Could skulks use a res sink?
MuYeah
Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Members
Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Members
It bugs me that if I fancy playing skulk for a whole game then I have to put up with evolving to gorge and spamming hydras to use my accumulated PRes and being the lifeform that's meant to die a lot and having to sit in the respawn queue the whole game, hindering my team by using up all the communal eggs.
Does anyone else think it would be fitting to give the skulk an ability that costs PRes (similar in fashion to the gorge's hydra and mini-cyst) that makes a career skulk 'extra skulky'? Something that means you are actually choosing to play the class rather than just being the default alien. I know that you can choose whether to take upgrades or not but that doesn't really make me feel it, I dunno it could just be me.
I feel as though this could also help alleviate the problem with everyone evolving to the new unlocked lifeform at the same time.
On the other side of the coin, giving the default alien class a PRes ability would allow the marine team to pressure the opposition's resource reservoir by forcing emergency/panic use of the ability (similar to forcing med-packs by spore harassment). We already see people saving for lerk/fade/onos emergency evolve when a big push comes on and this will just further expand on the cool 'forcing' nature of marine strategy. It also means that the individual alien player must judge the best use of their resources in any given situation. If alien A is saving for an onos and has ~70 PRes and the marines are spotted rushing a hive, do they use the skulk ability a couple times and fade? Gorge and drop a hydra + fade? More hydras + lerk? Hydras everywhere and stay gorge?
The greater array of options it opens up make my brain whirr just by thinking about it!
Anyway, the only idea I can come up with off the top of my head that fits all three of the scouting, harassing and general front-line cannon-fodder roles of the skulk is to allow them to create a single egg in any location (floor, walls, ceiling and vents, like a mini-cyst) which that skulk will instantly re-spawn from on their death. Much like a mini-cyst, they would wither and die if not placed on/near infestation, imposing a time limit on risky forward locations. Just think of the possibilities opened up for skulking!!
They could even maintain their upgrades to reduce the tedium of picking them every time you re-spawn. Make it cost ~4 PRes or so and you're golden!
I don't have the time to attempt to mod it myself (sorry for throwing out ideas without backing them up with anything concrete) but I imagine someone could fashion a prototype via a hack of the egg code and mini-cyst code pretty quickly.
Ridiculous idea y/n?
Does anyone else think it would be fitting to give the skulk an ability that costs PRes (similar in fashion to the gorge's hydra and mini-cyst) that makes a career skulk 'extra skulky'? Something that means you are actually choosing to play the class rather than just being the default alien. I know that you can choose whether to take upgrades or not but that doesn't really make me feel it, I dunno it could just be me.
I feel as though this could also help alleviate the problem with everyone evolving to the new unlocked lifeform at the same time.
On the other side of the coin, giving the default alien class a PRes ability would allow the marine team to pressure the opposition's resource reservoir by forcing emergency/panic use of the ability (similar to forcing med-packs by spore harassment). We already see people saving for lerk/fade/onos emergency evolve when a big push comes on and this will just further expand on the cool 'forcing' nature of marine strategy. It also means that the individual alien player must judge the best use of their resources in any given situation. If alien A is saving for an onos and has ~70 PRes and the marines are spotted rushing a hive, do they use the skulk ability a couple times and fade? Gorge and drop a hydra + fade? More hydras + lerk? Hydras everywhere and stay gorge?
The greater array of options it opens up make my brain whirr just by thinking about it!
Anyway, the only idea I can come up with off the top of my head that fits all three of the scouting, harassing and general front-line cannon-fodder roles of the skulk is to allow them to create a single egg in any location (floor, walls, ceiling and vents, like a mini-cyst) which that skulk will instantly re-spawn from on their death. Much like a mini-cyst, they would wither and die if not placed on/near infestation, imposing a time limit on risky forward locations. Just think of the possibilities opened up for skulking!!
They could even maintain their upgrades to reduce the tedium of picking them every time you re-spawn. Make it cost ~4 PRes or so and you're golden!
I don't have the time to attempt to mod it myself (sorry for throwing out ideas without backing them up with anything concrete) but I imagine someone could fashion a prototype via a hack of the egg code and mini-cyst code pretty quickly.
Ridiculous idea y/n?
Comments
I mean lets face it, would you honestly sit there as a skulk when you know you could be helping your team more efficiently. Like dont get me wrong skulks are good, but they can only contribute so much in very few ways.
I've seen it stated that the NS2 skulk is meant to fulfill the role of soldier class more-so than in NS1. Even in NS1 skulks were invaluable at every stage of the game (silence/sof leap harass into mass xenocide) so I imagine the idea with NS2 is to make them even more relevant. It doesn't strike me as very good design to build a class that becomes pointless at X minutes/Y tech level.
I like this idea! But it could make Skulkrushs a nightmare of a never ending stream of RAWR! But if it where a weapon that unlocks on hive 2, this would really compliment the skulk in mid and late game AND the tactical options of the alien team. I would like to try it.
What you were saying about that shotgun blast to a skulk instead of a fade, yeah sure. But if you were a fade yourself its the same story- except you dont die.
But as a skulk, when you die thats res for the other team.
All in all its not a pointless class to play, but there will be times when other people are skulks and youre the only one with res.
As for pooling res into something else can cause balance issues, perhaps p/res will become more involved in alien commanding at a later stage.
I like this idea! But it could make Skulkrushs a nightmare of a never ending stream of RAWR! But if it where a weapon that unlocks on hive 2, this would really compliment the skulk in mid and late game AND the tactical options of the alien team. I would like to try it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I imagine that sort of skulk rush in the early game would be the NS2 equivalent of a 6pool. Hopefully it would deplete PRes quickly enough or the duration of the egg when not on infestation low enough to not be an issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1910933:date=Mar 7 2012, 12:20 PM:name=assbda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (assbda @ Mar 7 2012, 12:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im not saying they become pointless but there is a time in the game where they become almost obsolete, theyre expendable, just like pawns on a chess board. When you reach the other end you upgrade it to something better.
What you were saying about that shotgun blast to a skulk instead of a fade, yeah sure. But if you were a fade yourself its the same story- except you dont die.
But as a skulk, when you die thats res for the other team.
All in all its not a pointless class to play, but there will be times when other people are skulks and youre the only one with res.
As for pooling res into something else can cause balance issues, perhaps p/res will become more involved in alien commanding at a later stage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. The combination of vents and the mobility of skulks allow them to traverse maps like no other class. Who else bites down all the marine's res towers and scouts their tech?
The point of my idea is that rather than spending PRes on a different lifeform, skulk players have the option to use it on something of equivalent cost efficiency.
When it's 3 shotgunners defending an ARC, that one shotgun blast is the difference between a live fade and a dead fade. This isn't really disputable, it's a basic fact of team and class based FPS games. It works the other way, marines try and shoot the fade, allowing the skulk to get bites in and kill them. It's just team-work. See: TF2, NS1, etc.
I didn't mention pooling res, if you could point out the area in my original post that gave you the impression and I'll try and rephrase it.
The reason why is that the relative cost of getting an upgrade for the skulk is infinite (2/0) while it's only 6%, 4% and 2% for the lerk, fade and onos. Thus getting an upgrade for the skulk is very unfavorable. Taking lifetime into consideration make this even worse.
Upgrades was one of the thing that made skulk fun to play in ns1 by 1) adding diversity (celerity, silence, cloak, focus) and 2) allowing the skulk to scale better in late game.
The reason why is that the relative cost of getting an upgrade for the skulk is infinite (2/0) while it's only 6%, 4% and 2% for the lerk, fade and onos. Thus getting an upgrade for the skulk is very unfavorable. Taking lifetime into consideration make this even worse.
Upgrades was one of the thing that made skulk fun to play in ns1 by 1) adding diversity (celerity, silence, cloak, focus) and 2) allowing the skulk to scale better in late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. The upgrades are not really useful for the skulk right now. But please lets discuss the idea of a new weapon for the skulk, alowing him to drop one egg on infestation, where he respawns after death.
Or off infestation, it just dies slowly!
However you already stated that you dont especially like having to go gorge just to spend your res and instead had the idea to give skulks an ability to lay eggs, which im not too fond of.
And really the skulk is lowest of the low, alien team wise. And shouldent be anything more than a drone set to search and destroy.
Even tho your ideas may prevent the situation im about to explain, good luck trying to defend your hive vs a team of dual welding machine gun ha's as a skulk, its just not going to happen.
Ive honestly never played with anyone who complained about having alot of res tho :/
Im sure this is just one of those 'wait and see' issues that they will try to attend to.
Channeling Res into a more powerful attack may be cool, Something like focus in ns1. At the cost of 1/2 res per bite? Thats really all ive got.
The mechanics of the skulk stay the same. They are still search and destroy. The egg idea gets them back into the heat of the fray quicker, reducing the spawn queue boredom of the class that's meant to suicide rush. It really lends to the swarm feel, IMO.
Your point there about defending a hive vs a team of dual wielding exos as a skulk: At an equal tech level you have xenocide and it's very effective. Not to mention that if you're pitting a team of marines against a lone skulk they will obviously win. Even in NS1 (the closest experience we have with HA/exos) a lone skulk or two had a very good chance of killing a single HA with leap and a few upgrades unlocked.
The skulk as a class needs to fit into their own niche at the cost of PRes to differentiate it from just being the alien that you spawn as by default.
I do agree that the spawn queue needs a fix, but I think that it either should be a commander or a gorge ability to spawn eggs, and those would be prioritized for spawning compared to normal eggs (to make sure ppl actually spawn there).
About commander needing a way to use pres, I can think of one ability that really is needed and might be good for that. Energy creation. You select a hive (or maybe any structure with energy?) and can use x pres to create some energy, not sure what the ratio would be.
These are present in most RTS and also a good investment in party RPG.
The fact that I can spawn as marine and jump into the action late game without a gun upgrade
and be successful killing or help killing ....
makes this game very easy to pick up and play on the marine side.
The skulk has upgrades that help a bit....(my favorite right now is cloak)
But if he just spawns and the marine is in his base....LATE GAME...forget it.
I like rushing over and over again with skulk if the rest of the team is very gorge or lerk based, where they won't be using up eggs as much. Especially in mineshaft because against the average marine team currently, getting the third hive up in <10 minutes is pretty much a given. So I save up straight for onos.
I suppose the obvious question that has to be asked, in this situation, if you then upgrade to fade/onos etc but keep the same upgrades, should you be charged for the upgrades too? Otherwise it's a way to save on upgrade costs for the higher lifeforms.
I've already implemented celerity in my mod, as the code is already in place from the devs. It does make the skulk a lot better, but the biggest benefactor of celerity is the Onos :) The speed he gets up to with celerity is positively frightening!
Even tho your ideas may prevent the situation im about to explain, good luck trying to defend your hive vs a team of dual welding machine gun ha's as a skulk, its just not going to happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, the game should not be over for you, if you just lost all your res and are only able to play skulk in late game.
And no, the game should not calculable like a pure RTS. Because that is not fun for the players.
How long do you think will the game be played, if i can tell after the first minute, that the one who techs faster will win?
Sure, a fade should be better than a skulk. But not in a way, you can't compensate with skill.
Making the skulk useless in late game will generate much frustration and it kills the tactical possibilities.
In another threat we discuss the problem that everyone only wants to evolve to the best class and that this is boring.
Making the skulk useless in mid- and late-game will make this even worse.
He is NOT only a drone. He has a specific role like every class and weapon should have to make the game tactical deep and complex.
Skulks are incredibly powerful at all stages of the game. You just need to stick to your strengths as a skulk.
For instance I prefer to stay Skulk all the time, even in clan matches if I can get away with it (or die as a fade instantly). Not only can you be incredibly aggressive in harassing the marine team (controlling their movements to an extent, forcing them to play defensively) but you can also focus the largest threat on the other team. As a skulk you can (when played well) quickly close the distance and ambush specific targets before you die. This can have a huge impact on the ability of the marine team to be aggressive and control the game.
In many situations I have 100 res for long periods of the game. It really would help if there were res dumps that would support the team (other than hydras).
True, but meaningless.
<!--quoteo(post=1910938:date=Mar 7 2012, 07:34 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Mar 7 2012, 07:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thus getting an upgrade for the skulk is very unfavorable. Taking lifetime into consideration make this even worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Non-sequitur. The cost of the lifeform is irrelevant. The cost-benefit ratio of the upgrade is the added utility of getting the upgrade compared to not getting the upgrade, divided by the cost of the upgrade.
Skipping the spawn queue would be nice, especially for skulks who are constantly dying. Very powerful though, cannot cost the 2 res current upgrades do and should still require some egg time to evolve it.
About res sinks for skulks, I think skulks are basically fades anyway, so any skulk player should try the fade when they have spare res.
More Gorges = more Skulk respawning :D?
For instance I prefer to stay Skulk all the time, even in clan matches if I can get away with it (or die as a fade instantly). Not only can you be incredibly aggressive in harassing the marine team (controlling their movements to an extent, forcing them to play defensively) but you can also focus the largest threat on the other team. As a skulk you can (when played well) quickly close the distance and ambush specific targets before you die. This can have a huge impact on the ability of the marine team to be aggressive and control the game.
In many situations I have 100 res for long periods of the game. It really would help if there were res dumps that would support the team (other than hydras).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By having 100 res you are supporting the team, because they're getting your money.
As for the initial question for improving lategame-skulk, I think we should wait until the final chambers and upgrades are implemented.