So I was looking at the new features of NS2 and I noticed bunny hopping was getting replaced? Why did the devs decide to remove such an important part of the game?
I don't speak for everyone when I say this but I thoroughly enjoy bunny hoping, even though I'm not a professional quake player or anything its still a fairly easy technique to grasp(though difficult to master) and its one of the reasons why game like quake are still being played to this day.
<!--quoteo(post=1900816:date=Feb 8 2012, 02:04 AM:name=Dergless)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dergless @ Feb 8 2012, 02:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't speak for everyone when I say this but I thoroughly enjoy bunny hoping, even though I'm not a professional quake player or anything its still a fairly easy technique to grasp(though difficult to master) and its one of the reasons why game like quake are still being played to this day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1870103:date=Aug 20 2011, 12:00 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 20 2011, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aaand another bunnyhopping thread crawls up out of the depths to terrorize the community forums with its endless circular arguments.
At this stage, it's unlikely that BH will make a return in its full NS1 glory, though we understand the value of it on the competitive side. The pros and cons of BH have been stated a million times, so I'm not going to get dragged into that, however I will say that we are working on a variety of ways to get more fleshed out skill based movement into the game, especially for the alien side. It won't be an across the board thing, the way BH was, but rather a focus on the particular aspects of movement of each player class that makes them unique.
So, for the Skulk, we are working on a wall hopping system that allows for increases in speed based off of timing jumps properly on varying surfaces. Walls, crates, railings, marine structures, etc, with the intention of getting the skulk off of the floor, and using the surrounding environment more. We may even have an early first pass at this for next patch, though no promises.
We have other plans for the rest of the aliens. For example, there is a lot we could do to really enhance his bellyslide, to make it much more maneuverable as a start, and then to potentially have skill based moves like jumps and drifting that can be performed. Lerk flight is being improved and will likely get more additions/improvements, Fade has blink which comes with a whole host of possibilities, and we've got some ideas already for an Onos charge type of movement system.
So, there's a long answer to the question of whether or not bunny hop will be in the game.
That is one of the biggest backward changes from NS1 IMO; the current wall jump is kind of weird and most people i see using it spam jump all over the place making their model harder to hit, which is not really skillful. I know other people that would prefer bunny hop return also, as it truly took skill and finesse to master. I also know however that a lot of people dislike it because they think it breaks the immersion or they think it looks bad. To each his own, but to instantly dismiss someone’s arguments just because they like/supported bunny hopping is very unprofessional. It is unfortunate that the NS community has always had such a harsh divide between the player base that makes such issues virtually impossible to discuss. I would love to see bunny hop and the movement from NS1 return as is, however I know the chances of that are unlikely/impossible. I do think that movement from NS1 for skulk and marine should be looked at however, at least on a basic level. The marine especially feels sluggish and has little options once a skulk gets close. I miss being able to move intelligently and jump backwards over the skulk, or jump up to something and jump away for the extra distance needed for the kill. For the skulk I think that some sort of movement ability needs to be developed that allows skulks to close distance quickly, but without being a single button push. Working on the basic wall jump, perhaps you could have the bonus be small at first, but stack for cumulative jumps in a consistent direction. This would allow the skulk to hop from object to object building some speed, but would require more skill then the current implementation. From there the skulk also needs more air control, to allow you to get the direction and orientation needed to chain jumps for quick distance coverage.
On a side note I still believe there are problems with skulk model rotation or something with the lag compensation, as there are skulks that I cannot kill in an entire clip but others that die to the usual 15-20 bullets.
<!--quoteo(post=1900824:date=Feb 8 2012, 03:32 AM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Feb 8 2012, 03:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is one of the biggest backward changes from NS1 IMO; the current wall jump is kind of weird and most people i see using it spam jump all over the place making their model harder to hit, which is not really skillful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't expect people to have learned the new walljump already. No one will learn the new jumping system in a week. Or even in a month. If it's kept at it is, it will require up to a year of practise so that you can use it effectively/intuitively in combat situations and in getting around the map. This is good. I <b>want</b> to learn something new. It's also easy to learn and very hard to master.
However, Yuuki's momentum fademod adds a small bunnyhop feature for the fade that you can use together with the blink to conserve energy. I like that.
If the ability does bug the hit box then it would be, but its hard to say if it does or if the model rotation is so fast or jarring that its near impossible to track. I do not believe that the wall jump is a real deep skill based movement, as there is not a lot of depth to it currently.
I do think that Yuuki's fade mod sounds excellent however.
<!--quoteo(post=1900817:date=Feb 7 2012, 08:07 PM:name=MrGunner)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrGunner @ Feb 7 2012, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game doesn't need it to be fun to play though and it did cause lots of problems with NS1 so it will be nice to see how it plays without it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What kind of problems did it cause with NS1? I can't imagine playing NS1 without it to be quite honest. Also I'm not trying to be a bunny hop fan boy or anything, if there is a fully developed concept that can replace bunny hopping as a deep, skillful movement system then I would be all for it.
Bunny hopping really isn't fun or skillful although I suppose both are subjective. In any case they have stated a desire to experiment with new and innovative movement mechanics and people are actually suggesting they simply use bunny hopping... whoa.
It's not impossible to bhop in ns2, you just have to hold forward in combination with the strafe keys now (as opposed to just the strafe keys). You won't gain the speed boost from stafe jumping alone, but the air control is almost exactly the same and if you combine it with some wallhops you <i>will</i> gain the extra speed. Takes a little practice but it's essentially the same once you get the hang of it. No real need to hold crouch anymore either. Just wish I could bind mwheeldown +jump :p
Ahh the bunnyhop. I really enjoyed it in NS1, and spent plenty of time arguing about it with people on the forums. I don't game competitively anymore so it isn't something that I will miss all that much. For casual players hard to master skills like the bunnyhop only serve to make the game more frustrating. It's hard for them to do themselves as aliens, hard for them to counter as marines, and gives players who can do it a considerable advantage over them.
Competitive players would argue that this is as it should be, but I think the thing that makes bunnyhopping particularly frustrating is that it is an all or none skill. You have to have it down near perfect for it to be useful. That's not how most skills work. You can gradually get better at almost any other skill in the game. Bunnyhopping is one of the few you can't (although jump scripts did make it easier/more user friendly).
That said, I think the biggest challenge to balancing Natural Selection is having one side that is hit scan and one side that is melee. In casual play this isn't too hard, but once you get to a competitive level the improved aim of marines can really unbalance the gameplay. There are plenty of obvious changes you can make to even this out, such is adjusting damage or making mechanics like invisibility. For competitive play however, I think the preferred solution is to have mechanics that include a skill factor.
Obviously, competitive play is not going to be the highest priority. It would however be fun to see a "hardcore" mode, or "competitive" mode explored at some point to try to experiment with mechanics that do this. Location based damage would be an obvious direction to try. Things like, parasite to the head has some effect (such as obscuring vision briefly).
<!--quoteo(post=1900829:date=Feb 7 2012, 10:05 PM:name=DooM-AU)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DooM-AU @ Feb 7 2012, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->E to the X to the P to the L to the O to the I to the T.
Lol skill, yea because deliberately causing your hit-box's to mess up is a "skill based movement".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I absolutely don't understand this. Do you think bunnyhopping "messes up" hitboxes? Do you seriously not enjoy bhop/strafejumping in fps games?
There are these things called 'consoles' that have FPS games on them too...
<!--quoteo(post=1900836:date=Feb 7 2012, 10:32 PM:name=Dergless)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dergless @ Feb 7 2012, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900836"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What kind of problems did it cause with NS1? I can't imagine playing NS1 without it to be quite honest. Also I'm not trying to be a bunny hop fan boy or anything, if there is a fully developed concept that can replace bunny hopping as a deep, skillful movement system then I would be all for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was exceptionally hard for most people to really excell and get the most out of bunnyhopping. I was pretty damn good at it by the end of ns1 as I practiced continuously but civilian would always be faster than me just because he was even better than I was. Also having air movement acceleration allowed for marines to move nearly as fast as skulks in certain areas and by using certain moves which made skulking incredibly hard for novice players. Yes it allowed for more skilled play at high level as most of the players in Cal Delta were exceptionally proficient at it but it made the divide between competitive players and normal players quite large.
The largest problem for competitive play in NS1 was the fact that most players felt that to play competitively they would have to cheat somehow or exploit the game in order to compete with top players. Most of these "pub" players blamed scripting and many other things for the fact that other players were better than them even though most servers ran with consistency off which allowed all players to use custom models. This meant that people could play with cool reskins and neat looking gun models, but it also meant that I could go on most servers with bright pink skinned skulks that had spikes sticking out of them for 4 feet in every direction so I could see them around corners with ease. Not that I ever actually did this because it would be silly but it is just an example.
For NS2 to be a competitive game, which is a good thing as you can tell from other competitive games like Counterstrike, is to have easy entry level play with a lot of depth. Bunny hopping mechanics and other NS1 "exploitive" behaviours such as wigglewalking, while rewarding when you have learned to do them well, are unintuitive and hard to pick up initially thus making the game overly difficult for beginners. This makes them less likely to stick with the game and get better at it.
<!--quoteo(post=1900873:date=Feb 8 2012, 12:06 AM:name=MrGunner)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrGunner @ Feb 8 2012, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was exceptionally hard for most people to really excell and get the most out of bunnyhopping. I was pretty damn good at it by the end of ns1 as I practiced continuously but civilian would always be faster than me just because he was even better than I was. Also having air movement acceleration allowed for marines to move nearly as fast as skulks in certain areas and by using certain moves which made skulking incredibly hard for novice players. Yes it allowed for more skilled play at high level as most of the players in Cal Delta were exceptionally proficient at it but it made the divide between competitive players and normal players quite large.
The largest problem for competitive play in NS1 was the fact that most players felt that to play competitively they would have to cheat somehow or exploit the game in order to compete with top players. Most of these "pub" players blamed scripting and many other things for the fact that other players were better than them even though most servers ran with consistency off which allowed all players to use custom models. This meant that people could play with cool reskins and neat looking gun models, but it also meant that I could go on most servers with bright pink skinned skulks that had spikes sticking out of them for 4 feet in every direction so I could see them around corners with ease. Not that I ever actually did this because it would be silly but it is just an example.
For NS2 to be a competitive game, which is a good thing as you can tell from other competitive games like Counterstrike, is to have easy entry level play with a lot of depth. Bunny hopping mechanics and other NS1 "exploitive" behaviours such as wigglewalking, while rewarding when you have learned to do them well, are unintuitive and hard to pick up initially thus making the game overly difficult for beginners. This makes them less likely to stick with the game and get better at it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so then simplify bunnyhopping so it's easier to learn
e.g. holding down space makes you continuously jump so you don't have to mwheel hop
Hasn't the competitive vs pub concept been shown to be a circular argument? chicken or the egg idea? does a big pub base give rise to a competitive sceen or does a competitve aspect attract a large pub base?
Its not really a circular argument, as a good popular pub game does not make it a competitive game. Likewise, some competitive games make bad pub games. The trick is in the balance, where the game has enough skill requirement and depth, but is relatively easy to pickup and rewarding. NS1 had 3 of those 4 I think, the only thing it was lacking was ease of pickup. Look at Quake, new players would get absolutely destroyed by regulars, who would get destroyed by pros. That game still manages to attract a large player base, even before automatic matchmaking. I think NS2 is setting up to possibly be much more of a pub style game, which while not a huge problem, it will take away from the game and what it is/was, and I think shorten its life overall. I do believe that counterstrike is a great example of this, with the release of CS:Source, CS 1.6 would have completely died if not for the competitive scene, which has kept it alive and arguably more popular that source.
There has always been a lot of tension between the competitive players and pub players in NS, and for NS2 to become the great successor to the first, the community needs to accept and discuss ideas from both sides in a logical and calm method. Not everyone here is looking for NS1 with updated graphics, I look forward to changes and new additions in NS2 that work with within the genre, but I want to see more of the NS1 fast movement and quick thinking retained, and have a game that is successful in pubs and competitions both.
My problem with Wall jumping replacing bunny hopping is simply this:
Bunny Hop required: Floors (everywhere)
Wall Jumping requires: Walls (not everywhere)
Not to mention it is easy to see which wall a skulk will go for since it is usually the closest one. Using the floor and air finesse has so many more options than walls and jumping. We all know where i stand on BHop. I love it and there still hasnt been a good argument for not having it included. Origins of it doesnt matter, breaking immersion is a flimsy argument (which i can apply anywhere), and it doesnt distort hit boxes (only makes your movements hard to track, which is high level play BHopping made you track-able lol.). But ya... there are plenty of good forum threads about this that were locked before their time and some great ones that got locked, then unlocked just to die out.
I would really love to see a serious argument brought to the table on why BHop isnt in NS2. And when i say brought to NS2, i mean have the jump be easier to accomplish automatically (like the jump script). Make Air Control the finesse involved and speed gain slightly easier to maintain.
Assuming that your purpose in BHopping is to gain speed: Even with a script, you're still having to rotate the view left and right while using the strafe keys left and right without ever holding the forward key. This is not intuitive, and because it is not intuitive, BHop is not in NS2.
I've never been a fan of bunny hopping, I think it's rediculous and well, I like to have some immersion in games, even online multiplayer games. Bunny hopping destroys that immersion.
Wall jumping however seems very plausible and is exciting from both perspectives(I can wall jump as a skulk yes):
as a marine, it's a freakout moment when you realise you just lost your ###### and can't remember how to aim because of this skulk hurtling towards you at speeds far greater than expected.
as a skulk, it's really fun moving so fast the marine loses his ###### and can't hit you due to what i said before.
But at the same time, it's not overpowered because you can't do it anywhere, resulting in player positioning becoming critical again in order to increase your chances of survival.
Finally, wall hopping, the feature that allows a momentary increase in speed in tight areas allows the alien skulks a chance early game, when they cannot leap... before wall hopping/jumping skulks would get hammered because they cannot manuever fast enough to dodge the bullets.
BTW, it's not hitboxes glitching, the skulk is moving so fast he is actually dodging the aim of the marine. I know, I've taken down a skulk going ape ###### before, all I had to do was aim correctly(as in, put my crosshair on the skulk, rather than in front or behind it) and he goes down.
<!--quoteo(post=1900903:date=Feb 8 2012, 09:24 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 8 2012, 09:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Assuming that your purpose in BHopping is to gain speed: Even with a script, you're still having to rotate the view left and right while using the strafe keys left and right without ever holding the forward key. This is not intuitive, and because it is not intuitive, BHop is not in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Currently with how the walljump boost works, you can jump from a single wall, do an U-turn in air and land on the same wall with your newly gained speed boost. It's tricky to pull off but in time people will learn it. I don't see how that is any more intuitive to do in places where there's only one wall to use reasonably.
<!--quoteo(post=1900903:date=Feb 8 2012, 09:24 AM:name=DooM-AU)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DooM-AU @ Feb 8 2012, 09:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stuff<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Get a load of this guy.
<!--quoteo(post=1900873:date=Feb 8 2012, 05:06 AM:name=MrGunner)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrGunner @ Feb 8 2012, 05:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes it allowed for more skilled play at high level as most of the players in Cal Delta were exceptionally proficient at it but it made the divide between competitive players and normal players quite large.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Isn't this true about any well designed game? I think that having a large divide between an expert player and a beginner is a good thing. I can't think of any successful game or sport where that is not the case - as it would just become boring to play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The largest problem for competitive play in NS1 was the fact that most players felt that to play competitively they would have to cheat somehow or exploit the game in order to compete with top players. Most of these "pub" players blamed scripting and many other things for the fact that other players were better than them...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has been the case for every multiplayer game I have played. Public players will always claim that people are hacking or using exploits. Almost all of the top DOD:S players were banned from most pub servers because they were simply too good and people would whine when they get killed over and over.
IMO this is a sign that the game is well designed and has lots of depth and room to improve. The only problem is that most FPS games don't rank players or have any kind of matchmaking ability. Imagine going on a chess site and constantly being matched against grandmasters, you would very quickly become discouraged. The problem isn't that chess needs to be made easier for new players - it's simply that players need to be matches against opponents of similar skill. If you make game design choices based on trying to make it easier for newbies then ultimately the game will be worse off with less depth and less longevity.
Most video game designers don't seem to care about their multiplayer game having depth or lasting any length of time though. As long as they can sell many copies and people have fun playing it causally for a year or so then they are happy.
Comments
that is definitely true!
<!--quoteo(post=1870103:date=Aug 20 2011, 12:00 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 20 2011, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aaand another bunnyhopping thread crawls up out of the depths to terrorize the community forums with its endless circular arguments.
At this stage, it's unlikely that BH will make a return in its full NS1 glory, though we understand the value of it on the competitive side. The pros and cons of BH have been stated a million times, so I'm not going to get dragged into that, however I will say that we are working on a variety of ways to get more fleshed out skill based movement into the game, especially for the alien side. It won't be an across the board thing, the way BH was, but rather a focus on the particular aspects of movement of each player class that makes them unique.
So, for the Skulk, we are working on a wall hopping system that allows for increases in speed based off of timing jumps properly on varying surfaces. Walls, crates, railings, marine structures, etc, with the intention of getting the skulk off of the floor, and using the surrounding environment more. We may even have an early first pass at this for next patch, though no promises.
We have other plans for the rest of the aliens. For example, there is a lot we could do to really enhance his bellyslide, to make it much more maneuverable as a start, and then to potentially have skill based moves like jumps and drifting that can be performed. Lerk flight is being improved and will likely get more additions/improvements, Fade has blink which comes with a whole host of possibilities, and we've got some ideas already for an Onos charge type of movement system.
So, there's a long answer to the question of whether or not bunny hop will be in the game.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On a side note I still believe there are problems with skulk model rotation or something with the lag compensation, as there are skulks that I cannot kill in an entire clip but others that die to the usual 15-20 bullets.
You can't expect people to have learned the new walljump already. No one will learn the new jumping system in a week. Or even in a month. If it's kept at it is, it will require up to a year of practise so that you can use it effectively/intuitively in combat situations and in getting around the map. This is good. I <b>want</b> to learn something new. It's also easy to learn and very hard to master.
However, Yuuki's momentum fademod adds a small bunnyhop feature for the fade that you can use together with the blink to conserve energy. I like that.
Lol skill, yea because deliberately causing your hit-box's to mess up is a "skill based movement".
I do think that Yuuki's fade mod sounds excellent however.
What kind of problems did it cause with NS1? I can't imagine playing NS1 without it to be quite honest. Also I'm not trying to be a bunny hop fan boy or anything, if there is a fully developed concept that can replace bunny hopping as a deep, skillful movement system then I would be all for it.
Competitive players would argue that this is as it should be, but I think the thing that makes bunnyhopping particularly frustrating is that it is an all or none skill. You have to have it down near perfect for it to be useful. That's not how most skills work. You can gradually get better at almost any other skill in the game. Bunnyhopping is one of the few you can't (although jump scripts did make it easier/more user friendly).
That said, I think the biggest challenge to balancing Natural Selection is having one side that is hit scan and one side that is melee. In casual play this isn't too hard, but once you get to a competitive level the improved aim of marines can really unbalance the gameplay. There are plenty of obvious changes you can make to even this out, such is adjusting damage or making mechanics like invisibility. For competitive play however, I think the preferred solution is to have mechanics that include a skill factor.
Obviously, competitive play is not going to be the highest priority. It would however be fun to see a "hardcore" mode, or "competitive" mode explored at some point to try to experiment with mechanics that do this. Location based damage would be an obvious direction to try. Things like, parasite to the head has some effect (such as obscuring vision briefly).
Lol skill, yea because deliberately causing your hit-box's to mess up is a "skill based movement".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I absolutely don't understand this. Do you think bunnyhopping "messes up" hitboxes? Do you seriously not enjoy bhop/strafejumping in fps games?
There are these things called 'consoles' that have FPS games on them too...
It was exceptionally hard for most people to really excell and get the most out of bunnyhopping. I was pretty damn good at it by the end of ns1 as I practiced continuously but civilian would always be faster than me just because he was even better than I was. Also having air movement acceleration allowed for marines to move nearly as fast as skulks in certain areas and by using certain moves which made skulking incredibly hard for novice players. Yes it allowed for more skilled play at high level as most of the players in Cal Delta were exceptionally proficient at it but it made the divide between competitive players and normal players quite large.
The largest problem for competitive play in NS1 was the fact that most players felt that to play competitively they would have to cheat somehow or exploit the game in order to compete with top players. Most of these "pub" players blamed scripting and many other things for the fact that other players were better than them even though most servers ran with consistency off which allowed all players to use custom models. This meant that people could play with cool reskins and neat looking gun models, but it also meant that I could go on most servers with bright pink skinned skulks that had spikes sticking out of them for 4 feet in every direction so I could see them around corners with ease. Not that I ever actually did this because it would be silly but it is just an example.
For NS2 to be a competitive game, which is a good thing as you can tell from other competitive games like Counterstrike, is to have easy entry level play with a lot of depth. Bunny hopping mechanics and other NS1 "exploitive" behaviours such as wigglewalking, while rewarding when you have learned to do them well, are unintuitive and hard to pick up initially thus making the game overly difficult for beginners. This makes them less likely to stick with the game and get better at it.
The largest problem for competitive play in NS1 was the fact that most players felt that to play competitively they would have to cheat somehow or exploit the game in order to compete with top players. Most of these "pub" players blamed scripting and many other things for the fact that other players were better than them even though most servers ran with consistency off which allowed all players to use custom models. This meant that people could play with cool reskins and neat looking gun models, but it also meant that I could go on most servers with bright pink skinned skulks that had spikes sticking out of them for 4 feet in every direction so I could see them around corners with ease. Not that I ever actually did this because it would be silly but it is just an example.
For NS2 to be a competitive game, which is a good thing as you can tell from other competitive games like Counterstrike, is to have easy entry level play with a lot of depth. Bunny hopping mechanics and other NS1 "exploitive" behaviours such as wigglewalking, while rewarding when you have learned to do them well, are unintuitive and hard to pick up initially thus making the game overly difficult for beginners. This makes them less likely to stick with the game and get better at it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so then simplify bunnyhopping so it's easier to learn
e.g. holding down space makes you continuously jump so you don't have to mwheel hop
Loop: see Loop.
There has always been a lot of tension between the competitive players and pub players in NS, and for NS2 to become the great successor to the first, the community needs to accept and discuss ideas from both sides in a logical and calm method. Not everyone here is looking for NS1 with updated graphics, I look forward to changes and new additions in NS2 that work with within the genre, but I want to see more of the NS1 fast movement and quick thinking retained, and have a game that is successful in pubs and competitions both.
The 'skill' as it is now is to time your movement in the air so that you land on another nice flat wall durface you can jump off
time it right and you can do a double wall jump similar to a double leap
imo it will end up req more skill than bhopping because environment pays a huge factor
re: exploit due to hit boxes, thats a seperate issue/bug so i wouldnt use it to say whether wall jump is good or bad
Bunny Hop required: Floors (everywhere)
Wall Jumping requires: Walls (not everywhere)
Not to mention it is easy to see which wall a skulk will go for since it is usually the closest one. Using the floor and air finesse has so many more options than walls and jumping. We all know where i stand on BHop. I love it and there still hasnt been a good argument for not having it included. Origins of it doesnt matter, breaking immersion is a flimsy argument (which i can apply anywhere), and it doesnt distort hit boxes (only makes your movements hard to track, which is high level play BHopping made you track-able lol.). But ya... there are plenty of good forum threads about this that were locked before their time and some great ones that got locked, then unlocked just to die out.
I would really love to see a serious argument brought to the table on why BHop isnt in NS2. And when i say brought to NS2, i mean have the jump be easier to accomplish automatically (like the jump script). Make Air Control the finesse involved and speed gain slightly easier to maintain.
If only :(
Wall jumping however seems very plausible and is exciting from both perspectives(I can wall jump as a skulk yes):
as a marine, it's a freakout moment when you realise you just lost your ###### and can't remember how to aim because of this skulk hurtling towards you at speeds far greater than expected.
as a skulk, it's really fun moving so fast the marine loses his ###### and can't hit you due to what i said before.
But at the same time, it's not overpowered because you can't do it anywhere, resulting in player positioning becoming critical again in order to increase your chances of survival.
Finally, wall hopping, the feature that allows a momentary increase in speed in tight areas allows the alien skulks a chance early game, when they cannot leap... before wall hopping/jumping skulks would get hammered because they cannot manuever fast enough to dodge the bullets.
BTW, it's not hitboxes glitching, the skulk is moving so fast he is actually dodging the aim of the marine. I know, I've taken down a skulk going ape ###### before, all I had to do was aim correctly(as in, put my crosshair on the skulk, rather than in front or behind it) and he goes down.
Currently with how the walljump boost works, you can jump from a single wall, do an U-turn in air and land on the same wall with your newly gained speed boost. It's tricky to pull off but in time people will learn it. I don't see how that is any more intuitive to do in places where there's only one wall to use reasonably.
<!--quoteo(post=1900903:date=Feb 8 2012, 09:24 AM:name=DooM-AU)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DooM-AU @ Feb 8 2012, 09:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stuff<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Get a load of this guy.
Isn't this true about any well designed game? I think that having a large divide between an expert player and a beginner is a good thing. I can't think of any successful game or sport where that is not the case - as it would just become boring to play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The largest problem for competitive play in NS1 was the fact that most players felt that to play competitively they would have to cheat somehow or exploit the game in order to compete with top players. Most of these "pub" players blamed scripting and many other things for the fact that other players were better than them...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has been the case for every multiplayer game I have played. Public players will always claim that people are hacking or using exploits. Almost all of the top DOD:S players were banned from most pub servers because they were simply too good and people would whine when they get killed over and over.
IMO this is a sign that the game is well designed and has lots of depth and room to improve. The only problem is that most FPS games don't rank players or have any kind of matchmaking ability. Imagine going on a chess site and constantly being matched against grandmasters, you would very quickly become discouraged. The problem isn't that chess needs to be made easier for new players - it's simply that players need to be matches against opponents of similar skill. If you make game design choices based on trying to make it easier for newbies then ultimately the game will be worse off with less depth and less longevity.
Most video game designers don't seem to care about their multiplayer game having depth or lasting any length of time though. As long as they can sell many copies and people have fun playing it causally for a year or so then they are happy.