<!--quoteo(post=1910545:date=Mar 6 2012, 12:57 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Mar 6 2012, 12:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the current system you will either have to nerf the weapons and lifeforms to be useless, or you will have to limit them somehow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? If aliens going fades immediately after hive 2 is OP and marines all picking up shotguns immediately is OP and marines picking up GLs immediately is OP... How is everything too powerful if it is all relative? You say everyone going lerk is potentially too powerful. That's mirrored by everyone going shotguns as too powerful. So if both sides are now all-in and too powerful, then they're balanced?
<!--quoteo(post=1910545:date=Mar 6 2012, 12:57 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Mar 6 2012, 12:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the current system you will either have to nerf the weapons and lifeforms to be useless, or you will have to limit them somehow. Alá NS1, or my suggestion to PRes, or something else that achieves the same(I can't think of anything else). I would not like it if they just reverted every single thing to work like NS1, then we might as well just go play that. But imagine the current system in a 16v16. In a game like that, the problems I have stated will be even worse(becomes worse with higher playernumbers). As suddenly popping most of the team with a lifeform or weapon, can overpower the opposite team very quickly. The problem is that it is too easy to get a full team of fades, it doesn't take a long time, even if you go lerk or gorge in the earlygame. Currently, in a 6v6 game, if you go two lerks, one gorge, three skulks in the earlygame. Then you get 3 fades instantly when the hive goes up, and the lerks can follow that lead pretty quickly. If my suggestion was in, you would most likely get one fade before the hive, and then pop more fades over the course of time. So even a full out lerkrush doesn't really punish the aliens, they can still get a full team of fades soon after the second hive is up. Same goes for a full shotgun equipped team. The timings of when the weapons and lifeforms first are seen in the game, fits really well. But the amount of lifeforms popping at those timings, are just too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't imagine this game in 16v16 for numerous reasons. Maps, performance, AOE spam, gorge heal spam, player collision, firing lanes, structure health. There are about 10 obvious problems that crop up before I feel like 16 fades immediately upon hive 2 would even warrant investigation.
If an alien goes lerk (-30 res + probably 2 for carapace or swarm), they will absolutely not be able to afford fade immediately when hive 2 goes up in a reasonable game. That's basically saying aliens would have 80 pres when hive 2 drops. That just doesn't happen in even games.
I still think that if you allow the enemy team to save up pres for a mass fade evolution then you're being beat. If half their team (1 gorge + 2 lerks) are already evolved, they won't be able to afford fades. You're going to have to deal with 2-3 fades at this point which, to me, is acceptable upon hive 2 completion.
swalk I still don't see the problem with an entire team being lerks, fades, shotguns, or whatever. It would only be a problem if the opposing team couldn't respond in kind...if the aliens go all fades then they have demonstrated a very high level of coordination. Only if the marines also demonstrate that level of teamwork by having everyone get shotguns and stick together do they deserve to hold their own in that situation. Also, if an entire team goes fades right away after 2nd hive that means that they didn't have any gorges and it took a while to get that second hive. It's very much a risk vs. reward scenario to have your entire team stack a life form or weapon, and to be honest I haven't seen it happen very much.
Would you say that this problem is more prominent in organized/competitive play? I think if that's the case it may explain why you are getting so much resistance to your ideas. Many of us just don't see the problem you are illustrating as anything but hypothetical theorycraft. Getting everyone on a public server to save up 50 res for a fade or getting them all to go lerk is like herding cats.
<!--quoteo(post=1910555:date=Mar 6 2012, 01:18 PM:name=Deity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deity @ Mar 6 2012, 01:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910555"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->swalk I still don't see the problem with an entire team being lerks, fades, shotguns, or whatever. It would only be a problem if the opposing team couldn't respond in kind...if the aliens go all fades then they have demonstrated a very high level of coordination. Only if the marines also demonstrate that level of teamwork by having everyone get shotguns and stick together do they deserve to hold their own in that situation. Also, if an entire team goes fades right away after 2nd hive that means that they didn't have any gorges and it took a while to get that second hive. It's very much a risk vs. reward scenario to have your entire team stack a life form or weapon, and to be honest I haven't seen it happen very much.
Would you say that this problem is more prominent in organized/competitive play? I think if that's the case it may explain why you are getting so much resistance to your ideas. Many of us just don't see the problem you are illustrating as anything but hypothetical theorycraft. Getting everyone on a public server to save up 50 res for a fade or getting them all to go lerk is like herding cats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In organized play, if marines let the aliens get away with using skulks to defend the second hive from shotguns, then marines got beat.
<!--quoteo(post=1910545:date=Mar 6 2012, 12:57 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Mar 6 2012, 12:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the current system you will either have to nerf the weapons and lifeforms to be useless, or you will have to limit them somehow. Alá NS1, or my suggestion to PRes, or something else that achieves the same(I can't think of anything else). I would not like it if they just reverted every single thing to work like NS1, then we might as well just go play that. But imagine the current system in a 16v16. In a game like that, the problems I have stated will be even worse(becomes worse with higher playernumbers). As suddenly popping most of the team with a lifeform or weapon, can overpower the opposite team very quickly. The problem is that it is too easy to get a full team of fades, it doesn't take a long time, even if you go lerk or gorge in the earlygame. Currently, in a 6v6 game, if you go two lerks, one gorge, three skulks in the earlygame. Then you get 3 fades instantly when the hive goes up, and the lerks can follow that lead pretty quickly. If my suggestion was in, you would most likely get one fade before the hive, and then pop more fades over the course of time. So even a full out lerkrush doesn't really punish the aliens, they can still get a full team of fades soon after the second hive is up. Same goes for a full shotgun equipped team. The timings of when the weapons and lifeforms first are seen in the game, fits really well. But the amount of lifeforms popping at those timings, are just too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats where the first problem lies in you imagining a 16v16 in the current system, its just not realistic in any universe at the moment for the reasons and more listed by GORGEous. Being able to prioritize issues is a skill not everyone can handle it.
I gotta agree with GORGEous he proves valid points. Can always count on really good players with their feedback. 16 v 16 you would have a lot of fades running around and theyre hard enough to kill. 3 fades is already dangerous enough imagine 5 or maybe 6 of them... Infact with just 1 fade early game a really good one can totally turn the tables around in a short period of time. With a low game IMO there would be less fades to be focused on and thus can easily turn the game around.
I've been thinking about the situation more. I believe in the risk-reward payoff scheme where if my whole team is greedy and you don't punish me, then you deserve to be at a disadvantage. I don't like how everyone's pres is uniform, which is some common ground that I think swalk and I agree on.
Brainstorming some ideas here: 1) Bringing back the kills = pres and halving pres income from RTs. Thus, if you get 0 kills it would take you twice as long for the same income. But if you get 2 pres per kill and had 10-15 kills before second hive, you would see fades at a similar time.
2) Pool together the team's pres income then distribute it based on score @100% +/- 25%. IE 3 player team earning 10 pres / minute total. In the current setup this would be ~3.33 pres per minute to each player. In 2)'s setup, this would be 125% for the top player, 100% for the middle player, 75% for the bottom player for 4.16, 3.33, 2.50 pres respectively. Other players would be scaled within the +/-25% based on their ranking. This staggers when lifeforms becoming available due to cost and rewards top players while not hurting low players much. A downside is that comms would suffer low pres gain.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1910555:date=Mar 6 2012, 07:18 PM:name=Deity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deity @ Mar 6 2012, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910555"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->swalk I still don't see the problem with an entire team being lerks, fades, shotguns, or whatever. It would only be a problem if the opposing team couldn't respond in kind...if the aliens go all fades then they have demonstrated a very high level of coordination. Only if the marines also demonstrate that level of teamwork by having everyone get shotguns and stick together do they deserve to hold their own in that situation. Also, if an entire team goes fades right away after 2nd hive that means that they didn't have any gorges and it took a while to get that second hive. It's very much a risk vs. reward scenario to have your entire team stack a life form or weapon, and to be honest I haven't seen it happen very much.
Would you say that this problem is more prominent in organized/competitive play? I think if that's the case it may explain why you are getting so much resistance to your ideas. Many of us just don't see the problem you are illustrating as anything but hypothetical theorycraft. Getting everyone on a public server to save up 50 res for a fade or getting them all to go lerk is like herding cats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is that it requires no coordination to get that full team of fades. You can <b>easily</b> get them, if you get the hive up. That <b>IS</b> the problem, and that is what sways the balance of NS2 mostly atm. Simply all evolving at the same time doesn't require ANY coordination at all, I don't see how you can say that. You can easily have someone go lerk in the earlygame, and then go fade after the hive is up, it's too easy to afford a full team of fades. Just like it's too high reward for the risk of buying a full team of shotguns.
I would really like to post a video of one of our games on summit, even if we do overcome these mass rushes. But the video really shows how easy it is to spam the lifeforms and still stay in the game of res and upgrades(the same goes for marine weapons). However, I wasn't the one recording it, so I have no control over when it will be uploaded.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1910553:date=Mar 6 2012, 01:16 PM:name=John Blackthorne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (John Blackthorne @ Mar 6 2012, 01:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like this idea as well Schimmel, perhaps it could be implemented with some of the other ideas listed so we could beta test it :D I could see it changing the game in a very good way, giving the game some more risk... you can never have enough risk~!!!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you can open up Player_Server.lua and add at line 224: self:SetResources(self:GetResources() - 1)
swalk, If you overcame one of those mass rushes then what exactly is the problem? That's what I'm failing to understand. Hopefully your video will help me out, but I am just not seeing this as a problem in public servers at all. I am of the belief that good games are developed for competitive play and not pubs though, which is why I'm trying to point out that you are talking specifically about competitive play, which many of us have no experience in.
Your last post especially makes it seems like you're talking specifically about a competitive environment, but you aren't clearly stating that. Getting everyone on a team to fade on a public server is impossible. Getting everyone to do it in a competitive environment is insanely easy. In competition however your opponents are also organized enough to spam shotguns to counter your fade spam, so it seems balanced to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1910537:date=Mar 6 2012, 01:31 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 6 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know about other people, but I don't buy the "IT'S NOT LIKE IT IS IN NS1 SO IT'S BAD" arguments. That's just nostalgia spouting crap.
Swalk makes some good points in the proliferation of high tech weapons / life forms immediately upon becoming available, but I think his solution (+2 res for x per x on the field) misses the point.
The best way to prevent everyone suddenly going fade at hive 2 is to make people want to spend pres on other lifeforms. Right now, gorges and lerks are clutch early game units. Your team is much more powerful if you have a gorge at first and second hive and a lerk or two to help harass. That's 3-4 players that won't be going fade. Typically this leaves 2-4 players in most pubs that will be going fade when hive 2 hits. What is wrong with this?
A team that saves all of their res throughout tier 1 in order to buy fades as soon as the second hive drops are taking a risk. They're intentionally under powering themselves early in order for a payoff later in the game. If the marines don't recognize this and punish the aliens via RT kills or a hive push, then the marines have simply been out played.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I repeat, if marines let the aliens get away with saving for their entire team to immediately fade upon hive 2 drop, then marines have been out played.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Now on to marines. I think shotgun "spam" is an over exaggerated issue. This last build, 199, has significantly reduced the power of shotguns. Shotguns are an investment every time you pick them up. If your entire team picks up a shotgun and attacks then you've taken a huge risk. At most, these shotgun pushes have 1 or 2 go's before marines run out of pres. And if you fail your push(s), then the marines are at a serious disadvantage with no shotguns/welders/mines on the field. This is exactly the same as if everyone on the alien team go lerk or gorge and rush. It's a risk that potentially sacrifices strength later on for strength now.
What I think should be focused on is the skill less nature of GLs and flame throwers. I also think shotguns could use a small 5-10 bump in cost to delay their rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is partly my point. Ns2 is already going into diffrent direction from ns1. The devs made the ability to mass the same weapon/lifeform into the core mechanics of the game so this isn't something that is going to change. Numbers and abilities will need to be adjusted to make this work, we don't need to create a patch(aka swalk's mechanics) to change it since this is the direction the devs are going for(they could have kept the ns1 system if they wanted to have less weapons/lifeforms in the game). The focus should be on making it work. If it becomes apparent that marines/aliens are able to go adv weapons/lifeforms to easiliy(even low on rts) then the res flow or the cost could be adjusted. We have to remember that it took years for ns1 to manage to get to its current form, will probably take ns2 similar time. -- When we start talking about changes in the res system we should be very careful because it will affect way to many things. It should only be done if it's not enough to adjust the numbers (like the pres cost of shotguns). I don't like the idea of adding kill on res back into the game. It worked very will in ns1 but does not fit the ns2 pres system very well. -- Btw Swalk, about this comment: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just like it's too high reward for the risk of buying a full team of shotguns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We should be addressing the risk factor of getting so many shotguns. Shotgun rushes in ns1 right off the bat had very high chance of success even vs teams that were allot better, this was still very risky and marines were left in a very bad position if it failed. This should be similar in ns2, if everyone goes for shotguns then there should be a risk factor involved if it fails, such as not affording more weapons right away.
Swalks comments should not be ignored though, the game does need some adjustment and he does give valid points. I just don't think this is the right way to do it.
is there any way for Gorges to get more res once they are transformed? if not I want to see ways for that to be possible, like killing an enemy as a gorge should give them a lot of personal res or something, because as it stands you can gorge and then drop like 1-2 hydras and then you have nothing to do but wait around for 10 minutes for enough res to do anything else
<!--quoteo(post=1910587:date=Mar 6 2012, 02:07 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Mar 6 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you can open up Player_Server.lua and add at line 224: self:SetResources(self:GetResources() - 1)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you Schimmel I'll try it out and get back to you after testing.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited March 2012
@Schimmel: <b>Never ever</b> punish a player. Reward him for good behaviour or good play, but <b>never</b> punish him, unless you are <b>very very sure</b> that it is needed. I think any seasoned game designer would tell you that (not suggesting I'm a game designer). It will only cause frustration to further punish a player for being bad. He already knows he is bad and sees that he got killed. He doesn't need another disadvantage on top of that.
I see that swalk's suggestion has some problems, but I still think player scaling needs to be adressed. Probably the best solution would be to make all lifeforms and weapons in specific proportions necessary to win, which is <b>incredibly</b> hard to do, unless you integrate hard counters into the game, which would also make the game more frustrating. One further thing to make scaling work better would be to scale building HP with players, but that would also cause lots of confusion when player numbers fluctuate a lot, so it won't work either.
Frankly, I don't really see a solution to the player scaling problem. The game will always get unbalanced for higher player numbers, no matter what you do. The good thing is this will only happen on public servers, the bad thing is that it encourages team stacking, since a team acting as one unit can be devastating with high enough player numbers to kill a whole marine base in 10 seconds.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1910589:date=Mar 6 2012, 08:11 PM:name=Deity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deity @ Mar 6 2012, 08:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->swalk, If you overcame one of those mass rushes then what exactly is the problem? That's what I'm failing to understand. Hopefully your video will help me out, but I am just not seeing this as a problem in public servers at all. I am of the belief that good games are developed for competitive play and not pubs though, which is why I'm trying to point out that you are talking specifically about competitive play, which many of us have no experience in.
Your last post especially makes it seems like you're talking specifically about a competitive environment, but you aren't clearly stating that. Getting everyone on a team to fade on a public server is impossible. Getting everyone to do it in a competitive environment is insanely easy. In competition however your opponents are also organized enough to spam shotguns to counter your fade spam, so it seems balanced to me.
Hopefully your video will highlight the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would say that we overcame the rushes by having way better teamplay than the opposite team. But that doesn't change the fact of the BAM! situations i described earlier. Those situations are VERY often game-ending, we were lucky to survive and win the game. I'm not only talking about competetive play, it's also evident on publics, at times, when people play properly. On publics it might be alot less noticed, since not everyone might be watching their res, or watching when the hive is complete(fade).
A team full of shotguns is at a disadvantage against a team full of fades, even if the fades die in two shots, they can easily escape, especially when in numbers. Marines can't escape, aliens are the ones who decides when and where the battles takes place. Higher lifeforms = more hp = more devastating to the marines. That means that you can't make every lifeform just as effective, the high lifeforms will <b>always</b> be the most effective ones at killing marines. At the moment aliens and marines can all get lifeforms and weapons at the same point in the game, that creates the large imbalances/chokepoints/whatever you call it.
Hopefully Morty will put the video up soon, so you can see how easy and cheap these all-in strategies are. In the meantime you can look at <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116623" target="_blank">this match</a>(the same match, first map, ns2_turtle). Look at round 2, we are playing marines, and Archaea are playing aliens. Notice the amount of lifeforms we have to grind down to be able to win the game. Lerks, fades, bilegorges, and then as the grand finale, their whole team goes lerk. Then think of my suggestion, and how it would affect the game/reduce the spam. It would maybe prevent a fade or two, and prevent the full team lerk in the end. And marines weapon arsenal would be cut down on as well.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
i'm gonna have to agree with swalk on this one, the massing does cause chokepoints. it would be better if the Rock, Paper, Scissor system was implemented. think of TF2. heavy + medic is a winning combo but can still be countered by a spy. requiring combos to win in base seiges also encourages teamwork.
@MisterNubs: i believe you <b>completely </b>misunderstood my idea to a high degree. i'm not saying anything about softcap?? i'm saying it led me to ANOTHER idea. <!--quoteo(post=1910413:date=Mar 5 2012, 11:49 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Mar 5 2012, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A player that can't purchase a shotgun right away because someone else got it before them will just cause the player to wait a minute or two for the res. Meaning they're not doing anything productive while doing so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> thats what im saying, there is no more "waiting" for res. i absolutely abhor getting rewarded for simply "waiting in a corner" its boring for the player and its detrimental to the team that has 1 less player fighting. in my model, <b>Pres come only from teamwork related tasks that you <u>personally</u> assisted in, not from resource points. Resource points contribute only to TECH that you can't personally buy yourself.</b>
meaning that if you cant buy a shotgun like the other guy did, thats because you weren't a)building b) following waypoint orders c)welding d)staying in groups e)destroying buildings etc etc etc. half of these things already are recorded in game and give you a little +5 notification when you do them. wouldnt be hard to make them the main method of Pres income - it encourages proper teamwork and coordination through personal reward, which immediately goes right back into helping your team again.
this leads to the game play where the new guy joins mid game and theres not a lot to build or weld, right?.. well he can still follow orders and he can still stay in groups and he can still destroy buildings with that LMG of his. you essentially will always have a chance at earning your reward/new weapon as long as the game isn't ended.
there are multiple ways to implement it, from flat rate for contributing to a %, to a % based on the number of players etc., We must take into account scenarios where you would be building a structure for ANY amount of time(The last 2 seconds)and you still get credit, (or do you?) just as much as the guy who was holding E the whole time, because that other guy was probably following orders, running from base, covering you while you built, etc. (could be yet another teamwork action recorded, being NEAR the builder for X amount of time)
it can be tweaked but i believe it still solves that issue of everyone having similar amounts of Pres based simply on TIME.
For aliens this can be implemented when pheromones come into play, as well as "Saving" your comrade when he's low on health, to healspray, to destroying buildings, to infestation, to parasiting, to using spores when your teamates are nearby etc etc etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1910394:date=Mar 6 2012, 05:24 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 6 2012, 05:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910394"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->schimmel: that idea of yours also helps dissuade early skulk rushes! if your team failed, it would have major consequences besides eggs.
i like it! +1
@koruyo there were two different talks going on here, grissi and swalk talking about mass lifeforms /tech and swalk and I were discussing why i disagree with untying tech from the hive. (both were mentioned in the OP)
edit: contributing to that other topic,<b> i suggest Pres come only from teamwork related tasks that you personally assisted in, not from map control. map control contributes only to TECH.</b> Flayra once talked about something similar in the design log that got me thinking, on 8/29/2011 in concern to stalemates (turtling) "Give points incrementally when damaging structures, instead of only when it’s destroyed (encourages teamwork, but this is soft)." i think that building items and destroying items in the game that help the team along should go to the player, so that not everyone is able to purchase that shotgun - only those contributing to the teamwork the most. this could be simple buffs like being in a group of 3 or more for x time, or welding, or simply <i>hurting </i>the hive. the idea is not RFK its ResourcesForTeamwork, RFT. These things are already being pooled and recorded mostly anyhow, like when you see that +5 for building something.
Oh and it obviously not only helps stalemates, but also solves Mass Tech, increases teamwork significantly and scales with players!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1910628:date=Mar 6 2012, 08:14 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 6 2012, 08:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910628"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do like the idea. An even spread of Res guarantees what Swalk is talking about. More ups and downs of res would create enough of a gap that not everyone would be purchasing in that "surge". It is a soft fix and will help i think. Might even help give that extra incentive for pubbers to build stuff.
Even in the competitive scene the "base b*tch" would be rocking the first shotgun lol. Quite a change. Putting RpK back in the game might help further this along as well.
------
Another thing about this discussion is Shotguns themselves. They are the end all be all in weaponry and were only balanced out by HMGs. When talking about Tier 1 i like the shotgun and how you have to get it. There are so many choices as a comm in what to go for first: Phase Tech, MT, Weapons 1, Armor 1, Shotguns, Advanced Armory, another IP. It is a little overwhelming for me personally as a noob comm but i muddled through it (also was talking about RTs lol had to change the new name).
Problem is Alien side. Lerks are too fragile, skulks have movement issues (that are being worked on), and gorges blow through Pres like nothing which forces them to stay in their role. Skulks are bigger and a lot easier to hit as is the case with the lerks. Aliens get stomped before 2nd hive if comm'd correctly.
This is where i look to the competitive scene to see what is going one. People generally know what they are doing and what their options are. You still have your uber players but they can no longer off set a game by that huge a margin. How do competitive players deal with Hive 1? Rush Hive 2 and struggle till then?
edit* Another BIG problem is this game was balanced when marines lagged so bad they couldnt hit anything. Aliens were toned down.. well marines can AIM now lol... Tone it BACK. Feature complete will help too. Which will throw everything else out of whack. Feature complete before balance please =)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems another thread is hitting this same topic. Got confused where i was posting for a second lol. So to not repeat here it is.
<!--quoteo(post=1910621:date=Mar 6 2012, 04:50 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Mar 6 2012, 04:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would say that we overcame the rushes by having way better teamplay than the opposite team. But that doesn't change the fact of the BAM! situations i described earlier. Those situations are VERY often game-ending, we were lucky to survive and win the game. I'm not only talking about competetive play, it's also evident on publics, at times, when people play properly. On publics it might be alot less noticed, since not everyone might be watching their res, or watching when the hive is complete(fade).
A team full of shotguns is at a disadvantage against a team full of fades, even if the fades die in two shots, they can easily escape, especially when in numbers. Marines can't escape, aliens are the ones who decides when and where the battles takes place. Higher lifeforms = more hp = more devastating to the marines. That means that you can't make every lifeform just as effective, the high lifeforms will <b>always</b> be the most effective ones at killing marines. At the moment aliens and marines can all get lifeforms and weapons at the same point in the game, that creates the large imbalances/chokepoints/whatever you call it.
Hopefully Morty will put the video up soon, so you can see how easy and cheap these all-in strategies are. In the meantime you can look at <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116623" target="_blank">this match</a>(the same match, first map, ns2_turtle). Look at round 2, we are playing marines, and Archaea are playing aliens. Notice the amount of lifeforms we have to grind down to be able to win the game. Lerks, fades, bilegorges, and then as the grand finale, their whole team goes lerk. Then think of my suggestion, and how it would affect the game/reduce the spam. It would maybe prevent a fade or two, and prevent the full team lerk in the end. And marines weapon arsenal would be cut down on as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> -The reason you had so much difficulty is because you allowed aliens to hold 4 rts almost all game. Of course they are going to be able to have lifeforms up. But even though aliens had so much res the fades stayed dead when you killed them. Aliens never managed to get that mass you were talking about. Sure they had 3 fades when the 2nd hive went up but a 1 hive fade isn't that powerful(compared to 2 hive fade). Your team also expected the fades and drew back into defensive position and dealt with them. There may be a issue were it is to easy for fades to escape in ns2 but that can also be fixed with numbers/tweaks. -You can also notice that when the aliens were killing marines and preventing them from moving out marines had less shotguns. The reason why they managed to hold so many weapons in the 2nd part of the game is because they were always allowed to recap their weapons. You can see it rather clearly if you keep watching the team's res/pres over the course of the game. If it turns out that marine weapons are to cheap you could simply increase the pres required to buy them. -The reason for so many lerks in the end game is because the alien team had so much extra res(because they had 4 rts) and could only go for lerks, again the problem lies with res flow, not with the spamming. -Marines are still playing rather poorly because of performance, they will probably be able to take on these extra lifeforms when it get better.
If you can point me on specific points in this video were your problem can be seen please tell and I will check them out with an open mind. Also it would be nice to see the other video you are talking about.
You need to stop looking at making it so an entire team cannot go fade or lerk instantly, what you need to look at is why the entire team as a single life form is more effective then a well balanced team (skulk/lerk/gorge). In NS2 currently fades are terrible for killing rts/buildings, but skulks are very good at it. So are gorges (well while they still have BB). Lerks are great for baiting and distracting, as well as concealing advances of other alien units. Gorges are probably one of the most important units as you can be so much more aggressive as aliens since you have a forward healer, and also can be used as bait. Most alien play ive seen consists of skulks hoping around like crazy trying to bounce down a hallway at the marines. Yea maybe it used to work when performance was worse, but know people need to learn to skulk like in NS1 a little more. As marines currently there is really no way to fight fades effectively without A2, which why I think alot of those games get decided instantly at the second hive. The fade balance needs to be changed so that it is not quite so effective against lower armor, but not totally gimping the class. I still think that instant shotguns on marines is kinda stupid, but the welder somewhat lowers that effectiveness, and i think once performance is better the rifle will have a clearer purpose. I do think marines could be made a little better by starting with a little less P-res so that they cannot get shotguns at 45 seconds.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1910663:date=Mar 6 2012, 10:53 PM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Mar 6 2012, 10:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You need to stop looking at making it so an entire team cannot go fade or lerk instantly<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. It's a problem to allow easy massing of weapons and lifeforms. You can't just nerf the classes to the point where they are not effective in a large group. That would make single classes useless. We need to make lifeforms and weapons more rare, and make sure that not everyone can afford them at the same time.
Encourage synergy and a diversity of weapons/lifeforms to be the most effective. It's already there, it just needs a little more reinforcement. I feel like a diversity of classes should be encouraged. Teams should be punished for all using the same weapon/lifeform because they miss out on the strength of mixing weapon/lifeform types. Not arbitrary punishments for getting n+1 of a given tech.
<!--quoteo(post=1910679:date=Mar 6 2012, 11:15 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Mar 6 2012, 11:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No. It's a problem to allow easy massing of weapons and lifeforms. You can't just nerf the classes to the point where they are not effective in a large group. That would make single classes useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that's the plan, you need to have weak lerk, otherwise it's 6 lerks against 5 marines and alien win every game. They need to be weak enough to avoid that.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1910655:date=Mar 6 2012, 10:48 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Mar 6 2012, 10:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-The reason for so many lerks in the end game is because the alien team had so much extra res(because they had 4 rts) and could only go for lerks, again the problem lies with res flow, not with the spamming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As you can see in the end of the game, they were still able to afford at least two more fades if they had the hive. We took down one of their RTs(in service) around the 5 minute mark(10minute mark in the video). They recapped it a few minutes later though. We should have killed the loading harvester after we took down the first hive though. But even if we did that, we wouldn't have been able to prevent the lerk massing in the end. Hope Morty uploads the second game on summit soon, there they really played on the massing tactics. And they almost won because of it.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1910686:date=Mar 6 2012, 11:30 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Mar 6 2012, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well that's the plan, you need to have weak lerk, otherwise it's 6 lerks against 5 marines and alien win every game. They need to be weak enough to avoid that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've said this before: If you weaken them with massing in mind, single lerks will die like flies. And you will only cause this: it will be useless to evolve or buy a weapon, cause your basic weapon/lifeform is just as good. This is evident for both teams: Evolving or buying a weapon (potentially*) increases your effectiveness. If your whole team does it, it (potentially*) increases your whole teams effectiveness. That is why massing should not be as easily done(cheap) as now. However, the timings of when we see the first lifeforms does not need a change. So, simple cost tweak(increasing/decreasing cost for everyone) or nerfing hp/dmg around massing are not good solutions. Simple cost tweaks will just delay or cut down on the time of when you can "mass".
*Most evident in organized games, where players are always aware of resource situations, and work as a unit.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1910683:date=Mar 6 2012, 11:20 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 6 2012, 11:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't have to nerf down lifeforms or weapons.
Encourage synergy and a diversity of weapons/lifeforms to be the most effective. It's already there, it just needs a little more reinforcement. I feel like a diversity of classes should be encouraged. Teams should be punished for all using the same weapon/lifeform because they miss out on the strength of mixing weapon/lifeform types. Not arbitrary punishments for getting n+1 of a given tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 6 lerks are way more effective against marines than 6 skulks. Lerks have more HP and are more agile. 6 fades are way more effective against marines than 6 lerks. Fades have more HP and do more damage. 6 onos are way more effective against marines than 6 fades. Onos have alot more HP and temporily disables the marine he is attacking.
Something similar could be said for marines. My suggestion does exactly what you want to achieve. Punishing, for all doing the same thing. You just can't make all classes equally good. Some classes will be good for some things while others are good for other things. Simply evolving or buying a weapon adds to your teams strength. If your whole team does it at the same time it adds MASSIVELY to your teams strength. I would <u>really</u> like to see the massing get adressed, I feel that it is the one of the largest gameplay flaws. I have yet to see another suggestion that adresses it as well as mine, and scales with playernumbers.
You all are making great points but butt heads on the fix.
Here is an odd idea, so dont dismiss it off hand. What if you got rid of Team Res entirely. Make the commander/Khammander the class you play. You use Pres (now it can be called just Res) to build and do all the kh/commander things.
Now before you are all like WTF-OJAGNJKANGLKN, think about it. Without this dual pool you could easily have the comm gain 2 res for every one res the normal troops do or have a sorta of RpK/Res per Build. Say a Res per Complete building or even siphoning off everyone else. It would get the res back under control. It would leave the commander to benefit and remain with the most res to do his needed upgrades while linking him/her to their team intimately. You have a 58/1 BAMF, GREAT! more res for you.
Or if you dont like that just adjust the comm building costs to scale to individual Pres.
Now thinking about griefing and abuse you could blow your Pres then have someone else jump in to blow theirs as well. So just tie the Res to the chair. Whatever individual steps into the chair gets their Pres frozen while in the chair.
Sorry for the evolving idea but 2 res pools is silly if you dont have too.
edit* on second thought this doesnt solve anything swalk was bringing up. It might help though since the comm must now balance medpack/nano shield with tech and puts the aliens on an even res flow also. So another small thing like this with RFK and Iron's idea would smooth things over a bit.
Also along with what i said above the classes need to be better defined and given skills that give them a niche in all stages of the game. Lucky for us we have the 3 tiers. Tier 3 being the game ender.
Marine side needs a unique feel to each weapon choice. Right now the Shotty, GL, Flame, and Rifle all need specific task. We have damage types... why not take advantage.
Rifle and even spread (jack of all trades, master of none).
Shotty - Great vs tier 1 lifeforms, ok vs armored, garbage vs structures
GL - Great vs buildings, crap vs armored, crap vs tier 1 lifeforms - attached the the rifle it cant be all good.
Flame - crap vs tier 1 lifeforms, crap vs armored, crap buildings - Added energy stopper (gimmick weapon)
HMG - Great vs armored, Good vs tier 1 lifeforms, garbage vs buildings
Axe/welder - Great vs buildings, crap vs everything else.
This is really what we have already but it needs to be emphasized. Apply the above to the Alien classes. The skulk should be like the rifle. gorge the flamer. fade the shotty. onos the hmg, lerk the.... gl? crap that ALMOST worked. But you get the idea.
Aliens need (as we have been saying) better role definition and more abilities that fit this.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1910708:date=Mar 7 2012, 12:27 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 7 2012, 12:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rifle and even spread (jack of all trades, master of none).
Shotty - Great vs tier 1 lifeforms, ok vs armored, garbage vs structures
GL - Great vs buildings, crap vs armored, crap vs tier 1 lifeforms - attached the the rifle it cant be all good.
Flame - crap vs tier 1 lifeforms, crap vs armored, crap buildings - Added energy stopper (gimmick weapon)
Axe/welder - Great vs buildings, crap vs everything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Incorrect. Shotgun is great vs structures. GL is great vs tier 1 lifeforms.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
swalk youre not getting it. Risingsun is PROPOSING this change, not stating what it is currently. everyone is on the same page basically now: We're <b>not nerfing</b> the MASS TECH, we're <b><u>specializing </u>them so they are useless IF they are spammed.</b> the game has already <b>attempted </b>to do this so far.. it just needs to be corrected a bit more.
Imagine 6 fades in marine base, totally useless against destroying structures but exceptional at killing marines? those turrets would finally pay off, and marines can still have a chance of spawning in to fight since the structures cant be destroyed by them. (can even increase the dmg turrets do to fades to dissuade them from this tactic, as well as the proposed telefragging scardybob and me propose.)
basically we're saying the game is already built on this rock, paper, scissor mechanic in a loose form, were saying promote and increase it further to make MASS TECHING a losing strategy EVERY TIME. make more sense?
<b>edit</b>: i'm a good lerk generally.. but that 30 res is just not worth it, especially considering how easily he gets shotgun sniped. I personally feel shotguns should be useless against the lerk, promoting rifle tracking vs lerks, and keeping the shotgun vs fade focused. This keeps RisingSun's idea of GL vs Lerk still lol. R.P.S., my friend :)
Comments
Why? If aliens going fades immediately after hive 2 is OP and marines all picking up shotguns immediately is OP and marines picking up GLs immediately is OP... How is everything too powerful if it is all relative? You say everyone going lerk is potentially too powerful. That's mirrored by everyone going shotguns as too powerful. So if both sides are now all-in and too powerful, then they're balanced?
<!--quoteo(post=1910545:date=Mar 6 2012, 12:57 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Mar 6 2012, 12:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the current system you will either have to nerf the weapons and lifeforms to be useless, or you will have to limit them somehow. Alá NS1, or my suggestion to PRes, or something else that achieves the same(I can't think of anything else).
I would not like it if they just reverted every single thing to work like NS1, then we might as well just go play that.
But imagine the current system in a 16v16.
In a game like that, the problems I have stated will be even worse(becomes worse with higher playernumbers).
As suddenly popping most of the team with a lifeform or weapon, can overpower the opposite team very quickly.
The problem is that it is too easy to get a full team of fades, it doesn't take a long time, even if you go lerk or gorge in the earlygame.
Currently, in a 6v6 game, if you go two lerks, one gorge, three skulks in the earlygame.
Then you get 3 fades instantly when the hive goes up, and the lerks can follow that lead pretty quickly.
If my suggestion was in, you would most likely get one fade before the hive, and then pop more fades over the course of time.
So even a full out lerkrush doesn't really punish the aliens, they can still get a full team of fades soon after the second hive is up.
Same goes for a full shotgun equipped team.
The timings of when the weapons and lifeforms first are seen in the game, fits really well.
But the amount of lifeforms popping at those timings, are just too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't imagine this game in 16v16 for numerous reasons. Maps, performance, AOE spam, gorge heal spam, player collision, firing lanes, structure health. There are about 10 obvious problems that crop up before I feel like 16 fades immediately upon hive 2 would even warrant investigation.
If an alien goes lerk (-30 res + probably 2 for carapace or swarm), they will absolutely not be able to afford fade immediately when hive 2 goes up in a reasonable game. That's basically saying aliens would have 80 pres when hive 2 drops. That just doesn't happen in even games.
I still think that if you allow the enemy team to save up pres for a mass fade evolution then you're being beat. If half their team (1 gorge + 2 lerks) are already evolved, they won't be able to afford fades. You're going to have to deal with 2-3 fades at this point which, to me, is acceptable upon hive 2 completion.
Would you say that this problem is more prominent in organized/competitive play? I think if that's the case it may explain why you are getting so much resistance to your ideas. Many of us just don't see the problem you are illustrating as anything but hypothetical theorycraft. Getting everyone on a public server to save up 50 res for a fade or getting them all to go lerk is like herding cats.
Would you say that this problem is more prominent in organized/competitive play? I think if that's the case it may explain why you are getting so much resistance to your ideas. Many of us just don't see the problem you are illustrating as anything but hypothetical theorycraft. Getting everyone on a public server to save up 50 res for a fade or getting them all to go lerk is like herding cats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In organized play, if marines let the aliens get away with using skulks to defend the second hive from shotguns, then marines got beat.
I would not like it if they just reverted every single thing to work like NS1, then we might as well just go play that.
But imagine the current system in a 16v16.
In a game like that, the problems I have stated will be even worse(becomes worse with higher playernumbers).
As suddenly popping most of the team with a lifeform or weapon, can overpower the opposite team very quickly.
The problem is that it is too easy to get a full team of fades, it doesn't take a long time, even if you go lerk or gorge in the earlygame.
Currently, in a 6v6 game, if you go two lerks, one gorge, three skulks in the earlygame.
Then you get 3 fades instantly when the hive goes up, and the lerks can follow that lead pretty quickly.
If my suggestion was in, you would most likely get one fade before the hive, and then pop more fades over the course of time.
So even a full out lerkrush doesn't really punish the aliens, they can still get a full team of fades soon after the second hive is up.
Same goes for a full shotgun equipped team.
The timings of when the weapons and lifeforms first are seen in the game, fits really well.
But the amount of lifeforms popping at those timings, are just too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats where the first problem lies in you imagining a 16v16 in the current system, its just not realistic in any universe at the moment for the reasons and more listed by GORGEous. Being able to prioritize issues is a skill not everyone can handle it.
Brainstorming some ideas here:
1) Bringing back the kills = pres and halving pres income from RTs. Thus, if you get 0 kills it would take you twice as long for the same income. But if you get 2 pres per kill and had 10-15 kills before second hive, you would see fades at a similar time.
2) Pool together the team's pres income then distribute it based on score @100% +/- 25%.
IE 3 player team earning 10 pres / minute total. In the current setup this would be ~3.33 pres per minute to each player. In 2)'s setup, this would be 125% for the top player, 100% for the middle player, 75% for the bottom player for 4.16, 3.33, 2.50 pres respectively. Other players would be scaled within the +/-25% based on their ranking. This staggers when lifeforms becoming available due to cost and rewards top players while not hurting low players much. A downside is that comms would suffer low pres gain.
Would you say that this problem is more prominent in organized/competitive play? I think if that's the case it may explain why you are getting so much resistance to your ideas. Many of us just don't see the problem you are illustrating as anything but hypothetical theorycraft. Getting everyone on a public server to save up 50 res for a fade or getting them all to go lerk is like herding cats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that it requires no coordination to get that full team of fades.
You can <b>easily</b> get them, if you get the hive up. That <b>IS</b> the problem, and that is what sways the balance of NS2 mostly atm.
Simply all evolving at the same time doesn't require ANY coordination at all, I don't see how you can say that.
You can easily have someone go lerk in the earlygame, and then go fade after the hive is up, it's too easy to afford a full team of fades.
Just like it's too high reward for the risk of buying a full team of shotguns.
I would really like to post a video of one of our games on summit, even if we do overcome these mass rushes.
But the video really shows how easy it is to spam the lifeforms and still stay in the game of res and upgrades(the same goes for marine weapons).
However, I wasn't the one recording it, so I have no control over when it will be uploaded.
you can open up Player_Server.lua and add at line 224:
self:SetResources(self:GetResources() - 1)
Your last post especially makes it seems like you're talking specifically about a competitive environment, but you aren't clearly stating that. Getting everyone on a team to fade on a public server is impossible. Getting everyone to do it in a competitive environment is insanely easy. In competition however your opponents are also organized enough to spam shotguns to counter your fade spam, so it seems balanced to me.
Hopefully your video will highlight the problem.
Swalk makes some good points in the proliferation of high tech weapons / life forms immediately upon becoming available, but I think his solution (+2 res for x per x on the field) misses the point.
The best way to prevent everyone suddenly going fade at hive 2 is to make people want to spend pres on other lifeforms. Right now, gorges and lerks are clutch early game units. Your team is much more powerful if you have a gorge at first and second hive and a lerk or two to help harass. That's 3-4 players that won't be going fade. Typically this leaves 2-4 players in most pubs that will be going fade when hive 2 hits. What is wrong with this?
A team that saves all of their res throughout tier 1 in order to buy fades as soon as the second hive drops are taking a risk. They're intentionally under powering themselves early in order for a payoff later in the game. If the marines don't recognize this and punish the aliens via RT kills or a hive push, then the marines have simply been out played.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I repeat, if marines let the aliens get away with saving for their entire team to immediately fade upon hive 2 drop, then marines have been out played.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Now on to marines. I think shotgun "spam" is an over exaggerated issue. This last build, 199, has significantly reduced the power of shotguns. Shotguns are an investment every time you pick them up. If your entire team picks up a shotgun and attacks then you've taken a huge risk. At most, these shotgun pushes have 1 or 2 go's before marines run out of pres. And if you fail your push(s), then the marines are at a serious disadvantage with no shotguns/welders/mines on the field. This is exactly the same as if everyone on the alien team go lerk or gorge and rush. It's a risk that potentially sacrifices strength later on for strength now.
What I think should be focused on is the skill less nature of GLs and flame throwers. I also think shotguns could use a small 5-10 bump in cost to delay their rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is partly my point.
Ns2 is already going into diffrent direction from ns1. The devs made the ability to mass the same weapon/lifeform into the core mechanics of the game so this isn't something that is going to change. Numbers and abilities will need to be adjusted to make this work, we don't need to create a patch(aka swalk's mechanics) to change it since this is the direction the devs are going for(they could have kept the ns1 system if they wanted to have less weapons/lifeforms in the game). The focus should be on making it work.
If it becomes apparent that marines/aliens are able to go adv weapons/lifeforms to easiliy(even low on rts) then the res flow or the cost could be adjusted. We have to remember that it took years for ns1 to manage to get to its current form, will probably take ns2 similar time.
--
When we start talking about changes in the res system we should be very careful because it will affect way to many things. It should only be done if it's not enough to adjust the numbers (like the pres cost of shotguns). I don't like the idea of adding kill on res back into the game. It worked very will in ns1 but does not fit the ns2 pres system very well.
--
Btw Swalk, about this comment:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just like it's too high reward for the risk of buying a full team of shotguns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We should be addressing the risk factor of getting so many shotguns. Shotgun rushes in ns1 right off the bat had very high chance of success even vs teams that were allot better, this was still very risky and marines were left in a very bad position if it failed.
This should be similar in ns2, if everyone goes for shotguns then there should be a risk factor involved if it fails, such as not affording more weapons right away.
Swalks comments should not be ignored though, the game does need some adjustment and he does give valid points. I just don't think this is the right way to do it.
self:SetResources(self:GetResources() - 1)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you Schimmel I'll try it out and get back to you after testing.
I see that swalk's suggestion has some problems, but I still think player scaling needs to be adressed. Probably the best solution would be to make all lifeforms and weapons in specific proportions necessary to win, which is <b>incredibly</b> hard to do, unless you integrate hard counters into the game, which would also make the game more frustrating. One further thing to make scaling work better would be to scale building HP with players, but that would also cause lots of confusion when player numbers fluctuate a lot, so it won't work either.
Frankly, I don't really see a solution to the player scaling problem. The game will always get unbalanced for higher player numbers, no matter what you do. The good thing is this will only happen on public servers, the bad thing is that it encourages team stacking, since a team acting as one unit can be devastating with high enough player numbers to kill a whole marine base in 10 seconds.
Your last post especially makes it seems like you're talking specifically about a competitive environment, but you aren't clearly stating that. Getting everyone on a team to fade on a public server is impossible. Getting everyone to do it in a competitive environment is insanely easy. In competition however your opponents are also organized enough to spam shotguns to counter your fade spam, so it seems balanced to me.
Hopefully your video will highlight the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say that we overcame the rushes by having way better teamplay than the opposite team.
But that doesn't change the fact of the BAM! situations i described earlier.
Those situations are VERY often game-ending, we were lucky to survive and win the game.
I'm not only talking about competetive play, it's also evident on publics, at times, when people play properly.
On publics it might be alot less noticed, since not everyone might be watching their res, or watching when the hive is complete(fade).
A team full of shotguns is at a disadvantage against a team full of fades, even if the fades die in two shots, they can easily escape, especially when in numbers. Marines can't escape, aliens are the ones who decides when and where the battles takes place.
Higher lifeforms = more hp = more devastating to the marines.
That means that you can't make every lifeform just as effective, the high lifeforms will <b>always</b> be the most effective ones at killing marines.
At the moment aliens and marines can all get lifeforms and weapons at the same point in the game, that creates the large imbalances/chokepoints/whatever you call it.
Hopefully Morty will put the video up soon, so you can see how easy and cheap these all-in strategies are.
In the meantime you can look at <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116623" target="_blank">this match</a>(the same match, first map, ns2_turtle).
Look at round 2, we are playing marines, and Archaea are playing aliens.
Notice the amount of lifeforms we have to grind down to be able to win the game.
Lerks, fades, bilegorges, and then as the grand finale, their whole team goes lerk.
Then think of my suggestion, and how it would affect the game/reduce the spam.
It would maybe prevent a fade or two, and prevent the full team lerk in the end.
And marines weapon arsenal would be cut down on as well.
it would be better if the Rock, Paper, Scissor system was implemented. think of TF2. heavy + medic is a winning combo but can still be countered by a spy. requiring combos to win in base seiges also encourages teamwork.
@MisterNubs:
i believe you <b>completely </b>misunderstood my idea to a high degree.
i'm not saying anything about softcap?? i'm saying it led me to ANOTHER idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1910413:date=Mar 5 2012, 11:49 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Mar 5 2012, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A player that can't purchase a shotgun right away because someone else got it before them will just cause the player to wait a minute or two for the res. Meaning they're not doing anything productive while doing so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats what im saying, there is no more "waiting" for res. i absolutely abhor getting rewarded for simply "waiting in a corner" its boring for the player and its detrimental to the team that has 1 less player fighting.
in my model, <b>Pres come only from teamwork related tasks that you <u>personally</u> assisted in, not from resource points. Resource points contribute only to TECH that you can't personally buy yourself.</b>
meaning that if you cant buy a shotgun like the other guy did, thats because you weren't a)building b) following waypoint orders c)welding d)staying in groups e)destroying buildings etc etc etc. half of these things already are recorded in game and give you a little +5 notification when you do them. wouldnt be hard to make them the main method of Pres income - it encourages proper teamwork and coordination through personal reward, which immediately goes right back into helping your team again.
this leads to the game play where the new guy joins mid game and theres not a lot to build or weld, right?.. well he can still follow orders and he can still stay in groups and he can still destroy buildings with that LMG of his. you essentially will always have a chance at earning your reward/new weapon as long as the game isn't ended.
there are multiple ways to implement it, from flat rate for contributing to a %, to a % based on the number of players etc., We must take into account scenarios where you would be building a structure for ANY amount of time(The last 2 seconds)and you still get credit, (or do you?) just as much as the guy who was holding E the whole time, because that other guy was probably following orders, running from base, covering you while you built, etc. (could be yet another teamwork action recorded, being NEAR the builder for X amount of time)
it can be tweaked but i believe it still solves that issue of everyone having similar amounts of Pres based simply on TIME.
For aliens this can be implemented when pheromones come into play, as well as "Saving" your comrade when he's low on health, to healspray, to destroying buildings, to infestation, to parasiting, to using spores when your teamates are nearby etc etc etc.
that idea of yours also helps dissuade early skulk rushes!
if your team failed, it would have major consequences besides eggs.
i like it! +1
@koruyo
there were two different talks going on here, grissi and swalk talking about mass lifeforms /tech and swalk and I were discussing why i disagree with untying tech from the hive. (both were mentioned in the OP)
edit: contributing to that other topic,<b> i suggest Pres come only from teamwork related tasks that you personally assisted in, not from map control. map control contributes only to TECH.</b>
Flayra once talked about something similar in the design log that got me thinking, on 8/29/2011 in concern to stalemates (turtling) "Give points incrementally when damaging structures, instead of only when it’s destroyed (encourages teamwork, but this is soft)."
i think that building items and destroying items in the game that help the team along should go to the player, so that not everyone is able to purchase that shotgun - only those contributing to the teamwork the most. this could be simple buffs like being in a group of 3 or more for x time, or welding, or simply <i>hurting </i>the hive. the idea is not RFK its ResourcesForTeamwork, RFT. These things are already being pooled and recorded mostly anyhow, like when you see that +5 for building something.
Oh and it obviously not only helps stalemates, but also solves Mass Tech, increases teamwork significantly and scales with players!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1910628:date=Mar 6 2012, 08:14 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 6 2012, 08:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910628"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do like the idea. An even spread of Res guarantees what Swalk is talking about. More ups and downs of res would create enough of a gap that not everyone would be purchasing in that "surge". It is a soft fix and will help i think. Might even help give that extra incentive for pubbers to build stuff.
Even in the competitive scene the "base b*tch" would be rocking the first shotgun lol. Quite a change. Putting RpK back in the game might help further this along as well.
------
Another thing about this discussion is Shotguns themselves. They are the end all be all in weaponry and were only balanced out by HMGs. When talking about Tier 1 i like the shotgun and how you have to get it. There are so many choices as a comm in what to go for first: Phase Tech, MT, Weapons 1, Armor 1, Shotguns, Advanced Armory, another IP. It is a little overwhelming for me personally as a noob comm but i muddled through it (also was talking about RTs lol had to change the new name).
Problem is Alien side. Lerks are too fragile, skulks have movement issues (that are being worked on), and gorges blow through Pres like nothing which forces them to stay in their role. Skulks are bigger and a lot easier to hit as is the case with the lerks. Aliens get stomped before 2nd hive if comm'd correctly.
This is where i look to the competitive scene to see what is going one. People generally know what they are doing and what their options are. You still have your uber players but they can no longer off set a game by that huge a margin. How do competitive players deal with Hive 1? Rush Hive 2 and struggle till then?
edit* Another BIG problem is this game was balanced when marines lagged so bad they couldnt hit anything. Aliens were toned down.. well marines can AIM now lol... Tone it BACK. Feature complete will help too. Which will throw everything else out of whack. Feature complete before balance please =)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems another thread is hitting this same topic. Got confused where i was posting for a second lol. So to not repeat here it is.
But that doesn't change the fact of the BAM! situations i described earlier.
Those situations are VERY often game-ending, we were lucky to survive and win the game.
I'm not only talking about competetive play, it's also evident on publics, at times, when people play properly.
On publics it might be alot less noticed, since not everyone might be watching their res, or watching when the hive is complete(fade).
A team full of shotguns is at a disadvantage against a team full of fades, even if the fades die in two shots, they can easily escape, especially when in numbers. Marines can't escape, aliens are the ones who decides when and where the battles takes place.
Higher lifeforms = more hp = more devastating to the marines.
That means that you can't make every lifeform just as effective, the high lifeforms will <b>always</b> be the most effective ones at killing marines.
At the moment aliens and marines can all get lifeforms and weapons at the same point in the game, that creates the large imbalances/chokepoints/whatever you call it.
Hopefully Morty will put the video up soon, so you can see how easy and cheap these all-in strategies are.
In the meantime you can look at <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116623" target="_blank">this match</a>(the same match, first map, ns2_turtle).
Look at round 2, we are playing marines, and Archaea are playing aliens.
Notice the amount of lifeforms we have to grind down to be able to win the game.
Lerks, fades, bilegorges, and then as the grand finale, their whole team goes lerk.
Then think of my suggestion, and how it would affect the game/reduce the spam.
It would maybe prevent a fade or two, and prevent the full team lerk in the end.
And marines weapon arsenal would be cut down on as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-The reason you had so much difficulty is because you allowed aliens to hold 4 rts almost all game. Of course they are going to be able to have lifeforms up. But even though aliens had so much res the fades stayed dead when you killed them. Aliens never managed to get that mass you were talking about. Sure they had 3 fades when the 2nd hive went up but a 1 hive fade isn't that powerful(compared to 2 hive fade). Your team also expected the fades and drew back into defensive position and dealt with them.
There may be a issue were it is to easy for fades to escape in ns2 but that can also be fixed with numbers/tweaks.
-You can also notice that when the aliens were killing marines and preventing them from moving out marines had less shotguns. The reason why they managed to hold so many weapons in the 2nd part of the game is because they were always allowed to recap their weapons. You can see it rather clearly if you keep watching the team's res/pres over the course of the game. If it turns out that marine weapons are to cheap you could simply increase the pres required to buy them.
-The reason for so many lerks in the end game is because the alien team had so much extra res(because they had 4 rts) and could only go for lerks, again the problem lies with res flow, not with the spamming.
-Marines are still playing rather poorly because of performance, they will probably be able to take on these extra lifeforms when it get better.
If you can point me on specific points in this video were your problem can be seen please tell and I will check them out with an open mind. Also it would be nice to see the other video you are talking about.
No. It's a problem to allow easy massing of weapons and lifeforms.
You can't just nerf the classes to the point where they are not effective in a large group.
That would make single classes useless.
We need to make lifeforms and weapons more rare, and make sure that not everyone can afford them at the same time.
Encourage synergy and a diversity of weapons/lifeforms to be the most effective. It's already there, it just needs a little more reinforcement. I feel like a diversity of classes should be encouraged. Teams should be punished for all using the same weapon/lifeform because they miss out on the strength of mixing weapon/lifeform types. Not arbitrary punishments for getting n+1 of a given tech.
You can't just nerf the classes to the point where they are not effective in a large group.
That would make single classes useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that's the plan, you need to have weak lerk, otherwise it's 6 lerks against 5 marines and alien win every game. They need to be weak enough to avoid that.
As you can see in the end of the game, they were still able to afford at least two more fades if they had the hive.
We took down one of their RTs(in service) around the 5 minute mark(10minute mark in the video).
They recapped it a few minutes later though.
We should have killed the loading harvester after we took down the first hive though.
But even if we did that, we wouldn't have been able to prevent the lerk massing in the end.
Hope Morty uploads the second game on summit soon, there they really played on the massing tactics.
And they almost won because of it.
I've said this before:
If you weaken them with massing in mind, single lerks will die like flies.
And you will only cause this: it will be useless to evolve or buy a weapon, cause your basic weapon/lifeform is just as good.
This is evident for both teams:
Evolving or buying a weapon (potentially*) increases your effectiveness.
If your whole team does it, it (potentially*) increases your whole teams effectiveness.
That is why massing should not be as easily done(cheap) as now.
However, the timings of when we see the first lifeforms does not need a change.
So, simple cost tweak(increasing/decreasing cost for everyone) or nerfing hp/dmg around massing are not good solutions.
Simple cost tweaks will just delay or cut down on the time of when you can "mass".
*Most evident in organized games, where players are always aware of resource situations, and work as a unit.
Encourage synergy and a diversity of weapons/lifeforms to be the most effective. It's already there, it just needs a little more reinforcement. I feel like a diversity of classes should be encouraged. Teams should be punished for all using the same weapon/lifeform because they miss out on the strength of mixing weapon/lifeform types. Not arbitrary punishments for getting n+1 of a given tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
6 lerks are way more effective against marines than 6 skulks.
Lerks have more HP and are more agile.
6 fades are way more effective against marines than 6 lerks.
Fades have more HP and do more damage.
6 onos are way more effective against marines than 6 fades.
Onos have alot more HP and temporily disables the marine he is attacking.
Something similar could be said for marines.
My suggestion does exactly what you want to achieve. Punishing, for all doing the same thing.
You just can't make all classes equally good.
Some classes will be good for some things while others are good for other things.
Simply evolving or buying a weapon adds to your teams strength.
If your whole team does it at the same time it adds MASSIVELY to your teams strength.
I would <u>really</u> like to see the massing get adressed, I feel that it is the one of the largest gameplay flaws.
I have yet to see another suggestion that adresses it as well as mine, and scales with playernumbers.
Here is an odd idea, so dont dismiss it off hand. What if you got rid of Team Res entirely. Make the commander/Khammander the class you play. You use Pres (now it can be called just Res) to build and do all the kh/commander things.
Now before you are all like WTF-OJAGNJKANGLKN, think about it. Without this dual pool you could easily have the comm gain 2 res for every one res the normal troops do or have a sorta of RpK/Res per Build. Say a Res per Complete building or even siphoning off everyone else. It would get the res back under control. It would leave the commander to benefit and remain with the most res to do his needed upgrades while linking him/her to their team intimately. You have a 58/1 BAMF, GREAT! more res for you.
Or if you dont like that just adjust the comm building costs to scale to individual Pres.
Now thinking about griefing and abuse you could blow your Pres then have someone else jump in to blow theirs as well. So just tie the Res to the chair. Whatever individual steps into the chair gets their Pres frozen while in the chair.
Sorry for the evolving idea but 2 res pools is silly if you dont have too.
edit* on second thought this doesnt solve anything swalk was bringing up. It might help though since the comm must now balance medpack/nano shield with tech and puts the aliens on an even res flow also. So another small thing like this with RFK and Iron's idea would smooth things over a bit.
Marine side needs a unique feel to each weapon choice. Right now the Shotty, GL, Flame, and Rifle all need specific task. We have damage types... why not take advantage.
Rifle and even spread (jack of all trades, master of none).
Shotty - Great vs tier 1 lifeforms, ok vs armored, garbage vs structures
GL - Great vs buildings, crap vs armored, crap vs tier 1 lifeforms - attached the the rifle it cant be all good.
Flame - crap vs tier 1 lifeforms, crap vs armored, crap buildings - Added energy stopper (gimmick weapon)
HMG - Great vs armored, Good vs tier 1 lifeforms, garbage vs buildings
Axe/welder - Great vs buildings, crap vs everything else.
This is really what we have already but it needs to be emphasized. Apply the above to the Alien classes. The skulk should be like the rifle. gorge the flamer. fade the shotty. onos the hmg, lerk the.... gl? crap that ALMOST worked. But you get the idea.
Aliens need (as we have been saying) better role definition and more abilities that fit this.
Not to mention all tech isnt in yet.
Shotty - Great vs tier 1 lifeforms, ok vs armored, garbage vs structures
GL - Great vs buildings, crap vs armored, crap vs tier 1 lifeforms - attached the the rifle it cant be all good.
Flame - crap vs tier 1 lifeforms, crap vs armored, crap buildings - Added energy stopper (gimmick weapon)
Axe/welder - Great vs buildings, crap vs everything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incorrect.
Shotgun is great vs structures.
GL is great vs tier 1 lifeforms.
Risingsun is PROPOSING this change, not stating what it is currently.
everyone is on the same page basically now: We're <b>not nerfing</b> the MASS TECH, we're <b><u>specializing </u>them so they are useless IF they are spammed.</b>
the game has already <b>attempted </b>to do this so far.. it just needs to be corrected a bit more.
Imagine 6 fades in marine base, totally useless against destroying structures but exceptional at killing marines? those turrets would finally pay off, and marines can still have a chance of spawning in to fight since the structures cant be destroyed by them. (can even increase the dmg turrets do to fades to dissuade them from this tactic, as well as the proposed telefragging scardybob and me propose.)
basically we're saying the game is already built on this rock, paper, scissor mechanic in a loose form, were saying promote and increase it further to make MASS TECHING a losing strategy EVERY TIME.
make more sense?
<b>edit</b>: i'm a good lerk generally.. but that 30 res is just not worth it, especially considering how easily he gets shotgun sniped. I personally feel shotguns should be useless against the lerk, promoting rifle tracking vs lerks, and keeping the shotgun vs fade focused. This keeps RisingSun's idea of GL vs Lerk still lol. R.P.S., my friend :)
Oh yeah, nothing.