<!--coloro:#FFFFFF--><span style="color:#FFFFFF"><!--/coloro-->The gamplay buffs for the waypoints/pheromones seems like the most interesting option, but probably a nightmare to balance and make sure its not abused. I agree keep them separate. A small pres buff might be all thats needed
A for the cosmic gardener, we need to give the kham(<-this is new since I was last here) more environmental thingys to interact with if they are not going to directly interact with the players.
Cysts are all over he place, so lets make them more interesting. Infestation already gives a passive regen buff. Make this buff (plus 2 others) something the commander has control over via interaction with the cysts that cover the place. Going along with the alien trinity theme, have the kham be able to set the cysts infestation (within its radius) to give 1 of 3 small buffs: a health regen buff (already in), a stam and/or bost buff, or a a sound dampening buff. This mirrors the crag, shift and shade receptively. All 3 buffs can be set from the start of the game, but building the respective tech could boost it. All 3 can stack with each other, but the same buff does not stack. This gives the kham something to tend to by directing how the fights play out within the infestation, and gives more incentive to spread infestation. Heres a scenario that could play out. At the beginning of the game, the kham sets speed cysts in-between font-line rooms to allow aliens to get there faster, and sets sound dampening cysts in the front-line rooms to help skulks out with health regen cysts next defensive points. Later on, the kham starts switching to or adding more speed cysts to help out fades, since with the shift tech he just added also adds an additional small stam regen buff to these cysts. Towards end game, infestation matures as the kham will have stacked all 3 buffs in most key areas, plus some will be tech boosted. Marines will not only need remove cysts to stop infestation but to also deny aliens these advantages in their turf.
Along with passive abilities, cysts should also have active ones. I like the ideas here of giving cysts the ability to release blinding smoke, splash acid to nearby marines, or release an AoE sticky goo speed debuff for marines (instead or in addition to the passive one we have now). All of which could be set to autocast (just one at a time) or manually activated. The kham can get diabolical setting up traps for marines to walk into.
An idea I read here that really like is that drifters are the ones that build cysts, and cysts can also make additional drifters...cutting the delay of bringing in a drifter all the way from the hive to the front lines. Something I'd add to this is that cysts become the prerequisite for all buildings (exception maybe the hive and harvester). So Drifter>Cyst>Building. Now this may seem like an additional pain in the ass, and it could be in the beginning (though khams are not doing much in the beginning anyway) but it could actually speed things up in mid and late game (right when the kham needs to focus on other things). In mid to late game, a kham will have placed cysts all over the place already. If he wants to build a whip, all he has to do is click on a cyst and choose whip..instead of making a drifter and bringing it to where he needs it (hoping it doesn't die along the way). This makes initial cyst placement very important for the kham, because now he has to consider in the future that cyst might have to turn into a crag or shift.
The cosmic gardener concept does capture my imagination and makes me dork out, but its not there yet in game. But its getting there.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
What about having the pharamones as a way of telling the player offbeat is going on in the environment. Instead of having Raines show as heartbeat orbs on the map then show them as a scent. If there is combat around the marine the. His scent would change to red ish smoke which aliens can see through the walls in a sort of l4d style. Then having the commander able to drop pharamones in an area could be hsed as a way of telling the players to stAck up, prepare for an attack or defense, this together with bonuses and perks. The idea of having smoke particle effects trail marines when you use alien sight is awesome IMO. Have I gone too far?
<!--quoteo(post=1896170:date=Jan 21 2012, 01:18 AM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Jan 21 2012, 01:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The gamplay buffs for the waypoints/pheromones seems like the most interesting option, but probably a nightmare to balance and make sure its not abused. I agree keep them separate. A small pres buff might be all thats needed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> All that's needed is the marker alone. Do marines get rewarded with PRes for following orders?
hive generates drifters non stop (up to certain limit) drifters can become cysts or buildings no hive energy
(can add other fun things like drifters spreads infestation as it moves around.. and hence, when it becomes a cyst, there will already be infestation around it instead of a cyst/infestation appearing from no where)
and then, to make it more easier for commanders to control drifters, allow them to set waypoints, etc (ie, select 4 drifters, shift click 4 'cyst' placement points, and they work out the rest themselves)
and while we're here, allow drifters to have other abilities as well so they are similar in usefulness as a mac.
more random thoughts
allow buildings to 'devolve' back into a drifter - giving back tome team-res along the way (Essentially aliens version of recycling)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1896318:date=Jan 20 2012, 10:31 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 20 2012, 10:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896318"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All that's needed is the marker alone. Do marines get rewarded with PRes for following orders?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they really should. it couldnt hurt. in it's current implementation the only time i see really effective commanding from marines is when the comm is constantly on the mic scolding a player who wont follow his strat. with armory in it's current state (comm not being the weapons holder) there should be more incentive to the average pub player, and a way to contribute to being a good team player other than personal kills and being the<u><b> LAST</b></u> one to press E on a structure.
(on that note: devs, could players who assist in building a structure of at least X percentage of completion get some form of res? even a .5 would be nice. currently the one who gets that 5 res is the one who finishes the build first due to the random timing of it, or because he just finished off the last 2% etc.)
The most obvious example being commanders giving marines garbage orders just so they can complete them and get more resources, since that'll let them buy more guns -> team has a bigger chance to win.
I think in general the more bonuses the waypoints have, the less communication value they end up having. Even simple buff waypoints risk getting spammed in fights rather than being any actual instructions, which then again leads to people not involved in the fight ignoring them.
One of the biggest problems the NS1 was that you could rarely tell what exactly the commander had intented and whether you should react to the waypoint. Sometimes they were misclicks, sometimes scouting probes, sometimes waypoints intented for someone else and sometimes old outdated commands. In general I ended up taking in huge amounts of information from the game HUD, but still found myself missing waypoint information even if I wasn't ignoring it on purpose.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1896604:date=Jan 22 2012, 03:37 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 22 2012, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think in general the more bonuses the waypoints have, the less communication value they end up having. Even simple buff waypoints risk getting spammed in fights rather than being any actual instructions, which then again leads to people not involved in the fight ignoring them.
One of the biggest problems the NS1 was that you could rarely tell what exactly the commander had intented and whether you should react to the waypoint. Sometimes they were misclicks, sometimes scouting probes, sometimes waypoints intented for someone else and sometimes old outdated commands. In general I ended up taking in huge amounts of information from the game HUD, but still found myself missing waypoint information even if I wasn't ignoring it on purpose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is even bigger problem in ns2 because of the ridiculous autowaypoint system that gives you waypoints to defend, build and destroy entities in your vicinity. As a player you never know if commander really issued you an order if it was one those garbage orders generated by the game. And as a commander you will never know if your players still have the orders you gave to them or if the game has given them some garbage to do again.
This makes the waypoint to do more harm than they're good for. Thus using waypoints is almost impossible and microphone is the only way to go really. Everytime i use waypoint is have to verify it by using microphone and telling the player that i gave him an order and he should check the his waypoint.
Oh and the waypoint line being a tiny 1 pixel wide line doesn't help either. Nor the fact that you can't see the waypoint destination through the walls or in the minimap. So in fact you have no idea where the waypoint is, only thing you can do is to follow the tiny line.
<!--quoteo(post=1896613:date=Jan 22 2012, 07:56 AM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Jan 22 2012, 07:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh and the waypoint line being a tiny 1 pixel wide line doesn't help either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree, first time I saw it I tought it was some light pouring in through cracks between surfaces.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1896614:date=Jan 22 2012, 03:59 PM:name=subshadow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (subshadow @ Jan 22 2012, 03:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree, first time I saw it I tought it was some light pouring in through cracks between surfaces.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah haha! It looks exactly the same but little bit different color.
Hm... This isn't really a new worry per se, but wanted to bring it up again: Should the khamm be as disconnected from the rest of his team as he is? While you can help organize the team, you don't strictly need them for anything other than killing marines, whereas the marine commander needs the guys on the ground to build everything...
Equally, the aliens don't really need much from the khamm other than a hive.
Certainly they can help each other with RTs and cysts etc, but they <i>feel </i>independent, so they'll act independent.
Comments
A for the cosmic gardener, we need to give the kham(<-this is new since I was last here) more environmental thingys to interact with if they are not going to directly interact with the players.
Cysts are all over he place, so lets make them more interesting. Infestation already gives a passive regen buff. Make this buff (plus 2 others) something the commander has control over via interaction with the cysts that cover the place. Going along with the alien trinity theme, have the kham be able to set the cysts infestation (within its radius) to give 1 of 3 small buffs: a health regen buff (already in), a stam and/or bost buff, or a a sound dampening buff. This mirrors the crag, shift and shade receptively. All 3 buffs can be set from the start of the game, but building the respective tech could boost it. All 3 can stack with each other, but the same buff does not stack. This gives the kham something to tend to by directing how the fights play out within the infestation, and gives more incentive to spread infestation.
Heres a scenario that could play out. At the beginning of the game, the kham sets speed cysts in-between font-line rooms to allow aliens to get there faster, and sets sound dampening cysts in the front-line rooms to help skulks out with health regen cysts next defensive points. Later on, the kham starts switching to or adding more speed cysts to help out fades, since with the shift tech he just added also adds an additional small stam regen buff to these cysts. Towards end game, infestation matures as the kham will have stacked all 3 buffs in most key areas, plus some will be tech boosted. Marines will not only need remove cysts to stop infestation but to also deny aliens these advantages in their turf.
Along with passive abilities, cysts should also have active ones. I like the ideas here of giving cysts the ability to release blinding smoke, splash acid to nearby marines, or release an AoE sticky goo speed debuff for marines (instead or in addition to the passive one we have now). All of which could be set to autocast (just one at a time) or manually activated. The kham can get diabolical setting up traps for marines to walk into.
An idea I read here that really like is that drifters are the ones that build cysts, and cysts can also make additional drifters...cutting the delay of bringing in a drifter all the way from the hive to the front lines. Something I'd add to this is that cysts become the prerequisite for all buildings (exception maybe the hive and harvester). So Drifter>Cyst>Building. Now this may seem like an additional pain in the ass, and it could be in the beginning (though khams are not doing much in the beginning anyway) but it could actually speed things up in mid and late game (right when the kham needs to focus on other things). In mid to late game, a kham will have placed cysts all over the place already. If he wants to build a whip, all he has to do is click on a cyst and choose whip..instead of making a drifter and bringing it to where he needs it (hoping it doesn't die along the way). This makes initial cyst placement very important for the kham, because now he has to consider in the future that cyst might have to turn into a crag or shift.
The cosmic gardener concept does capture my imagination and makes me dork out, but its not there yet in game. But its getting there.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
All that's needed is the marker alone. Do marines get rewarded with PRes for following orders?
hive generates drifters non stop (up to certain limit)
drifters can become cysts or buildings
no hive energy
(can add other fun things like drifters spreads infestation as it moves around.. and hence, when it becomes a cyst, there will already be infestation around it instead of a cyst/infestation appearing from no where)
and then, to make it more easier for commanders to control drifters, allow them to set waypoints, etc (ie, select 4 drifters, shift click 4 'cyst' placement points, and they work out the rest themselves)
and while we're here, allow drifters to have other abilities as well so they are similar in usefulness as a mac.
more random thoughts
allow buildings to 'devolve' back into a drifter - giving back tome team-res along the way
(Essentially aliens version of recycling)
they really should. it couldnt hurt.
in it's current implementation the only time i see really effective commanding from marines is when the comm is constantly on the mic scolding a player who wont follow his strat.
with armory in it's current state (comm not being the weapons holder) there should be more incentive to the average pub player, and a way to contribute to being a good team player other than personal kills and being the<u><b> LAST</b></u> one to press E on a structure.
(on that note: devs, could players who assist in building a structure of at least X percentage of completion get some form of res? even a .5 would be nice. currently the one who gets that 5 res is the one who finishes the build first due to the random timing of it, or because he just finished off the last 2% etc.)
One of the biggest problems the NS1 was that you could rarely tell what exactly the commander had intented and whether you should react to the waypoint. Sometimes they were misclicks, sometimes scouting probes, sometimes waypoints intented for someone else and sometimes old outdated commands. In general I ended up taking in huge amounts of information from the game HUD, but still found myself missing waypoint information even if I wasn't ignoring it on purpose.
One of the biggest problems the NS1 was that you could rarely tell what exactly the commander had intented and whether you should react to the waypoint. Sometimes they were misclicks, sometimes scouting probes, sometimes waypoints intented for someone else and sometimes old outdated commands. In general I ended up taking in huge amounts of information from the game HUD, but still found myself missing waypoint information even if I wasn't ignoring it on purpose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is even bigger problem in ns2 because of the ridiculous autowaypoint system that gives you waypoints to defend, build and destroy entities in your vicinity. As a player you never know if commander really issued you an order if it was one those garbage orders generated by the game. And as a commander you will never know if your players still have the orders you gave to them or if the game has given them some garbage to do again.
This makes the waypoint to do more harm than they're good for. Thus using waypoints is almost impossible and microphone is the only way to go really. Everytime i use waypoint is have to verify it by using microphone and telling the player that i gave him an order and he should check the his waypoint.
Oh and the waypoint line being a tiny 1 pixel wide line doesn't help either. Nor the fact that you can't see the waypoint destination through the walls or in the minimap. So in fact you have no idea where the waypoint is, only thing you can do is to follow the tiny line.
I agree, first time I saw it I tought it was some light pouring in through cracks between surfaces.
Yeah haha! It looks exactly the same but little bit different color.
Should the khamm be as disconnected from the rest of his team as he is? While you can help organize the team, you don't strictly need them for anything other than killing marines, whereas the marine commander needs the guys on the ground to build everything...
Equally, the aliens don't really need much from the khamm other than a hive.
Certainly they can help each other with RTs and cysts etc, but they <i>feel </i>independent, so they'll act independent.