<!--quoteo(post=1917987:date=Mar 26 2012, 07:58 AM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Mar 26 2012, 07:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My take on this is simply:
remove stun from gore perhaps lower the health/armor of a hive 1 onos.
Then we can test again and readapt if needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Killing an onos is easy, just block him with some armouries when he flees. The tactics from NS1 work very well in NS2.
We had 3 onos after 9 or so min to fight of. They all died in around 2mins, because I blocked them with armouries or a player did it.
Sprint away if an onos want's to kill you and run in Cyrcles, they will have probs hitting you and your teammates can shoot it, as soon as he flees empty all your guns in the onos an hunt him. You sprint faster than an onos for around 5s, because he needs time to get momentum.
If you see an onos on the map, try to get to his escape route and intercept him when he tries to flee. GL are the best to DMG an onos because he has hidearmor 4, that means every hit gets reduced by 4 DMG points.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1918038:date=Mar 26 2012, 08:17 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Mar 26 2012, 08:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Killing an onos is easy, just block him with some armouries when he flees. The tactics from NS1 work very well in NS2.
We had 3 onos after 9 or so min to fight of. They all died in around 2mins, because I blocked them with armouries or a player did it.
Sprint away if an onos want's to kill you and run in Cyrcles, they will have probs hitting you and your teammates can shoot it, as soon as he flees empty all your guns in the onos an hunt him. You sprint faster than an onos for around 5s, because he needs time to get momentum.
If you see an onos on the map, try to get to his escape route and intercept him when he tries to flee. GL are the best to DMG an onos because he has hidearmor 4, that means every hit gets reduced by 4 DMG points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
he has 6 hide armor, which just underlines what you said: use GLs to kill him, and later the minigun once it's in game (since it will deal heavy damage and drain his armor fast). that's a neat strategy using armories to block his path, but im not sure that is intended. in ns1 structures were in "ghost" mode and vanish when an alien touches them and only when a marine starts building they become solid.
I agree it shouldnt happen. I hope the ghost building system comes back into play like NS1. Robo Factories are even worse lol if you have the extra res :P
<!--quoteo(post=1918042:date=Mar 26 2012, 08:32 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Mar 26 2012, 08:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->he has 6 hide armor, which just underlines what you said: use GLs to kill him, and later the minigun once it's in game (since it will deal heavy damage and drain his armor fast).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hide armor is fine and good but there really needs to be an intuitive way for marines to tell that their LMGs are having minimal effect. Currently there's simply no way to know other than reading the forums - even the Onos player probably doesn't know about it. There should be a different sound/visual effect IMO, something that communicates to the marine that their bullets aren't doing much damage. For example, make it so you can hear your bullets ricocheting off him or something.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I thought Onos at Hive 1 was a bug. An error in code. And thus, next patch, none of these ideas will be implemented, as Onos will be tied to 2nd hive.
Whoever says then 3rd hive is useless, has probably only played marines. They don't realise to get 3 upgrades, you need 3 hives, to get all the abilities, shift, crag and shade, requires 3 hives.
Seriously, a bug was introduced, and you call it the worst game design in history and stupidly broken. No, it's a BUG. Next patch will FIX THE BUG. So now I guess the conversation on amending 1 hive onos can cease? As it is obvious from the dev release comments he is not supposed to be available until hive 2.
<!--quoteo(post=1918053:date=Mar 26 2012, 06:13 AM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Mar 26 2012, 06:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918053"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->blocking onos with structures does do wonders but i feel like it's cheesing the system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1918069:date=Mar 26 2012, 09:49 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 26 2012, 09:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NSHD said it was intended. I find it hard to believe they'd overlook a bug like this in the many test games they've had.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not a bug, but to prevent it requires a new feature be implemented like ghost structures.
Edit: Nevermind, thought you meant the armory blocking.
<!--quoteo(post=1918061:date=Mar 26 2012, 04:34 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Mar 26 2012, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918061"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought Onos at Hive 1 was a bug. An error in code. And thus, next patch, none of these ideas will be implemented, as Onos will be tied to 2nd hive.
Whoever says then 3rd hive is useless, has probably only played marines. They don't realise to get 3 upgrades, you need 3 hives, to get all the abilities, shift, crag and shade, requires 3 hives.
Seriously, a bug was introduced, and you call it the worst game design in history and stupidly broken. No, it's a BUG. Next patch will FIX THE BUG. So now I guess the conversation on amending 1 hive onos can cease? As it is obvious from the dev release comments he is not supposed to be available until hive 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where have they said that it's a bug? You'd think something like this would be noticed instantly in their internal playtests. I'm aware that the patchlog says "onos on hive 2", but that could be a mistake also, since it also says "unchained alien lifeforms from hives", which would mean there are no hive requirements at all. The lifeforms wouldn't be unchained if the onos required 2 hives.
I really liked an idea given on page 3 about the onos also costing TRes. What if the alien commander had to use a drifter to build a giant egg which a player whom wants to go onos has to enter before they can evolve?
That way there can be two mitigating factors delaying oni appearing and also remove the sillyness of oni appearing out of eggs 1/4 their size and maybe even make it a bit tenser to evolve to onos (the big egg being a target for marine hive campers).
<!--quoteo(post=1918042:date=Mar 26 2012, 02:32 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Mar 26 2012, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->he has 6 hide armor, which just underlines what you said: use GLs to kill him, and later the minigun once it's in game (since it will deal heavy damage and drain his armor fast). that's a neat strategy using armories to block his path, but im not sure that is intended. in ns1 structures were in "ghost" mode and vanish when an alien touches them and only when a marine starts building they become solid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh hidearmor 6 thats alot. Even the ghost structures could block an onos for atleast 1s because he needed to attack it, thats enough in NS2 to atleast drop the onoses momentum, so that marines can catch up with sprint :-). Btw hope the gosth structure will get a comeback.
Hive 2 can go up @5-7 minutes. Onos still come out 7-10 minutes in this scenario. This is still broken.
Onos need a drastic reduction in health and armor for prematurely hatching them (Maybe 50%/80%/100% per hive). They also need their abilities toned down just like fades. Fades are meant to be a tier 2 lifeform so in tier 1, they're missing their blink. This makes a fade risky to push before a second hive is up. That's how onos should be with third hives. Disable every onos ability except for his anti-infantry attack and remove the knockdown from it. Onos regains these abilities at hive 3.
<!--quoteo(post=1918094:date=Mar 26 2012, 03:32 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 26 2012, 03:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onos tied to hive 2 does not fix the problem.
Hive 2 can go up @5-7 minutes. Onos still come out 7-10 minutes in this scenario. This is still broken.
Onos need a drastic reduction in health and armor for prematurely hatching them (Maybe 50%/80%/100% per hive). They also need their abilities toned down just like fades. Fades are meant to be a tier 2 lifeform so in tier 1, they're missing their blink. This makes a fade risky to push before a second hive is up. That's how onos should be with third hives. Disable every onos ability except for his anti-infantry attack and remove the knockdown from it. Onos regains these abilities at hive 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably the 4th wise person to say the same thing. Hopefully this happens as it is easy to implement (i think? lol) and requires nothing new.
<!--quoteo(post=1918094:date=Mar 26 2012, 11:32 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 26 2012, 11:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onos tied to hive 2 does not fix the problem.
Hive 2 can go up @5-7 minutes. Onos still come out 7-10 minutes in this scenario. This is still broken.
Onos need a drastic reduction in health and armor for prematurely hatching them (Maybe 50%/80%/100% per hive). They also need their abilities toned down just like fades. Fades are meant to be a tier 2 lifeform so in tier 1, they're missing their blink. This makes a fade risky to push before a second hive is up. That's how onos should be with third hives. Disable every onos ability except for his anti-infantry attack and remove the knockdown from it. Onos regains these abilities at hive 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think any critical abilities or lifeforms should be restricted until Hive 3. Aliens getting Hive 3 means they are already in a very dominant position, and that tech is likely to only be needed for ending the game. NS1 had Onoses at essentially full strength at Hive 2 and it worked fine. The Onos deserves better than being relegated to an endgame role like in 1.0. If there's a problem it's that the pace of marine tech is out of whack with aliens getting higher lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=1918117:date=Mar 26 2012, 10:21 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 26 2012, 10:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think any critical abilities or lifeforms should be restricted until Hive 3. Aliens getting Hive 3 means they are already in a very dominant position, and that tech is likely to only be needed for ending the game. NS1 had Onoses at essentially full strength at Hive 2 and it worked fine. The Onos deserves better than being relegated to an endgame role like in 1.0. If there's a problem it's that the pace of marine tech is out of whack with aliens getting higher lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 is nothing like NS1 in the setting you're comparing it to. NS1 did not use the Personal Resource model, the alien team loses absolutely NOTHING by waiting for an onos in NS2. ATM the 1 hive onos' are just lol-stomping back alien wins from games that were so far in the marines favor they should have surely won. The aliens don't deserve to get their endgame mega unit with absolutely 0 T-Rez investment, and at 7-10 minutes into the game no less. Atm the onos' are coming out when marine tech is still in the early/mid game stages and onos are extremely/impossibly difficult to deal with without late game marine tech like weapon upgrades or even JPs. And yet marines are still forced to get Armor 2 early so that you don't get rolled by 2-shotting fades. It would be the equivalent of rines getting their 3/3 JP GLs out at 10 minutes into the game without investing a single drop of T-res to get them. That's how dumb the balance is in b201.
<!--quoteo(post=1918117:date=Mar 26 2012, 01:21 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 26 2012, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think any critical abilities or lifeforms should be restricted until Hive 3. Aliens getting Hive 3 means they are already in a very dominant position, and that tech is likely to only be needed for ending the game. NS1 had Onoses at essentially full strength at Hive 2 and it worked fine. The Onos deserves better than being relegated to an endgame role like in 1.0. If there's a problem it's that the pace of marine tech is out of whack with aliens getting higher lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you honestly believe 2-3 nearly full strength onos coming out in 7-10 minutes is good? Have you played b201 at all?
<!--quoteo(post=1918123:date=Mar 26 2012, 12:33 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Mar 26 2012, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is nothing like NS1 in the setting you're comparing it to. NS1 did not use the Personal Resource model, the alien team loses absolutely NOTHING by waiting for an onos in NS2. ATM the 1 hive onos' are just lol-stomping back alien wins from games that were so far in the marines favor they should have surely won. The aliens don't deserve to get their endgame mega unit with absolutely 0 T-Rez investment, and at 7-10 minutes into the game no less. Atm the onos' are coming out when marine tech is still in the early/mid game stages and onos are extremely/impossibly difficult to deal with without late game marine tech like weapon upgrades or even JPs. And yet marines are still forced to get Armor 2 early so that you don't get rolled by 2-shotting fades. It would be the equivalent of rines getting their 3/3 JP GLs out at 10 minutes into the game without investing a single drop of T-res to get them. That's how dumb the balance is in b201.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS1 aliens did use the personal resource model, remember? Nothing stopped a player from going straight for Onos, and it was fine. It wasn't that big a deal because the NS1 Onos wasn't an endgame mega unit, marines had the means to combat them when they showed up. An Onos that wasn't supported by a strong infrastructure was a risky tactic that put the aliens in the hole if it died. I think the current Onos is simply overpowered for the midgame because it was originally balanced as a hive 3 mega unit and hasn't been appropriately nerfed. It needs to be made less inherently powerful and instead given a good Hive 3 ability to make it strong enough in the end game.
By P-res model I mean literal P-res, not T-res. Aliens in NS1 had their resources distributed per-player, but they did not have 2 separate kinds of resources. They were dependent on the same resource pools to play the meta game as they were to evolve into higher lifeforms. It is not the same.
One thing to take away from 201 is that resource costs aren't the important thing in moving tech around, making things 'faster' or 'slower' etc. What matters is the timings players figure out. Like the "6 minute hive" in b200, the "7 minute onos" in b210 and so on. In Starcraft you get things like the "4 warpgate push at 6:30", and the same concept applies in NS2. When you change tech trees, you need to ensure that the most polarized strategies do not become too easy to assemble <i>quickly</i>.
If there are barely any incentives for aliens in the field to spend pres early in the game, it's going to be hard to balance onos timings around pres flow without busting everything else.
To me, it's almost as obnoxious how fast marines can have jetpacks and grenades if they want, but that takes a lot more skill to win with than onos so it isn't being given the attention it needs yet. The new 'fast paced game' probably has a lot of issues lurking in it that players haven't discovered yet..
unchained fade and onos was a wise decision. It just balance requirements ... as marines do need only one com chair for whole tech tree, why not one hive for all classes?
Unfortunately incl. this change there should be introduced mini-gun as oppose to Onos. Single mini-gun wielding for marines for about 50Pres should be enough to balance late (a lot of resources) game.
Because now the whole marine team (about 9 players, no matter what gun they wield) are not able to kill two sync. onoses attaching CC ... They just run into base .. keep hitting CC ... and game is at the end.
<!--quoteo(post=1918315:date=Mar 27 2012, 09:20 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 27 2012, 09:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's hardly arguing, everyone agrees that in the current state things are just broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I don't agree! I think it was a wise decision by the DEVs. If you had a couple or more marines that spend 150 p-res between them on their gear (inc armor upgrades) marines can easily take out a hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1918537:date=Mar 27 2012, 10:06 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Mar 27 2012, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no such thing as onos in the early game. No one starts out with 75 PRes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That depends when you define things like "early" "mid" and "late."
I generally think of early game before second hive, or start to around 7 or 8 minutes. Then I think of mid game typically after second hive goes up or is killed, usually 8 - 15 minutes. Then late game is after that. When full tech is out, probably ~25 minutes typically, I think of as end game.
But these are all just arbitrary timings usually based on in game circumstances. If both teams are killing lots of RTs, you can be stuck in early game for 10 or 12 minutes. If both sides are failing their attacks or defending well, then you can hit end game in 15 or 20 minutes.
Nearly full strength onos are coming out in 7-10 minutes currently. That's closer to early game than anything else, imo. And onos are balanced around being an end game unit. Next patch should hopefully reduce the power of hive 1 and 2 onos to the point where an early onos is comparably weak to a late onos. Much like hive 1 fade is weak compared to hive 2 fade.
<!--quoteo(post=1918551:date=Mar 27 2012, 01:58 PM:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles @ Mar 27 2012, 01:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, I don't agree! I think it was a wise decision by the DEVs. If you had a couple or more marines that spend 150 p-res between them on their gear (inc armor upgrades) marines can easily take out a hive.
Restrictions on lifeforms are ######<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not many are saying restrict life forms. I am surely not, But the Onos needs to be toned down a lot.
<!--quoteo(post=1918606:date=Mar 27 2012, 08:47 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 27 2012, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not many are saying restrict life forms. I am surely not, But the Onos needs to be toned down a lot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think dumping the annoying knock-down on marines would help towards that end, as they could continue shooting it even while being attacked.
Comments
remove stun from gore
perhaps lower the health/armor of a hive 1 onos.
Then we can test again and readapt if needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly
The tactics from NS1 work very well in NS2.
We had 3 onos after 9 or so min to fight of. They all died in around 2mins, because I blocked them with armouries or a player did it.
Sprint away if an onos want's to kill you and run in Cyrcles, they will have probs hitting you and your teammates can shoot it, as soon as he flees empty all your guns in the onos an hunt him. You sprint faster than an onos for around 5s, because he needs time to get momentum.
If you see an onos on the map, try to get to his escape route and intercept him when he tries to flee.
GL are the best to DMG an onos because he has hidearmor 4, that means every hit gets reduced by 4 DMG points.
The tactics from NS1 work very well in NS2.
We had 3 onos after 9 or so min to fight of. They all died in around 2mins, because I blocked them with armouries or a player did it.
Sprint away if an onos want's to kill you and run in Cyrcles, they will have probs hitting you and your teammates can shoot it, as soon as he flees empty all your guns in the onos an hunt him. You sprint faster than an onos for around 5s, because he needs time to get momentum.
If you see an onos on the map, try to get to his escape route and intercept him when he tries to flee.
GL are the best to DMG an onos because he has hidearmor 4, that means every hit gets reduced by 4 DMG points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
he has 6 hide armor, which just underlines what you said: use GLs to kill him, and later the minigun once it's in game (since it will deal heavy damage and drain his armor fast). that's a neat strategy using armories to block his path, but im not sure that is intended. in ns1 structures were in "ghost" mode and vanish when an alien touches them and only when a marine starts building they become solid.
Hide armor is fine and good but there really needs to be an intuitive way for marines to tell that their LMGs are having minimal effect. Currently there's simply no way to know other than reading the forums - even the Onos player probably doesn't know about it. There should be a different sound/visual effect IMO, something that communicates to the marine that their bullets aren't doing much damage. For example, make it so you can hear your bullets ricocheting off him or something.
Whoever says then 3rd hive is useless, has probably only played marines. They don't realise to get 3 upgrades, you need 3 hives, to get all the abilities, shift, crag and shade, requires 3 hives.
Seriously, a bug was introduced, and you call it the worst game design in history and stupidly broken. No, it's a BUG. Next patch will FIX THE BUG. So now I guess the conversation on amending 1 hive onos can cease? As it is obvious from the dev release comments he is not supposed to be available until hive 2.
That's complete cheese.
It's not a bug, but to prevent it requires a new feature be implemented like ghost structures.
Edit: Nevermind, thought you meant the armory blocking.
Whoever says then 3rd hive is useless, has probably only played marines. They don't realise to get 3 upgrades, you need 3 hives, to get all the abilities, shift, crag and shade, requires 3 hives.
Seriously, a bug was introduced, and you call it the worst game design in history and stupidly broken. No, it's a BUG. Next patch will FIX THE BUG. So now I guess the conversation on amending 1 hive onos can cease? As it is obvious from the dev release comments he is not supposed to be available until hive 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where have they said that it's a bug? You'd think something like this would be noticed instantly in their internal playtests. I'm aware that the patchlog says "onos on hive 2", but that could be a mistake also, since it also says "unchained alien lifeforms from hives", which would mean there are no hive requirements at all. The lifeforms wouldn't be unchained if the onos required 2 hives.
That way there can be two mitigating factors delaying oni appearing and also remove the sillyness of oni appearing out of eggs 1/4 their size and maybe even make it a bit tenser to evolve to onos (the big egg being a target for marine hive campers).
Uh hidearmor 6 thats alot. Even the ghost structures could block an onos for atleast 1s because he needed to attack it, thats enough in NS2 to atleast drop the onoses momentum, so that marines can catch up with sprint :-).
Btw hope the gosth structure will get a comeback.
Hive 2 can go up @5-7 minutes. Onos still come out 7-10 minutes in this scenario. This is still broken.
Onos need a drastic reduction in health and armor for prematurely hatching them (Maybe 50%/80%/100% per hive). They also need their abilities toned down just like fades. Fades are meant to be a tier 2 lifeform so in tier 1, they're missing their blink. This makes a fade risky to push before a second hive is up. That's how onos should be with third hives. Disable every onos ability except for his anti-infantry attack and remove the knockdown from it. Onos regains these abilities at hive 3.
Hive 2 can go up @5-7 minutes. Onos still come out 7-10 minutes in this scenario. This is still broken.
Onos need a drastic reduction in health and armor for prematurely hatching them (Maybe 50%/80%/100% per hive). They also need their abilities toned down just like fades. Fades are meant to be a tier 2 lifeform so in tier 1, they're missing their blink. This makes a fade risky to push before a second hive is up. That's how onos should be with third hives. Disable every onos ability except for his anti-infantry attack and remove the knockdown from it. Onos regains these abilities at hive 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably the 4th wise person to say the same thing. Hopefully this happens as it is easy to implement (i think? lol) and requires nothing new.
Hive 2 can go up @5-7 minutes. Onos still come out 7-10 minutes in this scenario. This is still broken.
Onos need a drastic reduction in health and armor for prematurely hatching them (Maybe 50%/80%/100% per hive). They also need their abilities toned down just like fades. Fades are meant to be a tier 2 lifeform so in tier 1, they're missing their blink. This makes a fade risky to push before a second hive is up. That's how onos should be with third hives. Disable every onos ability except for his anti-infantry attack and remove the knockdown from it. Onos regains these abilities at hive 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think any critical abilities or lifeforms should be restricted until Hive 3. Aliens getting Hive 3 means they are already in a very dominant position, and that tech is likely to only be needed for ending the game. NS1 had Onoses at essentially full strength at Hive 2 and it worked fine. The Onos deserves better than being relegated to an endgame role like in 1.0. If there's a problem it's that the pace of marine tech is out of whack with aliens getting higher lifeforms.
NS2 is nothing like NS1 in the setting you're comparing it to. NS1 did not use the Personal Resource model, the alien team loses absolutely NOTHING by waiting for an onos in NS2. ATM the 1 hive onos' are just lol-stomping back alien wins from games that were so far in the marines favor they should have surely won. The aliens don't deserve to get their endgame mega unit with absolutely 0 T-Rez investment, and at 7-10 minutes into the game no less. Atm the onos' are coming out when marine tech is still in the early/mid game stages and onos are extremely/impossibly difficult to deal with without late game marine tech like weapon upgrades or even JPs. And yet marines are still forced to get Armor 2 early so that you don't get rolled by 2-shotting fades. It would be the equivalent of rines getting their 3/3 JP GLs out at 10 minutes into the game without investing a single drop of T-res to get them. That's how dumb the balance is in b201.
Do you honestly believe 2-3 nearly full strength onos coming out in 7-10 minutes is good? Have you played b201 at all?
NS1 aliens did use the personal resource model, remember? Nothing stopped a player from going straight for Onos, and it was fine. It wasn't that big a deal because the NS1 Onos wasn't an endgame mega unit, marines had the means to combat them when they showed up. An Onos that wasn't supported by a strong infrastructure was a risky tactic that put the aliens in the hole if it died. I think the current Onos is simply overpowered for the midgame because it was originally balanced as a hive 3 mega unit and hasn't been appropriately nerfed. It needs to be made less inherently powerful and instead given a good Hive 3 ability to make it strong enough in the end game.
If there are barely any incentives for aliens in the field to spend pres early in the game, it's going to be hard to balance onos timings around pres flow without busting everything else.
To me, it's almost as obnoxious how fast marines can have jetpacks and grenades if they want, but that takes a lot more skill to win with than onos so it isn't being given the attention it needs yet. The new 'fast paced game' probably has a lot of issues lurking in it that players haven't discovered yet..
Unfortunately incl. this change there should be introduced mini-gun as oppose to Onos.
Single mini-gun wielding for marines for about 50Pres should be enough to balance late (a lot of resources) game.
Because now the whole marine team (about 9 players, no matter what gun they wield) are not able to kill two sync. onoses attaching CC ... They just run into base .. keep hitting CC ... and game is at the end.
infact they attack so well they can chase a skulk up a wall :p
would love a pic of macs vs onos
No one starts out with 75 PRes.
No, I don't agree!
I think it was a wise decision by the DEVs.
If you had a couple or more marines that spend 150 p-res between them on their gear (inc armor upgrades) marines can easily take out a hive.
Restrictions on lifeforms are ######
No one starts out with 75 PRes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That depends when you define things like "early" "mid" and "late."
I generally think of early game before second hive, or start to around 7 or 8 minutes. Then I think of mid game typically after second hive goes up or is killed, usually 8 - 15 minutes. Then late game is after that. When full tech is out, probably ~25 minutes typically, I think of as end game.
But these are all just arbitrary timings usually based on in game circumstances. If both teams are killing lots of RTs, you can be stuck in early game for 10 or 12 minutes. If both sides are failing their attacks or defending well, then you can hit end game in 15 or 20 minutes.
Nearly full strength onos are coming out in 7-10 minutes currently. That's closer to early game than anything else, imo. And onos are balanced around being an end game unit. Next patch should hopefully reduce the power of hive 1 and 2 onos to the point where an early onos is comparably weak to a late onos. Much like hive 1 fade is weak compared to hive 2 fade.
I think it was a wise decision by the DEVs.
If you had a couple or more marines that spend 150 p-res between them on their gear (inc armor upgrades) marines can easily take out a hive.
Restrictions on lifeforms are ######<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not many are saying restrict life forms. I am surely not, But the Onos needs to be toned down a lot.
I think dumping the annoying knock-down on marines would help towards that end, as they could continue shooting it even while being attacked.