities than taking opportunities away from marines.
In other terms,<i> the norm</i> is 'environment not yet modified by players for their gain'
If marine speed was boosted skulks wouldn't be able to catch them without using leap, or chasing them for ages until the marine's sprint stamina was drained.
If we need to have territorial advantages, I'd much rather have them as very specific design rather than a "10% overall debuff".
If we take a look at SC2 creep for example, it doesn't really make a difference when you're a-moving zealots into zerglings. Meanwhile the creep allows zergs to create new threats: Queens and spine crawlers suddenly start influencing fights. The speed boost the creep provides is designed so that units can be microed in different ways than off-creep rather than being just some mediocre percentual buff/debuff. Basically the game is saying "You want to push to creep? Then you have to be prepared to deal with this kind of extra threats". Meanwhile it doesn't really affect the outcome of fights that much unless the zerg utilizes the extra possibilities it has on creep.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
I see the OP's point and I'm just going to be a smart ass a put a little grain of salt, something to think about.
The basic actions of shooting and biting and whatever are negative also, they impair the other person's health bar. Where is the limit between negative and too negative? The whole point of games like these is to negate your opponent.
<!--quoteo(post=1922583:date=Apr 6 2012, 12:23 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Apr 6 2012, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The basic actions of shooting and biting and whatever are negative also, they impair the other person's health bar. Where is the limit between negative and too negative? The whole point of games like these is to negate your opponent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A health bar isn't a function of Marines. Seeing, hearing, moving, and shooting are.
The limit is where it becomes a frustration, rather than a challenge.
<!--quoteo(post=1922583:date=Apr 6 2012, 09:23 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Apr 6 2012, 09:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see the OP's point and I'm just going to be a smart ass a put a little grain of salt, something to think about.
The basic actions of shooting and biting and whatever are negative also, they impair the other person's health bar. Where is the limit between negative and too negative? The whole point of games like these is to negate your opponent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if you are serious, but if so you completely missed the OP's point. Losing health is part of any FPS. By itself it doesn't take away control from the player, it doesn't obscure vision or hearing. <i>That</i> is what is wrong with many abilities and effects in NS2.
The difference is that death is a discontinuity, something sharp that send you in a different phase of the game, the spec/respawn phase. You could probably see the difference in the muscle and the general physical attitude of the players, a focused and tense player will probably relax a bit and lay back or drink when he dies. It's pretty much different that having your view blocked, or your control removed, while your character stays in the game. I expect more mouse shaking and keyboard smashing then: "common move, it's just a gorge spit !!"
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
Well with my 10fps seeing another player is a negative impact already and it feels as if I am one shot killed the moment I see the opponent in the same room as I. So honestly I haven't really played the game to notice what you all are talking about :p
Remove gorge spit slow down and buff belly slide sounds like a great idea. Sad day though if you cant abuse spit on those poor helpless rines desperately trying to get away. Also remove gore knockdown, the lolnos has stomp and he does not need 2 knockdown abilities. This could probably help with the early lolnos problem and it removes another "negative ability".
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1922640:date=Apr 6 2012, 10:39 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Apr 6 2012, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well with my 10fps seeing another player is a negative impact already and it feels as if I am one shot killed the moment I see the opponent in the same room as I. So honestly I haven't really played the game to notice what you all are talking about :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well at least you have an edge, you can see when an enemy is coming around the corner due to FPS drop. You're such a hacker :P
Reminds me of my AMD K6 450Mhz and something-something shared memory "GPU" laptop back in the day had the same issue with HL and mods...
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1922647:date=Apr 6 2012, 05:57 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Apr 6 2012, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922647"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well at least you have an edge, you can see when an enemy is coming around the corner due to FPS drop. You're such a hacker :P
Reminds me of my AMD K6 450Mhz and something-something shared memory "GPU" laptop back in the day had the same issue with HL and mods...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL! Well its not hard to see them. I get a picture of them coming in the room. A picture of them in my face. And then the "You are dead screen" :p I can tell the skill of the player by how close the in my face picture is. When Koruyo kills me I feel merged in his fade :p
That's why I'm always happy to build base, at least I feel I'm doing something instead of getting one-shotted :p Sometimes I get a kill it must be sooooo humiliating for them to see they are my only kill :p
Though I still have fun and don't feel frustrated. I don't really get what people get frustrated about. Does it come from the game, does it come from them or is it because I am in their team? HAhaha!
I should get a special ingame status and not count in the player count:p Then again, give thanks to what is as maybe if I would of had the fps, I might of not become a mapper ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1922173:date=Apr 6 2012, 01:13 AM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Apr 6 2012, 01:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922173"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would be fine with lerk spores if you could see atleast 3-5 meters in it instead of the current zero visibility. Also a counter like flamethrower would make it much more fun.
Also the low hp sound and visual effects as a marine are frustrating. As if having 10 health does not put you disadvantaged enough.
It's also super annoying as a commander if you decide to get out off cc to kill a lonely skulk and it manages to bite you two times. Then you login back to the CC only to notice that you can't hear properly and the whole comm UI is blurred and wavy. Then you logout, go to the armory and log back in and found out half of your team is wondering in a place where they should not be and the other half lies dead because you couldn't give medpack or ammo while trying to recover your senses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> On the comm chair thing. When the commchair is closing it shold give massive health restore. This would ALSO encourage secondayry base types and shared COMMAND CONTROL.
I disagree on lerk nerf, though! Although I can\t understand why a prone abilty for marine isn\t in!? I want to see improvements to the marine abity. I mean one of the DEVS was once saying how inspired he was by combat mode custom UG's in NS. tl:dr (he\s crazy[?]) Cybernetics Upgrades for Pres.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1922721:date=Apr 6 2012, 10:58 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 6 2012, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i must know.. what ARE your specs??..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe I don't have something set right but still:
Asus G73jh
i7 Q720 2.66 GHz - 1.6 GHz< I guess this is why from the cpu bottleneck, if you have any advice i take. DDR3 1066/1333 MHz 6g ATI Mobility™ Radeon® HD 5870, 1G GDDR5 VRAM
/
By looking around I noticed the cpu was blocked at 60%, let me launch NS2 and see how that changes things
Yeah, chances are that CPU is not turboing up to 2.66ghz correctly. I remember lots of problems with that from when I worked in a store selling mobile i5s/i7s. On top of that, 2.66 isn't actually that high for NS2, and it likely doesn't use the hyperthreaded 'cores' the way you'd assume.
Most of these aren't debilitating, or the player has a choice in whether or not to subject himself to it, which drastically changes how it's perceived. Infestation slows you down but it's your choice to walk on it. That's way different than the gorge's spit which is out of your control (thus much more aggravating on the receiving end), but it's a gorge - it's pretty much self defense only. The Onos gets a pass from me as well because they're also a support unit, and super expensive, so there's your used-in-moderation. Past that (and the rifle butt which again is super rare) there is basically no prohibition of movement in NS2. I don't see how you can possibly put stars next to stuff like blink, that's the complete opposite, it's giving freedom of movement. Is it annoying to deal with? Sure... but it's not debilitating to the fade's enemies. If you're listing stuff that simply does damage as "focus on negative abilities" then you can pretty much put the entire game into that category heh.
I mean I agree with some of the points I just don't think they can be lumped together like this. You've basically listed everything "interesting" about the game so your idea of a "fix" sounds like, to me, a fullbright version with no power nodes, no infestation, no unique abilities, just marines vs. skulks I guess? I don't get it.
<!--quoteo(post=1922821:date=Apr 7 2012, 04:05 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 7 2012, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922821"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even things like gorge spit aren't beyond your control - it's a projectile that isn't fired from up close if the gorge knows what's good for him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it way too often boils down to the situation where the only realistic way to avoid getting hit is sticking back and not even trying to push forward. In some sense that's a viable tactic of course, but being unable to push makes really bad things to melee vs ranged gameplay in general. The melee vs ranged gameplay lives and dies through dynamic positioning, which any slowdown or holding back denies partitially.
It's reasonable to talk about gorge spitting, infestation or spores etc. as avoidable but what's not reasonable is to argue that because they're avoidable, they're aren't a problem or that prohibition is 'optional' and infrequent. At the end of the day, good lerks will block your vision, good gorges will hit you with spit, khams will spread infestation widely. It doubly unreasonable to talk about how easy it is to avoid something when easily avoiding something usually means not fulfilling important objectives.
As for what i've starred, twincannon: some are to do with impairment of movement and some are to do with impairment of senses. Blink fell under sensual impairment because it goes invisible and your sight sense is denied. I agree that it's a movement function primarily (one that is inferior to the NS1 blink so far, except that you can go backwards) but it's secondary functions are invisibility and invulnerability. I don't know where you get the idea that i'm starring anything that does dps either. I don't regard damage as physically or sensually debilitating so I hope that clears up any confusion.
Thinking about cloak, it seems things have been done backward; if you can hear a cloaked alien it's ok, it puts the focus on audition instead of vision and shooting a cloaked skulk just from sound is fun. Same thing with silence, you can still see them. It's variation on senses.
Cloak used to work only when walking very slowly, it's the exact contrary that needs to be done, be cloaked when you are the most noisy, that is when you run. If you stand still, uncloak.
<!--quoteo(post=1922942:date=Apr 7 2012, 08:40 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Apr 7 2012, 08:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thinking about cloak, it seems things have been done backward; if you can hear a cloaked alien it's ok, it puts the focus on audition instead of vision and shooting a cloaked skulk just from sound is fun. Same thing with silence, you can still see them. It's variation on senses.
Cloak used to work only when walking very slowly, it's the exact contrary that needs to be done, be cloaked when you are the most noisy, that is when you run. If you stand still, uncloak.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is actually a really cool suggestion. I don't think I'd appreciate fighting a crazy good walljumping skulk or pancaking lerk, though!
<!--quoteo(post=1922831:date=Apr 7 2012, 05:14 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Apr 7 2012, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it way too often boils down to the situation where the only realistic way to avoid getting hit is sticking back and not even trying to push forward. In some sense that's a viable tactic of course, but being unable to push makes really bad things to melee vs ranged gameplay in general. The melee vs ranged gameplay lives and dies through dynamic positioning, which any slowdown or holding back denies partitially.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not charging in ahead of everyone else is actually good gameplay for a marine. Stay back, wait for the enemy to come to you, if they don't, move up as a group.
If the gorge has no melee aliens with it, it isn't a threat and you can rush it. if it does have melee classes, you don't want to run towards them.
<!--quoteo(post=1922955:date=Apr 7 2012, 09:23 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Apr 7 2012, 09:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not charging in ahead of everyone else is actually good gameplay for a marine. Stay back, wait for the enemy to come to you, if they don't, move up as a group.
If the gorge has no melee aliens with it, it isn't a threat and you can rush it. if it does have melee classes, you don't want to run towards them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actual gameplay is more along the lines of an alien team forcing the marine team to have to push into an ambush when they don't want to.
Please, we're derailing the thread into pointless minutiae.
Apologies for this post and my last, Tweadle
edit: Since this silly post is here!
<!--quoteo(post=1922526:date=Apr 6 2012, 05:01 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 6 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->totally off topic, but i just noticed MuYeah's changed avatar is still a bird and i couldnt help myself:
The entire thread is about picking apart pointless minutiae though.
It hinges on the idea that marines are somehow helpless and entirely unable to do anything about the constant impeding of their abilities, forced to sit and be repeatedly stunned, blinded, slowed, and otherwise abused like helpless children, unable to fight back or do anything.
It reads like an RPSCC advert. Saying 'actually marines can do quite a lot of stuff about it' isn't derailing, it's a counterargument.
It hinges on the idea that marines are somehow helpless and entirely unable to do anything about the constant impeding of their abilities, forced to sit and be repeatedly stunned, blinded, slowed, and otherwise abused like helpless children, unable to fight back or do anything.
It reads like an RPSCC advert. Saying 'actually marines can do quite a lot of stuff about it' isn't derailing, it's a counterargument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it bears repeating that the correct usage of an impeding skill is putting it to use in a situation where you gain an advantage even if it is avoided.
It's fine and good to say the player can avoid the impediments because yes, a large proportion of the time the skills are used willy nilly in the wrong places at the wrong times and the opening created by such skills is not capitalised on. It is the same as a Starcraft player sending in a couple DTs and not following up with the counter to the opponents detection tech path.
In this context, what you're arguing is irrelevent because players <i>will definitely</i> have impediments used on them by a competent team because the correct way to construct a strategy is to force the opposing team to have to weather the impediment skills or lose out even bigger.
What does matter is the amount of impeding, "negative" skills that the player is put through in order to achieve their objectives and how irritating it can be to be affected by them.
More or less irritating than being killed outright and having to respawn?
The more abilities you have that do things other than kill people unavoidably, the more ways you can have combat which doesn't involve people dying as soon as you see them.
Consider it this way, what's different between fighting a gorge with spit, and fighting against a rocket launcher in quake?
With the rocket launcher their projectiles can easily miss compared to say, the lightning gun, and they make a really obvious noise every time you fire, telegraphing your attack. On the downside their hits can do a lot of damage and you into the lava even if you dodge most of the damage. Pros and cons.
Fighting the gorge, if you get hit, you take penalties, on the plus side, the gorge doesn't put out much damage. Again, pros and cons.
Same with lerks, if they gas the room, you have to move or choke, also you can't see as well, on the other hand it's a lerk that just used a lot of energy, and is showing exactly where it just went, it's weakened and doesn't have a lot of health.
All weapons and abilities have pros and cons in any good game, for both sides.
Comments
Just pointing out that giving aliens a bonus to speed on infestation is exactly the same thing as having them slow down off infestation. Just depends on what you choose to place the normal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason it's good to make it 'on infestation' is that aliens create infestation by spending resources and protecting cysts. Marines destroy infestation by attacking cysts effectively, and so on. It's like creep in Starcraft - it creates opportunities for both sides, but it's clear that it's more geared toward giving aliens opportunities than taking opportunities away from marines.
In other terms,<i> the norm</i> is 'environment not yet modified by players for their gain'
If we take a look at SC2 creep for example, it doesn't really make a difference when you're a-moving zealots into zerglings. Meanwhile the creep allows zergs to create new threats: Queens and spine crawlers suddenly start influencing fights. The speed boost the creep provides is designed so that units can be microed in different ways than off-creep rather than being just some mediocre percentual buff/debuff. Basically the game is saying "You want to push to creep? Then you have to be prepared to deal with this kind of extra threats". Meanwhile it doesn't really affect the outcome of fights that much unless the zerg utilizes the extra possibilities it has on creep.
The basic actions of shooting and biting and whatever are negative also, they impair the other person's health bar. Where is the limit between negative and too negative? The whole point of games like these is to negate your opponent.
A health bar isn't a function of Marines. Seeing, hearing, moving, and shooting are.
The limit is where it becomes a frustration, rather than a challenge.
The basic actions of shooting and biting and whatever are negative also, they impair the other person's health bar. Where is the limit between negative and too negative? The whole point of games like these is to negate your opponent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if you are serious, but if so you completely missed the OP's point.
Losing health is part of any FPS. By itself it doesn't take away control from the player, it doesn't obscure vision or hearing.
<i>That</i> is what is wrong with many abilities and effects in NS2.
It's pretty much different that having your view blocked, or your control removed, while your character stays in the game. I expect more mouse shaking and keyboard smashing then: "common move, it's just a gorge spit !!"
*raises hand* guilty. Hate that pudgy glowing ball of irritation spitting at me as if he was an offensive unit :P Go heal something FATTY!
Well at least you have an edge, you can see when an enemy is coming around the corner due to FPS drop. You're such a hacker :P
Reminds me of my AMD K6 450Mhz and something-something shared memory "GPU" laptop back in the day had the same issue with HL and mods...
Reminds me of my AMD K6 450Mhz and something-something shared memory "GPU" laptop back in the day had the same issue with HL and mods...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL! Well its not hard to see them. I get a picture of them coming in the room. A picture of them in my face. And then the "You are dead screen" :p I can tell the skill of the player by how close the in my face picture is. When Koruyo kills me I feel merged in his fade :p
That's why I'm always happy to build base, at least I feel I'm doing something instead of getting one-shotted :p Sometimes I get a kill it must be sooooo humiliating for them to see they are my only kill :p
Though I still have fun and don't feel frustrated. I don't really get what people get frustrated about. Does it come from the game, does it come from them or is it because I am in their team? HAhaha!
I should get a special ingame status and not count in the player count:p Then again, give thanks to what is as maybe if I would of had the fps, I might of not become a mapper ;)
Also the low hp sound and visual effects as a marine are frustrating. As if having 10 health does not put you disadvantaged enough.
It's also super annoying as a commander if you decide to get out off cc to kill a lonely skulk and it manages to bite you two times. Then you login back to the CC only to notice that you can't hear properly and the whole comm UI is blurred and wavy. Then you logout, go to the armory and log back in and found out half of your team is wondering in a place where they should not be and the other half lies dead because you couldn't give medpack or ammo while trying to recover your senses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> On the comm chair thing. When the commchair is closing it shold give massive health restore. This would ALSO encourage secondayry base types and shared COMMAND CONTROL.
I disagree on lerk nerf, though!
Although I can\t understand why a prone abilty for marine isn\t in!?
I want to see improvements to the marine abity. I mean one of the DEVS was once saying how inspired he was by combat mode custom UG's in NS.
tl:dr (he\s crazy[?])
Cybernetics Upgrades for Pres.
you guys are killing me.
you are suggesting (demanding sometimes) that they scrap all these things and start from scratch.
the OP i will grant made a good argument for ...it might be a bit much
which is something to ponder for minor adjustments tweaks etc
but take it easy guys and focus on your real concerns.
they are trying to wrap this up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This game is not gonna be delayed because of gameplay design and even after release I'm sure they're not done adding new things.
Maybe I don't have something set right but still:
Asus G73jh
i7 Q720 2.66 GHz - 1.6 GHz< I guess this is why from the cpu bottleneck, if you have any advice i take.
DDR3 1066/1333 MHz 6g
ATI Mobility™ Radeon® HD 5870, 1G GDDR5 VRAM
/
By looking around I noticed the cpu was blocked at 60%, let me launch NS2 and see how that changes things
I mean I agree with some of the points I just don't think they can be lumped together like this. You've basically listed everything "interesting" about the game so your idea of a "fix" sounds like, to me, a fullbright version with no power nodes, no infestation, no unique abilities, just marines vs. skulks I guess? I don't get it.
Some other things (like spores or onos stomps) aren't practically avoidable, though.
I think it way too often boils down to the situation where the only realistic way to avoid getting hit is sticking back and not even trying to push forward. In some sense that's a viable tactic of course, but being unable to push makes really bad things to melee vs ranged gameplay in general. The melee vs ranged gameplay lives and dies through dynamic positioning, which any slowdown or holding back denies partitially.
As for what i've starred, twincannon: some are to do with impairment of movement and some are to do with impairment of senses. Blink fell under sensual impairment because it goes invisible and your sight sense is denied. I agree that it's a movement function primarily (one that is inferior to the NS1 blink so far, except that you can go backwards) but it's secondary functions are invisibility and invulnerability. I don't know where you get the idea that i'm starring anything that does dps either. I don't regard damage as physically or sensually debilitating so I hope that clears up any confusion.
Cloak used to work only when walking very slowly, it's the exact contrary that needs to be done, be cloaked when you are the most noisy, that is when you run. If you stand still, uncloak.
Cloak used to work only when walking very slowly, it's the exact contrary that needs to be done, be cloaked when you are the most noisy, that is when you run. If you stand still, uncloak.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is actually a really cool suggestion. I don't think I'd appreciate fighting a crazy good walljumping skulk or pancaking lerk, though!
Not charging in ahead of everyone else is actually good gameplay for a marine. Stay back, wait for the enemy to come to you, if they don't, move up as a group.
If the gorge has no melee aliens with it, it isn't a threat and you can rush it. if it does have melee classes, you don't want to run towards them.
If the gorge has no melee aliens with it, it isn't a threat and you can rush it. if it does have melee classes, you don't want to run towards them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actual gameplay is more along the lines of an alien team forcing the marine team to have to push into an ambush when they don't want to.
Please, we're derailing the thread into pointless minutiae.
Apologies for this post and my last, Tweadle
edit: Since this silly post is here!
<!--quoteo(post=1922526:date=Apr 6 2012, 05:01 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 6 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->totally off topic, but i just noticed MuYeah's changed avatar is still a bird and i couldnt help myself:
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0XM3vWJmpfo"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0XM3vWJmpfo" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
:-D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, I'm an ecologist; I'm allowed to put birds on things! Not guilty!?
It hinges on the idea that marines are somehow helpless and entirely unable to do anything about the constant impeding of their abilities, forced to sit and be repeatedly stunned, blinded, slowed, and otherwise abused like helpless children, unable to fight back or do anything.
It reads like an RPSCC advert. Saying 'actually marines can do quite a lot of stuff about it' isn't derailing, it's a counterargument.
It hinges on the idea that marines are somehow helpless and entirely unable to do anything about the constant impeding of their abilities, forced to sit and be repeatedly stunned, blinded, slowed, and otherwise abused like helpless children, unable to fight back or do anything.
It reads like an RPSCC advert. Saying 'actually marines can do quite a lot of stuff about it' isn't derailing, it's a counterargument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it bears repeating that the correct usage of an impeding skill is putting it to use in a situation where you gain an advantage even if it is avoided.
It's fine and good to say the player can avoid the impediments because yes, a large proportion of the time the skills are used willy nilly in the wrong places at the wrong times and the opening created by such skills is not capitalised on. It is the same as a Starcraft player sending in a couple DTs and not following up with the counter to the opponents detection tech path.
In this context, what you're arguing is irrelevent because players <i>will definitely</i> have impediments used on them by a competent team because the correct way to construct a strategy is to force the opposing team to have to weather the impediment skills or lose out even bigger.
What does matter is the amount of impeding, "negative" skills that the player is put through in order to achieve their objectives and how irritating it can be to be affected by them.
The more abilities you have that do things other than kill people unavoidably, the more ways you can have combat which doesn't involve people dying as soon as you see them.
Consider it this way, what's different between fighting a gorge with spit, and fighting against a rocket launcher in quake?
With the rocket launcher their projectiles can easily miss compared to say, the lightning gun, and they make a really obvious noise every time you fire, telegraphing your attack. On the downside their hits can do a lot of damage and you into the lava even if you dodge most of the damage. Pros and cons.
Fighting the gorge, if you get hit, you take penalties, on the plus side, the gorge doesn't put out much damage. Again, pros and cons.
Same with lerks, if they gas the room, you have to move or choke, also you can't see as well, on the other hand it's a lerk that just used a lot of energy, and is showing exactly where it just went, it's weakened and doesn't have a lot of health.
All weapons and abilities have pros and cons in any good game, for both sides.