<!--quoteo(post=1900301:date=Feb 7 2012, 03:00 AM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Feb 7 2012, 03:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd prefer something that isn't plain annoying on the receiving end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Such as?
Disrupting a reload would be useful in combat, but is nothing so debilitating (or unrealistic) as a stun. There is also a very small time window where it is of any use, so observation and timing would be critical. Naturally, I would hope that stomp has a significant energy cost or a significant cooldown, so that you could not forever keep a player from reloading, at least without some significant cost.
Sending a marine up into the air about half jump-height doesn't take control away from the player or change the player's forward orientation (i.e. camera pitch or yaw), but does mean they have to slightly correct their aim to keep on a target - very slightly or not at all when it comes to the onos, who is such a big target, so it's better as a support ability. It is also good feedback for when a player is affected by stomp.
L4D was awful from a competitive standpoint. Lots of people played it, but very few played at high level, especially compared to the player base. I would argue that is not solely because it took control away from the player. It was also due to the bad controls that put a low ceiling on movement skill, but this tied into the types of zombie attacks available. Movement skill is not a priority with those type of abilities.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1900496:date=Feb 6 2012, 09:16 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (juice @ Feb 6 2012, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900496"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->L4D was awful from a competitive standpoint. Lots of people played it, but very few played at high level, especially compared to the player base. I would argue that is not solely because it took control away from the player. It was also due to the bad controls that put a low ceiling on movement skill, but this tied into the types of zombie attacks available. Movement skill is not a priority with those type of abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let's not compare zombies to oranges. L4D was obviously made to be a fun game foremost, rather than being a ultra competitive game. The AI director and its unpredictable spawning of zombies succeeded in making the game a fun movie-like experience, too tongue-in-cheek to be taken seriously.
DOTA has the most ridiculous number of long duration of stuns in any competitive game. Yet it is hugely popular and successful as a competitive game.
As long as the Onos stun abilities aren't too over the top, a little stun would add some spice to the game, and prevent the Onos from becoming a huge pinata.
In L4D the stuns were intentionally brutal in order to force the survivor side to work together as a team and not get separated. It's a completely different type of game though as you are running from point A to point B with the infected trying to stop you. NS2 has more in common with traditional team deathmatch games.
In general I think that stuns and taking control away from the player are bad as it can often feel like there was nothing you could do to prevent being attacked while you are stunned. I always think the more enjoyable games (and less frustrating) are the ones in which you feel like there was always something you could have done differently and it was your own failure or the other players success that caused you to die. It's also more enjoyable to feel like you are always in control - I think most people agree that getting stuck in canned animations is not a fun mechanic.
I guess if the onos can just whack away marines similar to the tank in L4D then it wouldn't be so bad, as long as you weren't a sitting duck on the ground for any length of time.
<!--quoteo(post=1900535:date=Feb 7 2012, 08:13 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Feb 7 2012, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In L4D the stuns were intentionally brutal in order to force the survivor side to work together as a team and not get separated. It's a completely different type of game though as you are running from point A to point B with the infected trying to stop you. NS2 has more in common with traditional team deathmatch games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is my main point, I guess.
Valve does very purposeful design in general. L4D is built strictly around the survivor team and the stun mechanics support that. The gameplay structure and autodirector also try to make sure that fights stay meaningul even with the stun mechanics - the fights are often built so that you can get stunned a here and there and it's not like you've got fades and skulks instantly tearing you apart the moment you're hit by a stun.
---
As for NS2 I don't know. The NS1 onos never was a that big of an issue for me, but it certainly could turn out to be one if the onos became a regular everyday lifeform. If there really, really has to be a stun, one thingy that might help is making the onos difficult to control at high speeds so that you can usually dodge or force the onos to slow down. That way can have at least some ways to control the situation rather than getting stunned to death right away.
It would make sense for onoses to push marines out of their way while moving. Possibly with the exception of exo suit. From my reasonable experience with horses, it's clear that if it wants to push you aside, you just deal with being pushed aside. Or produce an apple.
<!--quoteo(post=1900563:date=Feb 7 2012, 04:22 AM:name=reh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reh @ Feb 7 2012, 04:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would make sense for onoses to push marines out of their way while moving. Possibly with the exception of exo suit. From my reasonable experience with horses, it's clear that if it wants to push you aside, you just deal with being pushed aside. Or produce an apple.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just attack and they push marines out of the way.... if the onos just had to run thru marines to make them fall then it'd be OP... but aliens may need that with the implementation of exo and mini guns.
<!--quoteo(post=1900565:date=Feb 7 2012, 09:23 AM:name=Sampson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sampson @ Feb 7 2012, 09:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->just attack and they push marines out of the way.... if the onos just had to run thru marines to make them fall then it'd be OP... but aliens may need that with the implementation of exo and mini guns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I meant pushing marines out of the way, while the onos normally moves, simply because of the mass difference between an onos and a human. Without stunning or damaging the marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1900570:date=Feb 7 2012, 04:31 AM:name=reh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reh @ Feb 7 2012, 04:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I meant pushing marines out of the way, while the onos normally moves, simply because of the mass difference between an onos and a human. Without stunning or damaging the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no i understand you. im just saying atm it'd be a bit OP... maybe once the exo is introduced it'd work... otherwise 1 onos could run over a team and then destroy a power node solo lol
<!--quoteo(post=1900572:date=Feb 7 2012, 09:36 AM:name=Sampson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sampson @ Feb 7 2012, 09:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no i understand you. im just saying atm it'd be a bit OP... maybe once the exo is introduced it'd work... otherwise 1 onos could run over a team and then destroy a power node solo lol<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see, you're thinking in terms of game balance and I, more immersion wise. Some middle point is needed then. My idea could spoil balance and current state spoils immersion.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's problem is clipping map features that slow his momentum ability and team players blocking escape. He should just run over skulks and gorges and lerks they are small lifeforms that should not block him ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a more serious problem, onos blocking was a major source of aggressiveness ("###### you blocked me and I died because of it") between players. Onos should crush skulk and gorges when he walks on them.
<!--quoteo(post=1900575:date=Feb 7 2012, 09:45 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 7 2012, 09:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900575"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a more serious problem, onos blocking was a major source of aggressiveness ("###### you blocked me and I died because of it") between players. Onos should crush skulk and gorges when he walks on them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's introducing a new source of aggressiveness. Why not gently push them aside? :)
<!--quoteo(post=1900577:date=Feb 7 2012, 04:49 AM:name=reh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reh @ Feb 7 2012, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's introducing a new source of aggressiveness. Why not gently push them aside? :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually, i think you'd like this:
depending on speed (have a set speed), u can actually knockback marines (like in NS1, without the stun and vision blur)..... the vision blur and fall would come with the attack like it does now.
maybe have the knockback for a specific speed not do dmg to balance it some
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's introducing a new source of aggressiveness. Why not gently push them aside? :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. Maybe the skulks could walk on the onos, so they can bypass him easily. And the onos could gently take a gorge in his mouth and carry it around :)
<!--quoteo(post=1900579:date=Feb 7 2012, 10:03 AM:name=Sampson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sampson @ Feb 7 2012, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900579"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->actually, i think you'd like this:
depending on speed (have a set speed), u can actually knockback marines (like in NS1, without the stun and vision blur)..... the vision blur and fall would come with the attack like it does now.
maybe have the knockback for a specific speed not do dmg to balance it some<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this could work.
<!--quoteo(post=1900581:date=Feb 7 2012, 10:06 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 7 2012, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True. Maybe the skulks could walk on the onos, so they can bypass him easily. And the onos could gently take a gorge in his mouth and carry it around :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not a bad idea at all, but I'm not sure how feasible it would be to code this. Could skulks use onoses as map geometry?
As for onos carrying gorge, I was actually fantasizing about exactly this a couple of weeks ago. From practical point of view, it shouldn't be too difficult to code. Remember the lerk mod for ns1, when lerk could pick up a gorge and swing it across the map? Might look a bit ridiculous though, a gorge dangling from onos' mouth by the scruff of his neck.
Not sure if anyone said this yet. If you don't want to make marines feel helpless from an immobilizing stomp, why not just add a slowing effect. Example, movement speed reduced to 60% (or 70% what ever works best), 10% speed is regained every second until speed is back to 100%. That would give the Onos at least a chance to catch up to his prey as it takes it time accelerating like a big train. The marine would not be completely out of luck since he can still move. He could jump over a railing, or behind a structure, run to other marines, etc... And within a few seconds would be back at full speed to run away or towards the Onos.
That being said, if something like that is implemented, stomp would need a high adrenaline cost or a cooldown of some sort.
Oh and I really liked someone's idea of a knockback when at full speed. Its really quite fair, just don't stand in front of a freight train. This could force marines to use walls and other obstacles to slow down the Onos and engage more cautiously, instead of running at it like rambo . The developers added the slowing down when turning to make the size more realistic, but if you are going for the realistic approach then the size of the Onos needs to account for something other than disadvantages. Right now its just a big, slow and soft bullet sponge with a powerful horn.
<!--quoteo(post=1900425:date=Feb 7 2012, 01:40 AM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Feb 7 2012, 01:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900425"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the Onos is pretty perfect.
It's problem is clipping map features that slow his momentum ability and team players blocking escape. He should just run over skulks and gorges and lerks they are small lifeforms that should not block him ever.
Also bring back Devor. It was his best feature that truly made marines fear him.
Just don't punish the marine with waiting in the belly. Add the marine to the IP spawn que immedialty. His team mates can rescue him before the IP spawns him.
And punish the onos for the devor instant kill by making him run slower or he can't stomp or something. There should be a draw back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT! This! I think absolutely the same. Especially with the clipping. Turn it off! Blocking gorges while retreating is absolutely frustrating.
<!--quoteo(post=1900535:date=Feb 7 2012, 08:13 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Feb 7 2012, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In L4D the stuns were intentionally brutal in order to force the survivor side to work together as a team and not get separated. It's a completely different type of game though as you are running from point A to point B with the infected trying to stop you. NS2 has more in common with traditional team deathmatch games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It may be a different type of game, but it still uses game design to lead players to a somewhat natural feeling teamplay, that's a lesson that can be learned from L4D.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In general I think that stuns and taking control away from the player are bad as it can often feel like there was nothing you could do to prevent being attacked while you are stunned. I always think the more enjoyable games (and less frustrating) are the ones in which you feel like there was always something you could have done differently and it was your own failure or the other players success that caused you to die. It's also more enjoyable to feel like you are always in control - I think most people agree that getting stuck in canned animations is not a fun mechanic.
I guess if the onos can just whack away marines similar to the tank in L4D then it wouldn't be so bad, as long as you weren't a sitting duck on the ground for any length of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I strongly have to disagree with that, if we would be designing a single player experience where the flow of the game is driven by the "constant fun of the individual" then some of what you said might apply. But NS2 is a RTS-FPS mix with an heavy focus on teamplay.
In such a game you need to put players into their place, if players have the impression they can "beat anything themself" or "they could have done differently" you will just motivate people to rambo. After all when a players dies to something and thinks "hey i know how i could beat that!" he will just respawn and rambo there again to try his new approach.
Now imagine the player encounters something horribly frustrating where the solution is not instantly obvious, that scares him, makes him look for alternate approaches to the problem. One of them probably ends up with "okay let's just stick with other guys, if i can't figure it out, maybe they can".
Because that's the beauty of many of these "stun, blind, snare" mechanics if you build them well then simple teamplay can render them useless.
And because of all this i really think we shouldn't be too scared of adding such mechanics to something like the Onos, the Onos is the strongest lifeform on the alien side. It sure as hell should frustrate marines fighting against that thing. And a single unprepared marine meeting the onos shouldn't think "well i could have beat that if i would have done this and that" but rather that marines should think "JESUS CHRIST I NEED MORE PEOPLE TO HANDLE THIS".
Making the onos just a huge bullet sponge is an boring way to reach this effect, an way more interesting and fun way would be to add mechanics that annoy a single marine but can be rendered useless by teamplay on the marine side.
Stomp and Devour in NS1 managed to hit this middle ground perfectly.. i still don't understand why we need to remove them.
Stomp might have been strong and overpowered in certain situations, but a smart marine squad would allways spread out to prevent getting stunlocked all together. But that wouldn't work so well in the crowded small maps of NS2...
Devour might have been strong and annoying, but it added the gameplay mechanic of "rescuing your marine buddy, or at least his equipment" which lead to quite a few entertaining situations and adds alot of risk-reward choices for both teams.
NS1 worked because of these things, i don't think NS2 should be seen as a way to "Change things that allways annoyed somebody about NS1". Because to other people many of these things had been what made NS1 so great and unique in the first place. Don't try fixing something that ain't broken, many NS1 mechanics are place because they somply work (but it looks like many people don't even understand WHY they work...), throwing these lessons away would be kinda stupid.
<!--quoteo(post=1900356:date=Feb 6 2012, 10:27 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Feb 6 2012, 10:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...] However, with Gore, you get hit and see your view model hands flailing around, while you fly through the air, and your view height drops to the ground, etc. While it serves the same purpose as a stun, it feels less like a bug, and is less frustrating because there is more visual stimuli to keep it interesting and inform you what is happening.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like that. Even though the movement (and aiming) in NS2 still feels a little bit jerky/squishy sometimes, this "feeling" for the player-avatar's body is something I really miss in a lot of games. Mirror's Edge did a great job with handling this.
(Btw. I think the collision models for the different characters in NS2 should not be simple plain tubes, as they are now, I guess? - There was a video somewhere. These tube-collisionmodels a lot of times result in things like getting stuck, not being able to move past certain things, etc.)
<!--quoteo(post=1900638:date=Feb 7 2012, 02:30 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Feb 7 2012, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stomp and Devour in NS1 managed to hit this middle ground perfectly.. i still don't understand why we need to remove them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, Stomp didn't really bother me in NS1 either. Probably because Stomp was a pure support ability, usually executed from range. If your squad was spread out (which it should have been) then some members continued firing at the onos or other incoming attackers. It was very risky for the onos to engage a group of marines, so you had a chance to make it out alive. I also hate when attacks affect my view - the NS1 stomp was tolerable in that regard. Gore in NS2 on the other hand is a high damage attack. Once you've been hit it is usually over, the onos is already close and you can't do anything to stop it. When I think of stuns in RTS games they usually deal very low damage or sometimes none at all. I think that is a good design approach - clearly separating high damage from support abilities.
Devour (an essentially one-hit kill move with an extra respawn time penalty) will not be compatible with NS2's current resource system, because there is no <b>pooled</b> resource scarcity and therefore no unit scarcity. What this means is that once oni become unlocked, almost everyone will be able to go oni all at once. So devour would essentially be giving the alien team the ability to take the entire marine team out of the game all at once.
<!--quoteo(post=1900878:date=Feb 7 2012, 11:37 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 7 2012, 11:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Devour (an essentially one-hit kill move with an extra respawn time penalty) will not be compatible with NS2's current resource system, because there is no <b>pooled</b> resource scarcity and therefore no unit scarcity. What this means is that once oni become unlocked, almost everyone will be able to go oni all at once. So devour would essentially be giving the alien team the ability to take the entire marine team out of the game all at once.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not applicable in the slightest. You are assuming every alien will go onos together, then attack together and eat the humans at the same time. This will never happen because it just isn't feasible. Also, at this point in the game it would be moot anyway, the humans would have to be at a point where they have already lost. Point being Devour is fine for NS2
<!--quoteo(post=1900878:date=Feb 8 2012, 01:37 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 8 2012, 01:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Devour (an essentially one-hit kill move with an extra respawn time penalty) will not be compatible with NS2's current resource system, because there is no <b>pooled</b> resource scarcity and therefore no unit scarcity. What this means is that once oni become unlocked, almost everyone will be able to go oni all at once. So devour would essentially be giving the alien team the ability to take the entire marine team out of the game all at once.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1900890:date=Feb 8 2012, 02:25 PM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Feb 8 2012, 02:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is not applicable in the slightest. You are assuming every alien will go onos together, then attack together and eat the humans at the same time. This will never happen because it just isn't feasible. Also, at this point in the game it would be moot anyway, the humans would have to be at a point where they have already lost. Point being Devour is fine for NS2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because you never get (almost) whole teams of lerks or whole teams of fades, right?
Aliens don't even have to all go oni together, because with devour he will have such high survivability as a hit-and-run unit, he can just wait until the rest of the team gets oni, and he won't even have to wait long.
The point is, entire teams evolving into oni is going to be a far more likely occurrence in NS2 than it would have been in NS1 (because in NS1, you <i>essentially</i> spent resources out of a team pool, so you going onos was a <b>team expense</b> - which is precisely why if you died right away as an onos, the whole team would be incredibly ###### with you), and devour would not be compatible with this possibility.
There should be no easy one-hit kills in NS2.
Devour is a skill-less weapon anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1900892:date=Feb 8 2012, 02:31 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 8 2012, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->not only that, but to do it over and over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly.
Nah, i don't think so. You can't attack with more than one onos at this time. They just clipping all the time. They need so much space to attack effective. A whole team of oni will simply die one after another because they block them self.
True. You need to take into account finite size effect, finite health, finite space, etc. Things scale linearly only in a narrow range of values.
As for one-hit kills, I would much prefer devour over gore, it's much more original and emblematic of ns ("the game where you can be eaten alive"). Just shorten the digestion time for the marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1900638:date=Feb 7 2012, 01:30 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Feb 7 2012, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I strongly have to disagree with that, if we would be designing a single player experience where the flow of the game is driven by the "constant fun of the individual" then some of what you said might apply. But NS2 is a RTS-FPS mix with an heavy focus on teamplay.
In such a game you need to put players into their place, if players have the impression they can "beat anything themself" or "they could have done differently" you will just motivate people to rambo. After all when a players dies to something and thinks "hey i know how i could beat that!" he will just respawn and rambo there again to try his new approach.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think so. Team play will always win over solo players ramboing even in a game where the player has the possibility to beat anything. Try playing counter strike with some random pub players against any organised team and you won't get very far. You don't need to force players to work together, as working together will always be beneficial for your team. I think forcing players to require their team mates co-operation in order for them to do things will just lead to frustration.
L4D is actually not a very well designed game. It's fun to play causally with your friends but not much more than that. The competitive scene had to make many modifications as it was too easy at first and good teams would survive every round. It is also famous for having the most rage quits out of any game that I've played. Even organized teams would all quit after 1 mistake and almost no public game finishes with the same people who started playing. If anything it is direct evidence that those mechanics lead to frustrating gameplay for many players.
L4Ds infected side was also pretty boring to play (after the novelty wore off) as you had to rely on your team in order to have any kind of success. The individual classes are basically useless if they attack alone and there is no skill involved in their attacks. It basically all centres around teamwork and timing your attacks together. While teamwork is fun, I don't think it alone is enough to make a game enjoyable. For me the most enjoyable games are ones in which I can distinguish myself as a player as well as co-operate with team mates. A game like counter strike is the perfect example of this. There are no mechanics that directly force the players to work together and yet it still involves lots of team work.
IMO any time you feel like there was nothing you could or that the game was limiting you then that just leads to frustration, pure and simple. That doesn't mean a player would be able to just run off and kill the entire enemy team any more than they could in counter strike or most other team fps games. Things like defending RTs and attacking tech points already herd the players together - you don't need to force them by limiting their abilities.
i think in this case, the "victory condition" against an onos can include anything from actually killing it to escaping from it without dying. right now there are things you can do to escape from an onos, but they are very circumstantial. we'll just have to see what the final implementation of the onos looks like.
Dont add devour, it never worked, i could press to devour one 500 times and the marine was still there, while it was extremely powerful against me, and the others could even take me with jetpack 10 meters away from the onos in the first try... pretty unfair and made me ragequit lots of times. Plus, staring at the stomach of an onos is annoying.
Also, i say here again that the 1st view model of onos needs fixing, it is not bounded to an "onos" i can see gaps through it, making it separated of a body and floating.
Comments
Such as?
Disrupting a reload would be useful in combat, but is nothing so debilitating (or unrealistic) as a stun. There is also a very small time window where it is of any use, so observation and timing would be critical. Naturally, I would hope that stomp has a significant energy cost or a significant cooldown, so that you could not forever keep a player from reloading, at least without some significant cost.
Sending a marine up into the air about half jump-height doesn't take control away from the player or change the player's forward orientation (i.e. camera pitch or yaw), but does mean they have to slightly correct their aim to keep on a target - very slightly or not at all when it comes to the onos, who is such a big target, so it's better as a support ability. It is also good feedback for when a player is affected by stomp.
Let's not compare zombies to oranges. L4D was obviously made to be a fun game foremost, rather than being a ultra competitive game. The AI director and its unpredictable spawning of zombies succeeded in making the game a fun movie-like experience, too tongue-in-cheek to be taken seriously.
DOTA has the most ridiculous number of long duration of stuns in any competitive game. Yet it is hugely popular and successful as a competitive game.
As long as the Onos stun abilities aren't too over the top, a little stun would add some spice to the game, and prevent the Onos from becoming a huge pinata.
In general I think that stuns and taking control away from the player are bad as it can often feel like there was nothing you could do to prevent being attacked while you are stunned. I always think the more enjoyable games (and less frustrating) are the ones in which you feel like there was always something you could have done differently and it was your own failure or the other players success that caused you to die. It's also more enjoyable to feel like you are always in control - I think most people agree that getting stuck in canned animations is not a fun mechanic.
I guess if the onos can just whack away marines similar to the tank in L4D then it wouldn't be so bad, as long as you weren't a sitting duck on the ground for any length of time.
This is my main point, I guess.
Valve does very purposeful design in general. L4D is built strictly around the survivor team and the stun mechanics support that. The gameplay structure and autodirector also try to make sure that fights stay meaningul even with the stun mechanics - the fights are often built so that you can get stunned a here and there and it's not like you've got fades and skulks instantly tearing you apart the moment you're hit by a stun.
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As for NS2 I don't know. The NS1 onos never was a that big of an issue for me, but it certainly could turn out to be one if the onos became a regular everyday lifeform. If there really, really has to be a stun, one thingy that might help is making the onos difficult to control at high speeds so that you can usually dodge or force the onos to slow down. That way can have at least some ways to control the situation rather than getting stunned to death right away.
just attack and they push marines out of the way.... if the onos just had to run thru marines to make them fall then it'd be OP... but aliens may need that with the implementation of exo and mini guns.
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I meant pushing marines out of the way, while the onos normally moves, simply because of the mass difference between an onos and a human. Without stunning or damaging the marines.
no i understand you. im just saying atm it'd be a bit OP... maybe once the exo is introduced it'd work... otherwise 1 onos could run over a team and then destroy a power node solo lol
I see, you're thinking in terms of game balance and I, more immersion wise. Some middle point is needed then. My idea could spoil balance and current state spoils immersion.
This is a more serious problem, onos blocking was a major source of aggressiveness ("###### you blocked me and I died because of it") between players. Onos should crush skulk and gorges when he walks on them.
That's introducing a new source of aggressiveness. Why not gently push them aside? :)
actually, i think you'd like this:
depending on speed (have a set speed), u can actually knockback marines (like in NS1, without the stun and vision blur)..... the vision blur and fall would come with the attack like it does now.
maybe have the knockback for a specific speed not do dmg to balance it some
True. Maybe the skulks could walk on the onos, so they can bypass him easily. And the onos could gently take a gorge in his mouth and carry it around :)
depending on speed (have a set speed), u can actually knockback marines (like in NS1, without the stun and vision blur)..... the vision blur and fall would come with the attack like it does now.
maybe have the knockback for a specific speed not do dmg to balance it some<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this could work.
Not a bad idea at all, but I'm not sure how feasible it would be to code this. Could skulks use onoses as map geometry?
As for onos carrying gorge, I was actually fantasizing about exactly this a couple of weeks ago. From practical point of view, it shouldn't be too difficult to code. Remember the lerk mod for ns1, when lerk could pick up a gorge and swing it across the map? Might look a bit ridiculous though, a gorge dangling from onos' mouth by the scruff of his neck.
That being said, if something like that is implemented, stomp would need a high adrenaline cost or a cooldown of some sort.
Oh and I really liked someone's idea of a knockback when at full speed. Its really quite fair, just don't stand in front of a freight train. This could force marines to use walls and other obstacles to slow down the Onos and engage more cautiously, instead of running at it like rambo . The developers added the slowing down when turning to make the size more realistic, but if you are going for the realistic approach then the size of the Onos needs to account for something other than disadvantages. Right now its just a big, slow and soft bullet sponge with a powerful horn.
It's problem is clipping map features that slow his momentum ability and team players blocking escape. He should just run over skulks and gorges and lerks they are small lifeforms that should not block him ever.
Also bring back Devor. It was his best feature that truly made marines fear him.
Just don't punish the marine with waiting in the belly. Add the marine to the IP spawn que immedialty. His team mates can rescue him before the IP spawns him.
And punish the onos for the devor instant kill by making him run slower or he can't stomp or something. There should be a draw back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT! This! I think absolutely the same. Especially with the clipping. Turn it off! Blocking gorges while retreating is absolutely frustrating.
It may be a different type of game, but it still uses game design to lead players to a somewhat natural feeling teamplay, that's a lesson that can be learned from L4D.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In general I think that stuns and taking control away from the player are bad as it can often feel like there was nothing you could do to prevent being attacked while you are stunned. I always think the more enjoyable games (and less frustrating) are the ones in which you feel like there was always something you could have done differently and it was your own failure or the other players success that caused you to die. It's also more enjoyable to feel like you are always in control - I think most people agree that getting stuck in canned animations is not a fun mechanic.
I guess if the onos can just whack away marines similar to the tank in L4D then it wouldn't be so bad, as long as you weren't a sitting duck on the ground for any length of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I strongly have to disagree with that, if we would be designing a single player experience where the flow of the game is driven by the "constant fun of the individual" then some of what you said might apply. But NS2 is a RTS-FPS mix with an heavy focus on teamplay.
In such a game you need to put players into their place, if players have the impression they can "beat anything themself" or "they could have done differently" you will just motivate people to rambo. After all when a players dies to something and thinks "hey i know how i could beat that!" he will just respawn and rambo there again to try his new approach.
Now imagine the player encounters something horribly frustrating where the solution is not instantly obvious, that scares him, makes him look for alternate approaches to the problem. One of them probably ends up with "okay let's just stick with other guys, if i can't figure it out, maybe they can".
Because that's the beauty of many of these "stun, blind, snare" mechanics if you build them well then simple teamplay can render them useless.
And because of all this i really think we shouldn't be too scared of adding such mechanics to something like the Onos, the Onos is the strongest lifeform on the alien side. It sure as hell should frustrate marines fighting against that thing. And a single unprepared marine meeting the onos shouldn't think "well i could have beat that if i would have done this and that" but rather that marines should think "JESUS CHRIST I NEED MORE PEOPLE TO HANDLE THIS".
Making the onos just a huge bullet sponge is an boring way to reach this effect, an way more interesting and fun way would be to add mechanics that annoy a single marine but can be rendered useless by teamplay on the marine side.
Stomp and Devour in NS1 managed to hit this middle ground perfectly.. i still don't understand why we need to remove them.
Stomp might have been strong and overpowered in certain situations, but a smart marine squad would allways spread out to prevent getting stunlocked all together. But that wouldn't work so well in the crowded small maps of NS2...
Devour might have been strong and annoying, but it added the gameplay mechanic of "rescuing your marine buddy, or at least his equipment" which lead to quite a few entertaining situations and adds alot of risk-reward choices for both teams.
NS1 worked because of these things, i don't think NS2 should be seen as a way to "Change things that allways annoyed somebody about NS1". Because to other people many of these things had been what made NS1 so great and unique in the first place. Don't try fixing something that ain't broken, many NS1 mechanics are place because they somply work (but it looks like many people don't even understand WHY they work...), throwing these lessons away would be kinda stupid.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like that. Even though the movement (and aiming) in NS2 still feels a little bit jerky/squishy sometimes, this "feeling" for the player-avatar's body is something I really miss in a lot of games. Mirror's Edge did a great job with handling this.
(Btw. I think the collision models for the different characters in NS2 should not be simple plain tubes, as they are now, I guess? - There was a video somewhere. These tube-collisionmodels a lot of times result in things like getting stuck, not being able to move past certain things, etc.)
Well, Stomp didn't really bother me in NS1 either. Probably because Stomp was a pure support ability, usually executed from range. If your squad was spread out (which it should have been) then some members continued firing at the onos or other incoming attackers. It was very risky for the onos to engage a group of marines, so you had a chance to make it out alive. I also hate when attacks affect my view - the NS1 stomp was tolerable in that regard.
Gore in NS2 on the other hand is a high damage attack. Once you've been hit it is usually over, the onos is already close and you can't do anything to stop it. When I think of stuns in RTS games they usually deal very low damage or sometimes none at all. I think that is a good design approach - clearly separating high damage from support abilities.
This is not applicable in the slightest. You are assuming every alien will go onos together, then attack together and eat the humans at the same time. This will never happen because it just isn't feasible. Also, at this point in the game it would be moot anyway, the humans would have to be at a point where they have already lost. Point being Devour is fine for NS2
not only that, but to do it over and over.
Because you never get (almost) whole teams of lerks or whole teams of fades, right?
Aliens don't even have to all go oni together, because with devour he will have such high survivability as a hit-and-run unit, he can just wait until the rest of the team gets oni, and he won't even have to wait long.
The point is, entire teams evolving into oni is going to be a far more likely occurrence in NS2 than it would have been in NS1 (because in NS1, you <i>essentially</i> spent resources out of a team pool, so you going onos was a <b>team expense</b> - which is precisely why if you died right away as an onos, the whole team would be incredibly ###### with you), and devour would not be compatible with this possibility.
There should be no easy one-hit kills in NS2.
Devour is a skill-less weapon anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1900892:date=Feb 8 2012, 02:31 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 8 2012, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->not only that, but to do it over and over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly.
As for one-hit kills, I would much prefer devour over gore, it's much more original and emblematic of ns ("the game where you can be eaten alive"). Just shorten the digestion time for the marine.
In such a game you need to put players into their place, if players have the impression they can "beat anything themself" or "they could have done differently" you will just motivate people to rambo. After all when a players dies to something and thinks "hey i know how i could beat that!" he will just respawn and rambo there again to try his new approach.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think so. Team play will always win over solo players ramboing even in a game where the player has the possibility to beat anything. Try playing counter strike with some random pub players against any organised team and you won't get very far. You don't need to force players to work together, as working together will always be beneficial for your team. I think forcing players to require their team mates co-operation in order for them to do things will just lead to frustration.
L4D is actually not a very well designed game. It's fun to play causally with your friends but not much more than that. The competitive scene had to make many modifications as it was too easy at first and good teams would survive every round. It is also famous for having the most rage quits out of any game that I've played. Even organized teams would all quit after 1 mistake and almost no public game finishes with the same people who started playing. If anything it is direct evidence that those mechanics lead to frustrating gameplay for many players.
L4Ds infected side was also pretty boring to play (after the novelty wore off) as you had to rely on your team in order to have any kind of success. The individual classes are basically useless if they attack alone and there is no skill involved in their attacks. It basically all centres around teamwork and timing your attacks together. While teamwork is fun, I don't think it alone is enough to make a game enjoyable. For me the most enjoyable games are ones in which I can distinguish myself as a player as well as co-operate with team mates. A game like counter strike is the perfect example of this. There are no mechanics that directly force the players to work together and yet it still involves lots of team work.
IMO any time you feel like there was nothing you could or that the game was limiting you then that just leads to frustration, pure and simple. That doesn't mean a player would be able to just run off and kill the entire enemy team any more than they could in counter strike or most other team fps games. Things like defending RTs and attacking tech points already herd the players together - you don't need to force them by limiting their abilities.
Also, i say here again that the 1st view model of onos needs fixing, it is not bounded to an "onos" i can see gaps through it, making it separated of a body and floating.