Onos Knock Down vs Devour

thefonzthefonz Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
<div class="IPBDescription">one is in, one is out, but they are basically the same</div>Let's start the (simple) comparison with devour.

When a marine is devoured, he is out of the game and doomed to die unless his team can free him by killing the onos.
Devour was not included because it apparently isn't fun to sit inside an onos for 15 seconds waiting to die or be freed.

Now for knock down.

When an onos hits a marine, the marine gets sent flying back a few feet and falls to the ground.
In theory, the marine gets knock far enough from the onos that the marine can get back up.
In practice, the marine gets knocked into a corner or wall and cannot get up while the onos keeps hitting them down until they die.

So, both attacks tend to leave the marine screwed over unless his teammates can kill (or at least drive away for knock down) the onos.

From this I would like to have the following things discussed.

1) Knock down needs reworked (this is probably already on the table with the devs), suggestions?

2) Can devour be brought back for NS2? (Let's at least play with the idea and try it out, that's what betas are for!)


My ideas to answer these questions

1)
maybe speed up how quickly the marine stands up
maybe make the knock down a charged version of the main attack. i.e. click to simply hit for damage (faster). click and hold for about 0.5-1.0 second to damage and knock down (slower)

2)
maybe give the devoured marine an option to suicide and enter the spawn queue rather than wait to be rescued or die
maybe make an onos that has devoured someone move slower while they die, this should ignore if the marine has suicided or not. they slowness should last for the total time needed to devour a marine. (this suggestion combats the tactic or devouring one marine from the group and running away)
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Comments

  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    Truth.

    If the onos should have one attack that makes marines unable to move, it should be devour. It's much more original that a simple knock-down and iconic of natural selection. Replacing devour by a primary weapon knock-down is a marketing mistake in my opinion.
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Members
    I prefer the knock down attack, and I don't think it's the same as devour.

    With knock down I manage to get up and get away about half the time. OK that may be due to hit-reg or dodgy Onos controls, I dunno.

    When I'm knocked down I can still see what's going on around me and in the worst case scenario I die very soon after. It's much better than having a 'screen saver' appear like in NS1 while I sit and twiddle my thumbs.

    Current knock down could be improved by adding a sadistic 'crawl away if you can' movement for knocked down marines. I think there was something like that in Left for Dead 2, or a server side mod I don't remember. Players who were incapacitated could drag themselves along at a slow pace.
  • NakorsonNakorson Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140253Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1906367:date=Feb 23 2012, 02:47 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Feb 23 2012, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I prefer the knock down attack, and I don't think it's the same as devour.

    With knock down I manage to get up and get away about half the time. OK that may be due to hit-reg or dodgy Onos controls, I dunno.

    When I'm knocked down I can still see what's going on around me and in the worst case scenario I die very soon after. It's much better than having a 'screen saver' appear like in NS1 while I sit and twiddle my thumbs.

    Current knock down could be improved by adding a sadistic 'crawl away if you can' movement for knocked down marines. I think there was something like that in Left for Dead 2, or a server side mod I don't remember. Players who were incapacitated could drag themselves along at a slow pace.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    What i liked about devour was it could only affect one marine. The onos could only devour one player at a time and the next one when the first one was digested. Knockdown does knockdown pretty much everyone near the onos and none of them can fightback.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    <!--quoteo(post=1906380:date=Feb 23 2012, 01:38 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Feb 23 2012, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906380"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Knockdown does knockdown pretty much everyone near the onos and none of them can fightback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    stole the words outa my mouth.
    great point OP. +1
    not being able to move is frustrating. period. but if you're gonna do it, limit to as few marines as possible (Devour) with a downside, and IF you keep a "not being able to move or have input in how you die" mechanic, you might as well make it really interesting/fun. (<b>Meta game inside onos! axe away!!</b>)
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited February 2012
    What about a devour with some kind of way of seeing out of the onos. Some kind of useful feedback would go a long way to make devour a less painful experience. If you could see what the onos was doing, for example, at least you could watch something. Obviously this might not work for realism-junkies but maybe they can figure some equivalent out (not that I care).

    I should note that i'm anti-debilitation moves on the whole and I'd rather see the back-end of both abilities. The OP is right, however, that they function in a similar way. In fact, at least devour suffered from the limitation of only affecting one player. Knockdown can be used over and over again on groups as well as individuals. We now have an attack that is almost as annoying as devour but which can be used endlessly so, overall, is a more annoying move.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited February 2012
    Hmm, I dunno. The Onos is powerful, but has some severe drawbacks as well, the stun is just a small tool to help it out. The best tactic is to spread out and keep hiding behind objects so this hulking monster can't get to you fast enough.

    Add jetpacks into the mix and his knockback becomes quite useless. If you get knocked down, two things are going on.

    1. He surprised you
    2. You were in the wrong place, with the wrong equipment to deal with this end game unit.

    The thing is, when you know an Onos is about to arrive, you outflank him or start going to other areas he has a hard time getting to, all the while shooting at him. Instead of going head on, you as a none-jetpack marine have no place to be near him, while it is his job to knock you down and actually get near you.

    Circle strafing is doable to newer Onos players, but still quite dangerous. But everyone want to try their hand at axing the Onos :P
  • Mkk_BitestuffMkk_Bitestuff Join Date: 2003-01-17 Member: 12407Members
    To me the onos knockdown is frustrating on both sides, playing the onos or the marine. It makes killing marines not in corners a slow process, and seems very unnecessary effect to hit attacks, as they are already very powerful and he has alot of hp. I would prefer to just hit the marines quickly for the kill so i can move on to other targets.
  • StarkwindStarkwind Join Date: 2011-07-26 Member: 112394Members
    Adding Devour back would be a fantastic addition to NS2... Onos just doesnt feel the same without it
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    Wow people really are fond of jackrabbiting around as marines aren't they? A 1 sec disable is nothing. Although I always did like devour, I loved how you could hear what was going on outside.
  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Members
    I got a bizarre idea...

    When Onos knocks down Marines, Gorges can rush up and +use the Marine to gobble him up, and spit back out like Yoshi does with his eggs :D

    Come on! His belly isn't just for slime and goo!
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Members
    NO to devour, why is this even a topic?!

    devour instantly kills whomever gets hit with it.

    fully armed, full health marine, ONE HIT KILL

    unless your team will chase it down AND has the power to kill it


    knock down at least gives you a fighting chance, in ns1 devour was SO cheap.
    combine that with the similar hitbox dragging...

    HELL NO to devour.
  • WorthyRivalWorthyRival Black Armor Division Join Date: 2006-11-07 Member: 58470Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited February 2012
    + 1 Devour

    Some of my fondest NS1 memories are of devour. Praying seconds before being eaten, being saved and chasing down onos to save team mates.
    I don't fear the onos like I used too. You never wanted to be that guy that got eaten first, Thats what truly made you fear it.

    As soon as you're eaten you join the end of spawn queue. Not after you're digested.
    You can be saved from the stomach before re-spawning.
    You can axe the onos from the inside so a low health onos better think twice about devouring.

    Also onos farts a large spore cloud after devouring completes.
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Members
    Devs, if you wanna implement an attack like this, put it back on 3rd hive charge.

    it could be a high energy usage attack so onos couldnt spam it and would have to use it at the right time, but at least the attack makes sense

    give the onos the horn smash attack in slot 1.



    anyone that doesnt agree with this give me a GOOD reason why.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    Knock-down on jetpacks is a bit weird also.
  • assbdaassbda Join Date: 2011-05-02 Member: 96737Members
    edited February 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1906435:date=Feb 24 2012, 01:43 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Feb 24 2012, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NO to devour, why is this even a topic?!

    devour instantly kills whomever gets hit with it.

    fully armed, full health marine, ONE HIT KILL

    unless your team will chase it down AND has the power to kill it


    knock down at least gives you a fighting chance, in ns1 devour was SO cheap.
    combine that with the similar hitbox dragging...

    HELL NO to devour.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thats what made the onos so unique and feared, no one wanted to die that way cause its so devastating on resources.

    It takes roughly 20 seconds do be killed from a devour on full health, wtf is 20 seconds?
    Its nothing. If time is so precious to people why are they playing a computer game in the first place.
    I never minded being devoured, the amount of time ive been dead in counter strike and waiting for the round to end goes far beyond any amount of time ive spent staring absent minded at a computer screen.

    3rd It encourages the fact marines are not meant to wander alone, I can admit that when a onos finds that loner marine- eating him it just the funnest way to show him how stupid he is for venturing off.
    Hell, even when im that marine ive learnt my lesson enough times and binded a "kill" key for when he finds me.

    4th i bet when you onos you use the devour skill so you're a hypocrite

    ^are those reasons good enough for you?
    +1 to devour
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    Should be able to fly away while being knocked down if you have a jetpack. In a spiraling fashion.
  • assbdaassbda Join Date: 2011-05-02 Member: 96737Members
    edited February 2012
  • Mkk_BitestuffMkk_Bitestuff Join Date: 2003-01-17 Member: 12407Members
    I think the devs have already made up their mind regarding devour. I believe it was longer than 20 seconds in NS1, plus when used with cloaking was really a very lame ability. TBH i think the knockdown hurts the onos more then helps him, it makes it hard to kill marines fast when they keep flying backwards from you. I think they should just remove the knockdown and give gore a slight rof increase, and maybe slightly less adren cost. The stomp knockdown isnt as annoying as the onos has to make a pretty clear choice to use that as he stops moving for a bit.
  • EstevooEstevoo Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 138993Members
    Maybe instead the marine wait to die he can pull his knife and cut the Onos from inside!XD
  • QuovatisQuovatis Team Inversion Join Date: 2010-01-26 Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited February 2012
    I find it kinda hard to get a kill with gore. First, you have to find them again after they get knocked back, and then the hit detection is sometimes wonky (i.e. you have to crouch down to hit them again with gore). All this while the rest of the marine team is shooting at you. It usually doesn't go well.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    No they aren't the same.

    With devour, the best thing to do was generally to devour one marine and kill the rest or, more probably, run away.

    With gore, you have to press the attack to get a kill, it doesn't take the marine out of the fight instantly, only as long as the onos keeps attacking him, which gives other marines more time to kill the onos, and also introduces the possibility that the onos might switch targets to a more convenient one, and you can always get knocked somewhere hard to reach.

    It is universally a better mechanic.
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1906621:date=Feb 24 2012, 10:36 AM:name=assbda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (assbda @ Feb 24 2012, 10:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats what made the onos so unique and feared, no one wanted to die that way cause its so devastating on resources.

    It takes roughly 20 seconds do be killed from a devour on full health, wtf is 20 seconds?
    Its nothing. If time is so precious to people why are they playing a computer game in the first place.
    I never minded being devoured, the amount of time ive been dead in counter strike and waiting for the round to end goes far beyond any amount of time ive spent staring absent minded at a computer screen.

    3rd It encourages the fact marines are not meant to wander alone, I can admit that when a onos finds that loner marine- eating him it just the funnest way to show him how stupid he is for venturing off.
    Hell, even when im that marine ive learnt my lesson enough times and binded a "kill" key for when he finds me.

    4th i bet when you onos you use the devour skill so you're a hypocrite

    ^are those reasons good enough for you?
    +1 to devour<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    you only like it because of how cheap it is

    its giving one class in the game a 1 hit kill on anyone on the other team.

    and no you dont have to use it on a lone marine.

    and i didnt play a lot of onos, i played mostly fade or gorge.

    its not the amount of time you spend in the onos its the fact that you can have a maxed out marine and the onos can kill it in ONE HIT.

    go ahead and argue thats balanced.
  • MuYeahMuYeah Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Members
    I'm going to use my crystal ball and predict that exo suits wont be as affected by the knockback. As it stands, it's really annoying, though.
  • TalesinTalesin Our own little well of hate Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
    +1 for bringing back devour.

    It's an end-game unit that costs quite a few resources, is the proverbial broad side of a barn as far as aiming goes, and would discourage rambos.
    Sure, it's annoying as a Marine. But Onos are meant to be a game-ender as well. Kharaa have to hold three static points (plus RTs) to get end-game tech. Marines? One (plus RTs) and time. I don't see an issue with the field being slanted toward Kharaa at the top of both tech trees due to the added location requirements.

    I see ZERO problem with bringing Devour back. Give the Onos some REAL incentive for the Marines to go 'oh, CRAP'. With the added expenditure on the Kharaa side to even GET Onos, it should be far more devastating than it is currently (I'd go so far as to say it should be FAR stronger than the NS 2.1 version).
  • Ph0enixPh0enix Join Date: 2002-10-08 Member: 1462Members, Constellation
    edited February 2012
    A significant portion of the community thinks devour is unfun, its not coming back. Sorry :)
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    The problem is not that devour is unfun, but that a significant portion of the community argue that knock-down is even worse.
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1906842:date=Feb 25 2012, 05:41 AM:name=Talesin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talesin @ Feb 25 2012, 05:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 for bringing back devour.

    It's an end-game unit that costs quite a few resources, is the proverbial broad side of a barn as far as aiming goes, and would discourage rambos.
    Sure, it's annoying as a Marine. But Onos are meant to be a game-ender as well. Kharaa have to hold three static points (plus RTs) to get end-game tech. Marines? One (plus RTs) and time. I don't see an issue with the field being slanted toward Kharaa at the top of both tech trees due to the added location requirements.

    I see ZERO problem with bringing Devour back. Give the Onos some REAL incentive for the Marines to go 'oh, CRAP'. With the added expenditure on the Kharaa side to even GET Onos, it should be far more devastating than it is currently (I'd go so far as to say it should be FAR stronger than the NS 2.1 version).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    devour was always unrealistic and nowhere near balanced. its the only class in the entire game that can kill in one hit regardless. people arguing that devour only worked on lone marines obviously never played ns1 that much. onos is stop enough to run in, devour and run out. its even easier with gorge support. hell look at the onos in ns2, unless the onos is stupid they regularly hit and run without dying. no one is arguing to nerf the onos, the onos ends games just fine as is. theres absolutely no need to give it devour. if anything its the lower classes that need the buffs.
  • VolccisVolccis Join Date: 2011-12-11 Member: 137452Members
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9np3a4HsEk&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9np3a4HsEk...feature=related</a> 1:50 you will see an onos devouring a marine.

    Just to remind people, in this video devouring did last for 30 seconds :D (dont know if they changed the time later)
  • Dank McShwaggerDank McShwagger Join Date: 2009-06-10 Member: 67784Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1906968:date=Feb 25 2012, 05:22 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Feb 25 2012, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->devour was always unrealistic and nowhere near balanced. its the only class in the entire game that can kill in one hit regardless. people arguing that devour only worked on lone marines obviously never played ns1 that much. onos is stop enough to run in, devour and run out. its even easier with gorge support. hell look at the onos in ns2, unless the onos is stupid they regularly hit and run without dying. no one is arguing to nerf the onos, the onos ends games just fine as is. theres absolutely no need to give it devour. if anything its the lower classes that need the buffs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    you sound like someone who got devoured one too many times...

    I am 100% in favor of bringing back devour. It encourages squad movement as marines and promotes comradery when a marine is saved from the belly of an onos by his team mates. There are many variables that can be adjusted to balance out devour but as it was in NS1 I would be more then happy to see in NS2.

    +1 to bringing back devour
  • tyrael64tyrael64 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70551Members
    Was funny for aliens and for marines too!
    Nothing was more fun than be eaten and rescued by the friends, killing the onos.


    maybe have to worse somehow.

    but Devour+1
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