I think this can also be a Hive 2 method for Gorges to force open doors, instead of infestation damaging doors. The Goo Wall would be tough enough to hold a door open if it can block speedy physical objects from passing through it :P
<!--quoteo(post=1905692:date=Feb 21 2012, 10:25 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Feb 21 2012, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure if that would feel satisfying as a marine. People generally prefer to destroy stuff outright. To have to keep shooting until it completely vanished that could be tedious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually this is how all alien structures (and players) are now
he just wants to amplify it to make it more badass, and I approve
I'm not really in favor of anything that might add to the entity spam that we see currently. Hydra/turret spam is already ridiculous on pubs, and I don't see a wall of goo being used competitively since the marines can walk through it. The slow that it would give is also annoying to most FPS'ers. I think 3rd hive web would be appropriate.
--!!--However, I can see it being used to protect aliens buildings/hives.
The gorge spends 5 res and bumps up the hp of an alien structure by 500 or 750 or whatever is balanced. This could be exceptionally useful in competitive play for trying to save a hive or res node (the ability would probably need a cooldown). Pubs would use it possibly too much, but that's why you have the heavy requirement res.
Not only that, but it solves the 'spam' issue, as there would be no additional structures. And if the gorge isn't close enough to use it on a structure that's going down, then it (the alien structure) by all rights and privileges deserves to die.
To be honest Id prefer it if the alien commander could do it as much as I know gorges need more abilities. The alien commander really needs more battle interactive abilities and having something like this which was say a temporary thing that cost alot of energy but blocked off a tunnel would be extremely cool. Lets say the wall slowly melted away from the moment it was placed, so the alien commander would need to be careful where he placed it. To offset that give gorge the ability to build res towers so they can still have a greater role in assistance.
Question though would be, does it effect things from both teams? I think it should as it would be stupid to only stop marine movement, bullets etc etc. That way it could be used as a way to seal the marines off, or stop them from attacking your hive to buy time for your team to respawn or reach there. Definately say it should be a commander temporary ability that he can only place on infestation so that then the commander(and gorges) would really be inclined to infest more to give the wall more options to be deployed.
Idea: -Temporary wall that costs energy and slowly melts away. Must be put on infestation. -Wall would be head height covers wall to wall(must be walls close enough to each other), and slows everything that moves through it. -All projectile (not grenades) damage shooting through is reduced by 80%. Grenades, axe and flamethrower naturally damage wall. -Give gorge resource tower building instead but make it cost more and take slightly longer to build.
Just my thoughts. Very cool idea though. Would love to see a wall of goo pop up in front of marines.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2012
comm shouldnt be in charge of placing anything that isnt only able to put on the floor, for obvious top down viewpoint issues. the gorge inside the room would be best to determine where, and in what crevice exactly.
dont use res, just have a huge huge cooldown for the ability, or one wall per life. there are many ways to solve the spamming potential AND not mess with the gorge's res which is so precious and slim already.
utilizing infestation to do so is definitely a needed and intuitive design, and really should be extended to being "Draped" or "engulfing" structures for a temporary time so that its <i>their </i>nano shield :)
so this is purely defensive right? what about offensive, will we still be seeing umbra provided by lerks?
<!--quoteo(post=1905638:date=Feb 22 2012, 01:36 AM:name=Omegalisk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omegalisk @ Feb 22 2012, 01:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that giving the Gorge more defensive capabilities beyond Hydras (which don't do that great, honestly) is a really good idea. I like the idea of extending webs into more defense than NS1, but I'm not sure if goo is what would be best. One thing that I think would be interesting, as well as fitting with the Alien "nature turned behemoth" theme would be tall, thick grasses that the Gorge can plant that extend about 1.5-2.0 marines high. They can slow down/block bullets, obviously block sight, and slow down Marines, and the Marines would use their Axe to cut through it to go faster.
Imagine a group of marines entering a darkened room full of thick jungle, but underneath it all is cold, hard metal. That is the kind of horrifying situation that I think is missing from the Marine experience. At the same time, Skulks jumping in and out of grass, taking bites where they can, as well as an Onos, flanked by Fades, coming barreling down into the group of Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think i like the sound of gorges having that either :/ Theyre spending too much res on everything they do as it is, hydras, cysts, and now goo? As someone said it should be something for the com to do, and just give the gorges their web skill back. It was always fun putting those everywhere.
why not make it a hive 1 ability? it'll make it so marines cant easily rush the 2nd hive going up... gorges already get bile with the 2nd hive...and having it as a 3rd hive ability is kinda useless.
<!--quoteo(post=1905735:date=Feb 21 2012, 11:26 PM:name=assbda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (assbda @ Feb 21 2012, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont think i like the sound of gorges having that either :/ Theyre spending too much res on everything they do as it is, hydras, cysts, and now goo? As someone said it should be something for the com to do, and just give the gorges their web skill back. It was always fun putting those everywhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why not have both for gorge? it could use energy instead of resources and it would make the gorge more fun.
the trouble for the com. having this job would be that the com would have trouble seeing a vertical wall/goo in a top down view (take doors as an example).
some ideas, assuming that the goo wall can be oriented at angles instead of just straight up/down vertical: <ul>* if you are able to orient the goo wall horizontally along the ground, hide any pustules and mini pustules it touches from view * khamm can research an upgrade ("corrosive goo"?) to make it deal armor damage to anyone attacking it with melee or trying to move through it * allow kharaa to climb it like a rope ladder, giving more mobility to gorges and onos, letting them reach otherwise inaccessible areas. * block empty resource nozzles from being built on by marines</li></ul>
Gorges actually do a lot right now. Not only do they help speed the commander expansion up, they are also front line tanking machines, siege breaking pain on a ridiculous scale, and also a mobile healer. If they need to be defensive they make hydra farms, but can also hold the line with healing and keep buildings alive long enough for reinforcements. That and I agree with people that they already have to burn through a lot of resources doing what they currently do, it wouldn't make sense adding more load.
No I honestly think this should be a commander ability. The alien commander needs to do more battle wise instead of just watching energy tick over like a brain dead turkey. As people have said its an awesome idea and could be used as a strong defense to stop marines attacks and sieges. Imagine marines standing at the corner of a room trying to grenade shell a hive from a distance only to have a massive goo wall appear and block it.
As for commander not being able to view it from the top, id imagine it should be a big fat goo wall otherwise it wouldn't really do anything if marines could walk through it quickly.
MAINLY when a phase gate goes up and a massive swarm of marines is about to push into a hive and the aliens are on the other side of the map, this would be a crucial delay tactic to give the aliens enough time to get back across the map. This would be the aliens version of distress beacon. It's brilliant. Def Commander ability.
<!--quoteo(post=1905757:date=Feb 22 2012, 07:43 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 22 2012, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->some ideas, assuming that the goo wall can be oriented at angles instead of just straight up/down vertical:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a great idea have the commander angle it like a phase gate when placing it.
<!--quoteo(post=1905631:date=Feb 21 2012, 07:26 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Feb 21 2012, 07:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We've got a basic version of "goo walls" implemented, which allow the Gorge to build a wall of goo (with 2 hives and at a cost of personal resources). The idea here is that he can protect areas from attack, as the goo itself blocks shots and takes damage. It also currently doesn't block marine movement entirely but slows them down when they walk through it. I think this works pretty well so far.
I was originally thinking that you would create blobs that exist on their own. The approach we have tried to start is more like blobs connected with webs, so each blob you create must be attached within a certain distance of another blob, and also stretches a web across it. What's good about this is that lets you block a doorway or entrance, but it is a bit more clumsy to build, as you always have to build within a certain range of an existing goo blob.
My questions for you are:
1. What do you guys think of this idea? 2. How would you want to build these things?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1905671:date=Feb 21 2012, 08:46 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 21 2012, 08:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lerk had this before TF2 had the Soldier backpacks, and it was called primal scream. I hope something like that is in the works for NS2..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, that was a mistake on my part, I meant that warcraft game like flag that gives a targeted area some sort of benefit for a small duration. So a gorge could drop like a short duration healing or adrenaline structure to help out teammates during combat.
Gorges are unfortunately very res-starved already, while the rest of the alien team is really... not. But otherwise I like the idea of creating temporary geometry to block out some sites, even if temporarily. eg. in Mineshaft, block the small tunnel from central to cavern so the marines will have a harder time to go snipe cave/cavern res towers.
But of course there needs to be some balanced cost so the aliens just can't spam a ton of goo everywhere, that's permanent.
I would love to see this ability <i>replace</i> the mini-cyst model.
ie. Goo walls do everything mini-cysts do (spreads temporary infestation, becomes permanent when connected to cyst network), but you can also arrange them in interesting shapes and create the dynamic cover effect.
I would also like to see goo walls being resistant to kinetic damage but weak to thermal damage. Bullets, spikes and spit cause very little damage. Explosions are moderately effective and flames are extremely effective.
I like the discussion about these taking the form of piles on the floor instead of snot on the ceiling... Building walls by heaping blobs of goo on top of each other. It makes me think of this picture: <img src="http://www.wired.com/geekdad/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/SandDrip-finished.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Would it be possible to have the goo coat an already existing structure or <b>player</b>, instantly shielding the object for X health and extinguishing any fires?
It would be really cool to increase the gorge's economy-linked "clutch" ability in combat in a manner analogous to medpacks. IMO it fits with their defensive support role.
I'm a little worried about a further increase in the power of hive2, though.
I really like the idea, webs never really worked in NS1 (see what I did there, we competitive players just don't want copy everything from NS1 to NS2). This feature is pure support ability and I loved it, because gorge should be support unit. It also increases teamwork: goo + skulk combo is something I would love to see. NS2 really need more teamwork combo's (the only reason L4d is played competitive) if you don't add advanced movement for aliens to compensate the lack of teamwork. Though, it needs to be balanced properly.
1. It should not disable marine's shooting ability, only slow their moving ability a second or two when they go through it. Paralyzing abilities are always negative in mp games. 2. I would like it be quite strong but I hope it would only absorb like 50% of marine's shooting damage and rest of damage would go through it to other side. 3. I would like it to be first hive ability and not cost any res. 4. Order to stop spamming, a gorge should only be able to make one or two goo at time. This way gorge would really have to think where and how he will use this ability. Gorge should be able to remove it when needed. 5. It could be counter against jps.
In NS1 spores where used to force marines to move certain areas in higher level. But because UWE has in their great wisdom seen fit to remove this most tactical feature from the game, I would like goo to replace lerk's spores. Goo could be used to force marines to move harder terrain in room (under vents or something when marines are destroying RT). I really hope you don't overdo this ability; gorge should not be able to kill a marine by her/himself.
<!--quoteo(post=1905851:date=Feb 22 2012, 10:57 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Feb 22 2012, 10:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this comes a bit out of the blue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Nah, someone discovered the game files for this a few days ago.
It somehow sounds like umbraed web. I don't like the idea that the gorge gets it with 2 hives, thinking about a gorge sitting in a vent creating a goowall in a 30 degree angel, so that marines can't hit the gorge from below but the gorge can bile in an arc above the goowall. To powerfull for hive2, it should be hive3 or bilebomb should go to hive3 if goowall gets hive2.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have some troubles imagining how it would look and work, all that comes in my mind is minecraft glass bricks...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You raise an interesting point. Should it be a singular damage model, or be modular in design and damage? And.. -What if it could only take REAL damage from the flamethrower, light-ish damage from axe?
Maybe the number of allowed 'goo walls' could be increase with more hives. Like 1-2 with hive and each hive gives the ability to build one more?
I also liked the idea that the wall had to kept active by the gorge and that it would decay by time. So the gorge had to check and 'refill' the walls. Times would have to balanced out.
<!--quoteo(post=1905843:date=Feb 22 2012, 07:43 AM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Feb 22 2012, 07:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like the idea, webs never really worked in NS1 (see what I did there, we competitive players just don't want copy everything from NS1 to NS2). This feature is pure support ability and I loved it, because gorge should be support unit. It also increases teamwork: goo + skulk combo is something I would love to see. NS2 really need more teamwork combo's (the only reason L4d is played competitive) if you don't add advanced movement for aliens to compensate the lack of teamwork. Though, it needs to be balanced properly.
1. It should not disable marine's shooting ability, only slow their moving ability a second or two when they go through it. Paralyzing abilities are always negative in mp games. 2. I would like it be quite strong but I hope it would only absorb like 50% of marine's shooting damage and rest of damage would go through it to other side. 3. I would like it to be first hive ability and not cost any res. 4. Order to stop spamming, a gorge should only be able to make one or two goo at time. This way gorge would really have to think where and how he will use this ability. Gorge should be able to remove it when needed. 5. It could be counter against jps.
In NS1 spores where used to force marines to move certain areas in higher level. But because UWE has in their great wisdom seen fit to remove this most tactical feature from the game, I would like goo to replace lerk's spores. Goo could be used to force marines to move harder terrain in room (under vents or something when marines are destroying RT). I really hope you don't overdo this ability; gorge should not be able to kill a marine by her/himself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> absolutly agree
what if, and I say what if....we gave umbra back to the lerk? wouldn't this do exact same thing charlie trying to do with this "goo wall".
we already know how well umbra can work in the hands of the lerk, so what's stopping us from giving it back to him? And don't tell me the way umbra currently works is fine..
IF you want to give the gorge some sort of web-like goo, just change the web to look like sticky-goo.
Comments
actually this is how all alien structures (and players) are now
he just wants to amplify it to make it more badass, and I approve
--!!--However, I can see it being used to protect aliens buildings/hives.
The gorge spends 5 res and bumps up the hp of an alien structure by 500 or 750 or whatever is balanced. This could be exceptionally useful in competitive play for trying to save a hive or res node (the ability would probably need a cooldown). Pubs would use it possibly too much, but that's why you have the heavy requirement res.
Not only that, but it solves the 'spam' issue, as there would be no additional structures. And if the gorge isn't close enough to use it on a structure that's going down, then it (the alien structure) by all rights and privileges deserves to die.
Question though would be, does it effect things from both teams? I think it should as it would be stupid to only stop marine movement, bullets etc etc. That way it could be used as a way to seal the marines off, or stop them from attacking your hive to buy time for your team to respawn or reach there. Definately say it should be a commander temporary ability that he can only place on infestation so that then the commander(and gorges) would really be inclined to infest more to give the wall more options to be deployed.
Idea:
-Temporary wall that costs energy and slowly melts away. Must be put on infestation.
-Wall would be head height covers wall to wall(must be walls close enough to each other), and slows everything that moves through it.
-All projectile (not grenades) damage shooting through is reduced by 80%. Grenades, axe and flamethrower naturally damage wall.
-Give gorge resource tower building instead but make it cost more and take slightly longer to build.
Just my thoughts. Very cool idea though. Would love to see a wall of goo pop up in front of marines.
dont use res, just have a huge huge cooldown for the ability, or one wall per life. there are many ways to solve the spamming potential AND not mess with the gorge's res which is so precious and slim already.
utilizing infestation to do so is definitely a needed and intuitive design, and really should be extended to being "Draped" or "engulfing" structures for a temporary time so that its <i>their </i>nano shield :)
so this is purely defensive right? what about offensive, will we still be seeing umbra provided by lerks?
Imagine a group of marines entering a darkened room full of thick jungle, but underneath it all is cold, hard metal. That is the kind of horrifying situation that I think is missing from the Marine experience. At the same time, Skulks jumping in and out of grass, taking bites where they can, as well as an Onos, flanked by Fades, coming barreling down into the group of Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
As someone said it should be something for the com to do, and just give the gorges their web skill back. It was always fun putting those everywhere.
As someone said it should be something for the com to do, and just give the gorges their web skill back. It was always fun putting those everywhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why not have both for gorge? it could use energy instead of resources and it would make the gorge more fun.
the trouble for the com. having this job would be that the com would have trouble seeing a vertical wall/goo in a top down view (take doors as an example).
<ul>* if you are able to orient the goo wall horizontally along the ground, hide any pustules and mini pustules it touches from view
* khamm can research an upgrade ("corrosive goo"?) to make it deal armor damage to anyone attacking it with melee or trying to move through it
* allow kharaa to climb it like a rope ladder, giving more mobility to gorges and onos, letting them reach otherwise inaccessible areas.
* block empty resource nozzles from being built on by marines</li></ul>
No I honestly think this should be a commander ability. The alien commander needs to do more battle wise instead of just watching energy tick over like a brain dead turkey. As people have said its an awesome idea and could be used as a strong defense to stop marines attacks and sieges. Imagine marines standing at the corner of a room trying to grenade shell a hive from a distance only to have a massive goo wall appear and block it.
As for commander not being able to view it from the top, id imagine it should be a big fat goo wall otherwise it wouldn't really do anything if marines could walk through it quickly.
MAINLY when a phase gate goes up and a massive swarm of marines is about to push into a hive and the aliens are on the other side of the map, this would be a crucial delay tactic to give the aliens enough time to get back across the map. This would be the aliens version of distress beacon. It's brilliant. Def Commander ability.
That's a great idea have the commander angle it like a phase gate when placing it.
I was originally thinking that you would create blobs that exist on their own. The approach we have tried to start is more like blobs connected with webs, so each blob you create must be attached within a certain distance of another blob, and also stretches a web across it. What's good about this is that lets you block a doorway or entrance, but it is a bit more clumsy to build, as you always have to build within a certain range of an existing goo blob.
My questions for you are:
1. What do you guys think of this idea?
2. How would you want to build these things?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
approved
increase hydra dmg plz
Yeah, that was a mistake on my part, I meant that warcraft game like flag that gives a targeted area some sort of benefit for a small duration. So a gorge could drop like a short duration healing or adrenaline structure to help out teammates during combat.
But otherwise I like the idea of creating temporary geometry to block out some sites, even if temporarily.
eg. in Mineshaft, block the small tunnel from central to cavern so the marines will have a harder time to go snipe cave/cavern res towers.
But of course there needs to be some balanced cost so the aliens just can't spam a ton of goo everywhere, that's permanent.
1. What do you guys think of this idea?
2. How would you want to build these things?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Amazing
2. like the webs from gorge in ns1
ie. Goo walls do everything mini-cysts do (spreads temporary infestation, becomes permanent when connected to cyst network), but you can also arrange them in interesting shapes and create the dynamic cover effect.
I would also like to see goo walls being resistant to kinetic damage but weak to thermal damage. Bullets, spikes and spit cause very little damage. Explosions are moderately effective and flames are extremely effective.
I like the discussion about these taking the form of piles on the floor instead of snot on the ceiling... Building walls by heaping blobs of goo on top of each other. It makes me think of this picture:
<img src="http://www.wired.com/geekdad/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/SandDrip-finished.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Would it be possible to have the goo coat an already existing structure or <b>player</b>, instantly shielding the object for X health and extinguishing any fires?
It would be really cool to increase the gorge's economy-linked "clutch" ability in combat in a manner analogous to medpacks. IMO it fits with their defensive support role.
I'm a little worried about a further increase in the power of hive2, though.
1. It should not disable marine's shooting ability, only slow their moving ability a second or two when they go through it. Paralyzing abilities are always negative in mp games.
2. I would like it be quite strong but I hope it would only absorb like 50% of marine's shooting damage and rest of damage would go through it to other side.
3. I would like it to be first hive ability and not cost any res.
4. Order to stop spamming, a gorge should only be able to make one or two goo at time. This way gorge would really have to think where and how he will use this ability. Gorge should be able to remove it when needed.
5. It could be counter against jps.
In NS1 spores where used to force marines to move certain areas in higher level. But because UWE has in their great wisdom seen fit to remove this most tactical feature from the game, I would like goo to replace lerk's spores. Goo could be used to force marines to move harder terrain in room (under vents or something when marines are destroying RT). I really hope you don't overdo this ability; gorge should not be able to kill a marine by her/himself.
You raise an interesting point. Should it be a singular damage model, or be modular in design and damage?
And..
-What if it could only take REAL damage from the flamethrower, light-ish damage from axe?
I also liked the idea that the wall had to kept active by the gorge and that it would decay by time. So the gorge had to check and 'refill' the walls. Times would have to balanced out.
1. It should not disable marine's shooting ability, only slow their moving ability a second or two when they go through it. Paralyzing abilities are always negative in mp games.
2. I would like it be quite strong but I hope it would only absorb like 50% of marine's shooting damage and rest of damage would go through it to other side.
3. I would like it to be first hive ability and not cost any res.
4. Order to stop spamming, a gorge should only be able to make one or two goo at time. This way gorge would really have to think where and how he will use this ability. Gorge should be able to remove it when needed.
5. It could be counter against jps.
In NS1 spores where used to force marines to move certain areas in higher level. But because UWE has in their great wisdom seen fit to remove this most tactical feature from the game, I would like goo to replace lerk's spores. Goo could be used to force marines to move harder terrain in room (under vents or something when marines are destroying RT). I really hope you don't overdo this ability; gorge should not be able to kill a marine by her/himself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
absolutly agree
Isnt the Umbra cloud the same thing, it blocks some bullets??
Have you had any thoughts on having 2 things doing the exact same thing? You dont see any balance issues or exploitation with that?
I'm not being accusatory, just wondering
we already know how well umbra can work in the hands of the lerk, so what's stopping us from giving it back to him? And don't tell me the way umbra currently works is fine..
IF you want to give the gorge some sort of web-like goo, just change the web to look like sticky-goo.