2 Things not brought into NS2 im Furious!
OpolE
Join Date: 2008-04-10 Member: 64057Members
Join Date: 2008-04-10 Member: 64057Members
Lerk Bite
Skulk Jump and leap
WHY?
I didn't want to pay for a game that de-advances aspects of NS1.
Im seriously annoyed that I cant jump over an up and coming barrier and leap straight down the corridor. Now ive got to bloody look up and leap over and maybee attach to the ceiling. That is bull######
Skulk Jump and leap
WHY?
I didn't want to pay for a game that de-advances aspects of NS1.
Im seriously annoyed that I cant jump over an up and coming barrier and leap straight down the corridor. Now ive got to bloody look up and leap over and maybee attach to the ceiling. That is bull######
Comments
In terms of the Jump and Leap, I have no idea.
Shotgun-spike: Ranged "bite"+not very good damage (compared to biting)
Bite: Melee + better damage than shotgun-spike
Profit!
:P
Use Slot 1,
primary - minigun spikes
secondary - bite
(or the other way around)
Also it'd be fun and neat to have bite and spikes at the same time (like in NS 1.0; or 3.0+ if people used the lerk bite + spike plugin).
Fun I say guys!
Fun!
Shotgun-spike: Ranged "bite"+not very good damage (compared to biting)
Bite: Melee + better damage than shotgun-spike
Profit!
:P
Use Slot 1,
primary - minigun spikes
secondary - bite
(or the other way around)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, shotgun spikes are very powerful, even at medium range.
2 shotgun spikes to kill armor 0 marine.
3 shotgun spikes to kill armor 1-3 marine.
This, basically, except it wouldn't go from 'effective' to 'complete miss' with no in between ground.
There would be an actual skill curve rather than a vertical line and plateu.
+1
Relevant:
<!--quoteo(post=1897413:date=Jan 26 2012, 02:06 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 26 2012, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Theoretically, that trade-off stuff is possible. In reality, it doesn't work anything like that.
- When a lerk tracks a marine with spikes at range or in proximity, they cannot easily move sideways or backwards, and tracking becomes much more hopeless the more erratic your motions, so they must fly predictably. Unpredictable movement and effective targeting are mutually exclusive.
- When a lerk 'tracks' a marine with spores, they must fly predictably (i.e. straight at the marine). Unpredictable movement and effective targeting are mutually exclusive.
- When a lerk simply flies around to be unpredictable - because they cannot easily move sideways or backwards, but only forwards with turns - they are utterly unable to track targets at the same time. Unpredictable movement and effective targeting are mutually exclusive, and/or the lag time between the two is prohibitive. Between the lerk switching from effective targeting to unpredictable movement or vice versa, there is a time period, a window of opportunity for the marine to attack with impunity.
Meanwhile:
- Marines can strafe and walk back and forth, while tracking and attacking you at the same time, even at long ranges. They have (some) unpredictable movement and effective targeting at the same time, and/or the lag time between the two is minimal.
For comparison:
- Skulks and marines can strafe and walk back and forth, while tracking one another - but in proximity, tracking becomes more difficult for both skulks and marines because of the limited FOV. Both sides have (some) unpredictable movement and effective targeting at the same time, and/or the lag time between the two is minimal.
It seems to me that the lerk could greatly benefit from the ability to do 'strafing runs' and/or stay in close proximity with the target while attacking (thereby making it difficult to track with the low FOVs). Heavier-than-air spores that retain the lerk's velocity would help with the former. Bite, or a large-spread / high-damage-dropoff-with-range shotgun spike attack would assist with the latter (the key features of both are that they are very short distance, and very high <b>instant</b> damage per attack). The long-range spike, however... it's hard to see it being used effectively unless the lerk is hovering or stationary (which could be viable if marines are otherwise occupied with other aliens).
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->So, what I would suggest:
Slot 1, Mouse1: High total instant damage, large-spread (essentially, short-range) shotgun spikes.
Slot 2, Mouse1: High rate-of-fire medium-ranged spikes.
All Slots, Mouse2: Heavier-than-air spores that retain the lerk's velocity.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually like the shotgun spikes better than bite.
Not sure what you mean about Skulk but he does have leap at 2 hives. There may a problem with jump or a difference with how it worked in NS1 but I don't follow what you're saying.
Not sure what you mean about Skulk but he does have leap at 2 hives. There may a problem with jump or a difference with how it worked in NS1 but I don't follow what you're saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS1 you could jump and mid jump leap in NS2 the skulk has to be touch the ground to leap you can't leap in mid air...
It make the leap in NS2 feel very restricted...
I really hope this doesn't happen, at least not as long as spikes remain a close/mid range weapon. They would both serve the same function, so all it would really accomplish would be to make Lerks more like Skulks. I would much much rather be able to drop spores with alt-spike.
I really hope this will happen, that would give the primary and secondary (Slot 1) attacks different roles - which I feel they don't really have right now (shotgun-spike invading on machine gun-spike's role)
I would much rather have two different attacks that perform different roles, and excel at them
..than having to choose which of two abilities to use to fulfill the same role - making one or the other not get as much usage.
Fan of this, the lack of a physical attack makes me feel a bit disconnected from a battlefield.
I'm sure there could be some fun mixtures of spiking and chomping. Like the classic "two bites and a 'site" for a skulk to kill a level 0 marine.
Happy happy joy joy!
I'm not a fan of this idea, partially because I don't like that you've thrown the "no alternate attacks" design philosophy from NS1 out the window and partially because I think a short range spike alternative that actually works properly is a better way to fix one of the problems with the current NS2 lerk. The NS1 bite was great for high skill play, but an absolute nightmare for most public players. Instead of having one weapon for the noobs (rapidfire) and one weapon for the pros (bite), it would be better to have just one weapon that scales well for both segments. Properly worked out shotgun spikes or burst-fire spikes should be up for that task.
Several good suggestions and discussion, including fleshed out ideas for a good primary weapon for the lerk, on the third page of this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115937&st=40" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...15937&st=40</a>
If you mean shoot spore clouds, I wholeheartly agree.
I get the feeling aliens lack a proper, mobile area denial weapon at the moment.
Agreed. Personally, I never liked the addition of bite to the Lerk in NS1. The Lerk is a support class that can more easily counter jet-packers. Adding bite changes the Lerk's role quite a bit.
Like by.. flying/catching up to a JP and bite?
<!--quoteo(post=1897661:date=Jan 27 2012, 10:48 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jan 27 2012, 10:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Adding bite changes the Lerk's role quite a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How? The shotgun-spike is basically a 50/50 of bite and spikes, rather have 1 (minigun) spike attack and 1 bite attack, than 1 (minigun) spike attack and a half-spike/half-bite attack.
Why?
I mean, aside from giving them an even better anti-structure attack, I can't see it fitting with the lerk playstyle at all, if you have to crash into marines and bite them to death, that kind of makes them exactly like a flying skulk.
The shotgun spikes make more sense, they encourage you to get CLOSE but not actually hit the marine.
I mean, aside from giving them an even better anti-structure attack, I can't see it fitting with the lerk playstyle at all, if you have to crash into marines and bite them to death, that kind of makes them exactly like a flying skulk.
The shotgun spikes make more sense, they encourage you to get CLOSE but not actually hit the marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT
all the changes you been seeing done to the lerk (bad attempt) was to make the lerk more close combat fighter. (was charlie words)
For example changes to his spores, short range spikes etc
so why would someone want to hate lerk bite? It worked for years, we all know that (at least those who played ns1) its pretty clear charlie trying new things and realizing the ideas don't work.
here some basic idea;
slot 1
primary attack: bite
secondary attack: spores (not the current model)
slot 2
primary attack: spikes (short range)
secondary attack: umbra (thats right, lerk needs umbra and maybe one of these games it can actually be used in combat. ability must be given to mobile player so it can be given to everyone on the map without the current limits of umbra)
OR remove spikes, and replace slot 2 with umbra. Umbra will be given to the lerk after second hive is built. (hive ability unlocked)
edit
as for leap. its still not fixed, after how many builds is this?
I try to bring it up some time, but it goes ignored because the current leap model must be better...
bring back ns1 leap, the current mini-leap is really weak with predicable movement.
in fact i'm going to argue that from a strategic standpoint, not giving the aliens any ranged units will make the game impossible (literally impossible) to balance.
If you've ever gone against a really good lerk in NS1 I shouldn't really need to explain it.
What an insightful argument, thank you.
Could always just speed the Lerk up and remove the "hide"/tweak tankiness, I'd prefer having a fast and agile Lerk, but a bit squishier, than a slow moving and heavy "tanking" Lerk, just how I feel anyway..