swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1910725:date=Mar 7 2012, 01:02 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 7 2012, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->swalk youre not getting it. Risingsun is PROPOSING this change, not stating what it is currently. everyone is on the same page basically now: We're <b>not nerfing</b> the MASS TECH, we're <b><u>specializing </u>them so they are useless IF they are spammed.</b> the game has already <b>attempted </b>to do this so far.. it just needs to be corrected a bit more.
Imagine 6 fades in marine base, totally useless against destroying structures but exceptional at killing marines? those turrets would finally pay off, and marines can still have a chance of spawning in to fight since the structures cant be destroyed by them. (can even increase the dmg turrets do to fades to dissuade them from this tactic, as well as the proposed telefragging scardybob and me propose.)
basically we're saying the game is already built on this rock, paper, scissor mechanic in a loose form, were saying promote and increase it further to make MASS TECHING a losing strategy EVERY TIME. make more sense?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My bad, I misunderstood him. But how would you decrease the effectiveness of massed units without decreasing effectiveness of the single units? I can't see how you would do that. Decrease damage output by how many % of the players having the lifeform? I wouldn't like that, as it would scale badly with the very lategame(where a (almost) full team of fades, or whatever you want <u>should</u> be accessable, and useful) All my suggestion does is to make these mass strategies a bit more expensive, but still viable as all-in's. Now these mass tactics are not really all-in's at all, you can do it easily, and get away with it.
I don't like the idea of telefragging. It's just plain annoying getting telefragged by a mistake, because you was one unit too close to the phase gate/IP.
Try to re-imagine your scenario with 6 fades in the base, turrets can't really hurt them much, due to blink. Kill all the marines, take turns regenerating/killing the IPs and spawning marines. GG.
Fades are not ineffective against structures, they still do damage, they are just a little less effective than other classes at that specific task. Due to the <u>soft</u> rock paper scissor mechanics implemented. That doesn't mean that the ability to mass them after a few minutes is not a problem. In a 6v6 it's no problem at all to get a lerk a gorge and 4 fades. And the point where the 4 fades pop(maybe 5 after a bit of time, if the lerk died), at the same time, every single game, needs a change. Like the rest of the related issues I've listed in this thread. Massing can be in the game, but it should be high risk/high reward. Not low risk/high reward. You pay more, to mass. If it's more expensive to pop more(than one) of the same lifeforms, then it will probably often pay more off, taking a lower lifeform. Same applies to weapons.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
i think we all (including devs?) agree that all of the same lifeforms on a team should not equal a win. in fact it should be avoided as it will cause a loss.
<!--quoteo(post=1910734:date=Mar 6 2012, 04:30 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Mar 6 2012, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But how would you decrease the effectiveness of massed units without decreasing effectiveness of the single units?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you dont decrease their effectiveness in regards to their role. take the fade for instance, he's supposed to focus on hit and run tactics against marines only. hes already good at that. now make his ability to damage structures much weaker to useless, and your scenario of 6 fades being able to destroy the IPs would not be able to happen. (especially if some electrifying, telefragging equivalent is put in place) you would need some lerks in there to bile bomb (ugh dont get me started on that proposed changed.) and some gorges to heal and some skulks to harass etc. obviously i suggest for marines to make the shotgun the fade counter, and make the shotgun useless against lerks, so that you need that variance to win.<b> Its not nerfing, its specializing, which is already in place - just not effectively enough.</b> This is why the gorge is not great at killing marines, and why the GL is not effective against lerks.
<!--quoteo(post=1910734:date=Mar 6 2012, 04:30 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Mar 6 2012, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the point where the 4 fades pop(maybe 5 after a bit of time, if the lerk died), at the same time, every single game, needs a change. Massing can be in the game, but it should be high risk/high reward. Not low risk/high reward. You pay more, to mass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) implement the idea i suggested regarding Pres being acquired from actual input from the player, as in teamwork and following orders etc, it would solve this issue by rewarding better players (not KD) for their actions, as Risingsun said: <i>" An even spread of Res guarantees what Swalk is talking about. More ups and downs of res would create enough of a gap that not everyone would be purchasing in that "surge". "</i> this would replace the current requirement, which is merely <b><u>TIME</u></b>, and that is why you get such a surge. 2) massing can be in the game, but should be made to be a losing strategy. why should six, 10res gorges be able to decimate a fully teched based? they shouldnt. it should require TEAMWORK based on specialty. (imagine the organized matches you play in, where the comm says "you are going lerk" "you are going fade" etc.. the assigning of roles works for a reason, we should encourage this as its what the game is based on, much like a balanced TF2 game.)
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
I think attempting to balance the ability for marines/aliens to all dump their res into the same lifeform/weapon/etc is going about it the wrong way.
We all agree (well most of us) that massing any one lifeform/weapon is a bad thing and undesirable. I think that attempting to make it more difficult (or costly) to do this will only restrict and/or frustrate players. Instead we should be considering ways to promote synergies between lifeforms and weapons so that they encourage diversity. If teams are better off strategically and/or tactically with a diversity of lifeforms/weapons then there is no need for massing.
Another take on the above situation would be to have alien and marine players play an integral role in developing technology for both races, by dumping resources to gain access to certain technologies. One of the best gameplay aspects of NS1 aliens was the integral role players performed in developing their teams tech tree. This means that to develop technologically some players must sacrifice their ability to buy weapons/lifeforms.
If you want to make an equal distribution of lifeforms/weapons vital, the best thing to do is to build in near-crippling weaknesses into them.
Here's a hypothetical example: A Fade without Shadow Step runs into serious problems when it hits an FT; it needs a Lerk (range) or Skulk (energy abundance) by its side to clear him out and mulch his team. Without one, it runs the serious risk of running out of energy and getting gunned down. Thus, Fades are good, but a team full of Fades will get Flamed and Shotgunned into sucking.
I know people are sick of the TF2 analogy, but it's a game that's managed to make each class powerful while making an overabundance of any class worthless (except heavy, but back in Vanilla they were much slower and more vulnerable; they got ripped apart with no quick classes to cover them) by carefully leaving large holes in each class' abilities.
Im glad we can all talk out our ideas civilly. I truly appreciate it. onward:
Isnt there different damage types in game? Piercing, slashing, and such? Making the marine weapons highly effective against say the skulk who has low armor but less effective against the lerk who has more would be easy. I like where Iron is going with this. It isnt that you CANT kill a onos with a shotgun instead of HMG but it should be damn hard. I never want to remove the slight possibility, just make it undesirable.
Res can solve it self two of multiple ways. Allows for Iron's res gains and restructure damage types so each weapon has a specific use and situation it excels in but also one that it is terrible. That way you NEED other weapon types. The rifle being the one gun (since it is default) that is ok at everything but excels at nothing.
Lifeforms have Life and armor as we all know. ROUGH MATH INCOMING:
Rifle does 10 damage per bullet to Life, but 5 damage to armor. Shotgun does 4 damage per pellet (10 pellets per shot) to life , 6 damage per pellet to armor, but 2 damage per pellet buildings. (not sure about the shotgun shell mechanic so i cant accurately balance this) GL does 5 damage to life, 5 damage to armor, 50 damage to buildings (rough guess but would scale to building health which i dont know the values. Say damage as is now) HMG 25 damage per bullet to life, 10 damage per bullet to armor, 2 damage per bullet to buildings. (Rate of Fire of course being 2-4 times faster than the Rifle) Flame 5 damage to life per second, 25 damage per second to armor, and 10 damage per second to buildings.
Again values are just to illustrate a point. I could do the same to the alien classes with abilities thrown in but why do all that when this is a discussion about what to do not what we WILL do. :P
<!--quoteo(post=1910756:date=Mar 6 2012, 09:03 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Mar 6 2012, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think attempting to balance the ability for marines/aliens to all dump their res into the same lifeform/weapon/etc is going about it the wrong way.
We all agree (well most of us) that massing any one lifeform/weapon is a bad thing and undesirable. I think that attempting to make it more difficult (or costly) to do this will only restrict and/or frustrate players. Instead we should be considering ways to promote synergies between lifeforms and weapons so that they encourage diversity. If teams are better off strategically and/or tactically with a diversity of lifeforms/weapons then there is no need for massing.
Another take on the above situation would be to have alien and marine players play an integral role in developing technology for both races, by dumping resources to gain access to certain technologies. One of the best game play aspects of NS1 aliens was the integral role players performed in developing their teams tech tree. This means that to develop technologically some players must sacrifice their ability to buy weapons/lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is well said. There is a problem right now how to make the new res system work that way, we don't really have other games to fallback on since ns2 is kinda on its own. With all the changes ns2 has made it has already gone far away from many of the core ns1 mechanics. --- One of the problems with ns2 right now it simply copied many ns1 mechanics instead of reworking them. I'm surprised if they expected everything to fit perfectly together with the new ns2 mechanics(the new res system, power system, infestation etc). Currently mass weapons will always be an option for the game, and it won't change if the res system stays the same. Its basically build into the core of the game. That's why we are kinda forced to go for the other solution, make diversity more rewarding and have more ways for players to spend their res.
So like I have said earlier, the mass weapons is not the problem because the game is build that way, the problem lies in the resource system and it will be really hard to balance it. But it is possible and might turn out good, but we have no idea how much time it will take. --- If possible I would like to prevent hard counters, I'm more for soft counters like it is now. I think it would hurt the game if everything needed specific equipment/lifeform to counter the other team. --- I saw a good point earlier about one of the problems with fades. Marines kinda need to have armor 2 by the 6 min mark or they will die in 2 hits. I think marines should be able to take 3 hits from a fade with lvl 1 armor.
Too lazy to find out who said it, but they had the best idea.
Reduce the rate that personal resources are given by half (maybe even 3/4) and bring back resources for kills and possibly add resource points for kill assists (If tf2 can detect assists, I would hope NS2 could too). Reward resources for killing enemy structures and give resource points for assisting in destroying of enemy structures so players don't try to screw others over by last hitting structures to steal the resource points (If marine commander recycles, then aliens should be rewarded with half the resource points). Cysts/power nodes shouldn't give resource points though unless they're both seriously buffed to compensate. Resource nodes would also become even <b>more</b> competitive to secure than they are now because of how scarce passive resource gain would become.
That should help reduce turtling strategies. It would also space out when people upgrade their weapons/life forms. Making resource points harder to come by should also help increase team play mentality as dying would feel punishing and no-one would want to lose their weapon/life-form, so they would feel more inclined to want to stick with other members of their team because of it. The better and more team oriented players would be rewarded by being able to upgrade faster.
Still feel though the game could benefit by giving weapons/life-forms more structured specializations.
Some things would have to change a little to adjust to the slower resource gains. Gorge's structure costs would have to be reduced. Lerks* would have to become a bit beefier and a bit stronger, but other than that everything else could mostly stay the same.
*I'm seriously advocating stronger lerk units because as Kham I wish I had the choice of either being able to go upgrades first or rushing the second hive. Right now its rush second hive for fades before marines can earn armor 2 so it doesn't become an instant loss because one hive life-forms are just too weak to move on to mid-game.
<!--quoteo(post=1910758:date=Mar 7 2012, 01:06 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Mar 7 2012, 01:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My two cents:
If you want to make an equal distribution of lifeforms/weapons vital, the best thing to do is to build in near-crippling weaknesses into them.
Here's a hypothetical example: A Fade without Shadow Step runs into serious problems when it hits an FT; it needs a Lerk (range) or Skulk (energy abundance) by its side to clear him out and mulch his team. Without one, it runs the serious risk of running out of energy and getting gunned down. Thus, Fades are good, but a team full of Fades will get Flamed and Shotgunned into sucking.
I know people are sick of the TF2 analogy, but it's a game that's managed to make each class powerful while making an overabundance of any class worthless (except heavy, but back in Vanilla they were much slower and more vulnerable; they got ripped apart with no quick classes to cover them) by carefully leaving large holes in each class' abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It'a also a game I entirely loathe because there is zero point in me playing it.
Winning or losing is determined not by my input, but by what enemy I run into. If a demoman attacks my sentry, it dies. if a pyro sees my spy, it dies, if a heavy is in the same place as my scout, it dies.
Why am I playing the game when my input amounts to moving the character to the next dice roll to determine victory or defeat?
Except to collect hats, of course, that's a vital game mechanic.
While reading this epic thread. I think I thought of an elegant solution to these problems
The issue seems to be to many special items/life forms flood the game once available. My idea was to add in a simple timer that produces items rather than increasing their cost. (timings are listed reference points)
Research a weapon type 3 of them are available immediately from the armory after research completes Once a stored weapon have been removed from the armory it will build 1 new weapon of that type every (X) 30 seconds Armory will store a maximum of 3 of each weapon type like a gun rack. Advanced armory produces quicker and stores 5 weapons You still use PRES to buy weapons.
The same theory could be added to hives. But I think it would work best if you untie life forms from hives. Storing life forms like the armory stores guns. limiting how many life forms are running around tied to number of hives.
Life forms still cost PRES but they are only available once the life form timer has reached 0 and stored that life form in the hive. Skulks 0 seconds 1 Gorge every 45 seconds 1 Lerk every 120 seconds 1 fade every 180 Seconds 1 Onos every 240 seconds
1 Hive supports (X) life forms (upkeep idea) (Life forms untied from hives) Unlimited Skulks 3 Gorges 2 Lerks 2 Fades 1 Onos
More hives the more life form support slots. This way you can't have 6 fades flying around till you have 3 hives. 4 Hives unlimited life form slots
I hope you like the idea or tear it to shreads and something good comes out of it.
<!--quoteo(post=1910868:date=Mar 7 2012, 01:33 AM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Mar 7 2012, 01:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While reading this epic thread. I think I thought of an elegant solution to these problems
The issue seems to be to many special items/life forms flood the game once available. My idea was to add in a simple timer that produces items rather than increasing their cost. (timings are listed reference points)
Research a weapon type 3 of them are available immediately from the armory after research completes Once a stored weapon have been removed from the armory it will build 1 new weapon of that type every (X) 30 seconds Armory will store a maximum of 3 of each weapon type like a gun rack. Advanced armory produces quicker and stores 5 weapons You still use PRES to buy weapons.
The same theory could be added to hives. But I think it would work best if you untie life forms from hives. Storing life forms like the armory stores guns. limiting how many life forms are running around tied to number of hives.
Life forms still cost PRES but they are only available once the life form timer has reached 0 and stored that life form in the hive. Skulks 0 seconds 1 Gorge every 45 seconds 1 Lerk every 120 seconds 1 fade every 180 Seconds 1 Onos every 240 seconds
1 Hive supports (X) life forms (upkeep idea) (Life forms untied from hives) Unlimited Skulks 3 Gorges 2 Lerks 2 Fades 1 Onos
More hives the more life form support slots. This way you can't have 6 fades flying around till you have 3 hives. 4 Hives unlimited life form slots
I hope you like the idea or tear it to shreads and something good comes out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While a good idea. It sounds like it would be a balancing nightmare. Someone new on aliens goes fade because they have the resources and proceeds to die two seconds later. That fade spot is gone.
Someone new on Marines goes shotgun and proceeds to die two seconds later. That's fine, someone else will just pick it up.
I've been in games where Aliens were egg limited, I would hate to see the same for higher life-forms.
---
Really, the problem is personal resources. Pres needs to be slowed WAY down.
<!--quoteo(post=1910868:date=Mar 7 2012, 01:33 AM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Mar 7 2012, 01:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While reading this epic thread. I think I thought of an elegant solution to these problems
The issue seems to be to many special items/life forms flood the game once available. My idea was to add in a simple timer that produces items rather than increasing their cost. (timings are listed reference points)
Research a weapon type 3 of them are available immediately from the armory after research completes Once a stored weapon have been removed from the armory it will build 1 new weapon of that type every (X) 30 seconds Armory will store a maximum of 3 of each weapon type like a gun rack. Advanced armory produces quicker and stores 5 weapons You still use PRES to buy weapons.
The same theory could be added to hives. But I think it would work best if you untie life forms from hives. Storing life forms like the armory stores guns. limiting how many life forms are running around tied to number of hives.
Life forms still cost PRES but they are only available once the life form timer has reached 0 and stored that life form in the hive. Skulks 0 seconds 1 Gorge every 45 seconds 1 Lerk every 120 seconds 1 fade every 180 Seconds 1 Onos every 240 seconds
1 Hive supports (X) life forms (upkeep idea) (Life forms untied from hives) Unlimited Skulks 3 Gorges 2 Lerks 2 Fades 1 Onos
More hives the more life form support slots. This way you can't have 6 fades flying around till you have 3 hives. 4 Hives unlimited life form slots
I hope you like the idea or tear it to shreads and something good comes out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a neat idea for competitive games, but it would absolutely fail in pub games. New people taking the only fade for 3 minutes? Bad shooters taking all the shotguns?
An idea like this is for people early game be calling out their roles like they did in NS1 and you have till you aquire the PRES for the said life form.
Also 2 fades at 1 hive with a new one avalible evey 2 minutes. Your team is out matched if you could not hold them off. 4 fades at 2 hives that newbie is more likely to practice then or direct them to do so then.
That fade spot is only gone while he is alive, if he dies it become available again and you could have aliens timer counting down while all slots are filled it just doesn't let you evolve till he dies and if he is new that won't be too long.
New players will always balls stuff up because they are new you can't design complex games around that.
The RFK idea actually could work well, as it would separate the timings a good bit. I miss RFK as it rewards skillful and smart play with weapons/lifeforms, ESP as aliens. You could slow the extractor personal resource rates and make it a fixed rate RFK to eliminate some of the old issues.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1910868:date=Mar 7 2012, 07:33 AM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Mar 7 2012, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While reading this epic thread. I think I thought of an elegant solution to these problems
The issue seems to be to many special items/life forms flood the game once available. My idea was to add in a simple timer that produces items rather than increasing their cost. (timings are listed reference points)
Research a weapon type 3 of them are available immediately from the armory after research completes Once a stored weapon have been removed from the armory it will build 1 new weapon of that type every (X) 30 seconds Armory will store a maximum of 3 of each weapon type like a gun rack. Advanced armory produces quicker and stores 5 weapons You still use PRES to buy weapons.
The same theory could be added to hives. But I think it would work best if you untie life forms from hives. Storing life forms like the armory stores guns. limiting how many life forms are running around tied to number of hives.
Life forms still cost PRES but they are only available once the life form timer has reached 0 and stored that life form in the hive. Skulks 0 seconds 1 Gorge every 45 seconds 1 Lerk every 120 seconds 1 fade every 180 Seconds 1 Onos every 240 seconds
1 Hive supports (X) life forms (upkeep idea) (Life forms untied from hives) Unlimited Skulks 3 Gorges 2 Lerks 2 Fades 1 Onos
More hives the more life form support slots. This way you can't have 6 fades flying around till you have 3 hives. 4 Hives unlimited life form slots
I hope you like the idea or tear it to shreads and something good comes out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Putting in hard limits, like limiting to amount of hives, does not scale with playernumbers. I believe one of NS2's goals is to scale with playernumbers, as NS1 didn't do that very well. That's why I purposed to have the cost scale with percentage of players having lifeform/weapon X. It scales with all playernumbers, and increases the amount of resources required to mass.
While synergy is important, I don't think it will <b>ever</b> solve this issue. I wouldn't like to see the <u>soft</u> rock paper scissor become <u>hard</u> rock paper scissor. That's hard counters, UWE don't want hard counters. I wouldn't like it either, not in a RTS/FPS.
So, what are the options? I have yet to see a suggestion that adresses it like mine, and scales with playernumbers as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1910879:date=Mar 7 2012, 08:48 AM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Mar 7 2012, 08:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The RFK idea actually could work well, as it would separate the timings a good bit. I miss RFK as it rewards skillful and smart play with weapons/lifeforms, ESP as aliens. You could slow the extractor personal resource rates and make it a fixed rate RFK to eliminate some of the old issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You could add RFK on top of my suggestion, if players runs out of PRes too easily. However, as you say, it would indeed need to be a fixed number, instead of random 1-3. I think 1 RFK would fit better for NS2. However, I wouldn't like the see the extractors become less <u>directly</u> affecting ground players. ie. slower PRes income. Extractors should be very important for both ground players, and the commander, imo.
<!--quoteo(post=1910868:date=Mar 7 2012, 05:33 AM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Mar 7 2012, 05:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While reading this epic thread. I think I thought of an elegant solution to these problems
The issue seems to be to many special items/life forms flood the game once available. My idea was to add in a simple timer that produces items rather than increasing their cost. (timings are listed reference points)
Research a weapon type 3 of them are available immediately from the armory after research completes Once a stored weapon have been removed from the armory it will build 1 new weapon of that type every (X) 30 seconds Armory will store a maximum of 3 of each weapon type like a gun rack. Advanced armory produces quicker and stores 5 weapons You still use PRES to buy weapons.
The same theory could be added to hives. But I think it would work best if you untie life forms from hives. Storing life forms like the armory stores guns. limiting how many life forms are running around tied to number of hives.
Life forms still cost PRES but they are only available once the life form timer has reached 0 and stored that life form in the hive. Skulks 0 seconds 1 Gorge every 45 seconds 1 Lerk every 120 seconds 1 fade every 180 Seconds 1 Onos every 240 seconds
1 Hive supports (X) life forms (upkeep idea) (Life forms untied from hives) Unlimited Skulks 3 Gorges 2 Lerks 2 Fades 1 Onos
More hives the more life form support slots. This way you can't have 6 fades flying around till you have 3 hives. 4 Hives unlimited life form slots
I hope you like the idea or tear it to shreads and something good comes out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally have never liked hard caps. Counter Strike saw this with the one shot one kill AWP. It was ridiculous. I think there is a better solution in making it a disavantage for having a team full of fades or at least very very risky (an All In type of deal).
Edit* Swalk, my idea with the hard rock paper scissor, your idea with supply and demand, and other idea of limited outflow. All of these are drastic solutions. All of these force the player to play a certain way and i think we can do better.
Let's just look at what would happen if we made certain soft counters:
Untie lifeforms from hive - More emphasis on RTs and keeping them up for more res flow and faster lifeforms. Add RFK into this and we have people popping higher lifeforms at different times. Make shotguns default but start the marines out with a lot less Pres.
Now make each class fun and useful like in NS1 and make the class actually worth the res. I think we are also bumping heads with UWE's idea of more units but not as powerful. With this idea in mind everything purchased a lot should be nerfed till it isnt unfortunately.
I would like to see instead of nerfing something make the other options more appealing.
Editx2* Also there will be a problem when Flayra puts in that cool system of lifeform evolution. Buy the gorge with Pres and the Lerk costs 10res less and so on. This will further the everyone pops fade and even encourage everyone to go to higher lifeforms instead of sticking with the class they have because it is needed.
There should always be a reason to have a lerk, gorge, or even skulk around.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1911017:date=Mar 7 2012, 10:15 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 7 2012, 10:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911017"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Untie lifeforms from hive - More emphasis on RTs and keeping them up for more res flow and faster lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nooooo i have so many problems with this idea that i have tried to explain to everyone over the course of like 4 threads lol
must notably is encouraging turtling with a singular, HEAVILY fortified base, instead of having your tech spread throughout the map as aliens currently do. not to mention the other issues that come with it like spawning and aliens viewing putting up a 2nd hive to be "not economical" as marines do currently since the techpoint importance was removed. (so the only point in techpoints would be relocation? ugh.) map control should include hurting the enemy team's tech besides determing <b>WHEN </b>it occurs, since its required to EARN the tech in the first place. otherwise, it would be akin to building an arms lab, fully upgrading it, it being destroyed and having all the perks still.
(example is slightly flawed because the arms lab is already in that mentioned HEAVILY fortified base, so if aliens were in that area they would be focusing on the CC or powernode, but his only proves my point: without tech being able to be damaged through map control, you are going to have major turtling at any stage of the game!)
edit: unless you have a requirement of "need X amount of resource points at any given time to be capable of teching up to X lifeform" then it will work, but you will still have the issue of over developed bases
<!--quoteo(post=1911049:date=Mar 7 2012, 07:18 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 7 2012, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nooooo i have so many problems with this idea that i have tried to explain to everyone over the course of like 4 threads lol
must notably is encouraging turtling with a singular, HEAVILY fortified base, instead of having your tech spread throughout the map as aliens currently do. not to mention the other issues that come with it like spawning and aliens viewing putting up a 2nd hive to be "not economical" as marines do currently since the techpoint importance was removed. (so the only point in techpoints would be relocation? ugh.) map control should include hurting the enemy team's tech besides determing <b>WHEN </b>it occurs, since its required to EARN the tech in the first place. otherwise, it would be akin to building an arms lab, fully upgrading it, it being destroyed and having all the perks still.
(example is slightly flawed because the arms lab is already in that mentioned HEAVILY fortified base, so if aliens were in that area they would be focusing on the CC or powernode, but his only proves my point: without tech being able to be damaged through map control, you are going to have major turtling at any stage of the game!)
edit: unless you have a requirement of "need X amount of resource points at any given time to be capable of teching up to X lifeform" then it will work, but you will still have the issue of over developed bases<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didnt mean this as the sole fix. I understand what you mean and my suggestion does seem to promote what you are saying. So let me hit it from a different angle. Once all the chambers are in they will give alien the option to create a hive based on those tactics. Defense hive, energy hive, and cloak hive. One by itself will not be enough and the second set of chambers/strategies it unlocks should be the reason aliens push for that second hive, not lifeforms. In NS1 you have the movement hive which was widely accepted as hive 1 due to the teleport between hives ability and celerity. Sensory offered an interesting risky strat that forced you to get hive two fast due to marines being able to out tech you and the defense hive that was a solid safe hive though lacked quick movement.
This is the piece we are still missing. A BIG chunk of alien gameplay. This is why i think UWE hasnt acted yet or even commented in this post. In the mean time for balance they linked the lifeforms to the hive to have that second hive incentive. Chambers will give you all the incentive you need and will allow for lifeforms to be unlocked. Then you will see those marines taking over hive locations (if it goes back to 4 a map. Too many locations are hard to lock down so marines dont bother.)
My issue with the second hive is that it has <i>too much</i> tech tied into it. New chamber type & doubled spawn rate/hive energy would already be a lot of tech on one building. It does not encourage turtling as you still need to control the map for economy reasons.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
@Risingsun: interesting idea. i like it, actually. it solves some of the issues of life forms and the chokepoint of 2nd hive, while also still keeping it important. (this is what i recommend for marines, coincidentally enough, tie something needed but not TOO detrimental to a CC) I'm going to think on it and see if i can find any holes or issues with it :)
@Muyeah: if you are referring to what i said in that last sentence all you need to do is <b>a)</b> re read it<b> b)</b> notice almost every marine game played , to see that gaining res needed for teching up still requires <b>some </b>map control, yes, (technically you only need the RT you start with on a long enough timeline) but that all of your tech remains in a singular location so you still an over developed base like i said. i.e. <u>turtling</u>.
<b>edit</b>: Aliens turtling means they have skulks and lerks, with missing upgrades. Marines turtling means they still have JP and Flamethrowers with lvl 3 everything. Tie tech to map control - if you lose control of the map you lose some tech.
<!--quoteo(post=1910868:date=Mar 7 2012, 02:33 AM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Mar 7 2012, 02:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While reading this epic thread. I think I thought of an elegant solution to these problems
The issue seems to be to many special items/life forms flood the game once available. My idea was to add in a simple timer that produces items rather than increasing their cost. (timings are listed reference points)
Research a weapon type 3 of them are available immediately from the armory after research completes Once a stored weapon have been removed from the armory it will build 1 new weapon of that type every (X) 30 seconds Armory will store a maximum of 3 of each weapon type like a gun rack. Advanced armory produces quicker and stores 5 weapons You still use PRES to buy weapons.
The same theory could be added to hives. But I think it would work best if you untie life forms from hives. Storing life forms like the armory stores guns. limiting how many life forms are running around tied to number of hives.
Life forms still cost PRES but they are only available once the life form timer has reached 0 and stored that life form in the hive. Skulks 0 seconds 1 Gorge every 45 seconds 1 Lerk every 120 seconds 1 fade every 180 Seconds 1 Onos every 240 seconds
1 Hive supports (X) life forms (upkeep idea) (Life forms untied from hives) Unlimited Skulks 3 Gorges 2 Lerks 2 Fades 1 Onos
More hives the more life form support slots. This way you can't have 6 fades flying around till you have 3 hives. 4 Hives unlimited life form slots
I hope you like the idea or tear it to shreads and something good comes out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would rather go with swalks idea than this one. This is simply a different way to patch a problem that lies in the core mechanics.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1911061:date=Mar 7 2012, 03:52 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 7 2012, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911061"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens turtling means they have skulks and lerks, with missing upgrades. Marines turtling means they still have JP and Flamethrowers with lvl 3 everything. Tie tech to map control - if you lose control of the map you lose some tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well thats obviously the core problem of marine turtling and why alien turtling is not nearly as effective. i think this will become again relevant once exosuit and minigun is in, and marines will turtle with those new tools. At this time aliens will have all of their missing upgrades and abilities, so it's difficult to judge how big of a problem this will be right now, but you pointed out here a fundamental problem and i agree that at least some further thinking should go into that problem, if that's really desired and should stay like that.
i was always supporting the idea of untieing command stations from tech points, but tie the tech structures to them. So you would need to build an arms lab, robotics factory or observatory (those are now just random structures and not really thought out) on the tech point. that would allow creative relocation places for marines and would deny tech (like aliens) once losing territory . Most of my recent ideas violate the previous design decisions, so don't take any of them too serious ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1911067:date=Mar 7 2012, 04:18 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Mar 7 2012, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well thats obviously the core problem of marine turtling and why alien turtling is not nearly as effective. i think this will become again relevant once exosuit and minigun is in, and marines will turtle with those new tools. At this time aliens will have all of their missing upgrades and abilities, so it's difficult to judge how big of a problem this will be right now, but you pointed out here a fundamental problem and i agree that at least some further thinking should go into that problem, if that's really desired and should stay like that.
i was always supporting the idea of untieing command stations from tech points, but tie the tech structures to them. So you would need to build an arms lab, robotics factory or observatory (those are now just random structures and not really thought out) on the tech point. that would allow creative relocation places for marines and would deny tech (like aliens) once losing territory . Most of my recent ideas violate the previous design decisions, so don't take any of them too serious ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm, I think the marine tech tree would need a complete overhaul to work that way since right now it's very linear. Personally I think the marines having tech independent of the number of bases creates good asymmetry between the teams - aliens have a stronger focus on territory control. There should be some stronger incentive for marines to expand though other than CC energy, I'm just not sure what would be best.
If there's a problem with turtling it's either aliens not being good enough at breaking the base, or marines not being affected enough by res starvation(namely, guns being re-used forever). I feel that guns should take damage as the marine dies so after once or twice they break and can't be re-used again.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
thanks for the reply, Schimmel!! I'm so happy to see a dev notice this fundamental problem, i have a list of points /ideas in regards to this, as i have given it a lot of thought, if you are interested PM me and i'll share so as not to derail this thread too much. (per request of OP)
did i mention i love community involvement with this team? well i do. :-D
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
hey swalk, thought you'd find this relevant, seems someone has noticed this before: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113882&view=findpost&p=1855514" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1855514</a>
Ofc uwe knows the problem, but we only see treating the symptoms instead of the cause...
Like how they fixed mine spam, they made mines weaker, more expensive, destroyable by pretty much any lifeform, and the explosion delay is so long that you can even run over them without getting hit as skulk.
If you dont want to touch the resource system mechanic the only way to fix spam is either making costs extreme, or weaken the dmg - or a mix of both.
This problem didnt exist in that form because in ns1 there was only one pool of res, and you made a tradeoff unit strenght vs. fast tech/better economy. While there is a tradeoff if you make a full team lerk rush in ns2 in the early game, its not as big of a deal - especially since skulks have to be viable til lategame... so in case the lerk rush fails you wont delay your 2nd hive you only delay fading by a bit depending how well you did. (its totally possible to play only with skulks til this point)
I dont want to say its not somehow possible to fix everything going this route, but the alternatives mentioned might be easier, faster and you dont have to be as gimped compared to ns1 counterparts.
Maybe its just missing tech, and some bad balance values here and there that makes me believe something more extreme needs to happen.
Comments
Risingsun is PROPOSING this change, not stating what it is currently.
everyone is on the same page basically now: We're <b>not nerfing</b> the MASS TECH, we're <b><u>specializing </u>them so they are useless IF they are spammed.</b>
the game has already <b>attempted </b>to do this so far.. it just needs to be corrected a bit more.
Imagine 6 fades in marine base, totally useless against destroying structures but exceptional at killing marines? those turrets would finally pay off, and marines can still have a chance of spawning in to fight since the structures cant be destroyed by them. (can even increase the dmg turrets do to fades to dissuade them from this tactic, as well as the proposed telefragging scardybob and me propose.)
basically we're saying the game is already built on this rock, paper, scissor mechanic in a loose form, were saying promote and increase it further to make MASS TECHING a losing strategy EVERY TIME.
make more sense?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My bad, I misunderstood him.
But how would you decrease the effectiveness of massed units without decreasing effectiveness of the single units?
I can't see how you would do that. Decrease damage output by how many % of the players having the lifeform?
I wouldn't like that, as it would scale badly with the very lategame(where a (almost) full team of fades, or whatever you want <u>should</u> be accessable, and useful)
All my suggestion does is to make these mass strategies a bit more expensive, but still viable as all-in's.
Now these mass tactics are not really all-in's at all, you can do it easily, and get away with it.
I don't like the idea of telefragging.
It's just plain annoying getting telefragged by a mistake, because you was one unit too close to the phase gate/IP.
Try to re-imagine your scenario with 6 fades in the base, turrets can't really hurt them much, due to blink.
Kill all the marines, take turns regenerating/killing the IPs and spawning marines. GG.
Fades are not ineffective against structures, they still do damage, they are just a little less effective than other classes at that specific task. Due to the <u>soft</u> rock paper scissor mechanics implemented.
That doesn't mean that the ability to mass them after a few minutes is not a problem.
In a 6v6 it's no problem at all to get a lerk a gorge and 4 fades.
And the point where the 4 fades pop(maybe 5 after a bit of time, if the lerk died), at the same time, every single game, needs a change.
Like the rest of the related issues I've listed in this thread.
Massing can be in the game, but it should be high risk/high reward. Not low risk/high reward. You pay more, to mass.
If it's more expensive to pop more(than one) of the same lifeforms, then it will probably often pay more off, taking a lower lifeform.
Same applies to weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1910734:date=Mar 6 2012, 04:30 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Mar 6 2012, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But how would you decrease the effectiveness of massed units without decreasing effectiveness of the single units?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you dont decrease their effectiveness in regards to their role. take the fade for instance, he's supposed to focus on hit and run tactics against marines only. hes already good at that. now make his ability to damage structures much weaker to useless, and your scenario of 6 fades being able to destroy the IPs would not be able to happen. (especially if some electrifying, telefragging equivalent is put in place) you would need some lerks in there to bile bomb (ugh dont get me started on that proposed changed.) and some gorges to heal and some skulks to harass etc. obviously i suggest for marines to make the shotgun the fade counter, and make the shotgun useless against lerks, so that you need that variance to win.<b> Its not nerfing, its specializing, which is already in place - just not effectively enough.</b> This is why the gorge is not great at killing marines, and why the GL is not effective against lerks.
<!--quoteo(post=1910734:date=Mar 6 2012, 04:30 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Mar 6 2012, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the point where the 4 fades pop(maybe 5 after a bit of time, if the lerk died), at the same time, every single game, needs a change.
Massing can be in the game, but it should be high risk/high reward. Not low risk/high reward. You pay more, to mass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) implement the idea i suggested regarding Pres being acquired from actual input from the player, as in teamwork and following orders etc, it would solve this issue by rewarding better players (not KD) for their actions, as Risingsun said: <i>" An even spread of Res guarantees what Swalk is talking about. More ups and downs of res would create enough of a gap that not everyone would be purchasing in that "surge". "</i> this would replace the current requirement, which is merely <b><u>TIME</u></b>, and that is why you get such a surge.
2) massing can be in the game, but should be made to be a losing strategy. why should six, 10res gorges be able to decimate a fully teched based? they shouldnt. it should require TEAMWORK based on specialty. (imagine the organized matches you play in, where the comm says "you are going lerk" "you are going fade" etc.. the assigning of roles works for a reason, we should encourage this as its what the game is based on, much like a balanced TF2 game.)
good topic, btw.
We all agree (well most of us) that massing any one lifeform/weapon is a bad thing and undesirable. I think that attempting to make it more difficult (or costly) to do this will only restrict and/or frustrate players. Instead we should be considering ways to promote synergies between lifeforms and weapons so that they encourage diversity. If teams are better off strategically and/or tactically with a diversity of lifeforms/weapons then there is no need for massing.
Another take on the above situation would be to have alien and marine players play an integral role in developing technology for both races, by dumping resources to gain access to certain technologies. One of the best gameplay aspects of NS1 aliens was the integral role players performed in developing their teams tech tree. This means that to develop technologically some players must sacrifice their ability to buy weapons/lifeforms.
If you want to make an equal distribution of lifeforms/weapons vital, the best thing to do is to build in near-crippling weaknesses into them.
Here's a hypothetical example: A Fade without Shadow Step runs into serious problems when it hits an FT; it needs a Lerk (range) or Skulk (energy abundance) by its side to clear him out and mulch his team. Without one, it runs the serious risk of running out of energy and getting gunned down. Thus, Fades are good, but a team full of Fades will get Flamed and Shotgunned into sucking.
I know people are sick of the TF2 analogy, but it's a game that's managed to make each class powerful while making an overabundance of any class worthless (except heavy, but back in Vanilla they were much slower and more vulnerable; they got ripped apart with no quick classes to cover them) by carefully leaving large holes in each class' abilities.
Im glad we can all talk out our ideas civilly. I truly appreciate it. onward:
Isnt there different damage types in game? Piercing, slashing, and such? Making the marine weapons highly effective against say the skulk who has low armor but less effective against the lerk who has more would be easy. I like where Iron is going with this. It isnt that you CANT kill a onos with a shotgun instead of HMG but it should be damn hard. I never want to remove the slight possibility, just make it undesirable.
Res can solve it self two of multiple ways. Allows for Iron's res gains and restructure damage types so each weapon has a specific use and situation it excels in but also one that it is terrible. That way you NEED other weapon types. The rifle being the one gun (since it is default) that is ok at everything but excels at nothing.
Lifeforms have Life and armor as we all know. ROUGH MATH INCOMING:
Rifle does 10 damage per bullet to Life, but 5 damage to armor.
Shotgun does 4 damage per pellet (10 pellets per shot) to life , 6 damage per pellet to armor, but 2 damage per pellet buildings. (not sure about the shotgun shell mechanic so i cant accurately balance this)
GL does 5 damage to life, 5 damage to armor, 50 damage to buildings (rough guess but would scale to building health which i dont know the values. Say damage as is now)
HMG 25 damage per bullet to life, 10 damage per bullet to armor, 2 damage per bullet to buildings. (Rate of Fire of course being 2-4 times faster than the Rifle)
Flame 5 damage to life per second, 25 damage per second to armor, and 10 damage per second to buildings.
Again values are just to illustrate a point. I could do the same to the alien classes with abilities thrown in but why do all that when this is a discussion about what to do not what we WILL do. :P
We all agree (well most of us) that massing any one lifeform/weapon is a bad thing and undesirable. I think that attempting to make it more difficult (or costly) to do this will only restrict and/or frustrate players. Instead we should be considering ways to promote synergies between lifeforms and weapons so that they encourage diversity. If teams are better off strategically and/or tactically with a diversity of lifeforms/weapons then there is no need for massing.
Another take on the above situation would be to have alien and marine players play an integral role in developing technology for both races, by dumping resources to gain access to certain technologies. One of the best game play aspects of NS1 aliens was the integral role players performed in developing their teams tech tree. This means that to develop technologically some players must sacrifice their ability to buy weapons/lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is well said. There is a problem right now how to make the new res system work that way, we don't really have other games to fallback on since ns2 is kinda on its own. With all the changes ns2 has made it has already gone far away from many of the core ns1 mechanics.
---
One of the problems with ns2 right now it simply copied many ns1 mechanics instead of reworking them. I'm surprised if they expected everything to fit perfectly together with the new ns2 mechanics(the new res system, power system, infestation etc). Currently mass weapons will always be an option for the game, and it won't change if the res system stays the same. Its basically build into the core of the game. That's why we are kinda forced to go for the other solution, make diversity more rewarding and have more ways for players to spend their res.
So like I have said earlier, the mass weapons is not the problem because the game is build that way, the problem lies in the resource system and it will be really hard to balance it. But it is possible and might turn out good, but we have no idea how much time it will take.
---
If possible I would like to prevent hard counters, I'm more for soft counters like it is now. I think it would hurt the game if everything needed specific equipment/lifeform to counter the other team.
---
I saw a good point earlier about one of the problems with fades. Marines kinda need to have armor 2 by the 6 min mark or they will die in 2 hits. I think marines should be able to take 3 hits from a fade with lvl 1 armor.
Reduce the rate that personal resources are given by half (maybe even 3/4) and bring back resources for kills and possibly add resource points for kill assists (If tf2 can detect assists, I would hope NS2 could too). Reward resources for killing enemy structures and give resource points for assisting in destroying of enemy structures so players don't try to screw others over by last hitting structures to steal the resource points (If marine commander recycles, then aliens should be rewarded with half the resource points). Cysts/power nodes shouldn't give resource points though unless they're both seriously buffed to compensate. Resource nodes would also become even <b>more</b> competitive to secure than they are now because of how scarce passive resource gain would become.
That should help reduce turtling strategies. It would also space out when people upgrade their weapons/life forms. Making resource points harder to come by should also help increase team play mentality as dying would feel punishing and no-one would want to lose their weapon/life-form, so they would feel more inclined to want to stick with other members of their team because of it. The better and more team oriented players would be rewarded by being able to upgrade faster.
Still feel though the game could benefit by giving weapons/life-forms more structured specializations.
Some things would have to change a little to adjust to the slower resource gains. Gorge's structure costs would have to be reduced. Lerks* would have to become a bit beefier and a bit stronger, but other than that everything else could mostly stay the same.
*I'm seriously advocating stronger lerk units because as Kham I wish I had the choice of either being able to go upgrades first or rushing the second hive. Right now its rush second hive for fades before marines can earn armor 2 so it doesn't become an instant loss because one hive life-forms are just too weak to move on to mid-game.
If you want to make an equal distribution of lifeforms/weapons vital, the best thing to do is to build in near-crippling weaknesses into them.
Here's a hypothetical example: A Fade without Shadow Step runs into serious problems when it hits an FT; it needs a Lerk (range) or Skulk (energy abundance) by its side to clear him out and mulch his team. Without one, it runs the serious risk of running out of energy and getting gunned down. Thus, Fades are good, but a team full of Fades will get Flamed and Shotgunned into sucking.
I know people are sick of the TF2 analogy, but it's a game that's managed to make each class powerful while making an overabundance of any class worthless (except heavy, but back in Vanilla they were much slower and more vulnerable; they got ripped apart with no quick classes to cover them) by carefully leaving large holes in each class' abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It'a also a game I entirely loathe because there is zero point in me playing it.
Winning or losing is determined not by my input, but by what enemy I run into. If a demoman attacks my sentry, it dies. if a pyro sees my spy, it dies, if a heavy is in the same place as my scout, it dies.
Why am I playing the game when my input amounts to moving the character to the next dice roll to determine victory or defeat?
Except to collect hats, of course, that's a vital game mechanic.
The issue seems to be to many special items/life forms flood the game once available.
My idea was to add in a simple timer that produces items rather than increasing their cost. (timings are listed reference points)
Research a weapon type
3 of them are available immediately from the armory after research completes
Once a stored weapon have been removed from the armory it will build 1 new weapon of that type every (X) 30 seconds
Armory will store a maximum of 3 of each weapon type like a gun rack.
Advanced armory produces quicker and stores 5 weapons
You still use PRES to buy weapons.
The same theory could be added to hives. But I think it would work best if you untie life forms from hives. Storing life forms like the armory stores guns. limiting how many life forms are running around tied to number of hives.
Life forms still cost PRES but they are only available once the life form timer has reached 0 and stored that life form in the hive.
Skulks 0 seconds
1 Gorge every 45 seconds
1 Lerk every 120 seconds
1 fade every 180 Seconds
1 Onos every 240 seconds
1 Hive supports (X) life forms (upkeep idea) (Life forms untied from hives)
Unlimited Skulks
3 Gorges
2 Lerks
2 Fades
1 Onos
More hives the more life form support slots.
This way you can't have 6 fades flying around till you have 3 hives.
4 Hives unlimited life form slots
I hope you like the idea or tear it to shreads and something good comes out of it.
The issue seems to be to many special items/life forms flood the game once available.
My idea was to add in a simple timer that produces items rather than increasing their cost. (timings are listed reference points)
Research a weapon type
3 of them are available immediately from the armory after research completes
Once a stored weapon have been removed from the armory it will build 1 new weapon of that type every (X) 30 seconds
Armory will store a maximum of 3 of each weapon type like a gun rack.
Advanced armory produces quicker and stores 5 weapons
You still use PRES to buy weapons.
The same theory could be added to hives. But I think it would work best if you untie life forms from hives. Storing life forms like the armory stores guns. limiting how many life forms are running around tied to number of hives.
Life forms still cost PRES but they are only available once the life form timer has reached 0 and stored that life form in the hive.
Skulks 0 seconds
1 Gorge every 45 seconds
1 Lerk every 120 seconds
1 fade every 180 Seconds
1 Onos every 240 seconds
1 Hive supports (X) life forms (upkeep idea) (Life forms untied from hives)
Unlimited Skulks
3 Gorges
2 Lerks
2 Fades
1 Onos
More hives the more life form support slots.
This way you can't have 6 fades flying around till you have 3 hives.
4 Hives unlimited life form slots
I hope you like the idea or tear it to shreads and something good comes out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While a good idea. It sounds like it would be a balancing nightmare. Someone new on aliens goes fade because they have the resources and proceeds to die two seconds later. That fade spot is gone.
Someone new on Marines goes shotgun and proceeds to die two seconds later. That's fine, someone else will just pick it up.
I've been in games where Aliens were egg limited, I would hate to see the same for higher life-forms.
---
Really, the problem is personal resources. Pres needs to be slowed WAY down.
The issue seems to be to many special items/life forms flood the game once available.
My idea was to add in a simple timer that produces items rather than increasing their cost. (timings are listed reference points)
Research a weapon type
3 of them are available immediately from the armory after research completes
Once a stored weapon have been removed from the armory it will build 1 new weapon of that type every (X) 30 seconds
Armory will store a maximum of 3 of each weapon type like a gun rack.
Advanced armory produces quicker and stores 5 weapons
You still use PRES to buy weapons.
The same theory could be added to hives. But I think it would work best if you untie life forms from hives. Storing life forms like the armory stores guns. limiting how many life forms are running around tied to number of hives.
Life forms still cost PRES but they are only available once the life form timer has reached 0 and stored that life form in the hive.
Skulks 0 seconds
1 Gorge every 45 seconds
1 Lerk every 120 seconds
1 fade every 180 Seconds
1 Onos every 240 seconds
1 Hive supports (X) life forms (upkeep idea) (Life forms untied from hives)
Unlimited Skulks
3 Gorges
2 Lerks
2 Fades
1 Onos
More hives the more life form support slots.
This way you can't have 6 fades flying around till you have 3 hives.
4 Hives unlimited life form slots
I hope you like the idea or tear it to shreads and something good comes out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a neat idea for competitive games, but it would absolutely fail in pub games. New people taking the only fade for 3 minutes? Bad shooters taking all the shotguns?
An idea like this is for people early game be calling out their roles like they did in NS1 and you have till you aquire the PRES for the said life form.
Also 2 fades at 1 hive with a new one avalible evey 2 minutes. Your team is out matched if you could not hold them off.
4 fades at 2 hives that newbie is more likely to practice then or direct them to do so then.
That fade spot is only gone while he is alive, if he dies it become available again and you could have aliens timer counting down while all slots are filled it just doesn't let you evolve till he dies and if he is new that won't be too long.
New players will always balls stuff up because they are new you can't design complex games around that.
The issue seems to be to many special items/life forms flood the game once available.
My idea was to add in a simple timer that produces items rather than increasing their cost. (timings are listed reference points)
Research a weapon type
3 of them are available immediately from the armory after research completes
Once a stored weapon have been removed from the armory it will build 1 new weapon of that type every (X) 30 seconds
Armory will store a maximum of 3 of each weapon type like a gun rack.
Advanced armory produces quicker and stores 5 weapons
You still use PRES to buy weapons.
The same theory could be added to hives. But I think it would work best if you untie life forms from hives. Storing life forms like the armory stores guns. limiting how many life forms are running around tied to number of hives.
Life forms still cost PRES but they are only available once the life form timer has reached 0 and stored that life form in the hive.
Skulks 0 seconds
1 Gorge every 45 seconds
1 Lerk every 120 seconds
1 fade every 180 Seconds
1 Onos every 240 seconds
1 Hive supports (X) life forms (upkeep idea) (Life forms untied from hives)
Unlimited Skulks
3 Gorges
2 Lerks
2 Fades
1 Onos
More hives the more life form support slots.
This way you can't have 6 fades flying around till you have 3 hives.
4 Hives unlimited life form slots
I hope you like the idea or tear it to shreads and something good comes out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Putting in hard limits, like limiting to amount of hives, does not scale with playernumbers.
I believe one of NS2's goals is to scale with playernumbers, as NS1 didn't do that very well.
That's why I purposed to have the cost scale with percentage of players having lifeform/weapon X.
It scales with all playernumbers, and increases the amount of resources required to mass.
While synergy is important, I don't think it will <b>ever</b> solve this issue.
I wouldn't like to see the <u>soft</u> rock paper scissor become <u>hard</u> rock paper scissor.
That's hard counters, UWE don't want hard counters. I wouldn't like it either, not in a RTS/FPS.
So, what are the options?
I have yet to see a suggestion that adresses it like mine, and scales with playernumbers as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1910879:date=Mar 7 2012, 08:48 AM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Mar 7 2012, 08:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The RFK idea actually could work well, as it would separate the timings a good bit. I miss RFK as it rewards skillful and smart play with weapons/lifeforms, ESP as aliens. You could slow the extractor personal resource rates and make it a fixed rate RFK to eliminate some of the old issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could add RFK on top of my suggestion, if players runs out of PRes too easily.
However, as you say, it would indeed need to be a fixed number, instead of random 1-3.
I think 1 RFK would fit better for NS2.
However, I wouldn't like the see the extractors become less <u>directly</u> affecting ground players. ie. slower PRes income.
Extractors should be very important for both ground players, and the commander, imo.
The issue seems to be to many special items/life forms flood the game once available.
My idea was to add in a simple timer that produces items rather than increasing their cost. (timings are listed reference points)
Research a weapon type
3 of them are available immediately from the armory after research completes
Once a stored weapon have been removed from the armory it will build 1 new weapon of that type every (X) 30 seconds
Armory will store a maximum of 3 of each weapon type like a gun rack.
Advanced armory produces quicker and stores 5 weapons
You still use PRES to buy weapons.
The same theory could be added to hives. But I think it would work best if you untie life forms from hives. Storing life forms like the armory stores guns. limiting how many life forms are running around tied to number of hives.
Life forms still cost PRES but they are only available once the life form timer has reached 0 and stored that life form in the hive.
Skulks 0 seconds
1 Gorge every 45 seconds
1 Lerk every 120 seconds
1 fade every 180 Seconds
1 Onos every 240 seconds
1 Hive supports (X) life forms (upkeep idea) (Life forms untied from hives)
Unlimited Skulks
3 Gorges
2 Lerks
2 Fades
1 Onos
More hives the more life form support slots.
This way you can't have 6 fades flying around till you have 3 hives.
4 Hives unlimited life form slots
I hope you like the idea or tear it to shreads and something good comes out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally have never liked hard caps. Counter Strike saw this with the one shot one kill AWP. It was ridiculous. I think there is a better solution in making it a disavantage for having a team full of fades or at least very very risky (an All In type of deal).
Edit* Swalk, my idea with the hard rock paper scissor, your idea with supply and demand, and other idea of limited outflow. All of these are drastic solutions. All of these force the player to play a certain way and i think we can do better.
Let's just look at what would happen if we made certain soft counters:
Untie lifeforms from hive - More emphasis on RTs and keeping them up for more res flow and faster lifeforms. Add RFK into this and we have people popping higher lifeforms at different times. Make shotguns default but start the marines out with a lot less Pres.
Now make each class fun and useful like in NS1 and make the class actually worth the res. I think we are also bumping heads with UWE's idea of more units but not as powerful. With this idea in mind everything purchased a lot should be nerfed till it isnt unfortunately.
I would like to see instead of nerfing something make the other options more appealing.
Editx2* Also there will be a problem when Flayra puts in that cool system of lifeform evolution. Buy the gorge with Pres and the Lerk costs 10res less and so on. This will further the everyone pops fade and even encourage everyone to go to higher lifeforms instead of sticking with the class they have because it is needed.
There should always be a reason to have a lerk, gorge, or even skulk around.
Nooooo i have so many problems with this idea that i have tried to explain to everyone over the course of like 4 threads lol
must notably is encouraging turtling with a singular, HEAVILY fortified base, instead of having your tech spread throughout the map as aliens currently do.
not to mention the other issues that come with it like spawning and aliens viewing putting up a 2nd hive to be "not economical" as marines do currently since the techpoint importance was removed. (so the only point in techpoints would be relocation? ugh.)
map control should include hurting the enemy team's tech besides determing <b>WHEN </b>it occurs, since its required to EARN the tech in the first place. otherwise, it would be akin to building an arms lab, fully upgrading it, it being destroyed and having all the perks still.
(example is slightly flawed because the arms lab is already in that mentioned HEAVILY fortified base, so if aliens were in that area they would be focusing on the CC or powernode, but his only proves my point: without tech being able to be damaged through map control, you are going to have major turtling at any stage of the game!)
edit: unless you have a requirement of "need X amount of resource points at any given time to be capable of teching up to X lifeform" then it will work, but you will still have the issue of over developed bases
must notably is encouraging turtling with a singular, HEAVILY fortified base, instead of having your tech spread throughout the map as aliens currently do.
not to mention the other issues that come with it like spawning and aliens viewing putting up a 2nd hive to be "not economical" as marines do currently since the techpoint importance was removed. (so the only point in techpoints would be relocation? ugh.)
map control should include hurting the enemy team's tech besides determing <b>WHEN </b>it occurs, since its required to EARN the tech in the first place. otherwise, it would be akin to building an arms lab, fully upgrading it, it being destroyed and having all the perks still.
(example is slightly flawed because the arms lab is already in that mentioned HEAVILY fortified base, so if aliens were in that area they would be focusing on the CC or powernode, but his only proves my point: without tech being able to be damaged through map control, you are going to have major turtling at any stage of the game!)
edit: unless you have a requirement of "need X amount of resource points at any given time to be capable of teching up to X lifeform" then it will work, but you will still have the issue of over developed bases<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didnt mean this as the sole fix. I understand what you mean and my suggestion does seem to promote what you are saying. So let me hit it from a different angle. Once all the chambers are in they will give alien the option to create a hive based on those tactics. Defense hive, energy hive, and cloak hive. One by itself will not be enough and the second set of chambers/strategies it unlocks should be the reason aliens push for that second hive, not lifeforms. In NS1 you have the movement hive which was widely accepted as hive 1 due to the teleport between hives ability and celerity. Sensory offered an interesting risky strat that forced you to get hive two fast due to marines being able to out tech you and the defense hive that was a solid safe hive though lacked quick movement.
This is the piece we are still missing. A BIG chunk of alien gameplay. This is why i think UWE hasnt acted yet or even commented in this post. In the mean time for balance they linked the lifeforms to the hive to have that second hive incentive. Chambers will give you all the incentive you need and will allow for lifeforms to be unlocked. Then you will see those marines taking over hive locations (if it goes back to 4 a map. Too many locations are hard to lock down so marines dont bother.)
@Muyeah: if you are referring to what i said in that last sentence all you need to do is <b>a)</b> re read it<b> b)</b> notice almost every marine game played , to see that gaining res needed for teching up still requires <b>some </b>map control, yes, (technically you only need the RT you start with on a long enough timeline) but that all of your tech remains in a singular location so you still an over developed base like i said. i.e. <u>turtling</u>.
<b>edit</b>: Aliens turtling means they have skulks and lerks, with missing upgrades. Marines turtling means they still have JP and Flamethrowers with lvl 3 everything. Tie tech to map control - if you lose control of the map you lose some tech.
The issue seems to be to many special items/life forms flood the game once available.
My idea was to add in a simple timer that produces items rather than increasing their cost. (timings are listed reference points)
Research a weapon type
3 of them are available immediately from the armory after research completes
Once a stored weapon have been removed from the armory it will build 1 new weapon of that type every (X) 30 seconds
Armory will store a maximum of 3 of each weapon type like a gun rack.
Advanced armory produces quicker and stores 5 weapons
You still use PRES to buy weapons.
The same theory could be added to hives. But I think it would work best if you untie life forms from hives. Storing life forms like the armory stores guns. limiting how many life forms are running around tied to number of hives.
Life forms still cost PRES but they are only available once the life form timer has reached 0 and stored that life form in the hive.
Skulks 0 seconds
1 Gorge every 45 seconds
1 Lerk every 120 seconds
1 fade every 180 Seconds
1 Onos every 240 seconds
1 Hive supports (X) life forms (upkeep idea) (Life forms untied from hives)
Unlimited Skulks
3 Gorges
2 Lerks
2 Fades
1 Onos
More hives the more life form support slots.
This way you can't have 6 fades flying around till you have 3 hives.
4 Hives unlimited life form slots
I hope you like the idea or tear it to shreads and something good comes out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would rather go with swalks idea than this one. This is simply a different way to patch a problem that lies in the core mechanics.
well thats obviously the core problem of marine turtling and why alien turtling is not nearly as effective. i think this will become again relevant once exosuit and minigun is in, and marines will turtle with those new tools. At this time aliens will have all of their missing upgrades and abilities, so it's difficult to judge how big of a problem this will be right now, but you pointed out here a fundamental problem and i agree that at least some further thinking should go into that problem, if that's really desired and should stay like that.
i was always supporting the idea of untieing command stations from tech points, but tie the tech structures to them. So you would need to build an arms lab, robotics factory or observatory (those are now just random structures and not really thought out) on the tech point. that would allow creative relocation places for marines and would deny tech (like aliens) once losing territory . Most of my recent ideas violate the previous design decisions, so don't take any of them too serious ;)
i was always supporting the idea of untieing command stations from tech points, but tie the tech structures to them. So you would need to build an arms lab, robotics factory or observatory (those are now just random structures and not really thought out) on the tech point. that would allow creative relocation places for marines and would deny tech (like aliens) once losing territory . Most of my recent ideas violate the previous design decisions, so don't take any of them too serious ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, I think the marine tech tree would need a complete overhaul to work that way since right now it's very linear. Personally I think the marines having tech independent of the number of bases creates good asymmetry between the teams - aliens have a stronger focus on territory control. There should be some stronger incentive for marines to expand though other than CC energy, I'm just not sure what would be best.
If there's a problem with turtling it's either aliens not being good enough at breaking the base, or marines not being affected enough by res starvation(namely, guns being re-used forever). I feel that guns should take damage as the marine dies so after once or twice they break and can't be re-used again.
I'm so happy to see a dev notice this fundamental problem, i have a list of points /ideas in regards to this, as i have given it a lot of thought, if you are interested PM me and i'll share so as not to derail this thread too much. (per request of OP)
did i mention i love community involvement with this team? well i do. :-D
3-3 upgrades
Advanced Armory (therefore GLs, Flamers, Jetpacks)
Exosuit
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113882&view=findpost&p=1855514" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1855514</a>
Like how they fixed mine spam, they made mines weaker, more expensive, destroyable by pretty much any lifeform, and the explosion delay is so long that you can even run over them without getting hit as skulk.
If you dont want to touch the resource system mechanic the only way to fix spam is either making costs extreme, or weaken the dmg - or a mix of both.
This problem didnt exist in that form because in ns1 there was only one pool of res, and you made a tradeoff unit strenght vs. fast tech/better economy. While there is a tradeoff if you make a full team lerk rush in ns2 in the early game, its not as big of a deal - especially since skulks have to be viable til lategame... so in case the lerk rush fails you wont delay your 2nd hive you only delay fading by a bit depending how well you did. (its totally possible to play only with skulks til this point)
I dont want to say its not somehow possible to fix everything going this route, but the alternatives mentioned might be easier, faster and you dont have to be as gimped compared to ns1 counterparts.
Maybe its just missing tech, and some bad balance values here and there that makes me believe something more extreme needs to happen.