why so many "i cant play my character correctly skills in this game"
and so many " i cant fckin see ###### on my screen in this game"
people talk about avoiding this or that....
when you know what , most new players will simply avoid this game when they realise they cant SEE MOVE OR ATTACK most of the time on their first play through this game...
thats really gonna pull in fan base to have a NON interactive FPS game -
thank you Techercizer and Gorge Costanza for clearing that up for me. it makes a little more sense now, but i still dont see how this abilitys are different to flashbangs and smokegrenades from other shooters.
but i now know that thats one of the discussions where i allways stay pretty much alone. im that crazy guy, that likes to be stunned, spit on, covered in spores and slowed on investation.
i also like to lose the use of my right arm if it gets wounded, have to crawl when i get shot in the legs and just bleed out from a bellyshot. (Action-HalfLife annyone?)
im too tyred to write it, but immagine a well formulated and conclusive rant, why such abilitys are important and fun for both sides, the one that whields it and the one that overcomes it(sometimes).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i do not agree with spores though - the lerk already has it's tradeoffs for this support buff, and if FT can counter it, then that is all thats needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correct me if I am wrong but can't the comm also scan which will give the marines motion blips to see things through spores as well?
My only beefs are the stun on gore and stomp needs to be toned WAY down (smaller cone or even back to just a root ala NS1).
+1 All those little annoyances almost make me want to uninstall the game. Some of them give me the impression that UWE puts the visual gimmicks first, and forgets about how it feels for the players. Some of the prime examples here are Gore, Blink and Camouflage. And the punishing low health effects of course, I mean what the hell, being almost dead is not enough?
I suggest you bump this thread next week, because I doubt UWE will read it at PAX.
<!--quoteo(post=1922187:date=Apr 5 2012, 05:12 PM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ Apr 5 2012, 05:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe if the gorge is by its self, even then while not threatening it certainly adds unnecessary tedium and initial confusion. How about when the gorge isn't by its self? Say it gets a slow down from the other end of a hallway with a skulk in chase?
It's difficult to be better at the game when your ability to move is being restricted like that. You can't increase the distance between yourself and the skulk as easily or attempt to duke it. Seems pretty restrictive to me.
As for the onos, how can you get away from something that has the ability to see any group of marines on the map due to cyst magic, and then stun lock an entire marine team around a corner? Even jetpackers aren't safe.
You say their isn't one ability that unfairly limits the marines, but don't come up with a single relevant counter argument. Honestly, I think you need to get better at the game to better understand what an unfair restriction is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spit is really hard to hit with, I have trouble hitting marines with it at all, it's so slow and delayed.
The rest is just personal experience. I've fought against all of the things in the OP and I really don't find them unfair. Lerk spores are an interesting change in the battlefield, you have to quickly reassess, find a good spot, and work from there, it changes the nature of the room.
Shade distortions are a cool atmospheric effect, they add a lot to fighting near a shade hive, as does the cloaking, it's really cool to be in a room with things phasing in and out of view and your sound all messed up and you have to find the damn thing and kill it.
Fade blink is exciting, and if I had better ping/equipment I'd probably think it one of the most engaging challenges in the game. My only gripe is that I can't aim properly with the shotgun and the rifle is too ineffective against them generally, also I'd like maybe one more hit before I die, but the actual blink mechanic is cool, I find myself thinking 'ok, he was looking this way, and he's been gone 1.5 seconds, which means he's probably going to come out behind me' and working to predict the fade's movements. The only thing wrong with it is that latency can make my gun a bit unresponsive and also I suck at aiming sometimes, neither of which are problems with blink.
Onoses, they're giant big bricks with some nasty attacks. I've never died to an onos in a way I wouldn't have if it had no stun effects, I die because it's a bloody onos and it's right next to me. That it can stun lock me is fairly immaterial, it's a giant block of hitpoints with a really nasty attack. Your solution is either to kill it before it gets to you or run away, or do both. About the only thing I'd change about its abilities is make it slower, or make its speed up ability use energy. Marines should be able to outrun it if they make a concerted effort to do so right off the bat, at least long enough to get to a better position. The stunning though is fine, it simply encourages you to not bunch up where it can hit all of you easily. If you do that, it's your own silly fault when it murders your entire team.
Basically, stop doing dumb things over and over again and complaining that your subsequent loss is unfair. Different aliens, areas, and abilities bring many different challenges to the battlefield, adapt to them, and you win.
It is more interesting than 'flying blob that kills things near it' and 'wall running blob that kills things near it' and 'flying blob that kills things further away from it' etc etc, to which the universal solution is 'shoot the blob better'. I like <i>engaging</i> challenges, interesting challenges, not the same old thing every time.
Onos stomp, Fade blink, and cloaking are the only 'cheap' abilities that annoy me.
Stomp is essentially a ranged attack which is totally OP when it has so much armour.
Blink has been improved massively by showing the Fade's movement while blinking, but it's still a bit too powerful.
Cloak is currently OP. It gives me free kills as an alien. Would be more balanced if the alien was partially visible, like the famous Predator effect, and they could move a bit faster when cloaked. Having to move crawl to stay cloaked is very boring. The shade should also partially cloak structures. It's visually unappealing to see things appear then vanish without transitioning between the two states.
Some like Quake style games where your skill in aiming and movement is all that counts, they usually play marines; others prefer more atmosphere, as if you're in a film, and are less bothered by 'spell' attacks. UWE should do their best to satisfy both camps - which I think they are doing, slowly.
Let me give some examples
Flamethrower used to insta kill and completely blind aliens. It now does far less damage and you aren't blinded.
Fade blink used to consume less energy and you couldn't see where fades were moving when they blinked. Now it takes more energy and you see the moving orb.
<!--quoteo(post=1922244:date=Apr 5 2012, 11:42 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Apr 5 2012, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922244"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spores will balance out once transparencies are supported by the engine; they're not feature complete right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, also be nice if Spore clouds acted like fog: the closer you are, the more translucent it gets, the further you are, the more opaque it becomes.
The goal of the marine, like in many other FPS games, is to achieve bot-like tracking. The skill ceiling is higher for marines, which is why most games are being won by aliens. On the other hand, I believe marines have an innate advantage vs aliens due to the use of long range weapons. This may not be apparent yet due to the state of game optimization, but I believe people will begin to realize this as they achieve a steady frame rate. Anyways, try starting a server and spawning a marine bot; as a skulk you will die no matter how good you are at movement. Thus the need for things like camouflage for skulks as marines become better at aiming.
Like camouflage, I think aliens need most of their annoying abilities in order to fight properly. This forces marines to engage in groups to ensure survival. The transition from visible to camouflaged is a great idea. I agree that lerk spores need some translucency, and it should also apply to flamethrower particles. I don't really have a problem with blink since one marine with a shotty hiding behind a corner can use his teammate as bait. Gore can definitely be annoying, but without the knockback, the targeted marine can sprint away behind his teammates. I also think onii will need stomp later on vs exosuits.
<!--quoteo(post=1922210:date=Apr 5 2012, 01:21 PM:name=Gorge Costanza)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorge Costanza @ Apr 5 2012, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He was saying there are too many abilities which inhibit opponents: removing speed, or vision, or the ability to act. Typically, games try to keep abilities like that to a minimum because they *aren't fun*.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> An example of this is from TF2. There were two weapons off the top of my head that were definitely not fun to play against. The Scout class received the Sandman, which was a bat that fired a baseball, stunning enemies on hit. I believe the stun duration was initially the same (pretty long) for all ranges, and it was nerfed so that close range stuns were shorter. The Heavy class received the Natascha, a minigun that slowed enemies on hit regardless of range. Very powerful vs the fast moving Scout. Its DPS was reduced as a result, making it much less powerful.
But the two teams in NS2 play completely differently from one another, which is why I still think aliens need their special abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1922272:date=Apr 5 2012, 12:55 PM:name=Karnaj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Karnaj @ Apr 5 2012, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An example of this is from TF2. There were two weapons off the top of my head that were definitely not fun to play against. The Scout class received the Sandman, which was a bat that fired a baseball, stunning enemies on hit. I believe the stun duration was initially the same (pretty long) for all ranges, and it was nerfed so that close range stuns were shorter. The Heavy class received the Natascha, a minigun that slowed enemies on hit regardless of range. Very powerful vs the fast moving Scout. Its DPS was reduced as a result, making it much less powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, both of these weapons, especially the pre-nerf Sandman, were pretty widely disliked. No one likes stuns or slows.
You could probably count the Pyro's air blast too, but that was usually amusing even if you got smoked by it.
<!--quoteo(post=1922215:date=Apr 5 2012, 11:42 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Apr 5 2012, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922215"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that removing all these things would make the game a boring actionfest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Boring.... Actionfest
WHAT
Boring and Action are Antonyms, meaning total opposites -
I think some people are misunderstanding my gripe and are accusing me of thinking things are unfair. I'm not highlighting these abilities to say that they're unbalanced or anything. Even if I did think that was the case, I wouldn't argue for lots of 'counters' like flamethrowers to spores for example. Counters moderate the problem but don't solve it. I'm also fully aware that what I call a problem, others might think a fun feature. If Venatos and Chris like to be slowed, stunned, blinded, confused etc. by every player/structure under the sun then I won't try to argue against them. We will always disagree (though Chris ought to be careful who he tells to "play better"!).
People can debate each ability forever but I think it'll obscure the overall point. What i'm trying to illustrate is how frequently I feel inhibited in NS2. Each ability, by itself, might be relatively harmless but it is the sheer number of impairing abilities that makes me concerned. The fact that they come early in the game is an even bigger concern.
Associating the replacement of negative abilities with positive ones and the game being a boring actionfest is one of the less clever things said in this thread. There is absolutely nothing to say that the same strategic variety and intellectual stimulation isn't possible with a focus on positivity. Quite frankly, I don't find silence and cloak that strategically interesting at all. Perhaps you think otherwise, Zek, but I've always found that trying to counter invisibility and a silence-skulk from behind is a limited choice scenario. I can either shoot the whole screen to check for a skulk, look behind me every two seconds or not push ahead at all. The only interesting decision comes at commander level (who doesn't have to deal with it in the first place), who can decide to scan or research motion-tracking for instance.
Yuuki rightly adds drifter flares to the list of negative abilities and I dare say the Alien Commander will receive further suspicious skills. Low-health vision/sound blur is a massive frustration as a marine and I really don't see the need for it. Flashlights are noteworthy too but this stems from a much greater impairment which is the darkness that UWE have deemed important to immersion/gameplay. Darkness divides opinion and I happen to be against it but I won't argue why here. That's because it's only one thing on a long list of what I feel is unnecessarily negative. I've also just been reminded of rifle mini-stun so we're getting well into the twenties!
Lastly, in response to Karnaj, I understand that aliens require certain ways of competing against expert aim. I don't think that it has to come in the form of a bunch of ways that make it difficult to aim in the first place though. In moderation, it's just fine but I would rather see aliens competing because of good movement systems and more by the way of alien buffs. Carapace and Celerity are two of many examples of abilities that increase the chance of survival without doing anything to affect the marine. You only need to look at NS1 to see how it's possible to achieve what you want without resorting to cloak, stun, confuse tactics.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I get your point, but i think a lot of "harassing" features are in place so that teamwork is encouraged/required and that abilities are better able to complement each other. something like spores makes a lot of sense, tactically here, (and has the tradeoff of lerk vulnerability / meta game of flying / energy loss .) and yes a counter does moderate this - considering "solving it" i'm assuming to you means removing it?
Whatever khamm will be able to do, i hope it includes both ways of playing - so he is just complementary. While i like buffs i think there should be harrassing mechanics too. its sort of like offense and defense in this way. So if this means harassing methods akin to going zombie team in L4D, then so be it -<b> its an asymmetric way to effect the opposing force negatively, and feeling that level of "control" or "impact" (think boomer) can be addictingly fun. </b> I definitely agree regarding restricting or freezing player movement, though. it should be avoided as much as possible. But there's a distinction to keep in mind: being screened by a smoke grenade is a far different experience from watching a cinematic of you dying without having a say in the matter.
I like tactical variety and I can see the reason and design decisions behind something like spores (even though it's not working that well at the moment). I just don't think tactical variety or "harassment", as you put it, requires debuffing. Spores were much better at harassing in NS1, for instance, where the DoT effect never placed any restrictions on movement and where the cloud was never so opaque that you couldn't see what you were doing.
I find it hard to believe that the thought process behind each "negative" ability was to encourage teamwork. Spore is always the example used because it's possibly the only ability that's easy to argue this case for. The rest, I feel, have weak/loose teamwork arguments or none at all. Teamwork was essential in NS1, more so than the majority of games, so I hope we avoid the premise that impairing abilities are necessary to encourage it.
I view asymmetry as a red herring in this debate. Alien abilities are so vastly unique to begin with that any surplus of impairing abilities is just that, a surplus. I think we would be remiss to go down that line, especially considering NS2 has adopted many more symmetric aspects, the Comm/Kham and PowerGrid/Infestation being two examples. I love asymmetry, I really do, but the core of what made NS asymmetric was ranged/melee and the one-sided RTS system.
My main worry is that people feel like negative abilities are necessary to achieve certain things like teamwork, asymmetry and balance. I don't believe this is the case and NS1 is strong evidence for why they aren't. I think the bulk of the argument, therefore, lies in whether people consider these abilities fun. I personally don't like <i>the extent to which</i> I feel inhibited. I also don't like how cheap and easy it feels to be impaired. When I got devoured or webbed in NS1, it was a big deal and something that was out of the ordinary. When I am spat, spored, disorientated, infested, cloaked, blinked, rifle-stunned and so on, it feels like my input in the game is being suffocated too often and too easily!
I don't agree that most of these abilities are a problem mostly there is a way to counter these, but there is an exception: the onos stomp/ gore stun. There is no real way to counter this (except using map exploits, like stomp not going up some staircases for example), and it is annoying to play against. It is annoying because it feels cheap as it requires virtually no skill to execute.
The other abilities have some counters more or less. As for spores and infesation, as someone pointed out the flamethrower role could be improved there so it's also able to get rid of spores in the air (though I feel that would make the lerk less useful :P) and infesation properly.
Actually I think these negative abilities make a lot of senese given the scenario, a technically superior race vs a biologically superior race. It should also reinforce the reason to have proper teamplay. It is true that some of the counter come at commading level, though that can also be addressed though some more options for players.
Anyway, if devs actually have the time to do it, a build to compare both mechanisms would be nice, eg. a postive one vs a negative one and see which is preferred by the commnity. Though some things, shade for example, don't really have a postive opposite. Making marines visible all the time? Infesation does that already, so not quite :P
Whether or not there are counters, we will undoubtedly find ourselves in situations where we don't have the counter and/or when the counter is costly or not optimal. Sometimes the counter doesn't lie within your hands. For example, the commander is responsible for many counters and, while I agree that the commander needs things to do, relying on him for your gamer experience can be frustrating. You observe this yourself and we will be hard-pressed to find counters for everything at ground level which is why I suggest that we are at the point where inhibition is too prevalent. I can go on to craft many more situations where you won't have the counter but I think you get where i'm going. Even with a full complement of ideal equipment, teammates and a commander, the chances are still high that you will be restricted in some way. Remove any of those three and the chance grows higher still.
Just for the record, stomp and gore aren't the only negative abilities without counters. Slow-on-hit spit, spores, blink/shadowstep, infestation, umbra, flares, rifle-butt stun are also examples of widely used abilities that an opponent has very little by way of a response besides evasion. I don't want to get too bogged down in discussing each ability, however, because I don't think introducing a counter to everything is necessarily the answer (and we tend to get sidetracked over individual abilities easily).
Negative abilities might make sense, given the scenario, but this is also a path that I do not want to tread. Our justifications for such things should be based on their merit to the game, not the story.
Let's take all of them in to account as see how they play out instead of picking the ones that are easy to defend/attack.
<u>Gorge Spit</u> - The slow is completely unneeded and should be removed. Raise the RoF and fix belly slide. It is incredibly annoying to be hit by this. The times i have been hit the gorge never runs away but continues to hit me as i try to scramble behind a wall at the speed of smell.
<u>Goo Wall</u> - Sounds like webs on steroids. Ill reserve judgement.
<u>Spore</u> - Needs to be more "see through" and spread out more. Let the emphasis be on damage instead of obscuring.
<u>Fade Blink</u> - TOTALLY built off the cosmetic value for cinematics. This was clear from the word go that this ability was eye candy at whatever cost. What other game let's a unit go invisible <b>and</b> be invulnerable at will? I personally wish it was scrapped totally and redone.
<u>Gore </u>- Does not need a knock down. It takes about two seconds to be knocked to the ground, have your aim screwed up, and readjust your aim while standing. In this time the onos can gore again for the kill. No fun at all. It is a standard melee attack and the onos is no longer the super weapon. Remove the damn knockdown.
<u>Stomp</u> - It can be avoided if you time your jump. I do like that but i find i only survive about 2 secs longer(gore comes next). This is one ability though i dont mind all that much because it doesnt do anything but pause you in place for a second or two.
<u>Umbra</u> - seems to be even weaker than it was in NS because of it's limited roll and commander only "use" feature. Kinda a waste imo.
I havent had much exp with disorient and phantasm sounds silly too me so i will leave those two for someone else.
<u>Marine rifle butt</u> - needs to go away also. That is what your switch axe it for. Why have a redundant move? Get something special for alt fire. For now i would love to see a 3- round burst. It seems to help with bullet reg when you dont hold the trigger till the clip is empty.
<u>Infestation Hive sight</u> - Another feature that needs to go bye bye. What is skulk para-siting for then? The Khamm has spread his Infestation over the most important areas already. The game forces them too, so why add this marine debuff not to mention the ridiculous speed loss.
There just isnt much reason for most of the above. I wanted to quote UWE with their design decision not to take control away from the player when possible. Cant find it.
Just to note: I don't regard infestation hive sight as "negative", it's the slowdown that marines receive. That's not to say I disagree with you though :P
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
How about speeding up marines off infestation instead of slowing them down ON infestation? Then it would be a positive feature rather than a negative, right???
Just pointing out that giving aliens a bonus to speed on infestation is exactly the same thing as having them slow down off infestation. Just depends on what you choose to place the normal.
Well, since usually a small proportion of the map is covered by infestation and the alien comm has to actively choose where to place it then I'd put the baseline with non-infested.
Although I don't particularly enjoy territorial buffs in general as it discourages offensive manouevres from both sides.
I'm sure you realise that my concerns would still be there either way, matso. Much of people's sensations of speed/restriction depends on what is the common denominator. Leap, for example, doesn't make normal skulk running feel slow because it's an acquired ability that is periodically used. Likewise, taking celerity will have an opportunity cost attached to it so the speed is a tradeoff for something else and you end up feeling fast with celerity rather than feeling slow without. It's a subtle difference but I believe that there are often ways of creating the sensation of being boosted rather than being restricted. In any case, you're doing what I hoped wouldn't happen which is focus on one particular facet of a wider problem (plenty of other examples given aren't remedied by changing an enemy debuff into a friendly buff). You could be right about infestation and I still feel like I would have a strong argument. I guess I've already bitten though... so i'll continue!
When I was a playtester, I suggested speeding aliens up on infestation rather than slowing marines down on it. I was suspicious of any kind of speed alterations in the first place but I reckoned that if it was going ahead, then it should be a speed increase rather than a speed decrease. I was worried, however, that the wide presence of infestation would just lead to the reverse effect for aliens on uninfested ground. Overall, I opposed both.
I remember it being introduced to make things feel more like "alien territory" and I hoped that an alternative would be found. Even without an alternative, I felt that we had reason to be content with the fact that it grants hivesight, structure placement possibilities and aesthetic cues for alien advancement - I thought these were enough.
edit: I also warned against territorial buffs in general for the reasons Mu just said but that's for another thread!
<!--quoteo(post=1922486:date=Apr 6 2012, 01:56 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Apr 6 2012, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but take it easy guys and focus on your real concerns. they are trying to wrap this up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But... but... Beta! At least isn't that what we've been beaten over the head with in so many threads? Or... was that just an argument to shut us up? The internet has now taken even more of my naivety.
Skill for pure melee unit in combat situation: "is to get as close to marines as possible taking as little as possible damage while doing so". There are three ways to do it:
1) By ambushing 2) By teamwork 3) By movement
In NS1 you normally needed two of these three to kill decent marine/marines. NS did this perfectly because all there three ways were well balanced, something we can't say about L4D. NS2 is similiar to L4D in this aspect. You close your distance to marines mainly by teamwork and ambushing but unlike L4D, NS2 isn't as well suited to this kind of teamwork because fixed spawning points for example (sometimes marines can just camp in some important area and only way win a game is to rush them). Anyways, negative abilities like cloak makes skill useless because even my granmom can close distance to marines with cloak. This was common knowledge in NS1. Hell, I even forbid my clanmates to use silence, even if you could get easy frags only by yourself while silenced, it was useless upgrade if your team worked together. Most of negative features dont add teamwork but destroys it.
I'm not saying that every negative feature is bad. One should always think what every feature add to the game and what it takes away, unfortunately things like silence or cloak takes more than gives.
IMO to fix the fade just give him more HP, make it so your are slightly visible in blink, and always vulnerable. Then you keep the fancy effects, but the gameplay would actually work.
Comments
why so many "i cant play my character correctly skills in this game"
and so many " i cant fckin see ###### on my screen in this game"
people talk about avoiding this or that....
when you know what , most new players will simply avoid this game when they realise they cant SEE MOVE OR ATTACK most of the time on their first play through this game...
thats really gonna pull in fan base to have a NON interactive FPS game -
but i now know that thats one of the discussions where i allways stay pretty much alone.
im that crazy guy, that likes to be stunned, spit on, covered in spores and slowed on investation.
i also like to lose the use of my right arm if it gets wounded, have to crawl when i get shot in the legs and just bleed out from a bellyshot. (Action-HalfLife annyone?)
im too tyred to write it, but immagine a well formulated and conclusive rant, why such abilitys are important and fun for both sides, the one that whields it and the one that overcomes it(sometimes).
Correct me if I am wrong but can't the comm also scan which will give the marines motion blips to see things through spores as well?
My only beefs are the stun on gore and stomp needs to be toned WAY down (smaller cone or even back to just a root ala NS1).
All those little annoyances almost make me want to uninstall the game.
Some of them give me the impression that UWE puts the visual gimmicks first, and forgets about how it feels for the players. Some of the prime examples here are Gore, Blink and Camouflage. And the punishing low health effects of course, I mean what the hell, being almost dead is not enough?
I suggest you bump this thread next week, because I doubt UWE will read it at PAX.
How about when the gorge isn't by its self? Say it gets a slow down from the other end of a hallway with a skulk in chase?
It's difficult to be better at the game when your ability to move is being restricted like that. You can't increase the distance between yourself and the skulk as easily or attempt to duke it. Seems pretty restrictive to me.
As for the onos, how can you get away from something that has the ability to see any group of marines on the map due to cyst magic, and then stun lock an entire marine team around a corner? Even jetpackers aren't safe.
You say their isn't one ability that unfairly limits the marines, but don't come up with a single relevant counter argument.
Honestly, I think you need to get better at the game to better understand what an unfair restriction is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spit is really hard to hit with, I have trouble hitting marines with it at all, it's so slow and delayed.
The rest is just personal experience. I've fought against all of the things in the OP and I really don't find them unfair. Lerk spores are an interesting change in the battlefield, you have to quickly reassess, find a good spot, and work from there, it changes the nature of the room.
Shade distortions are a cool atmospheric effect, they add a lot to fighting near a shade hive, as does the cloaking, it's really cool to be in a room with things phasing in and out of view and your sound all messed up and you have to find the damn thing and kill it.
Fade blink is exciting, and if I had better ping/equipment I'd probably think it one of the most engaging challenges in the game. My only gripe is that I can't aim properly with the shotgun and the rifle is too ineffective against them generally, also I'd like maybe one more hit before I die, but the actual blink mechanic is cool, I find myself thinking 'ok, he was looking this way, and he's been gone 1.5 seconds, which means he's probably going to come out behind me' and working to predict the fade's movements. The only thing wrong with it is that latency can make my gun a bit unresponsive and also I suck at aiming sometimes, neither of which are problems with blink.
Onoses, they're giant big bricks with some nasty attacks. I've never died to an onos in a way I wouldn't have if it had no stun effects, I die because it's a bloody onos and it's right next to me. That it can stun lock me is fairly immaterial, it's a giant block of hitpoints with a really nasty attack. Your solution is either to kill it before it gets to you or run away, or do both. About the only thing I'd change about its abilities is make it slower, or make its speed up ability use energy. Marines should be able to outrun it if they make a concerted effort to do so right off the bat, at least long enough to get to a better position. The stunning though is fine, it simply encourages you to not bunch up where it can hit all of you easily. If you do that, it's your own silly fault when it murders your entire team.
Basically, stop doing dumb things over and over again and complaining that your subsequent loss is unfair. Different aliens, areas, and abilities bring many different challenges to the battlefield, adapt to them, and you win.
It is more interesting than 'flying blob that kills things near it' and 'wall running blob that kills things near it' and 'flying blob that kills things further away from it' etc etc, to which the universal solution is 'shoot the blob better'. I like <i>engaging</i> challenges, interesting challenges, not the same old thing every time.
Stomp is essentially a ranged attack which is totally OP when it has so much armour.
Blink has been improved massively by showing the Fade's movement while blinking, but it's still a bit too powerful.
Cloak is currently OP. It gives me free kills as an alien. Would be more balanced if the alien was partially visible, like the famous Predator effect, and they could move a bit faster when cloaked. Having to move crawl to stay cloaked is very boring. The shade should also partially cloak structures. It's visually unappealing to see things appear then vanish without transitioning between the two states.
Some like Quake style games where your skill in aiming and movement is all that counts, they usually play marines; others prefer more atmosphere, as if you're in a film, and are less bothered by 'spell' attacks. UWE should do their best to satisfy both camps - which I think they are doing, slowly.
Let me give some examples
Flamethrower used to insta kill and completely blind aliens. It now does far less damage and you aren't blinded.
Fade blink used to consume less energy and you couldn't see where fades were moving when they blinked. Now it takes more energy and you see the moving orb.
This, also be nice if Spore clouds acted like fog: the closer you are, the more translucent it gets, the further you are, the more opaque it becomes.
Like camouflage, I think aliens need most of their annoying abilities in order to fight properly. This forces marines to engage in groups to ensure survival. The transition from visible to camouflaged is a great idea. I agree that lerk spores need some translucency, and it should also apply to flamethrower particles. I don't really have a problem with blink since one marine with a shotty hiding behind a corner can use his teammate as bait. Gore can definitely be annoying, but without the knockback, the targeted marine can sprint away behind his teammates. I also think onii will need stomp later on vs exosuits.
<!--quoteo(post=1922210:date=Apr 5 2012, 01:21 PM:name=Gorge Costanza)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorge Costanza @ Apr 5 2012, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He was saying there are too many abilities which inhibit opponents: removing speed, or vision, or the ability to act. Typically, games try to keep abilities like that to a minimum because they *aren't fun*.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An example of this is from TF2. There were two weapons off the top of my head that were definitely not fun to play against. The Scout class received the Sandman, which was a bat that fired a baseball, stunning enemies on hit. I believe the stun duration was initially the same (pretty long) for all ranges, and it was nerfed so that close range stuns were shorter. The Heavy class received the Natascha, a minigun that slowed enemies on hit regardless of range. Very powerful vs the fast moving Scout. Its DPS was reduced as a result, making it much less powerful.
But the two teams in NS2 play completely differently from one another, which is why I still think aliens need their special abilities.
Yes, both of these weapons, especially the pre-nerf Sandman, were pretty widely disliked. No one likes stuns or slows.
You could probably count the Pyro's air blast too, but that was usually amusing even if you got smoked by it.
Boring.... Actionfest
WHAT
Boring and Action are Antonyms, meaning total opposites -
so i say again - this makes no sense -
<img src="http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/NecropsY/what.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
WHAT
Boring and Action are Antonyms, meaning total opposites -
so i say again - this makes no sense -<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dynasty Warriors is full of action, yet is boring to many people.
People can debate each ability forever but I think it'll obscure the overall point. What i'm trying to illustrate is how frequently I feel inhibited in NS2. Each ability, by itself, might be relatively harmless but it is the sheer number of impairing abilities that makes me concerned. The fact that they come early in the game is an even bigger concern.
Associating the replacement of negative abilities with positive ones and the game being a boring actionfest is one of the less clever things said in this thread. There is absolutely nothing to say that the same strategic variety and intellectual stimulation isn't possible with a focus on positivity. Quite frankly, I don't find silence and cloak that strategically interesting at all. Perhaps you think otherwise, Zek, but I've always found that trying to counter invisibility and a silence-skulk from behind is a limited choice scenario. I can either shoot the whole screen to check for a skulk, look behind me every two seconds or not push ahead at all. The only interesting decision comes at commander level (who doesn't have to deal with it in the first place), who can decide to scan or research motion-tracking for instance.
Yuuki rightly adds drifter flares to the list of negative abilities and I dare say the Alien Commander will receive further suspicious skills. Low-health vision/sound blur is a massive frustration as a marine and I really don't see the need for it. Flashlights are noteworthy too but this stems from a much greater impairment which is the darkness that UWE have deemed important to immersion/gameplay. Darkness divides opinion and I happen to be against it but I won't argue why here. That's because it's only one thing on a long list of what I feel is unnecessarily negative. I've also just been reminded of rifle mini-stun so we're getting well into the twenties!
Lastly, in response to Karnaj, I understand that aliens require certain ways of competing against expert aim. I don't think that it has to come in the form of a bunch of ways that make it difficult to aim in the first place though. In moderation, it's just fine but I would rather see aliens competing because of good movement systems and more by the way of alien buffs. Carapace and Celerity are two of many examples of abilities that increase the chance of survival without doing anything to affect the marine. You only need to look at NS1 to see how it's possible to achieve what you want without resorting to cloak, stun, confuse tactics.
It would be interesting to see what would happen if things were flipped from negative to positive aspects (e.g. infestation increases alien speed)
Whatever khamm will be able to do, i hope it includes both ways of playing - so he is just complementary. While i like buffs i think there should be harrassing mechanics too. its sort of like offense and defense in this way. So if this means harassing methods akin to going zombie team in L4D, then so be it -<b> its an asymmetric way to effect the opposing force negatively, and feeling that level of "control" or "impact" (think boomer) can be addictingly fun.
</b>
I definitely agree regarding restricting or freezing player movement, though. it should be avoided as much as possible. But there's a distinction to keep in mind: being screened by a smoke grenade is a far different experience from watching a cinematic of you dying without having a say in the matter.
I find it hard to believe that the thought process behind each "negative" ability was to encourage teamwork. Spore is always the example used because it's possibly the only ability that's easy to argue this case for. The rest, I feel, have weak/loose teamwork arguments or none at all. Teamwork was essential in NS1, more so than the majority of games, so I hope we avoid the premise that impairing abilities are necessary to encourage it.
I view asymmetry as a red herring in this debate. Alien abilities are so vastly unique to begin with that any surplus of impairing abilities is just that, a surplus. I think we would be remiss to go down that line, especially considering NS2 has adopted many more symmetric aspects, the Comm/Kham and PowerGrid/Infestation being two examples. I love asymmetry, I really do, but the core of what made NS asymmetric was ranged/melee and the one-sided RTS system.
My main worry is that people feel like negative abilities are necessary to achieve certain things like teamwork, asymmetry and balance. I don't believe this is the case and NS1 is strong evidence for why they aren't. I think the bulk of the argument, therefore, lies in whether people consider these abilities fun. I personally don't like <i>the extent to which</i> I feel inhibited. I also don't like how cheap and easy it feels to be impaired. When I got devoured or webbed in NS1, it was a big deal and something that was out of the ordinary. When I am spat, spored, disorientated, infested, cloaked, blinked, rifle-stunned and so on, it feels like my input in the game is being suffocated too often and too easily!
The other abilities have some counters more or less. As for spores and infesation, as someone pointed out the flamethrower role could be improved there so it's also able to get rid of spores in the air (though I feel that would make the lerk less useful :P) and infesation properly.
Actually I think these negative abilities make a lot of senese given the scenario, a technically superior race vs a biologically superior race. It should also reinforce the reason to have proper teamplay. It is true that some of the counter come at commading level, though that can also be addressed though some more options for players.
Anyway, if devs actually have the time to do it, a build to compare both mechanisms would be nice, eg. a postive one vs a negative one and see which is preferred by the commnity. Though some things, shade for example, don't really have a postive opposite. Making marines visible all the time? Infesation does that already, so not quite :P
Just for the record, stomp and gore aren't the only negative abilities without counters. Slow-on-hit spit, spores, blink/shadowstep, infestation, umbra, flares, rifle-butt stun are also examples of widely used abilities that an opponent has very little by way of a response besides evasion. I don't want to get too bogged down in discussing each ability, however, because I don't think introducing a counter to everything is necessarily the answer (and we tend to get sidetracked over individual abilities easily).
Negative abilities might make sense, given the scenario, but this is also a path that I do not want to tread. Our justifications for such things should be based on their merit to the game, not the story.
NS2 Skulk: Bite - Parasite - Leap - Xenocide
NS2 Gorge: Spit* - Heal Spray // Hydra - Goo wall*
NS2 Lerk: Spikes - Spore* - Bilebomb
NS2 Fade: Swipe - Blink* - Stab // Shadowstep*
NS2 Onos: Gore* - Stomp* - Smash // Charge*
NS2 Crag: Heal - Umbra* - Babblers
--NS2 Shell: Carapace - Regeneration
NS2 Shade: Disorient* - Cloak* - Phantasm*
--NS2 Veil: Camouflage* - Silence*
NS2 Shift: Recall - Energize - Echo
--NS2 Spur: Celerity - Hypermutation
Infestation* - AlienVision*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's take all of them in to account as see how they play out instead of picking the ones that are easy to defend/attack.
<u>Gorge Spit</u> - The slow is completely unneeded and should be removed. Raise the RoF and fix belly slide. It is incredibly annoying to be hit by this. The times i have been hit the gorge never runs away but continues to hit me as i try to scramble behind a wall at the speed of smell.
<u>Goo Wall</u> - Sounds like webs on steroids. Ill reserve judgement.
<u>Spore</u> - Needs to be more "see through" and spread out more. Let the emphasis be on damage instead of obscuring.
<u>Fade Blink</u> - TOTALLY built off the cosmetic value for cinematics. This was clear from the word go that this ability was eye candy at whatever cost. What other game let's a unit go invisible <b>and</b> be invulnerable at will? I personally wish it was scrapped totally and redone.
<u>Gore </u>- Does not need a knock down. It takes about two seconds to be knocked to the ground, have your aim screwed up, and readjust your aim while standing. In this time the onos can gore again for the kill. No fun at all. It is a standard melee attack and the onos is no longer the super weapon. Remove the damn knockdown.
<u>Stomp</u> - It can be avoided if you time your jump. I do like that but i find i only survive about 2 secs longer(gore comes next). This is one ability though i dont mind all that much because it doesnt do anything but pause you in place for a second or two.
<u>Umbra</u> - seems to be even weaker than it was in NS because of it's limited roll and commander only "use" feature. Kinda a waste imo.
I havent had much exp with disorient and phantasm sounds silly too me so i will leave those two for someone else.
<u>Marine rifle butt</u> - needs to go away also. That is what your switch axe it for. Why have a redundant move? Get something special for alt fire. For now i would love to see a 3- round burst. It seems to help with bullet reg when you dont hold the trigger till the clip is empty.
<u>Infestation Hive sight</u> - Another feature that needs to go bye bye. What is skulk para-siting for then? The Khamm has spread his Infestation over the most important areas already. The game forces them too, so why add this marine debuff not to mention the ridiculous speed loss.
There just isnt much reason for most of the above. I wanted to quote UWE with their design decision not to take control away from the player when possible. Cant find it.
Just pointing out that giving aliens a bonus to speed on infestation is exactly the same thing as having them slow down off infestation. Just depends on what you choose to place the normal.
Although I don't particularly enjoy territorial buffs in general as it discourages offensive manouevres from both sides.
When I was a playtester, I suggested speeding aliens up on infestation rather than slowing marines down on it. I was suspicious of any kind of speed alterations in the first place but I reckoned that if it was going ahead, then it should be a speed increase rather than a speed decrease. I was worried, however, that the wide presence of infestation would just lead to the reverse effect for aliens on uninfested ground. Overall, I opposed both.
I remember it being introduced to make things feel more like "alien territory" and I hoped that an alternative would be found. Even without an alternative, I felt that we had reason to be content with the fact that it grants hivesight, structure placement possibilities and aesthetic cues for alien advancement - I thought these were enough.
edit: I also warned against territorial buffs in general for the reasons Mu just said but that's for another thread!
you guys are killing me.
you are suggesting (demanding sometimes) that they scrap all these things and start from scratch.
the OP i will grant made a good argument for ...it might be a bit much
which is something to ponder for minor adjustments tweaks etc
but take it easy guys and focus on your real concerns.
they are trying to wrap this up.
they are trying to wrap this up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But... but... Beta! At least isn't that what we've been beaten over the head with in so many threads? Or... was that just an argument to shut us up? The internet has now taken even more of my naivety.
1) By ambushing
2) By teamwork
3) By movement
In NS1 you normally needed two of these three to kill decent marine/marines. NS did this perfectly because all there three ways were well balanced, something we can't say about L4D. NS2 is similiar to L4D in this aspect. You close your distance to marines mainly by teamwork and ambushing but unlike L4D, NS2 isn't as well suited to this kind of teamwork because fixed spawning points for example (sometimes marines can just camp in some important area and only way win a game is to rush them).
Anyways, negative abilities like cloak makes skill useless because even my granmom can close distance to marines with cloak. This was common knowledge in NS1. Hell, I even forbid my clanmates to use silence, even if you could get easy frags only by yourself while silenced, it was useless upgrade if your team worked together. Most of negative features dont add teamwork but destroys it.
I'm not saying that every negative feature is bad. One should always think what every feature add to the game and what it takes away, unfortunately things like silence or cloak takes more than gives.
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:-D