I'm surprised after 8 pages people still don't understand the simpleness of this issue.
Kills are good. Deaths are bad.
KDR is simply good divided by bad. Thus higher KDR is better than lower KDR.
Now the impact of KDR on winning or losing is the only debatable thing here. Kills do not win games, but they sure do help. Same with how dying does not lose games, but it surely doesn't help you win. Thus, as a very general trend, more killing and less dying throughout the course of the game is generally good.
Some of the counter arguments seem to single out specific scenarios where high kill, low death players don't help the team. But this is just a made up example, much like saying high kill, low death players always help their team. You're looking at one instance which supports your opinion while ignoring everything else.
Generally, high KDR players are more skilled and are doing more to help their team win. Not always, but usually. Special exceptions to things like gorges and commanders, obviously. KDR is just one metric to evaluate what is happening in a game. It's only a small part of the story, but arguing that high KDR isn't helping you win is completely nonsensical.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1916434:date=Mar 22 2012, 02:58 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 22 2012, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I think this thread was trying to show ..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They are complementary, one lends to the other. In any case, the stereotyping has no place, and is just shy of name calling for all those that disagree with the other's point of view. This is especially the case when no one has fulfilled that supposed stereotype in this thread - its like arguing vehemently against something that isn't there..
I aim to have the highest death's out of both teams. Usually I can stack my team's death count, and it doesnt even match mine. To measure this, I use the <b>BORING OR FUN RATIO</b>, or <b>BOFR</b>(say it like BOFFER). My <b>BOFR</b> is usually much higher than most people when I play NS2, due to running head first into suisidal situations laughing maniacally.
I could stay back, move slowly, be tactical, only move in group's, and get a high kill to death ratio, but then my boring or fun ratio would drop drastically.
So let's view how your <b>BOFR</b> goes up or down
<b>FUN</b>
-Running in first everytime out of your team -Running into a suisidally large group's of eneimes -Using weapons or moves that are extremely weak and were designed for other purposes, to kill people -Building setup's as commander which are random, risky and if fail will guanrantee your team lose's -Laughing when you kill someone or die -Getting an insanely large death count that no one should get -Hiding in very silly or stupid spots
These are just some of the things that will make your <b>BOFR</b> go up.
<b>BORING </b>
-Staying at the back of your team, so you never have to be in the thick of the battle -Running away when things aren't going well -Only attacking when you have the advantage of a team with you -Only using the absolute best weapons and moves to kill people -Abusing other people for not doing well -Building the same setup everytime as commander -Only focusing on getting a high kill count and low death count
These are just some of the things that will make your <b>BOFR</b> go down.
So now you can measure people's abilities using the <b>BORING OR FUN RATIO</b> to see just how good people are.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1916457:date=Mar 23 2012, 01:02 AM:name=GodofThunder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GodofThunder @ Mar 23 2012, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916457"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So now you can measure people's abilities using the <b>BORING OR FUN RATIO</b> to see just how good people are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hope you're joking.
<!--quoteo(post=1916452:date=Mar 23 2012, 01:52 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 23 2012, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916452"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are complementary, one lends to the other. In any case, the stereotyping has no place, and is just shy of name calling for all those that disagree with the other's point of view. This is especially the case when no one has fulfilled that supposed stereotype in this thread - its like arguing vehemently against something that isn't there..
edit: can we close this thread now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
internetexplorer PERFECTLY fits the stereotype. I mean ffs, when the one guy said he supported the team by building hydras, the first think he asked him was how many kills he got. I mean really...
There seems to be a divide in the discussion here.
KDR is useful in so far as that if you look at it you can tell which team is 'winning', which player is 'best' or how much a player has improved over time. The small scale ups-and-downs of these conditions aren't really important to the discussion. What really matters is that KDR is a composite <i>a posteriori</i> indicator that tells the player <b>nothing new</b> about the match you're playing. This is because there are no game mechanics which are based directly on how many kills or deaths each team has.
My point is that you should not be using KDR to make strategical or tactical decisions in any one game because the context of each kill or death outweighs the implicit bonuses to each player of staying alive or dying.
In contrast, a useful in-game indicator to be used strategically would be something like <b>ARC Threat Index</b>: A weighted index of how many ARCs the marines have and how close they are to your hives. This tells you <b>useful</b> information. KDR does not.
<!--quoteo(post=1916486:date=Mar 23 2012, 02:51 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Mar 23 2012, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point is that you should not be using KDR to make strategical or tactical decisions in any one game because the context of each kill or death outweighs the implicit bonuses to each player of staying alive or dying.
In contrast, a useful in-game indicator to be used strategically would be something like <b>ARC Threat Index</b>: A weighted index of how many ARCs the marines have and how close they are to your hives. This tells you <b>useful</b> information.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you could use the <b>BORING OR FUN RATIO</b> and you've got it sorted. Nothing is a greater measurement than that.
<!--quoteo(post=1916495:date=Mar 23 2012, 02:18 AM:name=GodofThunder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GodofThunder @ Mar 23 2012, 02:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916495"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or you could use the <b>BORING OR FUN RATIO</b> and you've got it sorted. Nothing is a greater measurement than that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1916499:date=Mar 22 2012, 06:21 PM:name=Ryne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryne @ Mar 22 2012, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Poor "real", 0-26.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> don't laugh, I'm sure he's contributing more to the team than the 70-3 fade
Thinking about it, I see far more people not using any of their personal resources on servers. That's probably the biggest indicator of being useful to the team as you can get from a scoreboard.
I have little respect for players who can't accept being killed now and then , ones who run away as soon as they're in slightest bit of danger, shows they're playing for all the wrong reasons, it also gets a bit pathetic after a while.
Anyway, I still think that the score has a potential of being a much better indicator, it just needs some tweaking. A player that didn't get nearly as many kills may have taken down way more RT's and other buildings, which in the end might have made him more useful to the team than the people that just focused on killing other players.
<!--quoteo(post=1916571:date=Mar 23 2012, 04:51 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 23 2012, 04:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See ironhorse, here's another that fits the stereotype.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What stereotype is that? That a high K/D ratio fade is a good indicator of a useful fade on a team?
That's what fades are for; killing marines and scaring their buddies away, preventing pushes, murdering solo rt axing heroes, and pressuring multiple spots at once. If they can't kill you, it forces them to spend res on upgrades and weapons.
A high K/D ratio works well in judging the skill of a fade player, but K/D isn't universal to everything. Compare skills accordingly. Even comparing a battle gorge vs one that spams hydras and heals pressured hives are different play styles, but both useful in their own time.
I think it's safe to say good players stand out when you play against them regardless of their K/D ratio, but for a fade, K/D ratio is very indicative of skill.
And to all who posted screen shots of one sided stomps; well done.
<!--quoteo(post=1916636:date=Mar 23 2012, 06:53 PM:name=#fps)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#fps @ Mar 23 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What stereotype is that? That a high K/D ratio fade is a good indicator of a useful fade on a team?
That's what fades are for; killing marines and scaring their buddies away, preventing pushes, murdering solo rt axing heroes, and pressuring multiple spots at once. If they can't kill you, it forces them to spend res on upgrades and weapons.
A high K/D ratio works well in judging the skill of a fade player, but K/D isn't universal to everything. Compare skills accordingly. Even comparing a battle gorge vs one that spams hydras and heals pressured hives are different play styles, but both useful in their own time.
I think it's safe to say good players stand out when you play against them regardless of their K/D ratio, but for a fade, K/D ratio is very indicative of skill.
And to all who posted screen shots of one sided stomps; well done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll ignore the fact that you have 100 res. Protip: when you intend on staying fade and you hit 50 res, suicide run an important structure. It costs you nothing but potentially costs the marines something.
Other than that, the thing that really bothers me is just the fact that you took a screenshot of the scoreboard. I am personally appalled by this, and to see the number of other people who also do it. It just makes me worried to be honest.
<!--quoteo(post=1916639:date=Mar 23 2012, 05:03 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 23 2012, 05:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll ignore the fact that you have 100 res. Protip: when you intend on staying fade and you hit 50 res, suicide run an important structure. It costs you nothing but potentially costs the marines something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Considering it's a beta (almost), I still feel it should be said that that's a terrible gameplay consequence (the carelessness with regards to your res and\or lifeform). Sure it's less of an issue if you lose your lifeform when you have the res to re-evolve, but the moment it degrades to the point of "meh, don't care", we've gone too far over the line and have started to venture into combat-territory again.
<!--quoteo(post=1916639:date=Mar 23 2012, 10:03 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 23 2012, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll ignore the fact that you have 100 res. Protip: when you intend on staying fade and you hit 50 res, suicide run an important structure. It costs you nothing but potentially costs the marines something.
Other than that, the thing that really bothers me is just the fact that you took a screenshot of the scoreboard. I am personally appalled by this, and to see the number of other people who also do it. It just makes me worried to be honest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pro-tip? If I'm at 100, doesn't the excess res go to team res for the comm? Wouldn't it make more sense to let a marine spawn, buy a weapon and jetpack, and then kill him to waste all that res? Or protecting a skulk/onos as they go in and destroy buildings? Pro-tip...
Point is, though K/D works for fades, it doesn't work for everything else, and you'll never be able to have one universal number/ratio to be able to judge all classes in NS2. Good players recognize good players, despite the score, as we all have our bad days.
<!--quoteo(post=1916438:date=Mar 23 2012, 01:05 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 23 2012, 01:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916438"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm surprised after 8 pages people still don't understand the simpleness of this issue.
Kills are good. Deaths are bad.
KDR is simply good divided by bad. Thus higher KDR is better than lower KDR.
Now the impact of KDR on winning or losing is the only debatable thing here. Kills do not win games, but they sure do help. Same with how dying does not lose games, but it surely doesn't help you win. Thus, as a very general trend, more killing and less dying throughout the course of the game is generally good.
Some of the counter arguments seem to single out specific scenarios where high kill, low death players don't help the team. But this is just a made up example, much like saying high kill, low death players always help their team. You're looking at one instance which supports your opinion while ignoring everything else.
Generally, high KDR players are more skilled and are doing more to help their team win. Not always, but usually. Special exceptions to things like gorges and commanders, obviously. KDR is just one metric to evaluate what is happening in a game. It's only a small part of the story, but arguing that high KDR isn't helping you win is completely nonsensical.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Everyone knows this. Nobody is saying KDR means nothing. But this thread is PAINFULLY obviously GLORIFYING KDR. Better yet, in a game in which, out of all the FPS games has perhaps the MOST ways to affect the course of a match via mediums other than the KDR. Glorifying KDR just makes everyone less interested in teamplay and more prone to have sh*tty games, if not by mechanics(which I think there are plenty) then at the very least by sheer attitude. End of.
Comments
Kills are good.
Deaths are bad.
KDR is simply good divided by bad. Thus higher KDR is better than lower KDR.
Now the impact of KDR on winning or losing is the only debatable thing here. Kills do not win games, but they sure do help. Same with how dying does not lose games, but it surely doesn't help you win. Thus, as a very general trend, more killing and less dying throughout the course of the game is generally good.
Some of the counter arguments seem to single out specific scenarios where high kill, low death players don't help the team. But this is just a made up example, much like saying high kill, low death players always help their team. You're looking at one instance which supports your opinion while ignoring everything else.
Generally, high KDR players are more skilled and are doing more to help their team win. Not always, but usually. Special exceptions to things like gorges and commanders, obviously. KDR is just one metric to evaluate what is happening in a game. It's only a small part of the story, but arguing that high KDR isn't helping you win is completely nonsensical.
They are complementary, one lends to the other.
In any case, the stereotyping has no place, and is just shy of name calling for all those that disagree with the other's point of view.
This is especially the case when no one has fulfilled that supposed stereotype in this thread - its like arguing vehemently against something that isn't there..
edit: can we close this thread now?
I could stay back, move slowly, be tactical, only move in group's, and get a high kill to death ratio, but then my boring or fun ratio would drop drastically.
So let's view how your <b>BOFR</b> goes up or down
<b>FUN</b>
-Running in first everytime out of your team
-Running into a suisidally large group's of eneimes
-Using weapons or moves that are extremely weak and were designed for other purposes, to kill people
-Building setup's as commander which are random, risky and if fail will guanrantee your team lose's
-Laughing when you kill someone or die
-Getting an insanely large death count that no one should get
-Hiding in very silly or stupid spots
These are just some of the things that will make your <b>BOFR</b> go up.
<b>BORING </b>
-Staying at the back of your team, so you never have to be in the thick of the battle
-Running away when things aren't going well
-Only attacking when you have the advantage of a team with you
-Only using the absolute best weapons and moves to kill people
-Abusing other people for not doing well
-Building the same setup everytime as commander
-Only focusing on getting a high kill count and low death count
These are just some of the things that will make your <b>BOFR</b> go down.
So now you can measure people's abilities using the <b>BORING OR FUN RATIO</b> to see just how good people are.
I hope you're joking.
I hope <b>you're</b> joking.
In any case, the stereotyping has no place, and is just shy of name calling for all those that disagree with the other's point of view.
This is especially the case when no one has fulfilled that supposed stereotype in this thread - its like arguing vehemently against something that isn't there..
edit: can we close this thread now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
internetexplorer PERFECTLY fits the stereotype. I mean ffs, when the one guy said he supported the team by building hydras, the first think he asked him was how many kills he got. I mean really...
KDR is useful in so far as that if you look at it you can tell which team is 'winning', which player is 'best' or how much a player has improved over time. The small scale ups-and-downs of these conditions aren't really important to the discussion. What really matters is that KDR is a composite <i>a posteriori</i> indicator that tells the player <b>nothing new</b> about the match you're playing. This is because there are no game mechanics which are based directly on how many kills or deaths each team has.
My point is that you should not be using KDR to make strategical or tactical decisions in any one game because the context of each kill or death outweighs the implicit bonuses to each player of staying alive or dying.
In contrast, a useful in-game indicator to be used strategically would be something like <b>ARC Threat Index</b>: A weighted index of how many ARCs the marines have and how close they are to your hives. This tells you <b>useful</b> information. KDR does not.
Some fades help though.
In contrast, a useful in-game indicator to be used strategically would be something like <b>ARC Threat Index</b>: A weighted index of how many ARCs the marines have and how close they are to your hives. This tells you <b>useful</b> information.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you could use the <b>BORING OR FUN RATIO</b> and you've got it sorted. Nothing is a greater measurement than that.
I will concede you that.
Some fades help though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Poor "real", 0-26.
don't laugh, I'm sure he's contributing more to the team than the 70-3 fade
Some fades help though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See ironhorse, here's another that fits the stereotype.
Some fades help though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, I've been waiting for this thread to devolve into this. And for the record, I vote for KDR. (isn't this what the thread is about?)
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Derp.
Anyway, I still think that the score has a potential of being a much better indicator, it just needs some tweaking. A player that didn't get nearly as many kills may have taken down way more RT's and other buildings, which in the end might have made him more useful to the team than the people that just focused on killing other players.
What stereotype is that? That a high K/D ratio fade is a good indicator of a useful fade on a team?
That's what fades are for; killing marines and scaring their buddies away, preventing pushes, murdering solo rt axing heroes, and pressuring multiple spots at once. If they can't kill you, it forces them to spend res on upgrades and weapons.
A high K/D ratio works well in judging the skill of a fade player, but K/D isn't universal to everything. Compare skills accordingly. Even comparing a battle gorge vs one that spams hydras and heals pressured hives are different play styles, but both useful in their own time.
I think it's safe to say good players stand out when you play against them regardless of their K/D ratio, but for a fade, K/D ratio is very indicative of skill.
And to all who posted screen shots of one sided stomps; well done.
That's what fades are for; killing marines and scaring their buddies away, preventing pushes, murdering solo rt axing heroes, and pressuring multiple spots at once. If they can't kill you, it forces them to spend res on upgrades and weapons.
A high K/D ratio works well in judging the skill of a fade player, but K/D isn't universal to everything. Compare skills accordingly. Even comparing a battle gorge vs one that spams hydras and heals pressured hives are different play styles, but both useful in their own time.
I think it's safe to say good players stand out when you play against them regardless of their K/D ratio, but for a fade, K/D ratio is very indicative of skill.
And to all who posted screen shots of one sided stomps; well done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll ignore the fact that you have 100 res. Protip: when you intend on staying fade and you hit 50 res, suicide run an important structure. It costs you nothing but potentially costs the marines something.
Other than that, the thing that really bothers me is just the fact that you took a screenshot of the scoreboard. I am personally appalled by this, and to see the number of other people who also do it. It just makes me worried to be honest.
Considering it's a beta (almost), I still feel it should be said that that's a terrible gameplay consequence (the carelessness with regards to your res and\or lifeform). Sure it's less of an issue if you lose your lifeform when you have the res to re-evolve, but the moment it degrades to the point of "meh, don't care", we've gone too far over the line and have started to venture into combat-territory again.
Other than that, the thing that really bothers me is just the fact that you took a screenshot of the scoreboard. I am personally appalled by this, and to see the number of other people who also do it. It just makes me worried to be honest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pro-tip? If I'm at 100, doesn't the excess res go to team res for the comm? Wouldn't it make more sense to let a marine spawn, buy a weapon and jetpack, and then kill him to waste all that res? Or protecting a skulk/onos as they go in and destroy buildings? Pro-tip...
Point is, though K/D works for fades, it doesn't work for everything else, and you'll never be able to have one universal number/ratio to be able to judge all classes in NS2. Good players recognize good players, despite the score, as we all have our bad days.
Kills are good.
Deaths are bad.
KDR is simply good divided by bad. Thus higher KDR is better than lower KDR.
Now the impact of KDR on winning or losing is the only debatable thing here. Kills do not win games, but they sure do help. Same with how dying does not lose games, but it surely doesn't help you win. Thus, as a very general trend, more killing and less dying throughout the course of the game is generally good.
Some of the counter arguments seem to single out specific scenarios where high kill, low death players don't help the team. But this is just a made up example, much like saying high kill, low death players always help their team. You're looking at one instance which supports your opinion while ignoring everything else.
Generally, high KDR players are more skilled and are doing more to help their team win. Not always, but usually. Special exceptions to things like gorges and commanders, obviously. KDR is just one metric to evaluate what is happening in a game. It's only a small part of the story, but arguing that high KDR isn't helping you win is completely nonsensical.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone knows this. Nobody is saying KDR means nothing. But this thread is PAINFULLY obviously GLORIFYING KDR. Better yet, in a game in which, out of all the FPS games has perhaps the MOST ways to affect the course of a match via mediums other than the KDR. Glorifying KDR just makes everyone less interested in teamplay and more prone to have sh*tty games, if not by mechanics(which I think there are plenty) then at the very least by sheer attitude. End of.