1 hive onos
Gadx
Join Date: 2003-03-22 Member: 14788Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-03-22 Member: 14788Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
Per the patch notes "Unchained alien lifeforms from hives. Now Fade is available at Hive 1 and Onos at Hive 2. However, not all abilities will be available (ie, Blink only available with 2 hives, etc.)"
I am guessing 1 hive onos is a bug or there is a typo.
If its a typo, is having smash on 1 hive really that balanced?
I am guessing 1 hive onos is a bug or there is a typo.
If its a typo, is having smash on 1 hive really that balanced?
Comments
He said getting the onos at hive 1 is a bug because of that, I assume you can get the onos at hive 1 ingame?
I wonder if we'll see any "hard stops" for marines developed (something along the lines of antitank weapons, or sentry guns upgraded to do slow ROF, really high damage shots) to counter this? You'll see some variety then...
If aliens survive 15 minutes, they win. It gets to the point where as soon as the first aliens hit 75 res, you have 2-3 onos pop out. When there are that many onos there is simply nothing the marines can do.
The timing for Onos is after second hive already, unless the commander is bad and spamming crags/whips. If it's because the aliens are losing res points then that delays the Onos evolves just as much as the second hive, therefore changing nothing except for taking away the possibility of a late game desperate breakout effort from the aliens. Which I don't think should be removed.
I think the issue lays deeper than the hives in that it's too hard to take down resource points of decent alien teams, therefore the aliens have no problem saving for relatively quick Onos. Cysts aren't worth killing because not only does the alien com earn enough for a new cyst much faster than they did on the energy iteration, they only have to spend the pres on cysts so you're not delaying anything else by forcing the commander to create more.
Killing off cysts and an extractor or two used to be an incredibly effective means to delay the second hive and damage the alien income for an extended period not only because of the lost flow of resources, but the limited ability to replace it.
And hopefully the exosuit will have the firepower to combat the flood of lategame Oni.
This wouldn't change anything about early Onos, which is the what marines have an issue dealing with.
<!--quoteo(post=1917523:date=Mar 26 2012, 03:19 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Mar 26 2012, 03:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hive 1 Onos would be fine as long as smash was moved to a second or third hive. It takes a fair amount of time to save up for the Onos and there is also a bit of time gestating into the Onos even with catalyst. And if the marines are slipping up to allow the aliens to get 75 p.res lifeforms constantly they're obviously losing in the resource game.
And hopefully the exosuit will have the firepower to combat the flood of lategame Oni.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. Gore on 1 hive, Smash on 2 and Stomp on 3.
When marines can't have enough upgrades/armor tech (jetpacks/exosuit) available to fight onos, it's not the presence of smash/stomp that make them too good. It's the fact that I can hold down W and mouse1 as an onos, and if all my teammates do that too, we win no matter what you do.
Well that implies no one went Gorge/Lerk/Fade the entire time. Which should result in complete marine map domination.
When marines can't have enough upgrades/armor tech (jetpacks/exosuit) available to fight onos, it's not the presence of smash/stomp that make them too good. It's the fact that I can hold down W and mouse1 as an onos, and if all my teammates do that too, we win no matter what you do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
totally agree! This is how it was in NS1. A one hive onos has only one upgrade and was REALLY dead meat. No idea why they didnt go back to the same model when the unchaining of lifeforms was introduced. We dont need a limiter of 2 hives, just make his health scale, tone down natural alien regen (not the upgrade), and make abilities unlock with hives. The standard gore attack should NOT throw your opponent and certainly not for as long as it does. I would rather be devoured.
<!--quoteo(post=1917577:date=Mar 25 2012, 04:25 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Mar 25 2012, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well that implies no one went Gorge/Lerk/Fade the entire time. Which should result in complete marine map domination.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is little need for a gorge now due to the Cyst Pres switch, Lerks are just an annoyance and easily killed due to their mid to short range combat design, and skulks are pretty damn good through out the game (as it should be). There is no reason to even spend res.
By the same token, it always seems like half the team is saving for Fade at any given time, and so there's always the question of "why not just save 25 more pres and go onos?"
The lifeform economy is pretty weird. It's not like a shotgun (which your friend can pick up) or mines (which can kill things 10 minutes after you place them) or a welder (which is so cheap it's basically an incidental you pick up if you need one), a lifeform is a one-off mutation that really you really ought to get your money's worth out of during the one life you've got with it. It says something about the relative effectiveness of the lesser lifeforms if they're getting ignored in favor of something that costs 1.5-2.5x as much, which is theoretically intended to fight heavy armor and breach rooms.
I am curious to see, once the Exoskeleton goes in (and hopefully is an early tech option for marines), if we keep having Onos problems...
This is what actually happens, because lerk and gorge are both bad.
<!--quoteo(post=1917599:date=Mar 25 2012, 01:45 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Mar 25 2012, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with RisingSun; if Gorge and Lerk had more to do/were deadlier, we might not see a wall of Onii.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We would, but it's also another way of shoving problems under the rug. The proper way to solve a problem like this is to attack it directly, because otherwise you start complicating the design of the game with arbitrary rules (like giving more mechanics/attention to the lerk/gorge to match mistakes in the onos/fade).
<!--quoteo(post=1917599:date=Mar 25 2012, 01:45 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Mar 25 2012, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It says something about the relative effectiveness of the lesser lifeforms if they're getting ignored in favor of something that costs 1.5-2.5x as much, which is theoretically intended to fight heavy armor and breach rooms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, and it has been this way for almost the entire life of the game. From when the fade was introduced until now, people in the large scale don't play lerk and gorge as much as you would expect. It's not because nobody likes those lifeforms, either. It's because they don't win games easily, and others do. Lerk has always been especially telling - 90% of new players in pubs just act like the class doesn't exist, because their first experience with it was slowly flying into a shotgun and dying instantly. Gorges, on the other hand...people like to make hydras and chill out.
It's nearly autowin for aliens in any games > 10 minutes. All you have to do is have 1 or 2 skulks save for the 75 pres while the rest go gorge/lerk/skulk. Then you have two onos to work with and it's pretty easy to wipe out an entire team at that point.
Total blasphemy of balance.
[EDIT]
To try and be helpful:
1) scale hp/armor for the onos with hive numbers.
2) disable smash before second hive
3) disable impale knockdown before second hive
It's nearly autowin for aliens in any games > 10 minutes. All you have to do is have 1 or 2 skulks save for the 75 pres while the rest go gorge/lerk/skulk. Then you have two onos to work with and it's pretty easy to wipe out an entire team at that point.
Total blasphemy of balance.
[EDIT]
To try and be helpful:
1) scale hp/armor for the onos with hive numbers.
2) disable smash before second hive
3) disable impale knockdown before second hive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally agree. Except i would take away impale's knockdown since smash does the same thing, plus i HATE being knocked down by an already OP creature just to die on my back :(
Edit* Horrible grammar error.
Edit, tried it myself with some teammates, we could go triple onos at the 8 minute mark on mineshaft. Though I doubt it wouldn't be possible on any other map, it'd only take maybe a few minutes extra. There's very little reason NOT to save the res and go for onos currently, going lerk or fade is just a waste of time if you want a sure win.
Had the same experiences. God forbid the one onos catch your team away and knock out the power node lol
gonna have to agree with this whole thread.
scale his HP/armor with the # of hives, and don't give him smash until hive 3, unless you want to make the lerk's BB a useless midgame tactic, again?
I thought it was this fast. Thank you for the number crunch.