Fade shadow step
thefonz
Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
<div class="IPBDescription">interesting but problematic</div>So I was toying around with the shadow step last night and I have a few comments.
1) No energy cost to shadow step / increased blink energy cost
This one is a double edged sword. 'Free' shadow stepping is really just a BIG speed increase for the fade. I was spamming it to cross the map considerably faster than I could if I had only used normal movement. I'm gonna assume that was not intended for shadow step. Also, the increased blink cost has really decreased the amount of time I can spend in combat with my fade. I blink a lot and I find 'real' blinking to be MUCH more useful than shadow stepping in combat (with admittedly very little time trying out shadow stepping when compared to all the blinking experience I have). This is simply because I have much more control with a 'real' blink.
--- IMO1: Return blink to its previous energy cost and make shadow stepping cost the same energy cost (or slightly less if you want to make shadow step have a difference/advantage over regular blinking) that it would take to blink the same distance. I get the feeling that this is something you would have considered when designing shadow step and probably have reason why its not this way, but I wanted to offer my opinion.
2) Double tap to activate
This one kills me, literally. Maybe I'm unusual compared to how most people play but, I FREQUENTLY tap my movement keys when I am trying to achieve fine control of my movement. Let me highlight what I mean with an example that happened to me. I was trying to position myself (as a fade of course) right around a corner so ambush the marines that I knew were coming. Naturally, I tapped my movement keys to get into position. Shadow step kicked in and poofed me well past the corner. I was quickly shot to pieces, most un-fun. I also accidentally shadow stepped off the edge in crevice while fighting marines. That time I got lucky and blinked to the wall and got wedged in a corner so I wouldn't fall to death. Once my energy was full, I blinked back up to crevice. However, going back to point (1), I barely had enough energy to get beck up to the pathway in crevice due to the significantly increase energy cost of blink in B199.
--- IMO2: Take shadow step off the movement keys, fine control of movement is WAY too important in NS2. I would use a quick double tap of the right mouse button to shadow step in the direction of the currently held movement keys. Another key (caplock, alt, shift, ect.) could be used as well, but I think right click makes more sense and shadow step and blink are so closely related. Click and hold would be the normal blink as it is now.
-How I would imagine it to work
Give blink a short minimum duration.
If the double click occurs within the duration -> its a shadow step. in the direction of the currently held movement keys.
If the first click is released without a second click -> its a short blink.
If the first click is held past the duration -> its a blink, keep calm and blink on.
If after the first click the duration passes and a second click occurs -> the player made an oopsie, they get two short blinks.
On second thought, shadow step seems so quick that it may not be possible form many people to click that quickly so here is an alternative idea. This idea also addresses the frequent complaints that it is too easy for fades to get away. I don't necessarily believe that, but this idea affects both issues anyway.
Give blink a short minimum <b>delay</b>.
If the double click occurs within the delay -> its a shadow step. in the direction of the currently held movement keys.
If the first click is released without a second click -> its a short blink.
If the first click is held past the delay -> its a blink, keep calm and blink on.
If after the first click the delay passes and a second click occurs -> the player made an oopsie, they get two short blinks.
EDIT: A quick click and release could be a good way to trigger shadow step.
i.e.
if right click is held under say 0.2s -. shadow step in the direction of the currently held movement keys
if its held beyond 0.2s -> its a blink
This still has the problem of the game trying to distinguish between blinks and shadow steps. The threshold fore releasing the click would need to be very short so the game doesn't think its a blink and start to move you in the wrong direction only to then have to correct because you wanted a shadow step to the right.
Just my 37 cents.
As always, its great to see the progress you guys have been making.
EDIT : Forgot to mention that shadow step has activated for me at times when I did not double tap. Its possible I let off the key incompletely and pressed down again, or my PC / the server had a hiccup or lag spike that caused it.
Similar key press things have happened to me in other games, so it may just be my keyboard or something. But others have told me of the same experience, so it is worth mentioning
1) No energy cost to shadow step / increased blink energy cost
This one is a double edged sword. 'Free' shadow stepping is really just a BIG speed increase for the fade. I was spamming it to cross the map considerably faster than I could if I had only used normal movement. I'm gonna assume that was not intended for shadow step. Also, the increased blink cost has really decreased the amount of time I can spend in combat with my fade. I blink a lot and I find 'real' blinking to be MUCH more useful than shadow stepping in combat (with admittedly very little time trying out shadow stepping when compared to all the blinking experience I have). This is simply because I have much more control with a 'real' blink.
--- IMO1: Return blink to its previous energy cost and make shadow stepping cost the same energy cost (or slightly less if you want to make shadow step have a difference/advantage over regular blinking) that it would take to blink the same distance. I get the feeling that this is something you would have considered when designing shadow step and probably have reason why its not this way, but I wanted to offer my opinion.
2) Double tap to activate
This one kills me, literally. Maybe I'm unusual compared to how most people play but, I FREQUENTLY tap my movement keys when I am trying to achieve fine control of my movement. Let me highlight what I mean with an example that happened to me. I was trying to position myself (as a fade of course) right around a corner so ambush the marines that I knew were coming. Naturally, I tapped my movement keys to get into position. Shadow step kicked in and poofed me well past the corner. I was quickly shot to pieces, most un-fun. I also accidentally shadow stepped off the edge in crevice while fighting marines. That time I got lucky and blinked to the wall and got wedged in a corner so I wouldn't fall to death. Once my energy was full, I blinked back up to crevice. However, going back to point (1), I barely had enough energy to get beck up to the pathway in crevice due to the significantly increase energy cost of blink in B199.
--- IMO2: Take shadow step off the movement keys, fine control of movement is WAY too important in NS2. I would use a quick double tap of the right mouse button to shadow step in the direction of the currently held movement keys. Another key (caplock, alt, shift, ect.) could be used as well, but I think right click makes more sense and shadow step and blink are so closely related. Click and hold would be the normal blink as it is now.
-How I would imagine it to work
Give blink a short minimum duration.
If the double click occurs within the duration -> its a shadow step. in the direction of the currently held movement keys.
If the first click is released without a second click -> its a short blink.
If the first click is held past the duration -> its a blink, keep calm and blink on.
If after the first click the duration passes and a second click occurs -> the player made an oopsie, they get two short blinks.
On second thought, shadow step seems so quick that it may not be possible form many people to click that quickly so here is an alternative idea. This idea also addresses the frequent complaints that it is too easy for fades to get away. I don't necessarily believe that, but this idea affects both issues anyway.
Give blink a short minimum <b>delay</b>.
If the double click occurs within the delay -> its a shadow step. in the direction of the currently held movement keys.
If the first click is released without a second click -> its a short blink.
If the first click is held past the delay -> its a blink, keep calm and blink on.
If after the first click the delay passes and a second click occurs -> the player made an oopsie, they get two short blinks.
EDIT: A quick click and release could be a good way to trigger shadow step.
i.e.
if right click is held under say 0.2s -. shadow step in the direction of the currently held movement keys
if its held beyond 0.2s -> its a blink
This still has the problem of the game trying to distinguish between blinks and shadow steps. The threshold fore releasing the click would need to be very short so the game doesn't think its a blink and start to move you in the wrong direction only to then have to correct because you wanted a shadow step to the right.
Just my 37 cents.
As always, its great to see the progress you guys have been making.
EDIT : Forgot to mention that shadow step has activated for me at times when I did not double tap. Its possible I let off the key incompletely and pressed down again, or my PC / the server had a hiccup or lag spike that caused it.
Similar key press things have happened to me in other games, so it may just be my keyboard or something. But others have told me of the same experience, so it is worth mentioning
Comments
If the double click occurs within the delay -> its a shadow step. in the direction of the currently held movement keys.
If the first click is released without a second click -> its a short blink.
If the first click is held past the delay -> its a blink, keep calm and blink on.
If after the first click the delay passes and a second click occurs -> the player made an oopsie, they get two short blinks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is definitely the worst option of them all. NS2 needs less delays for important things, not more. You're complaining about fine control of movement, but want to add a delay to a movement skill?
If the double click occurs within the delay -> its a shadow step. in the direction of the currently held movement keys.
If the first click is released without a second click -> its a short blink.
If the first click is held past the delay -> its a blink, keep calm and blink on.
If after the first click the delay passes and a second click occurs -> the player made an oopsie, they get two short blinks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This idea is the best fix I've seen yet. And it doesn't take up an additional key.
Edit: Lol at this and the above post.
I'd rather have a delay going into blink than a delay exiting blink. Just look at the poor video of the fade that can't hit the jetpack user.
<!--quoteo(post=1908911:date=Mar 1 2012, 06:30 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Mar 1 2012, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908911"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This idea is the best fix I've seen yet....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People disagreeing? Guess that means I found a good issue to work on!
2) Double tap to activate
This one kills me, literally. Maybe I'm unusual compared to how most people play but, I FREQUENTLY tap my movement keys when I am trying to achieve fine control of my movement. Let me highlight what I mean with an example that happened to me. I was trying to position myself (as a fade of course) right around a corner so ambush the marines that I knew were coming. Naturally, I tapped my movement keys to get into position. Shadow step kicked in and poofed me well past the corner. I was quickly shot to pieces, most un-fun. I also accidentally shadow stepped off the edge in crevice while fighting marines. That time I got lucky and blinked to the wall and got wedged in a corner so I wouldn't fall to death. Once my energy was full, I blinked back up to crevice. However, going back to point (1), I barely had enough energy to get beck up to the pathway in crevice due to the significantly increase energy cost of blink in B199.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I previously posted about this issue in the forum quite recently. :(
Other people have mentioned similar experiences to me.
Updating the OP with this.
When you right-click
Blink moves in the direction you indicate from your WASD
If after 300ms you do not indicate one...it picks forward. (for newbs)
there newb friendly and depth
+1
But just to clear things up:
with delay you mean you have to wait a moment before you blink after hitting the key? Or do you mean a time window in which you can click again to make a shadow step?
I would want it like this:
add a <b>cooldown</b> to your blink + shadowstep (not a delay)
first right click -> you enter the cloud
double right click -> shadow step
right click held -> blink
With cooldown i mean a delay after the actual blink. (but I guess you guys all know what a cooldown is).
edit: the cooldown doesnt have to be long, maybe 0.5 to 1 second or so
About the blink energy, the idea is to make the fade more visible, you got less energy but you have momentum to work with. Since the marine can shoot the fade more, you can remove all delays and other evils things to compensate.
More generally I'm a bit confused about the role of shadow step, isn't it redundant with blink ?
Can't hit that damn marine :'(
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3eOI4rsEZSs"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3eOI4rsEZSs" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
To clarify my idea I'll use some numbers. DO NOT take them seriously.
Upon the first click blink is activated.
there is a delay (warm up) before the player disapears, say 0.5s. (i.e. the black smoke is starting but the fade hasn't poofed yet.)
-- At this point (as soon as the first click is made) A blink or shadow step WILL occur after the 0.5s delay.
-- if a second click occurs before the 0.5s delay passes -> the player shadow steps in the direction of the currently held movement keys.
-- if the first click is held for the duration of the 0.5s delay -> a normal blink occurs and lasts until the click is released or energy runs out.
-- if the first click is release before the 0.5s delay passes BUT no second click occurs -> its a super short (minimum) blink.
EDIT:
Upon re-reading, I see we are talking about different things. A cooldown only effects the next blink. What you are saying more mirrors my first shadow step idea. In that ANY blink has a minimum time, again say 0.5s. if a second click occurs during the minimum blink time, it becomes a shadow step. The problem is that the first click is going to put you in a blink and the second will make you shadow step. unless you happen to initially blink the way you want to shadow step.. things could get a bit... wonky... i.e. the blink starts to move you forward, but the shadow step is to the right.
A slight delay before blinking would allow the game time to distinguish between a shadow step and a blink. It also addresses how many people complain that it is too easy to escape as a fade. I'm on the fence about that, but clearly a slight delay would reduce the fades ability to get away easily. it would make fades need to escape a bit sooner to preserve more HP.
No need to say sorry, just continue this discussion here. It's very interested to see what people feels about it. I thought i was the only one dissapointed of it. Hopefully the uwe team finds good ways to improve it. Making it less clumsy and more playable. :)
RMB = Normal blink.
RMB + W/A/S/D = Shadowstep.
RMB = Normal blink.
RMB + W/A/S/D = Shadowstep.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, the movement keys are very important going in to/while in a blink. I want to be able to strafe or run and go strafing into a blink without sacrificing my speed and momentum by letting go the the movement keys in order to enter the blink.
RMB = Normal blink.
RMB + W/A/S/D = Shadowstep.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be absoluty PERFECT. Smooth and non-clumsy. I'm really hoping uwe would consider this. Crossing my fingers <3 <3 <3
Prefering this alot instead of table-tab ^^
Well you would have to hold up for a second or do it midair which would give the marines a bit more shooting time, but gives the stronger blink.
While easily using shadowsteps in combat or moving quickly about. I'd say it would be a fun mechanic to try.
<!--quoteo(post=1908953:date=Mar 1 2012, 07:34 PM:name=oldassgamers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oldassgamers @ Mar 1 2012, 07:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would be absoluty PERFECT....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YAY more disagreement!!!! I'm glad I posted this discussion. If only for the back to back yes/no posts that are making me laugh.
you can't blink sideways or backwards anymore...
i wrote in another thread already that this will return. in fact i wrote the code for that today together with more air control for the fade
<img src="http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/3786/69400865.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
In that case I guess simply using the movement modifier to enable shadowstep would be best.
RMB + direction = blink
Movement modifier (shift) + rmb + direction = Shadowstep
lol wtf is that?
Its really worth looking into as an alternative to what has been implemented this patch, which I'm sorry to say is redundant. (especially after you add back in sideways blinking.)
community contributions have been used / helped in the past?..
anyways. loving the game obsessively lately, thanks guys!
RMB + direction = blink
Movement modifier (shift) + rmb + direction = Shadowstep<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's what we tested today. i cannot say yet if this will be released, but chances are good
I think shadowstep was introduced to lessen the usage of blink and to make the fade fit more with a shock trooper role. Fades can't stay in fights as long as before, so now they might kill one marine instead of two. If they decide to go for consecutive kills, they might run out of energy and ultimately be forced to shadow step in order to retreat. This gives the marines an opportunity to kill a retreating, shadow stepping fade instead of shooting hopelessly at a blinking, nearly invincible one. So it's just a buff for marines imo.
On the bright side, fades can cover more ground than before while conserving energy, so they can attack immediately after reaching a hotspot instead of waiting for their energy to top off.
I agree that the double-tap mechanic needs to go since players fine-tune their movement on all classes. I'd suggest binding shadowstep to shift since it acts somewhat similarly to a marine's sprint.
RMB + direction = blink
Movement modifier (shift) + rmb + direction = Shadowstep<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1909089:date=Mar 1 2012, 11:59 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Mar 1 2012, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that's what we tested today. i cannot say yet if this will be released, but chances are good<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Much cleaner than my ideas, I hope it makes it in.