<!--quoteo(post=1896382:date=Jan 21 2012, 02:41 PM:name=maesse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maesse @ Jan 21 2012, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically spreading one mouse-move over two frames. So instead of you mouse going 0 0 1 0 0, it goes 0 0 0.5 0.5 0.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what happens if you go 0 0 1 1 0 0 then? How does it smooth that out?
I can see three outcomes;
Remember the remaining and split the new total in the next 2 frames: 0 0 0.5 0.75 0.75 0 Just split the new movement and add it after the previous: 0 0 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 Ignore the leftover movement and just split the new input over two frames: 0 0 0.5 0.5 0.5 0
I see disadvantages with all three. In the first, even though you move the mouse at constant speed, it will move faster and faster 1 1 1 1 1 become 0.5 0.75 0.875 0.9375 0.96875 0.96875, giving the same total movement at one frame longer with accelerating speed. In the second, you will do half the movement for twice as long. Same total movement In the third, you do less movement in one frame longer. If you have uneven speeds, such as 0 1 0 3 0 1 0 2 you will do the same movement but smoother. If any of the movement follow eachother, the mouse register constant movement, then your speed will be just over halved. I don't think this they implemented it this way, but I can't judge from the code.
0 0 1 1 0 0 would become 0 0 0.5 1 0.5 0 (total movement = 2)
I guess you can look at it as taking the value in-between each input sample. Or if you imagine plotting the inputs on a graph where the x axis is time/frames and y axis is the mouse input value from that frame - you're moving the x axis back ½ frame.
what I hate about those mouse smoothing functions is that when u do an extreme movement, it takes several frames for the movement to finish, making micro adjustments elastic and generally giving input lag.
though that quoted piece of code is not the complete code, which means the smoothing is hard to actually see in that example (the if statements seems to mean that smoothing is only done occasionally, yet the mouseindex is toggled every time, weird piece of code).
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
important to note, however, that Quake 3 was really the last true example of proper mouse input for PC games. its to this day heralded as the standard. wouldn't mind seeing that code implemented for testing purposes in ns2?
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1896422:date=Jan 21 2012, 06:46 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jan 21 2012, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->important to note, however, that Quake 3 was really the last true example of proper mouse input for PC games. its to this day heralded as the standard. wouldn't mind seeing that code implemented for testing purposes in ns2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I actually cannot play any Quake based games at all due to the mouse input. I don't know exactly why that is, but I seem to have huge mouse acceleration in those games. I have no issues in NS2, although the steps seem to be a little bit over 1 pixel (like 1.5 pixel).
<!--quoteo(post=1896214:date=Jan 20 2012, 02:51 PM:name=Andrew_e1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andrew_e1 @ Jan 20 2012, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Didn't notice a difference. I made a video to demonstrate the changes and what I meant on the "step" feel...
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeZPDD32gQc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeZPDD32gQc</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is exactly how I experience it aswell, thank you for making a video of it, and great that it's being looked into :)
I too recently have come back to playing NS2 after a long break. It is definitely much more of a game than a tech demo at this point. I have high hopes for this, I hope the word can spread about it rapidly. Also the mouse problem is something I first noticed while playing as well. I even had a discussion with it with a few of my friends to see if it was just me but they all agreed it just sort of felt off a bit. Jitteryness is what we called it. I have since got used to it but I would like to see the aiming akin to other shooters to make the feel of the game the best first impression to new people. Keep up the good work guys, been following UWE since NS1 first launched beta :D
<!--quoteo(post=1896470:date=Jan 21 2012, 05:31 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jan 21 2012, 05:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe he forgot his old forum account like me, and instead of 2003 i now have 2009. (forum account number or date says nothing... :))<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know I know...just messing around.
<!--quoteo(post=1896471:date=Jan 21 2012, 05:42 PM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Jan 21 2012, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really enjoyed reading your post Andrew :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you!
Care to share your opinion regarding the mouselook? As someone who records gameplay regularly you must have noticed "something"...
Just wanted to take the opportunity and give a little guide how you get the best precision out of your mouse:
<b>Step 1:</b> Windows settings (System Control => Hardware => Mouse)
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12784365/mouse.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> (Sorry for the german picture)
- Speed-setting in the middle = step 6 of 11 - Deactivate acceleration.
<b>Step 2:</b> <!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro-->(if you can change your mouse dpi etc)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Setup the DPI to your liking, but stick to round numbers... 400, 800, 1600 (depends on the mouse sensor, google can help - usually this super high dpi(again depends on sensor) and numbers inbetween like 924dpi should be avoided for the best precision - because of software interpolation)
<b>Step 3:</b> Go ingame (gamesettings or use the config file) and finetune there.
Dont know if its really the best(most correct) way, but thats how i "learned" (or at least how i do) it :P
ye, but that's just the windows mouse acceleration, it's very very bad if you have both combined, but afaik with raw input ns2 ignores the windows mouse acceleration anyway (though not sure)
<!--quoteo(post=1896254:date=Jan 20 2012, 04:06 PM:name=andrewe1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (andrewe1 @ Jan 20 2012, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm only on my second MX518 in fact, however I've never had trouble using the buttons dedicated to DPIs to switch between modes. A friend just came over and he brought his G700 which has got like 5 different DPI settings, I tried it again and the issue is still there.
Maybe the others that have said they experienced the same thing could tell us what kind of mouse they are using?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im using a G700. I had that same jerkyness initially. I cranked my mouse DPI all the way 5700, and lowered the in game mouse sensitivity all the way down. Then I raised the mouse sensitivity 1 increment at a time (got my face two inches from the screen to make sure) until I was able to easily perform a 180 with a quick hand motion. Mouse is farily smooth...nowhere near the jerkyness in your video
<!--quoteo(post=1896518:date=Jan 21 2012, 10:24 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Jan 21 2012, 10:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896518"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im using a G700. I had that same jerkyness initially. I cranked my mouse DPI all the way 5700, and lowered the in game mouse sensitivity all the way down. Then I raised the mouse sensitivity 1 increment at a time (got my face two inches from the screen to make sure) until I was able to easily perform a 180 with a quick hand motion. Mouse is farily smooth...nowhere near the jerkyness in your video<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was looking for a solution that didn't involve buying a 100 USD mouse and tweaking the crap out of both, the game and the mouse....
I can imagine there are workarounds for this but lets just see if the unknown worlds team come up with something a little more hassle free.
Also, 5700 DPI is insane, its one of those things they put in and said "its just because we can". 99% of mice out there don't have that resolution...and 99.9% of gamers out there don't use it in real world scenarios.
<!--quoteo(post=1896537:date=Jan 22 2012, 04:33 AM:name=Andrew_e1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andrew_e1 @ Jan 22 2012, 04:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was looking for a solution that didn't involve buying a 100 USD mouse and tweaking the crap out of both, the game and the mouse....
I can imagine there are workarounds for this but lets just see if the unknown worlds team come up with something a little more hassle free.
Also, 5700 DPI is insane, its one of those things they put in and said "its just because we can". 99% of mice out there don't have that resolution...and 99.9% of gamers out there don't use it in real world scenarios.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't figure out a way to smooth the mouse and not get mouse acceleration or delay with quick motions. On the other hand, I always turn of mouse smoothing and acceleration. I even have a file somewhere on how to permanently remove mouse acceleration in the registry...
Found it, use at your own risk (and make sure the originals are the same, so you can reverse if something breaks). <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Mouse Acceleration Fix Permanent Acceleration Fix
It seems that even without pointer precision disabled, the mouse under XP is still influenced by an acceleration curve. This is especially noticeable in games. To completely remove mouse acceleration from XP, you will need to go into the registry and adjust the SmoothmouseXYCurve values. Here is how its done.
1. Click Start button 2. Select Run 3. Type 'regedit' in the open textbox 4. Open the tree 'HKEY_CURRENT_USER', select control panel, then select mouse 5. Right clicking, modify the SmoothMouseXCurve and SmoothMouseYCurve hexidecimal values to the following:
If done correctly, you will notice you are holding a markedly more responsive mouse.<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
When I have verified that it's my G9 that is broken and not (really hope not..) my chassis contacts and motherboard, I plant to get a Razer Imperator. That should solve any issue with steps here with 6400 DPI :) <a href="http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.231103900/categoryId.35208800" target="_blank">http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/...goryId.35208800</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1896537:date=Jan 21 2012, 09:33 PM:name=Andrew_e1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andrew_e1 @ Jan 21 2012, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was looking for a solution that didn't involve buying a 100 USD mouse and tweaking the crap out of both, the game and the mouse....
I can imagine there are workarounds for this but lets just see if the unknown worlds team come up with something a little more hassle free.
Also, 5700 DPI is insane, its one of those things they put in and said "its just because we can". 99% of mice out there don't have that resolution...and 99.9% of gamers out there don't use it in real world scenarios.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I got on sale for 65usd at newegg :)
Also im sure doing the same will work with lower DPI settings just not as smooth maybe. If anything it will be less jerky for the time being until devs find a proper solution.
I completely agree about the mouse movement. It's extremely annoying to deal with. I feel like there's some input lag, it's very floaty movement.
Compare it to a Valve game and there's a world of difference. It feels perfect, there's no mouse acceleration, mouse smoothing, deadzone, negative mouse accel, or anything else that ruins the movement. It's raw mouse input, there's nothing getting in the way of the mouse and the game.
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but besides the jerky mouse-movement, the X\Y-axis sensitivity seems incredibly off. Now it may be that they are identical, but horizontal movement goes a lot faster\easier than vertical movement does. This in practice is a pain to deal with, with the very lateral movement of skulks\lerks\fades.
I guess a feature-request for independent configuration of X- and Y-axis sensitivity is in order.
Comments
So what happens if you go 0 0 1 1 0 0 then? How does it smooth that out?
I can see three outcomes;
Remember the remaining and split the new total in the next 2 frames:
0 0 0.5 0.75 0.75 0
Just split the new movement and add it after the previous:
0 0 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5
Ignore the leftover movement and just split the new input over two frames:
0 0 0.5 0.5 0.5 0
I see disadvantages with all three.
In the first, even though you move the mouse at constant speed, it will move faster and faster
1 1 1 1 1 become 0.5 0.75 0.875 0.9375 0.96875 0.96875, giving the same total movement at one frame longer with accelerating speed.
In the second, you will do half the movement for twice as long. Same total movement
In the third, you do less movement in one frame longer. If you have uneven speeds, such as 0 1 0 3 0 1 0 2 you will do the same movement but smoother. If any of the movement follow eachother, the mouse register constant movement, then your speed will be just over halved. I don't think this they implemented it this way, but I can't judge from the code.
I guess you can look at it as taking the value in-between each input sample. Or if you imagine plotting the inputs on a graph where the x axis is time/frames and y axis is the mouse input value from that frame - you're moving the x axis back ½ frame.
though that quoted piece of code is not the complete code, which means the smoothing is hard to actually see in that example (the if statements seems to mean that smoothing is only done occasionally, yet the mouseindex is toggled every time, weird piece of code).
I believe Valve modified the Quake1 engine. But I remember reading that they had access to Q2 code base as well and may have stolen bits.
Q3 was the boss of responsiveness though.
It shut down so cleanly too.
I actually cannot play any Quake based games at all due to the mouse input. I don't know exactly why that is, but I seem to have huge mouse acceleration in those games. I have no issues in NS2, although the steps seem to be a little bit over 1 pixel (like 1.5 pixel).
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeZPDD32gQc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeZPDD32gQc</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly how I experience it aswell, thank you for making a video of it, and great that it's being looked into :)
Took you a long time to join the forums :P Almost 10 years? lol!
I know I know...just messing around.
<!--quoteo(post=1896471:date=Jan 21 2012, 05:42 PM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Jan 21 2012, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really enjoyed reading your post Andrew :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you!
Care to share your opinion regarding the mouselook? As someone who records gameplay regularly you must have noticed "something"...
<b>Step 1:</b>
Windows settings (System Control => Hardware => Mouse)
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12784365/mouse.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
(Sorry for the german picture)
- Speed-setting in the middle = step 6 of 11
- Deactivate acceleration.
<b>Step 2:</b> <!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro-->(if you can change your mouse dpi etc)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Setup the DPI to your liking, but stick to round numbers...
400, 800, 1600 (depends on the mouse sensor, google can help - usually this super high dpi(again depends on sensor) and numbers inbetween like 924dpi should be avoided for the best precision - because of software interpolation)
<b>Step 3:</b>
Go ingame (gamesettings or use the config file) and finetune there.
Dont know if its really the best(most correct) way, but thats how i "learned" (or at least how i do) it :P
Maybe the others that have said they experienced the same thing could tell us what kind of mouse they are using?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im using a G700. I had that same jerkyness initially. I cranked my mouse DPI all the way 5700, and lowered the in game mouse sensitivity all the way down. Then I raised the mouse sensitivity 1 increment at a time (got my face two inches from the screen to make sure) until I was able to easily perform a 180 with a quick hand motion. Mouse is farily smooth...nowhere near the jerkyness in your video
I was looking for a solution that didn't involve buying a 100 USD mouse and tweaking the crap out of both, the game and the mouse....
I can imagine there are workarounds for this but lets just see if the unknown worlds team come up with something a little more hassle free.
Also, 5700 DPI is insane, its one of those things they put in and said "its just because we can". 99% of mice out there don't have that resolution...and 99.9% of gamers out there don't use it in real world scenarios.
I can imagine there are workarounds for this but lets just see if the unknown worlds team come up with something a little more hassle free.
Also, 5700 DPI is insane, its one of those things they put in and said "its just because we can". 99% of mice out there don't have that resolution...and 99.9% of gamers out there don't use it in real world scenarios.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't figure out a way to smooth the mouse and not get mouse acceleration or delay with quick motions. On the other hand, I always turn of mouse smoothing and acceleration. I even have a file somewhere on how to permanently remove mouse acceleration in the registry...
Found it, use at your own risk (and make sure the originals are the same, so you can reverse if something breaks).
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Mouse Acceleration Fix
Permanent Acceleration Fix
It seems that even without pointer precision disabled, the mouse under XP is still influenced by an acceleration curve. This is especially noticeable in games. To completely remove mouse acceleration from XP, you will need to go into the registry and adjust the SmoothmouseXYCurve values. Here is how its done.
1. Click Start button
2. Select Run
3. Type 'regedit' in the open textbox
4. Open the tree 'HKEY_CURRENT_USER', select control panel, then select mouse
5. Right clicking, modify the SmoothMouseXCurve and SmoothMouseYCurve hexidecimal values to the following:
SmoothMouseXCurve: Original SmoothMouseXCurve:
00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00 00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00
00,a0,00,00,00,00,00,00 15,6E,00,00,00,00,00,00
00,40,01,00,00,00,00,00 00,40,01,00,00,00,00,00
00,80,02,00,00,00,00,00 29,dc,03,00,00,00,00,00
00,00,05,00,00,00,00,00 00,00,28,00,00,00,00,00
SmoothMouseYCurve: Original SmoothMouseYCurve:
00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00 00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00
66,a6,02,00,00,00,00,00 b8,5e,01,00,00,00,00,00
cd,4c,05,00,00,00,00,00 cd,4c,05,00,00,00,00,00
a0,99,0a,00,00,00,00,00 cd,4c,18,00,00,00,00,00
38,33,15,00,00,00,00,00 00,00,38,02,00,00,00,00
If done correctly, you will notice you are holding a markedly more responsive mouse.<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
When I have verified that it's my G9 that is broken and not (really hope not..) my chassis contacts and motherboard, I plant to get a Razer Imperator. That should solve any issue with steps here with 6400 DPI :)
<a href="http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.231103900/categoryId.35208800" target="_blank">http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/...goryId.35208800</a>
I can imagine there are workarounds for this but lets just see if the unknown worlds team come up with something a little more hassle free.
Also, 5700 DPI is insane, its one of those things they put in and said "its just because we can". 99% of mice out there don't have that resolution...and 99.9% of gamers out there don't use it in real world scenarios.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I got on sale for 65usd at newegg :)
Also im sure doing the same will work with lower DPI settings just not as smooth maybe. If anything it will be less jerky for the time being until devs find a proper solution.
MX518 is a very good mouse and last I checked it was around 30-40 €
Compare it to a Valve game and there's a world of difference. It feels perfect, there's no mouse acceleration, mouse smoothing, deadzone, negative mouse accel, or anything else that ruins the movement. It's raw mouse input, there's nothing getting in the way of the mouse and the game.
I guess a feature-request for independent configuration of X- and Y-axis sensitivity is in order.