Perspective from someone that played the first alpha, then the first beta, then left...
Andrew_e1
Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33331Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33331Members, Constellation
Hello,
So back when the alpha came out I opened it and after 5 mins of TRYING to play it I closed it. A while later the "BETA" came out and after again.."trying" to play it, I closed it and pretty much decided I would ignore NS2 till much more progress had been made. To be honest, I sort of lost hope and thought NS2 would never reach the immersion and polished feel of NS1.
So a few days ago I'm scrolling through my steam list and decided to install NS2 just out of curiosity, I had REALLY low expectations.
This time I was able to actually join and MOVE inside a game, and I started playing on marines and I think I spent like 10 mins just looking around and seeing how
stuff worked. The game was already advanced so there were a lot of unlocks and structures built. Around 20 mins in, it hit me... NS2 will be something really really big, that is...depending on how polished the final product will be.
As of now the game looks <b>gorge</b>ous (see what I did there) and I started imagining how big 15-15 battles would pan out, and I got REALLY excited again.
The guys at unknownworlds are making some amazing work, and I'd like to thank them for their hard efforts. Can you please work faster though? I'll send a pizza every now and then if it helps...
On the other hand, there's 1 thing that has been bothering me since the engine test came out, and that is the "mouse feel" of the game. I can't put my hand on it but moving my crosshair around in NS2 feels really different from every other FPS out there. Even though I'm getting 40-50 frames per second, something just feels wrong... I feel like the movement is not smooth enough? like if you move your crosshair reaaaally slowly, it moves in "steps" instead of a smooth movement. Not really sure but I hope someone can back me up on this.
<b>Edit:</b> Made a video <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeZPDD32gQc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeZPDD32gQc</a>
So that's it and I look forward to seeing more progress on NS2 and I really hope this is the year it gets released.
One last thing, I love the look of the phase gates but I was wondering if there's a possibility of making the phase gates more of a "portal"? So you could get near it and see the location it teleports you to... also it would make a smoother transition? as of now its a little annoying to move through phase gates since theres a bit of lag. It's just a thought tho.
Cheers!
So back when the alpha came out I opened it and after 5 mins of TRYING to play it I closed it. A while later the "BETA" came out and after again.."trying" to play it, I closed it and pretty much decided I would ignore NS2 till much more progress had been made. To be honest, I sort of lost hope and thought NS2 would never reach the immersion and polished feel of NS1.
So a few days ago I'm scrolling through my steam list and decided to install NS2 just out of curiosity, I had REALLY low expectations.
This time I was able to actually join and MOVE inside a game, and I started playing on marines and I think I spent like 10 mins just looking around and seeing how
stuff worked. The game was already advanced so there were a lot of unlocks and structures built. Around 20 mins in, it hit me... NS2 will be something really really big, that is...depending on how polished the final product will be.
As of now the game looks <b>gorge</b>ous (see what I did there) and I started imagining how big 15-15 battles would pan out, and I got REALLY excited again.
The guys at unknownworlds are making some amazing work, and I'd like to thank them for their hard efforts. Can you please work faster though? I'll send a pizza every now and then if it helps...
On the other hand, there's 1 thing that has been bothering me since the engine test came out, and that is the "mouse feel" of the game. I can't put my hand on it but moving my crosshair around in NS2 feels really different from every other FPS out there. Even though I'm getting 40-50 frames per second, something just feels wrong... I feel like the movement is not smooth enough? like if you move your crosshair reaaaally slowly, it moves in "steps" instead of a smooth movement. Not really sure but I hope someone can back me up on this.
<b>Edit:</b> Made a video <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeZPDD32gQc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeZPDD32gQc</a>
So that's it and I look forward to seeing more progress on NS2 and I really hope this is the year it gets released.
One last thing, I love the look of the phase gates but I was wondering if there's a possibility of making the phase gates more of a "portal"? So you could get near it and see the location it teleports you to... also it would make a smoother transition? as of now its a little annoying to move through phase gates since theres a bit of lag. It's just a thought tho.
Cheers!
Comments
I think the mouse feels just fine and I am very sensitive to stuff like that.
I experience the exact same thing, just with NS2 aswell, and I can't really figure out why. It sort of feels like the turning/aiming is a little awkward + like you're using a really old mouse with a mouse-wheel.. the cross-hair moving in "steps" rather than smooth.
Thats what I started doing for another game, and when I applied it here it did help.
Thanks for the feedback.
We eventually do want to have phase gates use portal tech. It is one of the reasons why they were designed as doorways rather then platforms like in NS1. However, with the amount of high priority items left to do on the game, that will need to wait until after we release 1.0
--Cory
Thanks for your reply!
Didn't notice a difference. I made a video to demonstrate the changes and what I meant on the "step" feel...
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeZPDD32gQc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeZPDD32gQc</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1896199:date=Jan 20 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jan 20 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for the feedback.
We eventually do want to have phase gates use portal tech. It is one of the reasons why they were designed as doorways rather then platforms like in NS1. However, with the amount of high priority items left to do on the game, that will need to wait until after we release 1.0
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome!
I just heard Max and Dushan talking about mouse acceleration, dpi and running some tests, so I think your video has helped. We're on it.
But maybe a mouse acceleration ingame settings wont hurt, as long as you can turn it of :)
I suggest Andrew should make a movie doing the same but just on the desktop (not ingame) just to have a comparison maybe? (also tell us mouse, driver settings, and mouse windows settings)
I just heard Max and Dushan talking about mouse acceleration, dpi and running some tests, so I think your video has helped. We're on it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No problem, if you guys need anything else just ask!
<!--quoteo(post=1896233:date=Jan 20 2012, 02:54 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jan 20 2012, 02:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896233"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isnt this movement more dependent on the mouse, surface and mousesettings he is using... I dont have this problem with my mouse.(tho the steelseries xai has a little ("hidden") mouse acceleration even tho its off in all settings/driver... some mice might not have this => a bit bigger steps/not as fluid movement)
But maybe a mouse acceleration ingame settings wont hurt, as long as you can turn it of :)
I suggest Andrew should make a movie doing the same but just on the desktop (not ingame) just to have a comparison maybe? (also tell us mouse, driver settings, and mouse windows settings)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been using my MX518 for the past 7 years, without logitech software installed... I switch between 800 and 1600DPI, 800 generally being the "sweet spot". You can see the NS1 video at the end with the same mouse DPI settings and you can see its much smoother!
The NS1 and NS2 videos are both recorded at 800 DPI?
Yes, I recorded the NS1 video right after the NS2 one. I should note though, I opened them again and tried with different DPI settings and in NS2 the "steps" are still that big when moving slowly. I tried 400,800 and 1600.
I'm only on my second MX518 in fact, however I've never had trouble using the buttons dedicated to DPIs to switch between modes. A friend just came over and he brought his G700 which has got like 5 different DPI settings, I tried it again and the issue is still there.
Maybe the others that have said they experienced the same thing could tell us what kind of mouse they are using?
is that feature in ns2? and is the 'step' thing what you would notice if you turned it off in other games?
btw i notice the same issue as well but I just thought my mouse was crap lol
hm now that i think about it... tf2 does seems a bit smoother than this game
I'm really surprised more people hadn't noticed this yet... I got a friend to play NS2 today (same boat as me, got tired of alpha and decided to wait) and he liked it but thought there was something weird with the feel of the game.... I pointed him to my thread and he said that was it!
Good thing its been awknowledged now though! :)
While the mouselag in 189 made it so bad for me I couldn't play the game, before that patch, and since 190, to me the mouse movement is SPOT-ON, as good as the old halflife feel, and waaaay better than 90% of the games out there.
So I'm sure that people used to other games would like to see some kind of smoothing in the game, but PLEASE make it optional.
In fact, smoothing counters the "granularity" that is apparently plaguing the current mouse input in NS2, and these discrete "steps" are exactly the opposite of what you would call precise, and therefore the exact opposite of what you want.
Here's an extreme example:
Let's say that if you move the mouse 2cm to the right, you rotate clockwise 45 degrees.
So if you move 0.2cm to the right, you rotate clockwise 4.5 degrees; let's say that this is the "finest granule" of mouse movement.
Now what if you moved it 0.12cm to the right, you would want it to rotate 2.7 degrees, right? But if the mouse movement is granular (discrete) you would rotate either 0 degrees or 4.5 degrees. If it were smoothed, you would rotate 2.7 degrees: because perhaps either the granularity is smaller (finer), or the game has interpolated.
(Disclaimer: the above example is based on common sense and my reasoning, not an actual understanding of game engines and computer hardware.)
Smoothing = more precision, not less.
Mouse acceleration is different: The amount of "output" (e.g. number of pixels the cursor moves) you get is not based on your raw "input" (how far you move the mouse) alone, but also the speed of the input (the time or duration). Move 1cm in 1 second = x pixels. Move 1cm in 0.1 seconds = y pixels. y > x.
Depends, most implementations of either include at least parts of the other. The example I gave is acceleration yes. But in general, smoothing is done by decelerating movement and then accelerating it again, making smoothing less precise in absolute terms, though it is often easier to make small adjustments. It's impossible to smooth anything out without using prediction (acceleration if next input doesn't match up to prediction), or deceleration (waiting to see if next input is also movement and then acting on it).
But even if I am completely talking out of my - uh - neck, I really really don't want ns2 to degrade its input by copying most AAA title's smoothing (which is probably influenced by console input), though I understand that people used to those games prefer it, as it feels smoother.
So I am fully agreed that it's probably good for most people to have the smoothing and acceleration that is the current norm, but I very strongly request that the raw input of the current game remain in the game as an option, even if it requires console commands or a menu item.
<!--quoteo(post=1896352:date=Jan 21 2012, 11:45 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 21 2012, 11:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact, smoothing counters the "granularity" that is apparently plaguing the current mouse input in NS2, and these discrete "steps" are exactly the opposite of what you would call precise, and therefore the exact opposite of what you want.
Here's an extreme example:
Let's say that if you move the mouse 2cm to the right, you rotate clockwise 45 degrees.
So if you move 0.2cm to the right, you rotate clockwise 4.5 degrees; let's say that this is the "finest granule" of mouse movement.
Now what if you moved it 0.12cm to the right, you would want it to rotate 2.7 degrees, right? But if the mouse movement is granular (discrete) you would rotate either 0 degrees or 4.5 degrees. If it were smoothed, you would rotate 2.7 degrees: because perhaps either the granularity is smaller (finer), or the game has interpolated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A smoothing algorythm can not be more precise than the minimum input it gets, and as the game seems to be running by default on raw input, this seems to mean that the only thing smoothing can do is to make more movement into smaller steps (turning smoothing into acceleration). (the game wouldn't know you had moved your 0.12 cm because the operation system or the mouse would have either said 0 or 0.2cm, that's what raw input is as I use it in my interaction designs)
But Like I said in the previous post, even if you are completely right, I simply want the <b>option</b> to be able to use the<b> current input model</b>, because for me it's the <b>absolute best</b> I've played since halflife 1 (source engine is ok, but imho worse than hl1).
The ballmouse obviously has issues with smoothness, but I am 90% sure I can CONFIRM this is not a just a issue with infa-red/led/digital mice.
I was watching some old NS1 clan match vids today as well, and the movement seems a lot sharper also. Which made me think:
<b>On another note:</b>
I think the big thing about the HL engine, is that a lot of mods were all about tactical gameplay using sound (cs/dod/ns) and this is not the case in NS2.
I feel that this is something that is missing, and may be in part an issue because of hard to hear sounds/too much clutter.
Also, I think marines should always be running - and walk to stay quiet.
This is really missing from games in the early 2000s, where now, game designers tend to have too many sounds playing at once. In my opinion.
This is coming from someone who used to play against clans in CS at a fairly level/ UK Lan, and grew up around HL mods.
Summarize:
High in-game sensitivity: large steps
Low in-game sensitivity: small steps
Really need adjustable dpi to make such low sensitivity usable though. I had to use 3200 to get decent turning speed. And even that was slightly to low for my taste.
I <i>think</i> what the game does now is multiply the sensitivity with the mouse movement to make it faster. This means that the minimum of one movement registred by the mouse (1 pixel) turns into, whatever amount the game has for sensitivity, for example the minimum step turns into 10 pixels. As said, however you smooth the mouse movement, you can never have more accuracy then the mouse. Obviously the mouse register movement before it signals that it has moved enough to adjust the position, and for the game to feel "smooth" while allowing separate adjustment of sensitivity apart from the mouse, you would need to be able to access this and turn (in the example above) 1/10 of a pixel movement into 1 pixel moved.
<i>I guess this also means that I'll have to play with my G9 again that turns of itself on random points, before I get around to get a new mouse... Oh well.</i>
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->// allow mouse smoothing
if ( m_filter->integer ) {
mx = ( cl.mouseDx[0] + cl.mouseDx[1] ) * 0.5;
my = ( cl.mouseDy[0] + cl.mouseDy[1] ) * 0.5;
} else {
mx = cl.mouseDx[cl.mouseIndex];
my = cl.mouseDy[cl.mouseIndex];
}
cl.mouseIndex ^= 1;
cl.mouseDx[cl.mouseIndex] = 0;
cl.mouseDy[cl.mouseIndex] = 0;<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Basically spreading one mouse-move over two frames. So instead of you mouse going 0 0 1 0 0, it goes 0 0 0.5 0.5 0.